Gem-bearing citizens of Allanak.

[joyofdiscord]

I don't think they should be feared like Satan.  Not when a quarter of the city is set aside for them to live in, and you see them everyday as a commoner.

They have their own quarter, and that's exactly why you really shouldn't see them everyday as a commoner.  Xygax has expressed a desire (possibly even in this thread, though I'm not going to look for it) to see the magickers more segregated, so you wouldn't see them except in unusual circumstances.  I don't think the PC population really reflects the VNPC population (even the exceptional VNPCs who are just like PCs except virtual) in this regard.

[Xygax]

"Feared like Satan" isn't a good way of expressing the distrust, growing into fear, growing into hatred that most commoners do have for magickers.  However, yes, I believe I have expressed a desire to see magickers more segregated, and I especially think that making the Elementalist's Quarter (which isn't, to be perfectly clear, 1/4 of the city...  it is a "quarter" in the "You live here, nowhere else" sense) more OOCly enjoyable and less ICly accessible will go a long way toward that end.  We're not there yet, and it will take time, but we'll get there.

In general, I find that my views largely agree with Rindan's, but I am not spearheading or overseeing any effort related to this issue.  Other staff will have to comment on things more relevant to them.

In the meantime, this discussion is a good one, and what you should generally be getting from it is that, in general, it isn't the natural, easy thing for random commoners and random magickers to befriend one another.  As someone else on this thread suggested, usually if a non-magicker is making nice with a gemmer, there is an ulterior motive involved.  Obviously, if someone is being nice to you, you should ICly ride it for all it's worth (unless you're an elf, elves don't ride :wink:), but this notion that you might be getting used should absolutely be considered a potential aspect of your roleplay.  As the non-magicker in the situation, you should be concerned that you might be getting hexed if things don't work out just so for the gemmer in question.  Nobody wants to be on the other end of the Vivaduan "shrinkage" curse.

-- X

[Anonymous]

You are wrong 'cause the population doesn't just revolve around PC's yeah maybe lots of PC's are magickers, but how many npc's vnpc's are magickers? not many I can think of, and theres about ten thousand times more Vnpcs than actual players, and not any of them are magickers.

Besides that I go for days with out seeing magickers, and there is more mundane PC's than there is Magickers or Karma required guilds.

[Forty Winks]

You are wrong 'cause the population doesn't just revolve around PC's yeah maybe lots of PC's are magickers, but how many npc's vnpc's are magickers? not many I can think of, and theres about ten thousand times more Vnpcs than actual players, and not any of them are magickers.

Besides that I go for days with out seeing magickers, and there is more mundane PC's than there is Magickers or Karma required guilds.

When talking about PC populations, it isn't very relavent to bring in the VNPC population to refute a position... :wink:  And I don't even think you're on the same page as Xygax.

Anyways, as it is currently, gemmed don't have much of a social life outside their quarter, and although there are places inside the quarters (such as the plaza) where mages can go, there isn't enough of a PC population to be a reliable and enjoyable place to reside. So, an option that is left is to go to low-life taverns such as the Gaj and hope to get some interaction. Yeah, all the situations that come up with gemmed vs. nongemmed interaction exists but at least you get to interact with other PCs. This is of course my own simple reasoning of the most likely reason why you might see a gemmed outside the quarters.

What to do about this I think is the real question.

[Ghost]

Anyways, as it is currently, gemmed don't have much of a social life outside their quarter, and although there are places inside the quarters (such as the plaza) where mages can go, there isn't enough of a PC population to be a reliable and enjoyable place to reside.

I think there is enough of a PC/NPC/vNPC population of gemmed to start a tavern for them.  Take Red Storm/Red Storm East:  I do believe there is enough of a PC population of gemmed to beat them, if not NPC/vNPC.  And those villages do have one tavern each in that sense.

I think it would be good to have such a tavern for magickers.

