PC Slaving - a good thing or as evil as lima beans?

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

I don't think they're putting this forward as a fancy way to remove characters from the game.   I do want to play, that's why I made my character - with my goals, my intentions, my choices.  If someone is going to kill me, that is just fine with me.  I've never complained when that has happened in the past, I don't intend to complain now.

But what they are suggesting is to turn a character into a slave.  When that happens, someone is imposing their goals, intentions, and choices onto my PC.  

I thought I was clear on this, but I'll say it again:

We are expecting few if -any- PC slaves to come out of this. No one will be forced under any circumstances to play a slave.  You might lose a character, but no one will be forced to play out slavery in game.

There will be so many ways for the player of a PC to escape playing a slave, from bribery to the arena to storing, that it will be a very rare exception if we do this, rather then the norm.

Oh, you were very clear.   But, if even one single solitary PC is forced into slavery because of this idea - then my point is still valid.   If only NPCs are going to be pressed into slavery, they why ask the players at all?  This is a fun thing, but whoever is in the business of forcing PCs (even few - if any) into a role out of the player's control and other than the player's intended direction - then the responsibility is on the slaver to come up with a valid, enriching playing experience that adds to instead of detracts from the game.  Otherwise why bother?   Why not just load up a hunting party of gith and track indies down?

[My 2 sids]

Maybe we could test this idea for a bit?  Anyone interested in helping with the test could create either a slave (recently captured) or a slaver.  This way we know the players wouldn't mind being captured.  It would also give more credible feedback on if this idea should become implemented.    

Create a temporary camp and surrounding area (a few rooms) out in the desert.  It would provide enough space to see how people can role play the capture of a slave.  Plus, a slaver's camp and training ground to see how PCs react once captured.  The slavers could even bring them back to the cities to be sold.

[Ghost]

I see nothing wrong with it.

It sounds all too Zalanthish.  I like it.

If someone does not like his/her pc being enslaved, they can consider the critter as similar to the death of the character and store.  After all, scrabs kill people, but we don't take them off the game because they are killing people, right?

[Linedel]

In other news:

Old school Black Moon to be re-opened.

Random death traps just outside the city gates.

Stormslayer to be reincarnated to terrorize all.


If the intent is to cycle characters faster, options 1 and 3 above have more style.  At least they're outlaws, and have to watch their own backs while messing with players.  People can handle that. Staff sanctioned PKing (which is effectively what this is if you expect nobody to play the characters) is stupid if you're trying to encourage people to write up character histories before playing...  You've already got too many people playing materialistically, now you're going to put things in to force them to hoard obsidian or "die"?  They get a black flag if they over-hunt to get the 'sid to not be captured, or they lose a character?  Not great choices.  This is either just going to piss people off or destroy independant roleplay.

[Maybe42or54]

Why would a slaver take a bribe from you?
They can tie you up, take the money anyway, unless it is a damn good price that is in your bank account.
Do they really want to walk you through the town to the bank?
Why wouldn't Nenyuk see the chains and say "Oh you withdrew your 180 large yesterday, sir. Don't you remember? We don't have it anymore. So fuck off."

I've had a bynner I have wanted to be enslaved as a gladiator, but none of the pcs would go for it. Seriously, they would live the high life.

[jmordetsky]

Whats wrong with NPC slaving?

[JollyGreenGiant]

Lima beans are totally evil.

I'd be ok with PC slaving as long as I don't have to eat lima beans.

[SpyGuy]

Some people will always be against this idea, I understand.  But Arm is harsh and slaving does exist, everywhere.  Just because it's almost 100% in the virtual environment doesn't mean there aren't Borsail slavers constantly going out and bringing back various monsters, raiders, tribals, etc. that they come across.  And since its a vastly important part of the game there isn't much justification not to have at least a trial.  I mean, Red Storm is a slave's sanctuary.  There's a reason why the "no slaving" rule down there is so unique.

There do need to be a few things looked at though, most have been brought up before but these are what I think are important:

PCs vs. NPCs - I think in most slaving raids npcs should be the focus.  But if you're out slaving gith in the tablelands and run across a lone delf, well he'll make good arena fodder too if he can't run to Blackwing or his tribe.  We even have tribal encampments now, what a great way to use them.

Citizenship - As many people have said slaving should be highly limited.  I would be seriously upset if my loyal citizen of Allanak who is out mining 'sid gets slaved because some PC slaver got bored.  But a few leagues up the north road if someone is resting from a hunt there should be little to stop the slavers.  The indy can buy there freedom or can die, playing an indy and roaming the wastes means living on the edge.

