Gem-bearing citizens of Allanak.

[Rindan]

You guys we don't need a tavern.  Just use places that you already have.  There is an entire gemmed bazaar with tables, food, shade and many, many gemmed NPC's around that you can blend in with.  I've used that place for a lot of my gemmed interactions, it just takes a few more people going there regularly to hang out and it'll become a 'spot' for gemmed to gather.

It is true that there is the square.  The square has a few obvious draw backs.  The most obvious ones being that it is not a tavern, it is outside, and it gets dark.  Sitting in the square during a raging stand storm at night doesn't seem terribly IC to me.  A tavern works because you can be there any time of day in any sort of weather condition, and there are plenty of tables to sit down at.  The IC and the OOC beifits of a tavern make the square impractical.

There are IC reasons that a gemmed tavern doesn't exist.  There are IC reasons that there isn't many things regarding gemmed that some people might OOCly enjoy.

There might very well be IC reasons, but like I said, I was told a few years back that the reason was OOC.  Barring any super secret plots, I personally don't see an IC problem.  Gemmed are already herded into a single quarter.  They can already easily communicate and plan with each other.  The justification can't be that the templerate wants to keep gemmed from communicating and conjugating – it is already ICly done.  The only reason why it doesn't happen right now is for purely OOC reasons.  It is really hard for gemmed to casually meet gemmed on a completely OOC level.  ICly, if you want to talk to a fellow gemmed, just talk to the guy in the temple next to you, or anyone in the square.  The problem is purely OOC.

The reason people keep going to the 'normal guy' taverns is because they want to be involved in city affairs...

I completely disagree.  Most gemmed do not go to taverns to have anything to do with city affairs.  Hell, I can say with 100% certainty that my gemmed never went to the tavern to be involved with city affairs.  They go because they are OOCly bored to tears of the inside of their temple and want to at least SEE interaction, even if they can barely interact back.  True, some go because they have business, and this is of course fine.  Most though, they just want to see people from purely OOC reasons.  The IC avenues they have to see fellow gemmed are all OOCly boring.  As someone who has sat in the elementalist square for hours, I can say that I am sure my character was having a good time, but I certainly wasn't.  I solo emote all day in a temple, then go solo emote interaction.  It isn't terrible conducive to character development or improving one's RP style.

...but I'd prefer the gemmed act isolated as they are somewhat intended to be.

Gemmed are isolated, but not from each other.  They live with each other.  They are supposed to have a hard time interacting outside of the magiker quarters.  Inside of those quarters though, there isn't a reason in the world why they shouldn't have same sorts of interactions that everyone else has.  Being a gemmed doesn't make you're a hermit.  If you were really social before you got a gem slapped on, you will be social after you have a gem.  The only difference is that you have to be social with different people.  There are plenty of people ICly to talk to.  Being gemmed makes you an OOC hermit, not an IC hermit.  All I propose is that the OOC isolation of the gemmed be taken away.  Just give them a tavern and throw it on the boundary of the quarters such that other unsavory people with no place to go have a place too.  Kill two birds with one stone; dramatically improve the RP of your gemmed by giving them people to RP, and create a breeding ground for plots and intrigue.  What is there to lose?  Two less gemmed in the tavern RPing quietly sitting?

[Cenghiz]

Just one thing to notice.. There's actually one thing that may force a gemmer keep away from others... fear... Even though you do wicked stuff with shaking a hand and mumbling incomprehensible words, the other gemmers can, too.. You don't know what they can and you don't know what they will.
Though a gemmer would still be more open-minded, I don't like gemmers becoming friends in seconds right after seeing another with a gem.
Just my thoughts.

[Sholdyn]

Ok, but soldiers tend to hang with other soldiers, merchants with other merchants, hunters with other hunters.... etc.  It's about having something in common that you can talk about and share experiences over. No gemmed becomes insta-friends with other gemmed, but it's a good icebreaker.

[Larrath]

I'd just like to say that I agree with Cenghiz - the Elementalist's Quarter isn't a nice little village.  It is, in spite of looking nicer than many places in the city, still the pit where nearly all the gemmers live.
And not all gemmers are very nice or stable or sane people.  Some magickers can have trouble keeping their temper or power in check, and this makes them just dangerous to be around.

