PC Slaving - a good thing or as evil as lima beans?

[Driven]

Sounds like a good idea actually.

For the anti-slavery people. (Like me) It would be something interesting to do. If you catch my drift.

[Armaddict]

I'd be strongly in support of this.

I've been wanting to see this done for awhile.

[HardCarbon]

Whups, forgot to log in.  That was, in fact, me.  -Savak

I think the biggest down side is the amount of staff time this is going to chew up..espically if it only effects a small number of people.

 In coding time, in time spent watching things that could be better spent, and in tme dealing with the complaints.

[Larrath]

First of all, HardCarbon, this is going to affect just about the entire MUD.  This will rekindle the conflict between Allanak and Tuluk, and keep everyone on their toes.
People will be more careful of the slaving Houses - as they should be.
The T'zai Byn will be possibly brought into wider use, either in helping the slavers or in protecting a slavee or possibly even in keeping the slavers at bay.

I doubt there is -any- new code that will be needed for this.  Cages exist, wagons exist, cage-wagons exist, subdue exists and stun damage exists.  What more do we need?  I believe even shackles already exist, and lashings are also coded.  I'm not a staffer and don't know how things look like from their end, but I somehow doubt that watching an open-ended RPT and helping to support it would be a waste of time; and the players involved would also have a great experience.
I also don't see why you expect so many complaints.  Slavers are obviously going to be under serious scrutiny.  Expecting people who know that they are being watched to blatantly twink out is utterly silly.

[Seeker]

I had to think about this one a long time, and there have been some excellents posts.  A great discussion.

Final analysis for me:

It brings virtual into playable.
A good slaving mission would require some awesome RP.
Getting caught by a slaver crew would REALLY suck.

Scary, challenging, a solid bite in the ass?  Sounds like Armageddon.


Seeker

[Adhira]

If this venture goes through there will be no extra coding involved. As mentioned by other posters, all the tools a slaving group would need are already in game.

[Anonymous]

I'm worried about multiple enslaving of the same player's characters. So I make a d'elf, he's enslaved, I store him after a couple of days. Really wanted to play a d'elf so I make another one. It's enslaved a few days after I make him, I store him too. Twice in a row, and I still haven't had much chance to flesh out a d'elf character. So I try a third time, etc. etc. etc.

Is there some way to ensure that players have a chance to actually play out the role they created for themselves after one's already been enslaved and stored?

[Cenghiz]

It's the chubby red turkey's turn for the opinions I guess...

- "I don't want to be a slave": I can't accept this rejection. How many people would want to die? How many of them would want to get amputated? How many of us would want to spend 1.5 hours -if not more- in a dark room after failing a pickpocket check? This is a game and it has rules.

- "I play for my own fun.": Then go buy Diablo II. Here we're also responsible to entertain each other, too.

- "It would suck for me.": Right. I believe I will instantly wish up for storing right after one of my characters get enslaved. So store it. We all lose characters, right? I'm playing my 35th and it's only three years.

- "A slave chacter could be special apped already.": Yes. But we don't special app characters to be killed by defilers, raiders, or even scrabs. It's not a new role added, it's a new danger added for the MUD. We will not ask for it, we'll suck it up if it happens. And, let's get real. It's damn realistic. I hate it but it's realistic.

In the end; I wouldn't love it. I would rather hate it. But it's realistic and good for the environment. I believe a few of my characters will end in the arena or will turn to VNPC's getting stored. But heh, I accept the new danger being added. But just one thing, is such scene possible?

The skinny gemmer arrives from north, rushing into the tavern.

The skinny gemmer pushes through the crowd towards ~bar, approaching to the buff Borsail Sergeant.

The buff Borsail Sergeant looks at the skinny gemmer, eyes narrowed.

The skinny gemmer whispers something to the buff Borsail sergeant, voice hushed.

>listen on
You start trying to listen.

The buff Borsail sergeant whispers something to the skinny gemmer, eyebrows inclined.

>listen on
You start trying to listen.

>listen on
You are already listening.

Nodding, the skinny gemmer whispers to the buff Borsail Sergeant, in Sirihish:
    "Yes I'm sure, sire. Both were foreigners. Also no merchant House signs on their clothing. I had a really clear look."

After a moment of thought, the buff Borsail Sergeant rises from the cracked wooden bar.

>emote raises an eyebrow casting a stolen glance towards ~bar
The cute, F-me female raises an eyebrow casting a stolen glance towards the cracked, wooden bar.

