PC Slaving - a good thing or as evil as lima beans?

[Ender]

I really like this idea.

I would go as far as to say there needs to be more stuff like this that encourages PVP conflict.

[Manhattan]

Go to Abi'Lipah and enslave some damn skinnies.

[Jherlen]

A PC of mine was once taken aside and threatened with slavery, though he managed to bore his 'captors' into releasing him. I thought it was a great experience and one that really defined the character, and it happened when I was still a fairly new player to the game.

Yes, it will make things harder for independents. So what? Roll with it and have fun. You expect this game to be easy?

I'm with Larrath that paying a bribe to get off seems a little silly. I'd oocly hate to see the following situation happen:

Code Select Expand


The tall, muscular man is here, chopping wood.

The massive party of Borsail slavers has arrived from the west.

The Borsail slaver captain says to the tall, muscular man, in sirihish: "Raur! You are now our slave!"

The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish "You people again? This is the third time you've tried this! Here, have another 300 sid."

The tall, muscular man gives some coins to the Borsail slaver captain.

Disappointedly, the Borsail slaver captain says, in sirihish: "Oh. Well... have a nice day then, Amos."

The massive party of Borsail slavers rides west.


Obviously the above is meant to be slightly humorous, but I hope it illustrates a point.

All in all I'd have to say I like the idea.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Larrath wrote:

Can someone please explain to me why a small 'fine' paid to the slavers in order to consistently be released is a good idea?

I think it's realistic because the number of bribes the slavers would take would make up for the fact that each individual bribe is small in size. Sort of how bribes work for militiamen and Templars. I mean, to a Templar, that one hundred 'sids you offer them is chump change. But if they collect five of those tiny bribes in one day...
Or ten in a week...
Well, you get the picture.
As others have said, it'd add some of that fear and conflict we all love oh so much. Piss off the Kuracis, and you might have an "accident" the next time you walk into Luirs. Piss of Nenyuk, and you might find that you owed a few months more "rent" than you realized. Piss off the noble houses, and you'll have assassins and magickers breathing down your neck. And piss of the slaving houses, and you might end up spending your final moments appreciating just how much those gaj tentacles sting.
I like it.

[Cindrak]

I am for this, and in fact I think the proposal is even a little too lenient... get out of slavery for a "relatively inexpensive fee"?

[scene]

A company of slavers encounters a tribal elf in the middle of nowhere. The sergeant steps forward timidly: "Ah, er, pardon me, Mr. Elf."

Elf: "Hmm?"

Sergeant: "I say, don't suppose you'd care to come with us? You see, we're with the great house Borsail, and they're always on the lookout for fine specimens such as yourself."

Elf (suspiciously): "You mean you want to enslave me?"

Sergeant: "Ha ha, no, not enslave you... 'enslavement' is such a harsh term. We prefer to call it a 'non-optional, unpaid gladiatorial internship.'"

Elf: "Sounds like slavery to me."

Sergeant (continuing obliviously and with great enthusiasm): "Through our program you'll gain valuable work experience and become an upstanding member of society. Well, not really a full member. Sort of a junior member, if you will. It's a very prestigious honor, to be a sla... to be an unpaid gladiatorial intern."

Elf: "Get away from me, round-ear."

Sergeant (crestfallen): "No? Oh well. How about three small then, huh? Help me out here."

[/scene]

Anyway, it's a good idea. I only wish I could've captured some PC slaves while I was in Borsail. :x

-Cindrak

Edit: Uh, yeah, this post is basically identical (complete with satirical sketch) to Jherlen's above. I probably should've read the thread in more detail before posting. *sigh*

[Bestatte]

The basic premise is "realistic" for the genre, but I just don't see how it would fly. I can see cries of "favoritism" running rampant over this. Hunter Joe gets robbed by an elf, and an hour later the slavers come by. Joe doesn't have the sids to pay them off, and loses his character. And then he accuses the elf's player and the slavers of being set up by the IMMs because they don't like him, or they caught him twinking, or his main description sucked, or whatever.