I'm not saying that gemmers shouldn't be friends with other gemmers, but it should take at least a while so that both gemmers can decide the other one isn't out to sacrifice their still-beating heart for some ritual.

After all, just because the superstitions aren't right about you doesn't mean they're not about other magickers.

[Rindan]

And not all gemmers are very nice or stable or sane people.  Some magickers can have trouble keeping their temper or power in check, and this makes them just dangerous to be around.

I'm not saying that gemmers shouldn't be friends with other gemmers, but it should take at least a while so that both gemmers can decide the other one isn't out to sacrifice their still-beating heart for some ritual.

After all, just because the superstitions aren't right about you doesn't mean they're not about other magickers.

I had a mercenary once.  He was a ruthless ass hole of a human.  He hurt people and picked fights simply because he liked hurting people.  He merrily sold people out without a second thought.  All of his friends?  They were all roughly as much of ruthless ass holes as he was.  Why would he makes friends with people he knows are like him?  Well, if for no other reason then that they understand him.  He never fully trusted them, but he would pick a few drunken mercenaries to sit down at the tavern with over a House aid or merchant, if for no other reason that he was too offensive for those people to tolerate.

Gemmed are sort of in the same boat.  Gemmed are offensive.  No one wants to be around them.  Now, fellow gemmed might not be terrible trusting of each other, but at least they are in the same boat.

Finally, not all gemmed are not crazy.  Gemmed are people.  They are normal people who one day had the rather traumatic experience of suddenly being social outcasts.  This might make them more prone to going nuts, but I imagine the vast majority of gemmed are just normal people who can also throw fireballs.  I imagine most gemmed have their family and friends suddenly shun them and they get locked into a ghetto.  Most people in such a situation would seek out people who have had a similar experience.

Whatever the case, if gemmed have the choice, they are going to prefer to associate with other gemmed in general.  They are going to pick other gemmed over your average commoner, because your average commoner would slit their throat if they ever thought they had the chance.  If another gemmed wants to punch your number, it is unlikely that is just out of paranoid hate.  Better to hang out with people that are far more likely to be completely indifferent of you then to sit in a tavern surrounded by people that would kill you without a second thought if they thought they could get away with it.

[Xygax]

Rindan's description of mercenary/mercenary and magicker/magicker "friendships" should be the norm for ALL relationships on Zalanthas.  You might hang out together, you might even have sex with one another, you might even call one another friends, but you almost never truly, truly trust each other.

And yes, the attraction is in finding people at least somewhat like yourself, either with respect to social status, or lifestyle, or magickal nature.

-- X

[JohnGalt]

Rindan's description of mercenary/mercenary and magicker/magicker "friendships" should be the norm for ALL relationships on Zalanthas.  You might hang out together, you might even have sex with one another, you might even call one another friends, but you almost never truly, truly trust each other.

And yes, the attraction is in finding people at least somewhat like yourself, either with respect to social status, or lifestyle, or magickal nature.

-- X

I agree with you here X, but I do believe exceptions should exist.  Not exceptions that occur overnight, or over a year, but eventually it should be possible to trust another living soul in Zalanthas.  I just wish people would realize this is such a rare occurance, that finding a steel dagger in the sand is a worthy analogy and roleplay accordingly.

[joyofdiscord]

You might hang out together, you might even have sex with one another, you might even call one another friends, but you almost never truly, truly trust each other.

I'll just briefly point out the obvious exceptions: elven tribemates, and a trusted companion of an elf (after a LONG, LONG time, and MANY tests).

[Larrath]

I doubt that there are many Zalanthans, even the nobles and the templars, that truly live their whole lives without trusting another living soul, even if it's just their favorite concubine or a gardener that they befriended.  And of course, trusting doesn't mean you have to tell them your secrets.
Finding trust in someone else isn't the unusual thing in Zalanthas - finding someone who actually deserves this trust is.

And now to Rindan's post.  Gemmed magickers are people, and a good portion of them is sane, stable and for the most-part normal.  There are still the exceptions - the people who think they need to sacrifice people, or just the demented killers, or whoever.  The problem is that a killer magicker attacking in an alley is a lot more dangerous than a mundane killer attacking in an alley.