[Forty Winks]

I agree a tavern in the elementalist quarter wouldn't hurt, but I think 'tavern' implies a solid building with rentable rooms and entertainment. A simple sheltered gathering place such as a decent-sized tent with drinks and snacks would suite the purpose just as well IMO. The small plaza in the quarters would be a nice place to put it.  :wink:

[Angela Christine]

I'm against isolating the Gemmed, simply because I don't think the game needs another iso-clan.  If most of the Gemmed stayed in their quarter (except for quick jaunts through the streets to get to the bazaar or the gates) and most of the non-gemmed stay out of the quarter, then you wind up with a Gemmed mini-MUD that doesn't interact with the rest of the playerbase.

Mages are supposed to interact with non-mages.  There are spells that are clearly going to benefit other people more than they benefit the mage himself.  Ok, a group of various elementally inclined mages could form a sort of Superfriends and layer spells on eachother, but I don't see how this would be better than mages and non-mages working together.  Zalanthas doesn't need the X-men.



Angela Christine

[Ghost]

Yes AC.  But the tavern for mages would be something like some place to go when there is need for a mage.  I think that alone is a good enough idea for this.  Mages being unwanted in commoner tavern, and the same goes for a commoner in the mage tavern.  Yet, both parties go to the tavern reserved for the other population if there is need, and bear the tension.  Right now, gemmed are coming to Bard's barrel because they don't have a tavern in their own quarter.  Commoners might or might not harrass them, but seeing that magicker at the next table where you are sitting everyday is not going to encourage the "fear" or "uneasiness" that a commoner-mage should feel against each other.

[amoeba]

Having a gemmed tavern is all good and fine, but in practice people will go to wherever the PC crowd is.   There may be a number of gemmed now, but that won't be true forever.   When you see just one or two gemmed on at any given time, it's highly unlikely the "player" will choose to spend all thier free time just hanging with the npc/vnpc crowd.

As the playerbase grows, and yes I think it will grow in time, this will become more of a viable option. For now I see it simply as a neat idea. Sure implement it, but in practice it will be as crowded as the burrow in Tuluk is at most times.

[Rindan]

I'm against isolating the Gemmed, simply because I don't think the game needs another iso-clan.  If most of the Gemmed stayed in their quarter (except for quick jaunts through the streets to get to the bazaar or the gates) and most of the non-gemmed stay out of the quarter, then you wind up with a Gemmed mini-MUD that doesn't interact with the rest of the playerbase.

Mages are supposed to interact with non-mages.  There are spells that are clearly going to benefit other people more than they benefit the mage himself.  Ok, a group of various elementally inclined mages could form a sort of Superfriends and layer spells on eachother, but I don't see how this would be better than mages and non-mages working together.  Zalanthas doesn't need the X-men.

Personally, I think that the gemmed are already almost completely disconnected from the MUD.  Other then their interactions with noble houses, and by noble houses I mean Oash, gemmed live extremely isolated lives with minimal interaction.  The basic reason behind this is two fold.

First, gemmed can't talk about what they do in public.  It will start a lynch mob.  So, you basically have a guy who shows up the tavern and quietly sits there.  When the Byn are talking about their last job, the Kadian is talking about how hard he is working, the gemmed just sort of dully sits there.

Second, there is no place to build a foundation for commoner/gemmed interactions.  When you are in public, what you can realistically do with a gemmed is drastically limited.  If you start talking to a gemmed, even if it is just a casual friendly conversation, it looks extremely suspicious.  People are just too conscious of being seen with a gemmed – and rightfully so.  This makes getting in contact very hard, and it makes it even harder to make a proposition for the use of the gemmed's powers.  Not only do you have to make contact and figure out if the guy you are talking to is even of the right element, but then you need to some how drag him away to talk business.  If a mercenary captain starts talking to a Krathi about what he can do for an upcoming mission, he is risking setting off a lynch mob.

What gemmed and commoners need is a place that is gemmed territory.  They need a place where the two can meet, talk, and do it only for ears that don't care about the social stigma you are breaking.  Namely, they need a tavern on the edge of the elementalist quarters.  Such a place would not only give gemmed a place to actually interact with each other, but it would serve is an obvious and discrete place to contact gemmed about doing work.  With such a place, you drastically increase the likelihood of gemmed doing more then alternating between spending time in their temple and RPing how quietly they can sit in the tavern.