It wouldn't matter if the whole thing was totally legit. It would result in some pretty bad press.

Then there's the matter of noble house aides and guards. What's good for the goose should be even better for the gander. Why enslave some nobody chopping wood for sids, when you can enslave a Borsail aide who already has been through the Atrium, learned how to behave, has proven that they're capable of obeying orders, and just needs to be brainwashed to do the same for their new Winrothol masters?

I don't think elves would be "enslavable" because they're just not trustworthy and you'd end up breaking their bodies before they let you steal their minds. Not worth the effort. Dwarves and humans, totally - because the "ultimate slave" is a mul, afterall.

But then you have to consider what, exactly, you're gonna DO with those slaves if their players choose to go along with it? Are you going to force them to do nothing but mudsex or fade to black regular sex sessions just in hopes of spawning that mul baby? And if the player comes out with "My character is infertile" what then?

Enslaving someone against their will, to me, is akin to graphic sex/rape and torture. It should come with a consent rule. And if the player refuses to consent, there goes all the fun roleplay, the whole point, really, of the experiment.

For these reasons, I don't like the idea at all.

[HardCarbon]

Before you all PANIC, this is just an idea we are batting around and are looking to see if it is something the players would like to see.

So, my question to you all is:

How do you feel about the idea of PC slavers occasionally going after PC targets?  

I think the special apps characters who would in charge of such operations (templars and nobles more so then merchants) already abuse the crap out of characters as it is.. I don't really think they need even more power... so I'd say no.

Those people interested in playing a slave role can easily apply for one.. even one taken by a slaver..  People have little enough trouble inventing ideas to kill other PCs.

"5) PC slavers would only attempt to capture characters not wearing the livery of any merchant or noble house. "

    Ohh I see a market for black market livery

Also.. given the rules... just how many targets are there going to be?
 Outside a city,  not in a merchant house,  worth bothering taking??  What one character in ten?   less once the slavers get their act together?  So maybe five targets?  So say 6 slavers total.. bag limit of 2 a week..  How long before they run out of players willing to play a target?

Just a note - this would be closely monitored in a variety of ways and there would be very little opportunity for the slavers to twink, if implemented.

  ::cough::  Of course the players will try to flex the rules in their favors.. they might lose their slaver.. but they'll have the satisfaction of having ruined another person's character...  which will be many of the sort attracted to this.



=======================================
Personally I think the constant drain on staff resourses (time and coding effort) isn't worth what it might add to the game for a few griefers.

[moab]

This would work _only_ if citizenship of the slave's home city were considered.

Why would a commoner with due citizenship in Allanak have to fear being whomped on by Borsail slavers?  Winrothol, maybe, but not Borsail.

Otherwise the concept of citizenship blows harshly - only useful for keeping you from getting gang-banged by mobs in town.

Capture of pcs as slaves is a good idea - but only in regard to non-humans / non-citizens.  An elf in the desert is fair game (as is any Mul, obviously) but a human obsidian miner shouldn't have to worry about getting taken in by a house that resides in the same city as he does.

[ale six]

I do think it'd be a little too easy if Borsail could ride out and harass obsidian miners, or Winrothol harass lumberjacks, by threatening them with slavery. Picking on honest, upstanding (human) citizens performing gathering duties for your own city seems like a good way to make everyone hate your House fairly quickly.

Anybody else? Sure, enslave 'em. I think it has the potential for a lot of good fun. Lots of players might go down fighting, others would have to try and plot their escape, some few might actually just run with being a slave and enjoy it. Well behaved slaves are well fed and well treated, in some cases it might even be an upgrade on the life a commoner PC is living. Not all captured PCs would end up as pleasure slaves (I imagine few would, the f-me's like to stay in the cities in bed), but I bet a lot of them would make good grunts, gladiators, and labor slaves, which are always in high demand (after all, isn't that what all the privates/cadets/recruits in Houses are anyway?   )

Another cool thing about having PC slaves is that the slaving Houses would have real, marketable PC slaves that they can sell to other PCs. This would bring out the 'business' side of these houses - marketing and selling all the slaves they take - in a way that I don't think is currently done. Imagine the opportunities for plots and roleplay opened up here.