The point I truly disagree with, though, is that the average gemmer would be more comfortable (or prefer to be) with another average gemmer instead of an average citizen, assuming that said citizen was capable of simply conversing with them and not blaming them for having a leak in their waterskin or their daughter getting raped.
In a nutshell, I think this is just similar to how a half-elf might decide he wants to hang out with humans or with elves.  Some gemmers would like to 'pass' as mundane people while others would try to group more with the other magickers.

Another confused post, but I'm tired.  Meh.

[Xygax]

A gemmed magicker doesn't have even the options of a half-elf with respect to his social circles.  The gem is the first thing people see when they look at you and the last thing people think of when they sidle away from you warily.  A gemmed magicker befriending a non-magickal citizen (or vice versa) would be rather rare...  and as I think about it, if I were a non-gemmed magicker in Allanak, gemmed magickers would be the last people I'd hang out with ("Hey, they guy hangs out with magickers a lot...  I wonder....?")

-- X

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'll just briefly point out the obvious exceptions: elven tribemates, and a trusted companion of an elf (after a LONG, LONG time, and MANY tests).

If your elven tribemate decides that stepping over your corpse and claiming the position that you once held is the best way to help the tribe, then they'd do it without blinking.  After all, if you aren't strong enough to remain in your place, then the tribe is better off without you anyway.

Elves are no exception at all.

Now, as for magickers, as Xygax pointed out, no one on Zalanthas is really safe trusting each other.  Every association is a risk, calculated or uncalculated.  Magickers are no more remarkable than any other, in that they might choose to take the risk of associating with a magicker despite the dangers of it.

I personally would like to see more commoners choose to take that risk as well.  Just because you fear something (or are expected to fear it) doesn't mean you can't relate with it in some way.

After all, a commoner is supposed to fear a templar, but oddly enough I see people joining the militia anyway.  Nobody rails on the GDB about how poorly played militia members are, being so twinkish that they would dare to allow their characters to gain personally from something that they are afraid of.

Magickers are not different from templars in that respect.  Just because you're afraid of a magicker, doesn't mean you can't allow your mind to wander to ways that a magicker might be able to help you.

Therefore I think that a tavern like the one Rindan describes would be a godsend for the game, giving magicker and commoner alike a valid opportunity to interact with magickers.

As for any comparisons regarding half-elves, let me state that magickers are nothing like half-elves (unless they are half-elves).  Unlike a half-elf, a magicker is perfectly capable of understanding that she will never be a normal member of society.

[Maybe42or54]

Besides, if you "befriend" a magicker, then they may be out to get you, or they may "Defend" you, or just "ignore" you when they go on a killing spree.

[joyofdiscord]

I'll just briefly point out the obvious exceptions: elven tribemates, and a trusted companion of an elf (after a LONG, LONG time, and MANY tests).

If your elven tribemate decides that stepping over your corpse and claiming the position that you once held is the best way to help the tribe, then they'd do it without blinking.  After all, if you aren't strong enough to remain in your place, then the tribe is better off without you anyway.

Elves are no exception at all.

HIJACK:

Elves are very, very different from humans, and you're basically claiming that they can behave exactly like humans, just twisting that behaviour into the terminology of elven tribalism.  NO, an elf is NOT going to hack down a tribemate just because he thinks he's stronger and could do better (for the sake of the tribe of course :roll: ).  No, just NO.

To be concise, just read elven racial roleplay.  Some choice bits:

Elves also naturally trust their tribemates...To act in a harmful way against a tribemate is an unthinkable act in an elven tribe...if one elf is seen to be acting in a way that harms the tribe as a whole, to be harmful to that individual (to protect the tribe) is absolutely warranted

Note that the last snippet in the above does not mean "Well, me as a sneaky elf that will step on anyone including my own tribemates, uhmm.. to protect my tribe... I think that my tribemate is a loser and I will take him out to replace him." An elf can be in trouble within his own tribe when the tribe as a whole sees him as harmful.  The kind of elf that would end up getting nailed by his own tribe would be the one whose mindset I illustrate above, the one who thinks he knows everything that is best for the tribe and will cause harm within the tribe in order to take control.  That kind of elf has already broken his ties with the tribe, internally at least.