Bribing - I like the idea of a bribe.  It makes sense too that a tribal human would be able to claim good friendships with the great House Borsail, grovel a bit and hand over some coin.  Otherwise it means a fight for the slavers and danger, and untrained slaves aren't worth that much.  Stealing a woodcutter from Tuluk, however, should be a certain prize for a Borsail, at the worst it's Arena fodder to show pagan weakness.

Buying Freedom - Untrained slaves can't be that expensive.  An indy with friends or a decent bank account should be able to buy their own freedom.  Rememeber we're also a barter society, give up that nice 400 sid spear and maybe you might chip away at the fee.  I'd say that the max amount to sell off an untrained slave, even a northerner or delf, should only be about a large.  Slaves require food and water and training etc., might as well take the money and let them loose.

Twinking - If PCs are going to be slaved then they should be slaved by PCs.  If Borsail can't manage a run itself I assume the Byn could be hired.  But if some over anxious Wyvern Sergeant just ordered a HG mob to subdue me and throw me in a cage, no matter the level of RP, I'd be a little upset.  Slaving of both NPCs and PCs should be dangerous but incredibly rewarding and it will seriously cheapen the experience if NPCs are used/abused.

That's just where I'm coming from.  I'm liking this idea though and hoping to see it on a trial basis.

[Vox]

*veins bulging in his neck as he pulls back on the reins*

Wooooaaaah! To all the negativity and anti-slavery posts.

This is getting ridiculous, first of all Naiona is offering us an opportunity to chew on an idea that is rumbling through the heavens of Immortality.. She doesn't have to do that, and she's not asking for our permission. You don't like the idea, fine.. But the dislike is illustrating a systemic problem Arm has been suffering from for quite some time:

People not reacting intuitively to situations that occur to them. People believing that the plan they have laid forth for how their character will live and what they will do next is set in stone and should not be altered.

PC's shouldn't be forced into Slavery? Sandstorm... Bestatte... c'mon. What bothers me about that line of thinking is that it creates this list of things nobody should do to your character because -you- haven't planned for it in your copious vision of how your character's life is going to pan out.  You have dreams and aspirations for your character? Good.. but when in the many years of your life have you seen all of your plans come to fruition? We have to roll with the punches and deal with the hand life offers.  And if it's being enslaved, then Krath-Damnit! it's being enslaved. Be the best damn slave ever and realize that it's not GAME-OVER. The Imms know that slave-roles are sensitive and especially when concerning a forced enslavement. Man, I -want- to get enslaved just to add that new dimension to my character's personality.. because then there's always the possibility of escape. *gasp*.. or someone buying your freedom. *gasp* Or you having fun when you didn't expect to! *GASP GASP*

If you are Joe-Schmoe and you are hacking away at an obsidian deposit by yourself, you have made several choices... You have chosen to a) go out alone. b) expend your energy in the blazing sun and c) load yourself down with obsidian slag.  In short, you have chosen to make yourself the most viable target for any raider in a three-click radius. You should basically paint a target on your back and wear a slave collar to spare the slavers some extra work.

It's time people were held responsible for the choices they make.. and going outside the gates as a hunter, or as a gatherer is a choice that you must weigh for yourself. The element of Slavers simply adds to the environment, it takes nothing away.  It adds danger.. Will I be raided today? Will I be eaten by a silt horror? Will I be enslaved? That's awesome... keeps you on your toes.

If anything the idea of being able to ALWAYS buy your way out is such a carebear concept that it makes me cringe.

What REALLY bothers me is that someone would up and QUIT rather than play out the slavery.

This whole softening everything and asking for consent before RPing intense situations irritates me to no end.  But for the carebears in the audience if things need to be softened, perhaps slavery doesn't have to be forever... There can be terms of slavery.

What if it were for an IC month? Or two? Heck what if it were just a year?

I hate the idea of people assuming they can just buy their way out and we shouldn't have to couch Slavery with "well they're only usig foam whips, and your safe word is "blueberry" so if it's too much just use your safe word and we'll stop, oh and if you have 50 coins we'll just look the other way"

So much for harsh desert world.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I signed on for Roleplay and I signed on to interact with others and be interacted with... This isn't -MY- game, I don't get to make the rules of how things happen to my character... If I get my arm chopped off by some Templar, I'm not going to quit my character, I'm going to play that shit out and -pray- that the Imms are watching and enjoying the show.

We don't play this game for Karma, but in my opinion, rolling with those punches and showing that your sole concern isn't keeping your character alive no matter the RP cost.. that's how you get Karma.

But again, that's just my opinion..
Two thumbs up, Naiona.. way up.

[proxie]

Ooooh. I love the idea.

Couple things.