Anyway, yeah, really really like this idea.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

I'm all for the enslaving aspect.  


But.


What are you going to do with me once you have me?   Let us say that I'm playing an indie PC, intentionally avoiding clans because I'm disenchanted with a bad run of PC leaders.  I get enslaved.   Yippie, that was a fun episode.  Now what?  

Do I spend my days and nights sitting in a cage?  Stuck in a 4x4 pen?  Is my PC now at the whim of the log-in times and creativity of some other PC?  What if whoever buys me gets bored with the novelty of having a PC slave and quits logging on?  Quits giving me. . um. . I don't know, rooms to sweep?

Being that this is a game, my question is how will forced slavery enhance the game, be fun for the poor sap caught in the trap?

Right now you can choose to play a slave (I think?) and in choosing are made well aware of the limitations of that role.   I shudder to think of being forced into that role.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Bess and Sandstorm, think about this. What is the difference between dying because you ran into the wrong Templar or into the wrong nest of gaj, and storing your character because you were enslaved? If you don't want to play it, you don't have to.

I am pretty sure this will go into the game, at least on a trial basis. My opinion? Fuck the trial. Implement it permanantly.

I think 300  sid per slaver would be a reasonable fee. That, of course, could be a little more difficult, but hey. Additionally....

....in regards to owning a slave and making that slave's life enjoyable, here are some ideas for you. These are, of course, sadly under the restriction of the various House rules.

For non-combative slaves:
1. ALL or MANY errands, from running into the next room to snatch your slippers, to going to the market to pick up your cloak and dagger.
2. Some select slaves (perhaps those who have OOCly expressed a desire to remain in the game as a slave), could be taught to read and write so that they can dictate the PC nobles' life experiences into books, thus having them add to the literature in the game.
3. Have them attend to administrative duties, from organizing food for all the soldiers, or all the aides, or just for the nobles, to making sure that the latest and most exotic styles are kept abreast of.
4. Trained sluts! Hell yes. Wait, we have those....
5. There are likely a great many more, but as I am typically a combative character....

...this is a list of things for a combative character to do.
1. Train Leaders. If slavery is conducted correctly, the model slave's life should often be better than independence. Once that slave has become docile to his condition, he can be allotted a little more freedom.
2. Gladiators are musts. That slave should be allowed to go out into the city wearing only a shirt and trousers or a dress, and collar, and he should be treated as a rap star or movie star is now. Any person, free or slave, who lives for the Arena should be a star, by the way. The guards at the gate should not allow him to pass, perhaps even dragging him back to his compound or jail for even trying, and weapons and clothing merchants should sell him nothing. Food merchants should be the only merchants who will allow a gladiator slave to buy anything.
3. Indoctrinate them. A slave who is trained day in and out (and I don't mean sparring, either. I mean everything dealing with combat, from tactics to philosophy) will make an excellent leader.
4. Serve as Soldiers in the Nakki Legion (or whatever it is). Textually, most of those soldiers -are- slaves.
5. A few things for soldier-types is included above, but there's more.

Lastly, I really think that if they escape, they deserve to escape. I'd have no problem if you couldn't start out a mul, for instance, in any other manner than through slavery (and I love muls more than anyone else who plays this game does, so I don't wanna hear nothing about anything). You should have to escape ICly.

The Arena needs to become a greater portion of entertainment for both Cities. Shit, draft an IMM who most deals with Arena organization alone. Let vendors come, etc, and make it a real part of the game. And Gladiators should be fucking celebraties.

EDIT: Auctions! Auctions! Very nessessary! Auctions! And let folks buy slaves as long as those slaves are not too dangerous. This can forgo that "contact your friends stuff, Niona", because your friends -could- buy you back, maybe, provided they can beat the bidding organization. And really, who the fuck would buy their friend back? Not many folks. "Captured? Heh. Sorry. Ass out. I got mouths to feed."