The buff Borsail Sergeant rummages around the pockets of his wyvern-embloizaned greatcloak.

The buff Borsail Sergeant gets a pile of obsidian coins from his wyvern-embloizaned greatcloak

The buff Borsail Sergeant tosses a ragged pouch of coins to the skinny gemmer before rushing to the entrance, elbowing folks on his way.

The buff Borsail Sergeant gives the skinny gemmer some coins.

With hasty strides, the buff Borsail Sergeant runs north.

.....

You think such role would be accepted by a Borsail Sergeant?

[Anonymous]

I'm worried about multiple enslaving of the same player's characters. So I make a d'elf, he's enslaved, I store him after a couple of days. Really wanted to play a d'elf so I make another one. It's enslaved a few days after I make him, I store him too. Twice in a row, and I still haven't had much chance to flesh out a d'elf character. So I try a third time, etc. etc. etc.

Is there some way to ensure that players have a chance to actually play out the role they created for themselves after one's already been enslaved and stored?

Substitute 'enslaved' with 'killed by raiders' if there was a group of PC raiders out there and you could experience the same thing.  Back when the black moon raiders were active I had three characters in a row affected by them, one dead, one raided and one a member.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Staff, do it.

Do it.

[HardCarbon]

I'm worried about multiple enslaving of the same player's characters. So I make a d'elf, he's enslaved, I store him after a couple of days. Really wanted to play a d'elf so I make another one. It's enslaved a few days after I make him, I store him too. Twice in a row, and I still haven't had much chance to flesh out a d'elf character. So I try a third time, etc. etc. etc.

Is there some way to ensure that players have a chance to actually play out the role they created for themselves after one's already been enslaved and stored?

Substitute 'enslaved' with 'killed by raiders' if there was a group of PC raiders out there and you could experience the same thing.  Back when the black moon raiders were active I had three characters in a row affected by them, one dead, one raided and one a member.

 Most PC raiders didn't have the resources of a noble house behind them..

Also.. what will this do to the balance between feuding houses?

[Anonymous]

Most PC raiders didn't have the resources of a noble house behind them..

The 'resources' of a noble house seemed to have little effect in the sands, especially considering how prolific the Blackmoon was.  The point is that raiders and tribes have always had the ability to ruin a PC's day, and this shouldn't be viewed as any different especially because there are several 'outs' for the PC in question.

In the end, to me, there's little difference between being killed by raiders or dying in the arena.  So I don't understand what people are so upset by.

[Ghost]

And besides..

Giving 300 or 500 or having a friend getting you out is REALLY a very easy and cheap way of saving the PC.

Bring it on.

[Linedel]

The 'resources' of a noble house seemed to have little effect in the sands, especially considering how prolific the Blackmoon was. The point is that raiders and tribes have always had the ability to ruin a PC's day, and this shouldn't be viewed as any different especially because there are several 'outs' for the PC in question.

In the end, to me, there's little difference between being killed by raiders or dying in the arena. So I don't understand what people are so upset by.

It does matter.  Black Moon, as a clan specifically built to screw people with staff support, was too twinkish to exist in its original form, and its members were outlaws in cities.  This is Black Moon on crack, with a license and legal standing.  (Yes, I did play a Black Moon under Kelvik, when he and most of the members were playing on PKmud.)

The mud needs to decide which way it's going, 'cause this is backwards.

All the "harsh" stuff people are posting sounds a lot like "Feh, screw roleplay, I want a text fragfest," which is what the game was at certain points in time.  I admit to having been part of the problem back then.

The staff should NOT support clans / roles whose primary purpose is to eliminate other characters.  Secondary goal, fine.  Primary, no.  It's poor GMing, as it encourages shallow character creation.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

All the "harsh" stuff people are posting sounds a lot like "Feh, screw roleplay, I want a text fragfest," which is what the game was at certain points in time.  I admit to having been part of the problem back then.

The staff should NOT support clans / roles whose primary purpose is to eliminate other characters.  Secondary goal, fine.  Primary, no.  It's poor GMing, as it encourages shallow character creation.

And yet, is it not true that those Houses are suffering because they can not roleplay their jobs properly?

The staff should not do what? You know, maybe we should bring back resurrections and stuff too. Ok, I'm sorry, and I understand your point. I would also hope that the Borsial and Winrothol life did not become a PK record, or enslavement record. But I am fairly certian that that will not happen, provide the correct Immortals have a hand in this entire thing.