Elves are NOT humans.  Elf tribes are NOT merchant houses or the Guild.    Elves are NOT social Darwinists.

[Larrath]

Half-elves were a bad choice of term on my part.

What I meant to say was that a magicker can be very blatant about being a magicker or he can try to pretend he's really just harmless or even powerless.
And also, a gemmer can choose to try and associate with gemmers and leave the regular people alone or he can do the opposite - after all, who wants to hang out with magickers all day long?
A gemmed magicker might try to convince people that he's just not that bad, or even offer incentives for people to be with him, be it information, gifts or threats.

I also agree that people being too friendly with magickers, or just friendly too quickly, should be looked at as suspicious.

About elves, it's not for one elf to decide that he's better than the other elf and murder him in order to take his position 'for the better of the tribe'.
First of all, the ones who'd decide that would usually be the tribe elders, so it would all be a lot more orderly - the last thing a tribe needs is to split into warring factions.  Secondly, an elven tribe will practically never kill one of its own members unless it was crucial for the tribe that the said member was dead.
The vast, vast vast majority of elves who failed at their job at doing X and were moved to do Y instead probably won't even be that bitter, because they're all dedicated to something bigger than themselves - the tribe.
A tribal human might deceive his entire tribe in order to get ahead, maybe, but for an elf that would be unthinkable.

Back to gemmers now - some magickers would rather be dead instead of talk to other magickers, while others see mundane people as inferior creatures unworthy of their attention.  I think that the norm is somewhere in the middle, with the average gemmer liking other magickers about as much as ordinary people.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That's all well and good, but I fail to see why it means there shouldn't be a tavern for magickers.

[Larrath]

That's all well and good, but I fail to see why it means there shouldn't be a tavern for magickers.

Come to think of it, a nice gritty, halfway-to-'rinth tavern in the Elementalist Quarter -could- be nice.  Put that in and take the Barrel out and that would be nice.
However, a potential problem is that some people might see that tavern and see magick as a more normal force.  The sense that I get is that there are too many people that would blink at the face of an Elkran casting right in front of their face.
I don't know how good cheap magick mushrooms and free pure water at pretty much limitless amounts would go to the game.

EDIT: Maybe just blow up the Barrel then.

[joyofdiscord]

I really like the idea of a shady/magicker crossover tavern.  It wouldn't replace the Barrel though.  The Barrel hosts a very specific and important crossover clientele in its own way.  It's not so scummy that a noble or merchant family member can't be comfortable there, and it's not so hoity-toity that your average commoner can't hang out, too.  That's important for plots and networking.  Where else will they go?  It's the Gaj or Traders, the two extremes that the Barrel balances.

Also, I bristle somewhat at the repeated assumption in this thread that rinthers don't have anyone to hang out with, and rinth taverns are dead.  They definitely aren't (or at least, they haven't been during my time playing rinthers).  The one downside, in my opinion, in this gemmer/shady sanctuary would be potentially drawing away from the REAL shady, rinth tavern action, in the same sort of way the Barrel seems to draw away from the Gaj, in my experience.

[mansa]

i'd love to see a force field that prevents people without wearing a gem from entering the tavern from the front.  ;)

[Ktavialt]

Rindan's description of mercenary/mercenary and magicker/magicker "friendships" should be the norm for ALL relationships on Zalanthas.  You might hang out together, you might even have sex with one another, you might even call one another friends, but you almost never truly, truly trust each other.

And yes, the attraction is in finding people at least somewhat like yourself, either with respect to social status, or lifestyle, or magickal nature.

-- X

Did I misread this or are you saying that ALL relationships of every type,
not just mercenary/mercenary, magicker/magicker relationships should be
like this? I mean, that's moving now from brutal, harsh Zalanthas to plain
Paranoia-land. I've had my share (quite a few) of characters who died
because they trusted someone they shouldn't have, however with those
characters that did do that I was meddling in things that were important
and I should have known better. It wasn't normal, everyday Zalanthan
life.