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

Bess and Sandstorm, think about this. What is the difference between dying because you ran into the wrong Templar or into the wrong nest of gaj, and storing your character because you were enslaved? If you don't want to play it, you don't have to.

I don't think they're putting this forward as a fancy way to remove characters from the game.   I do want to play, that's why I made my character - with my goals, my intentions, my choices.  If someone is going to kill me, that is just fine with me.  I've never complained when that has happened in the past, I don't intend to complain now.

But what they are suggesting is to turn a character into a slave.  When that happens, someone is imposing their goals, intentions, and choices onto my PC.   I'm now removed from being the master of my character's destiny.  If someone is going to do that, then they need to be responsible for having a playable option other than "store your PC now! hahahaha Lolz!"   Otherwise why do it?   Otherwise, how does it contribute to the game?  

Keep in mind that if you want to play a slave, we currently have that option.  But, hell, we don't even force our slave races to begin the game enslaved.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Understood, and I agree. I had originally wrote the statement for Bess, but added you to it at the last. In any case, my post offers some perks for being slaved, some interactive qualities that can and should be expanded on.

[HardCarbon]

Understood, and I agree. I had originally wrote the statement for Bess, but added you to it at the last. In any case, my post offers some perks for being slaved, some interactive qualities that can and should be expanded on.

IF I   WANT  to lay a slave I will apply for it... till then it is nothing more then another way to have a character get lost while giving some kack-fecking griefer his jollies.

[Naiona]

I don't think they're putting this forward as a fancy way to remove characters from the game.   I do want to play, that's why I made my character - with my goals, my intentions, my choices.  If someone is going to kill me, that is just fine with me.  I've never complained when that has happened in the past, I don't intend to complain now.

But what they are suggesting is to turn a character into a slave.  When that happens, someone is imposing their goals, intentions, and choices onto my PC.  

I thought I was clear on this, but I'll say it again:

We are expecting few if -any- PC slaves to come out of this. No one will be forced under any circumstances to play a slave.  You might lose a character, but no one will be forced to play out slavery in game.

There will be so many ways for the player of a PC to escape playing a slave, from bribery to the arena to storing, that it will be a very rare exception if we do this, rather then the norm.

[Anael]

Sounds like a whole lot of fun to me.
Life's danegrous. If you can't live with the possibility of your PC dying to misunderstanding, random raider attack or just plain old 'you attempt to climb, but slip', why do you bother playing? This is just another way to make your PC's life a hell.

5) PC slavers would only attempt to capture characters not wearing the livery of any merchant or noble house.

A Borsail officer to his slavehunting squad: "See! A lonely Winrothol, out in the scrubs! Get him, lads!"

[Bestatte]

But Naiona, if it's "in character" for your character to actually agree to become enslaved, then the "slavers" need to be prepared for that actuality. What's to guarantee that the slaver won't get killed after locking you up in a cage, and leaving you to just sit there bored out of your gourd until you die of thirst of end up having to wish up for an IMM to slay you?

I don't think there's much fun in that, and it would result in ALL the players building into their backgrounds that they'd rather die than live as a slave.

And in a game where slavery is better than death, I think the -potential- for it to detract from the RP, rather than add to it, overweighs the -potential- for fun.

[Anael]

Considering we're (as far as I understand) basically talking about Borsail and Winrothol - both being player clans with Imms' backing - I wouldn' worry about that. The chance of all clan leaders dying at once -and- Imms being too busy to help seems too low to me.
And I am saying that as an off-peak player of a clanned PC, who hypothetically should have troubles reaching his superiors. Communication is the key, and storing is always a way in such a situation (even though I personally dislike it).

[Larrath]

I'm sure that if the slavers get killed and you get stuck alone in the cage, you'll be able to destroy the cage from the inside and eventually get away, or call for help and get released.
Even if you were a slave owned by Borsail and every single Borsail PC died, there are still the NPCs and you can still be sold.  No problem there.

And not all slavery is better than all freedom.  Captured labor slaves or the lowlier gladiators probably don't have such a stellar life, though it does beat the virtual 300-'sid-a-year commoners.