[Anonymous]

All the "harsh" stuff people are posting sounds a lot like "Feh, screw roleplay, I want a text fragfest," which is what the game was at certain points in time.  I admit to having been part of the problem back then.

I'm going to take everyone else's arguments and reduce them to a basic element then express it in an absurd way to prove I'm right. :roll:

Look, certainly there were some issues with Blackmoon back in the day and even at the end of it's run it excersized more power over the sands than a group of a few hundred dudes should have.  But before we determine that this slaving operation would be a failure shouldn't we at least see how it pans out?  I'd be shocked to hear that there were no controls in place and that the staff wasn't watching closely.

And muls should really be pretty fucking worried about slavers and they just flat out aren't.  Red Storm shouldn't be a mul haven because on any given day someone might make the journey to Allanak to rat you out to Borsail and then lure your mul to them for a few hundred sid.

I just rolled a character that's a prime candidate for enslavement but I still think this should be given a chance.

[Revelations]

The staff should NOT support clans / roles whose primary purpose is to eliminate other characters.

Put it like that, and I can see what perspective you're coming from, and likely alot of other people. By allowing the slaving Houses to enslave PCs, it -would- likely end the PC's aspirations and so pretty much end that PC's life. And, I can see how dying to an NPC animal or whatnot, being not sponsored by the imms, would be better in some way...right?  :roll:

In my view, although the role might deal alot in so called "eliminating other characters", if it is done with roleplay first in mind, and allows the victim as well as the slavers to participate in an event that would not be possible currently -and- be exciting, then I don't have any quarrels with having my character's goals cut alittle short. It also allows me an option to either roll with the punch and play out the life of a slave for abit, which I feel could be a great roleplay experience. And, who knows, the life a slave might not be all that bad. If you are valuable as a slave and act properly, then you'll likely get positions of trust among the House of your masters, a role that might not be possible with a normal commoner. Also, you'll be exposed to the many great players of nobles and intense political situations that a lowly vagrant of the wilds wouldn't even dream of. So IMO, it wouldn't actually be an end to your character unless you want it that way. If the life of a slave is fletched out by the imms and players before such a system is undertaken, and it is done with enjoyment of the player of the slave in mind, then I'm sure it would be a fun role to "be forced upon".

And, if you have other ideas in your mind, you can just start over. Your character will die eventually, especially if you're one to be roaming in the wilds, and what is a better way to die than with the great roleplay of PCs? I would think it is more of a priveledge...but that's with my view.

[HardCarbon]

Most PC raiders didn't have the resources of a noble house behind them..

The 'resources' of a noble house seemed to have little effect in the sands, especially considering how prolific the Blackmoon was.  The point is that raiders and tribes have always had the ability to ruin a PC's day, and this shouldn't be viewed as any different especially because there are several 'outs' for the PC in question.

In the end, to me, there's little difference between being killed by raiders or dying in the arena.  So I don't understand what people are so upset by.

Hmm Lets see.. good armor and weapons, high end training facilities,  Bad ass NPC guards,  unlimited food and water,  better access to special apps PCs (like Muls),.....  your right  no help at all...

[HardCarbon]

If this venture goes through there will be no extra coding involved. As mentioned by other posters, all the tools a slaving group would need are already in game.

So If I find a slaver's wagon  and defeat whoever they left behind to guard it the code exsists for me to set it on fire and steal its draft mounts?

[Ghost]

Hmm Lets see.. good armor and weapons, high end training facilities, Bad ass NPC guards, unlimited food and water, better access to special apps PCs (like Muls),..... your right no help at all...

Just give your 300 sid dude.  Or get a couple of friends.  Or get to be a member of a clan/House.

If you don't have any of it, then hide and cover in the sands.

And if you can't do that too, sorry.  You need to play a more realistic char maybe?  Like a slave of that one.

[LoD]

There are (3) points that I would like to be considered when this notion is moving through Immortal channels for approval/implementation:

1. Every slaver should be a (P)layer (C)haracter.

NPC's that insert themselves into the world dynamic by taking an active role in anything other than a guiding/advisory position (i.e. Leaders of organizations, senior agents that provide direction, tribal chiefs/leaders)  drive me absolutely batty.  They do so because NPC's often are logged in when it's time to accomplish their task and, because Imms have time constraints, aren't played out as regular PC's .  PC's have to deal with the fact that they have lives outside of their job.  People angry with them can track them down at a tavern or catch them while they are vulnerable.