But directly the topic of magickers and trust, I love the idea of magickers
being mysterious and feared, even at least partially by other magickers.
However, I have met more friendly magickers than I have met friendly
non-magickers, just so damned often, and I don't think I'm getting fooled
by them and they're faking it either. Actually, come to think of it the ones
that I trusted and died for it as I mentioned above were all non-magickers.
I simply don't think the environment is exactly how the immortal staff of
Armageddon intends for it to be. I think that while there are definitely folks
who do an excellent job of playing how they are supposed to play, rather
than playing the exception (ie. tuluki that doesn't hate magickers), the
average joe will do otherwise. Some may hang around magickers because
they wanna see some action/something different, some may hang around
magickers because they have nifty tricks that can help them. People are
going to do what is reasonable OOCly sometime, even though the game
documentation say they should be acting in a different manner.

All the crap I've written above is just background as to why I'm throwing
out a couple of the following ideas as ways that the correct environment
can be procured on Zalanthas in relation to magickers:
1) Staff should from time to time sponsor roles for a cruel and/or crazy
magickers.
2) A past idea I posted regarding "silent casting" mostly of curse-type
spells, or otherwise making it so a magicker could actually curse someone
with the victim not knowing who cast it on him, should go in effect. I recall
the imm staff saying they were considering that sort of thing. A curse like
spell shouldn't show on your effects list, and may have effects like making
walking more difficult, making natural creatures/animals want to attack
you or your kank not want to be ridden by you, and so forth. There also
should be some uncertainty as to whether you're cursed or not - was it
bad luck or a magicker bastard?
3) Because of #2, magickers should be not allowed in certain places. I can
see someone going to the Barrel rather than the Gaj because "the Gaj lets
them types walk around there, don't wanna get all hocus pocus'd on".
4) The nature of magick itself should be adverse to non-magickers of their
kind's way of life. Maybe not in an extreme way, but enough to be a pain
in the ass. As example, Mr. Mage gets a dream where he's standing in the
middle of a sandstorm, arms spread open and being empowered. He then
creates a massive sandstorm all throughout Vrun Driath, creating an
environment that suits him, but pisses everyone else off, including other
magickers of different elements. (PS: I don't know if any magickers can
influence large-scale sandstorms, this is just a hypothetical example)

I'm not saying none of the above has ever been done, but I can say it
hasn't been done sufficiently enough to provide actual (not game doc)
justification for hating magickers. Things like the above may make the
average joe play the exception rather than the rule.

My two cents,
Ktavialt

[Rindan]

And now to Rindan's post.  Gemmed magickers are people, and a good portion of them is sane, stable and for the most-part normal.  There are still the exceptions - the people who think they need to sacrifice people, or just the demented killers, or whoever.  The problem is that a killer magicker attacking in an alley is a lot more dangerous than a mundane killer attacking in an alley.

I completely disagree.  For a gemmed, walking through the commoner quarters is a dozen times more risky then strolling through the elementalist quarters.  When you walk through the commoner quarters, you KNOW almost every single person that sees you would kill you without a second thought if they could.  Your average commoner is stupid, ignorant, and superstitious.  If the templerate were to disappear tomorrow, the elementalist would be fighting for their lives the very next day.  Hell, I imagine every single gemmed that makes his way through the crush in the commoner quarters is constantly paranoid of a knifing to the gut.  If a commoner slides a knife six inches into your gut, what are you going to do?  Throw a fireball at him and provoke the templerate to finish the job?

When a gemmed is walking through the gemmed quarters, it is very safe to say that the majority of the gemmed that he passes really don't give a shit if that gemmed lives or dies.  Are there crazy gemmed who might want you dead?  Maybe, but even if there is another gemmed randomly killing other gemmed, you are just one of many such targets, unlike in the commoner quarters where you are one target surrounded by literally countless people hostile to you.

The point I truly disagree with, though, is that the average gemmer would be more comfortable (or prefer to be) with another average gemmer instead of an average citizen, assuming that said citizen was capable of simply conversing with them and not blaming them for having a leak in their waterskin or their daughter getting raped[/b].
In a nutshell, I think this is just similar to how a half-elf might decide he wants to hang out with humans or with elves.  Some gemmers would like to 'pass' as mundane people while others would try to group more with the other magickers.