Gemmed are currently isolated.  This isn't doing anyone any good.  Putting in a tavern for them isn't going to isolate them more.  On the contrary, it will concentrate them, dramatically increase the amount of interaction they see, and make them easily accessible for those who wish to take advantage of their services.  Hell, if nothing else it might provoke more gemmed to keep playing as gemmed.  Perhaps it has changed, but the last time I played as a gemmed people appeared and vanished faster then a pile of Byn recruits walking along the shield wall in a sandstorm.  I can't imagine that they all managed to find an unlikely way to get killed.  People just got bored and ditched the role.  I would much rather see some long lived and powerful gemmed moving and shaking the world, then a constant stream of elementalist who don't branch their first power before giving up in frustration and boredom.

Besides, even if the tavern was a complete failure and it fulfilled your absolute lowest expectations, how much worse off would the MUD be?  I say, give it a try.  If it fails, eh, just have a crazy Krathi burn the place down.  Honestly though, I think it is going to have the exact opposite effect as what AC proposes.  I think it will dramatically INCREASE meaningful interactions between commoners and gemmed and lead to MORE plots between the two.

[Larrath]

I agree with Rindan.

Additionally, I will say this - it's not practical for a PC gemmer to never leave the Elementalist's Quarter simply because they will eventually have to buy food and water, or alternately kidnap some commoner's baby, in order to get their nutrition.

[Kalden]

Additionally, I will say this - it's not practical for a PC gemmer to never leave the Elementalist's Quarter simply because they will eventually have to buy food and water, or alternately kidnap some commoner's baby, in order to get their nutrition.

Both are available in the Quarter, I believe.

Other then their interactions with noble houses, and by noble houses I mean Oash, gemmed live extremely isolated lives with minimal interaction.

Doesn't the Templarate ever hire them?

If you start talking to a gemmed, even if it is just a casual friendly conversation, it looks extremely suspicious. People are just too conscious of being seen with a gemmed – and rightfully so.

Virtually, that might be the case. IG? The gemmed know how to party.

but it would serve is an obvious and discrete place to contact gemmed about doing work.

Is it even legal to hire gemmed to do work?

Gemmed are currently isolated.

See above. The regulars at the bars (the Gaj and the Bard's Barrel) are gemmed.

As the playerbase grows, and yes I think it will grow in time, this will become more of a viable option.

I think the playerbase will decrease. However, more of the existing players will have magicker karma. I'd say the standards for getting said karma are pretty low now.


All that said, I think a tavern in the Elementalist Quarter (on the edge) would be nice.

[Anonymous]

On top of the normal OOC problems with being a gemmed, it makes it worse when the templarate tells your gemmed that they are not allowed in the other taverns or around commoners upon pain of death.

Just for being gemmed.
(Yes it is IC which is fine but I think they have to take into consideration the OOC situation they just put your gemmed mage in.)

Now, there is almost no OOC enjoyment with what is already a pretty isolated role.  You are now restricted to leaving the city with a big flag on you that shows you are a magicker and being killed, staying in the quarter and have the wonderful joy of solo rp only, or break the rules laid down by the templar and die.

Whoopee!

I had enjoyment in the rp that put my pc in this situation but now OOC I'm thinking I may as well retire the character. *sigh* I'm so bummed out.

[A Gemmer Kank]

On top of the normal OOC problems with being a gemmed, it makes it worse when the templarate tells your gemmed that they are not allowed in the other taverns or around commoners upon pain of death.

Just for being gemmed.
(Yes it is IC which is fine but I think they have to take into consideration the OOC situation they just put your gemmed mage in.)

Now, there is almost no OOC enjoyment with what is already a pretty isolated role.  You are now restricted to leaving the city with a big flag on you that shows you are a magicker and being killed, staying in the quarter and have the wonderful joy of solo rp only, or break the rules laid down by the templar and die.