2. Slavers should carry every risk that raiders share.

Part of the fun/challenge of executing these PvP style encounters are the dangers and chances of failure.  It's also hard to learn how to lure people into your trap, and that aspect of the game is great.  I wouldn't want to see these operations carry any more security out in the desert than the number of PC's present would provide.  Hiring Byn to protect the slavers or bringing a fair amount of men would help use other organizations and make the experience fun for everyone.

3. Victims of enslavement should have RP ahead of them.

This is really one to think about before implementing anything.  If you are going to encourage and support a PC slaving operation, the first thing you need to do is come up with an RP environment for slaves that do choose to become slaves over storing.  I suppose you could make the case that these Houses are going after potential Arena warriors, but I'd like them to take on more responsibility than that.

Create a slave barracks.  Give the guards and officers of the House a real job to train, manage and take care of the slaves that their House captures on these slaving runs.  Provide RP for the characters, so that they can actually live out a life and do something (if vastly different from what they first wanted to do) besides die.

I realize there are built-in chances to escape, pay or be bought out of your status as a captured slave, but I think that if you're going to go through all of this trouble - you should really provide the game with an interesting, well thought out system for those slaves that want to accept the turn of fate and RP that out.

These captured slaves could be made to do physical labor, trained to sell to another buyer, trained and eventually sent to the Arena where perhaps they could win their freedom.  If I was captured and wasn't able to arrange any of the other "outs" provided, I'd want to have the choice of RPing out my life as a slave.  Rather than be instant dinner for some Arena creature, I'd love to have the chance to join a group of these "captured slaves" who fight in the Arenas and are given at least some kind of life in the interim.

If you aren't going to provide RP past the initial enslavement, then it's a shallow idea and really needs to be thought over before implementation.  There's a lot of cool stuff that could happen as a result of this setup, but there's just as much work to be done to ensure it's enjoyable on every side of the table.

-LoD

[Anonymous]

Hmm Lets see.. good armor and weapons, high end training facilities,  Bad ass NPC guards,  unlimited food and water,  better access to special apps PCs (like Muls),.....  your right  no help at all...

Good armor and weapons: Blackmoon was outfitted to the gills.
High end training facilities:  What does that even mean.
Bad Ass NPC guards: If PC slaving crews went around with NPC guards I'd have a real problem with that.
Unlimited food and water: Anyone capable of killing/beating a PC has the skills to have what is essentially unlimited food and water.  Kill that thing for food, kill your way to one of any number of water sources, free or otherwise.
Better access to special apps PCs: Bullshit.  I'd wager a guess that at least 75% of muls are put in as former slaves and not apped as slaves.  In my times with Borsail I played with 2-3 mul slaves over the course of a year or so.  Compare that with the dozens of free muls roaming the sands you can find in a similar timeframe.

The ultimate answer to this debate is the simple fact that the Blackmoon did rule the sands in spite of the existence of three very active Allanaki noble houses (Oash, Tor and Borsail) who all had better resources.  In the end those resources don't amount to much when it's time to go toe to toe with a PC whose skills are tested more often than a training regimine just by virtue of the lifestyle they lead.

[amoeba]

2. Slavers should carry every risk that raiders share.

Part of the fun/challenge of executing these PvP style encounters are the dangers and chances of failure.  It's also hard to learn how to lure people into your trap, and that aspect of the game is great.  I wouldn't want to see these operations carry any more security out in the desert than the number of PC's present would provide.  Hiring Byn to protect the slavers or bringing a fair amount of men would help use other organizations and make the experience fun for everyone.

In full agreement.

[HardCarbon]

Hmm Lets see.. good armor and weapons, high end training facilities, Bad ass NPC guards, unlimited food and water, better access to special apps PCs (like Muls),..... your right no help at all...

Just give your 300 sid dude.  Or get a couple of friends.  Or get to be a member of a clan/House.

If you don't have any of it, then hide and cover in the sands.

And if you can't do that too, sorry.  You need to play a more realistic char maybe?  Like a slave of that one.

Nice personal attack...


I could go to some of my old guilds who are board with their dull grapical gmes.. and bring em here for a couple months of fun.. but that would be crude..

Me.. I have something much nastier in mind..

[Ghost]

Nice personal attack...

I am sorry.

I just wanted to point out that it is not a one way dead end, if such a thing was put into action.  There are many ways to get out of it and all are well too reasonable.

I did not want to just make a personal offense, but I see it looks too much that way.  I apologize for it.