Seriously, I couldn't be more in favor of this, just as long as a slave owner was made to realize that they have a serious responsibility towards their slave's player.
One of my characters was enslaved back in my earlier days, and I had a great time with it all.

[HardCarbon]

I'm sure that if the slavers get killed and you get stuck alone in the cage, you'll be able to destroy the cage from the inside and eventually get away, or call for help and get released.
Even if you were a slave owned by Borsail and every single Borsail PC died, there are still the NPCs and you can still be sold.  No problem there.

And not all slavery is better than all freedom.  Captured labor slaves or the lowlier gladiators probably don't have such a stellar life, though it does beat the virtual 300-'sid-a-year commoners.

Seriously, I couldn't be more in favor of this, just as long as a slave owner was made to realize that they have a serious responsibility towards their slave's player.
One of my characters was enslaved back in my earlier days, and I had a great time with it all.

Just so long as you also code the ability to burn their facilites.. destroy their wagons.. and do other nasty nasty things..  Scrap up 1 large bounties for the ones in tuluk... For some (many folk) slavery is worse then death... and if your going to try and push it down our throats.. rather then use the perfectly functional system you already have.. well partisans have nasty tricks too.. acid in the face of a noble.. fired wagons.. grand theft.. massed crossbows..

 I can't really believe you are going to permit a background/(or even a guild) who specialized in ruining other characters...  Given the problems with special apps this definately isn't the time for this..

[Dracul]

I think she means that she is making a -system- so that a PC slaver won't die and leave you in a cage.

This is Borsail aftearall, so there would be more than one subordinate, npcs, employees. Etc. Naonia and the players running with her ideas would make sure that a character had rp even if they become a slave.

[My 2 sids]

I like the idea.  
Heck, merchant houses and noble houses who sponcer cadets/school people might tip off slavers who has recently left their employment.

I'd only say that if there are going to be PC slaves, there needs to be PC overseers.  They'd be the ones training the slaves, careing for the slaves, and selling the slaves (which means finding PCs with good players behind them).

[Jherlen]

Just so long as you also code the ability to burn their facilites.. destroy their wagons.. and do other nasty nasty things..  Scrap up 1 large bounties for the ones in tuluk... For some (many folk) slavery is worse then death... and if your going to try and push it down our throats.. rather then use the perfectly functional system you already have.. well partisans have nasty tricks too.. acid in the face of a noble.. fired wagons.. grand theft.. massed crossbows..

If one slave or partisan could accomplish this I imagine the staff would do it. To me it seems like it'd be far easier to capture some random independent in the scrub than to burn down a building, though.

I can't really believe you are going to permit a background/(or even a guild) who specialized in ruining other characters...  Given the problems with special apps this definately isn't the time for this..

All it seems like you'd need to enslave somebody is roleplaying and the subdue and possibly guard skills, and some kind of cage. All of which exist already. The policy and system is what's being debated more than new code, I think.

Just because you may have had a bad experience with a special apped character doesn't mean there are "problems" with special apps, does it? I also wouldn't go as far to say that the slavers would specialize in ruining characters any more than a raider, thief, evil sorceror, or hungry scrab would. It actually sounds like these pcs would be held to a higher standard and more restrictions.

Again, when roleplayed well in the right situations, being enslaved or being threatened with slavery can actually be -lots- of fun. Give it a chance before the cries of griefing and mistreatment are brought out oocly.

[Oxidised Lizard]

Being able to enslave PCs is a great idea.  :twisted:

[Marauder Moe]

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if this opinion has been stated.

Obviously, in some ways, capturing a PC as a slave is just as bad or worse than death.  A system like this would essentially permit and ENCOURAGE Borsail/Winrothol clannies to go out once a week or however often and randomly PK some poor guy mining obsidian.  I understand Blackwing was closed because it became a clan oriented around random PKing.

That said, if PC these hypothetical slavers were watched CAREFULLY and it was made sure that they RP appropriately with the victims, maybe it could work.  Personally, I'm skeptical, but glad this is open for player discussion.