The simple fact of the matter is that your average commoner has nothing to say to a gemmed.  Period.  If a commoner is talking to a gemmed, it is a safe bet that 99% of the time, that commoner wants something.  If you have a tavern full of people, why in the hell would a commoner single out a random gemmed to talk to?  Might a gem prefer commoners to other gemmed if the commoner could be nice an accepting?  Maybe.  Are commoners going to be nice an accepting?  Hell no.  

As for the gemmed, if you are so paranoid for your life that you avoid other gemmed, why on earth would you walk through throngs of hostile people (most of which are armed) to sit in a place where everyone loathes your existence and couldn't even begin to understand you or the hardship you have suffered?  The risk of a random gemmed sacrificing you or what not is miniscule, and another gemmed is probably the best equipped to fight back.  On the other hand, the risk of being gutted in a tavern because if that little black stone around your neck is not so miniscule.

Gemmed are people.  The ability to throw fire balls does not suddenly make devoid of the desire to get drunk, get laid, and have friends.  The commoner quarters offers gemmed absolutely nothing in terms of living their lives.  If a commoner wants friends and lovers, the elementalist quarters are the only way to go.  Whatever fears your average gemmed has about his fellow gemmed, they are easily ignored due to the simple human desire to have human relationships.

[Anonymous]

For a gemmed, walking through the commoner quarters is a dozen times more risky then strolling through the elementalist quarters.

To me a magicker walking through the commoner quarters should feel as much fear as a lion trotting through a pack of sickly gazelle.

I guess it's a matter of perspective, though.  Think about how much more advanced we as a people were back during the Salem witch trials which was only a few hundred years ago or so.  And yet despite having so much more knowledge about the world around them than the average Zalanthan they had some bizarrely superstitious notions about what you had to do to kill a witch.

I really wish there was a lot less of this 'magickers bleed like everyone else' mindset and a lot more wild and unfounded speculation.

[Twilight]

Its both mindsets at work really, which is why it works.

A gemmed walking through the commoner quarters is walking through hostile territory.  Pretty much everyone there would like to gut the damn mage.  However, due to superstitions and yes, actual fact, of what a mage can do, only the particularly crazy would attempt something like that.  Of course, every once in awhile a mob forms, for whatever reason, and a magicker looses their life.  Not common probably, but not exceptionally uncommon.  So the magicker walking around should have quite a bit of fear.

A commoner watching that gemmed walking around is scared to death.  After all, magickers can cause widespread devestation, and its only really the templars who keep them on the lease.  You'd love to stick the damn magicker.  Only once in awhile, bad things happen around magickers, and lots of people die.  Maybe while mobbing a magicker, believe it or not.  So your commoner is scared, and should be.

Fear on both sides keeps the equilibrium.  Not some "in some theoretical way this could happen" way but in a very real "once in awhile, really bad shit goes down and people die" way.  And thats the perception on both sides.  And once in awhile, things go down wrong, and people die, on either side.  And that goes to show that the perception is indeed a correct one, and that you should be scared.  Magicker or mundane.

At least, thats my take on it.

[jstorrie]

I'd love to see bouncers saying 'Your kind ain't welcome here.'

[Bebop]

I haven't read most of the posts on this thread but here is my opinion:

Gemmers are supposed to be feared like Satan by most commoners as well as hated by Northies.  That's part of the roleplay, part of the challenge that comes along with getting uber superhuman powers.  I've noticed it too, alot of gemmers in the taverns which to me just isn't normal, 'gickers have become widely excepted it seems by PC's in Nak.  I guess maybe you could acredit it to Oashe's involvement and protection of the gemmers that serve them but even so, I would think that wouldn't suggest that people aren't still terrified of people that can call down the elements to destroy them, yeah?

[waroth]

I don't think they should be feared like Satan.  Not when a quarter of the city is set aside for them to live in, and you see them everyday as a commoner.  I would think them feared more like  a ex-con.  They could be nice and friendly, but you never know if they'll snap and kill you.  So you shun them when you can, and it's never good to try and piss one off.  Just my brief opinion.