Whoopee!

I had enjoyment in the rp that put my pc in this situation but now OOC I'm thinking I may as well retire the character. *sigh* I'm so bummed out.

This is an IC issue that will quite probably be resolved - and feel free to try and contribute to it.  Being forced into a quarter isn't at all the same as being confined to your temple, especially right now when there more gemmers than tall, muscular men.
Feel free to kill, cheat, lie, bribe, seduce, coerce, kill, steal, strongarm and do anything else within IC reason for your character in order to remedy this situation.

Things look just fine for me, at least thus far, and if there are still problems then emailing the MUD account and/or Templarate staffers would be much more effective than taking it to the boards.

[Anonymous]

On top of the normal OOC problems with being a gemmed, it makes it worse when the templarate tells your gemmed that they are not allowed in the other taverns or around commoners upon pain of death.

Being a witness to that event I am pretty sure that the templarate did not say that you could not enter taverns. I'd say roll with this IC for now and see how things pan out.

[Cenghiz]

Additionally, I will say this - it's not practical for a PC gemmer to never leave the Elementalist's Quarter simply because they will eventually have to buy food and water, or alternately kidnap some commoner's baby, in order to get their nutrition.

Both are available in the Quarter, I believe.

No, food's not available.. Maybe it's just a bug - a NPC suddenly stopped selling the only food that gemmers could find-, but at least, good food's not available. I bugged the NPC just in case, but maybe he's not supposed to sell food any more.

And even if we have a working NPC selling food, it's.. eh.. Just one variety of food for the rich gemmer who works as a desert patrol for templerate and a part-time raider? I would love to see rukkians collecting donations for their temple in exchange of the food they create. So gemmers would have craftable food (they're craftable really well if you mix them with some materials from a grocery) and some solo-cooking sessions to spice up their usual 'emote arches his arms to sides and the reality bends'-type practice sessions. Also they would have less risk if they're caught hungry in the middle of a practice session, they would risk being whipped by moving with a magickal effect inside their quarters instead of risking death by walking right past Bard's.

[Anonymous]

I really have no idea what the fuck you just said.

Besides, selling food created by Rukkians is not applicable. If you have played one, you will understand what I mean without it being spoken.

[Cenghiz]

Why not? Yes I understand. Rukkians are more druidic.. But still your personality is something more than your magickal background. A rukkian may be a wicked fool who just likes spice and women and men or children or anything he can find in his bed and he may still cast 'mon un ruk.....' which kills anything in the room. Codewise it's possible - noone gives you mana just because you're druidic, it increases itself, the power leaks into you from Ruk and Krok - and ICly it's possible, as the magickal RPing guide says you're something more than your element and just because he may chant, the usual characteristics of the PC should not change. A gypsy vivaduan still tries to steal babies, remember?
To tell the truth, I don't like folks who play out especially gemmers as the prophets of the elements. Because of IC reasons which may be learned when you have a 'strong' elementalist who branches one of his most powerful spells with the help of a little bit of imm interaction -and I believe they like that animation anytime it's possible-, it's not very possible for a gemmer inside the city to be totally in rhyme with his/her element. We're speaking about gemmers, who have sacrificed some of their pride and most of their freedom just for safety and an easy life. Selling the gifts of Ruk should not be something uncommon, as selling gifts of Vivadu is common.
And if you're speaking about some feature of creating food, eh.. I said we may craft the food the rukkians sell. The ones who played a rukkian or who interacted with one will know that it's still possible to use a fruit they create for some fancy bread or cake. So a gemmer may decide to cook some fine cakes and bread for the dinner in his forced-solo-RP time to break the chain of boredom. As most may know, it's too hard to find fine fruits in Allanak, except one store which has limited supplies. So why not code one, when normally you would find 53 VNPC rukkians ready to sell some fruits to you?

[flame]I didn't like someone telling me "I don't know what the fuck you're speaking about.' If you did not understand, simply STFU instead of flaming or post like a civil person, anonymous flea store.[/flame]