1) If this happens, then your buddies should be able to buy you as a slave. You're still a slave, which means you're the drink getter and latrine cleaning bitch, but they define your new duties as their slave, which could be very similar to your old routines. Or your enemy. Or a templar who's got designs on your body. Or the Salarri merchant who you politely turned down to be a weaponcrafter for but now he doesn't have to pay you for a while. Etc.

2) Bring Blackmoon back. With roving bands of slavers, then it makes sense to have a roving clan of anti-slavers. So your 25 day inde ranger is out in the wilds facing the Borsail legion of doom... You contact the buff mul who happens to be someone you helped when he was poisoned a month ago, and for a price, of course, he rallies the tribe and chases off those pansy assed noble guard wannabe's.

3) If you escape being enslaved through non twink escapism... the slavers shouldn't put more than one or two ranged weapons in your back. A flurry of thrown knives, arrows, and bolos... not overly cool if you're trying to run after you legitimately used a distraction or your desert skillz to gain an advantage and run. (Spam fleeing does not count, kids. There's gotta be a ratio of emotes to flees to qualify.)

4) Mercy. Bludgeoning weapons. Stun points. Don't harm the merchandise! Knock it out for dragging into the cage and city.

5) Perhaps slaves of this kind would be more indentured servants, not bred for their slavery, so they will work it off in a few IC years. There's no 'sid put into their bloodlines, afterall, unlike the house bred ones.


Okay, more than a couple. Hope this helps.

Proxie

[amoeba]

*veins bulging in his neck as he pulls back on the reins*

Wooooaaaah! To all the negativity and anti-slavery posts.

This is getting ridiculous, first of all Naiona is offering us an opportunity to chew on an idea that is rumbling through the heavens of Immortality.. She doesn't have to do that, and she's not asking for our permission. You don't like the idea, fine.. But the dislike is illustrating a systemic problem Arm has been suffering from for quite some time:

Before you all PANIC, this is just an idea we are batting around and are looking to see if it is something the players would like to see.

So, my question to you all is:

How do you feel about the idea of PC slavers occasionally going after PC targets?

Correct me if I am wrong but she asked for opinions (I'm sure you will).  Getting all the opinions out in an open discussion is a good thing.  You don't have to agree with them, but mocking them is less than steller and does not advance the discussion.

Back to point.  I am tentavly in favor of the idea. My concern is in the experience itself.  Essentially for most people this would be a character ending experience.  If you are going to sanction this as an official role, then the experience better be a damned good one.  That means only the best players as slavers and extreme IMM oversight.  A wham, bam your enslaved would do little good in my opinion.

[Revelations]

We are expecting few if -any- PC slaves to come out of this. No one will be forced under any circumstances to play a slave.

I don't get how some of you guys are missing this. If such a system is implemented, it won't affect a very large ratio of players, so stop with the arguement that slavery will affect the game in such a large portion. The only thing it will do to the playerbase on a noticeable scale would be the increase in apprehension and fear when in the desert, something that would be a welcome addition in my opinion.

Also, I don't get how becoming a slave is any worse than getting mauled by an NPC. If anything, becoming a slave is ten times more better than a death by a nonemoting, nonfeeling NPC (codewise). And, if slavery will open up as much roleplay opportunities as I'm hoping it will, then that'll double your enjoyment on top of that.

Just to make sure noone forgot it already:

We are expecting few if -any- PC slaves to come out of this. No one will be forced under any circumstances to play a slave.

[ashyom]

Keep it civil, people.  A couple posts were removed because they were flammatory.  If you'd like to re-post with constructive feedbacks on Naiona's idea and other players' as well, feel free to do so, but please don't target each others' ideas and comments in a way that's derogatory and aggravating.
Thanks
Ashyom

[Maybe42or54]

Well vox, I don't know about you. I play for -MY- enjoyement.

I don't play for my characters enjoyment, their friends, their job, etc.
If I didn't play for my enjoyement, I better be getting RL money for it.

If a slaving run isn't performed with fun in mind, and instead it is a test of who can stack subdue and flee the most, then I classify that under "Non enjoyable" and I go and get a second job.

If the slaving run happens to be a smash and grab and then I log in the next day to move rocks from here to there, it is classified as "non-enjoyable" and I go and get a third job.

Why play if I am going to be subjected to something that feels like RL slavery to me?

[Revelations]

Why play if I am going to be subjected to something that feels like RL slavery to me?

I can see where the negative seniment on this idea is coming from. I agree that if becoming a slave will deter your enjoyment of the game, then it should not be implemented for PCs to become slaves. So, if such a system were to be enacted, there would need to be solid foundation for slaves to work on. Here's a few things that I'd like to see:

:arrow: A doc or two on what being a slave means, different aspects of a slave's life, and options that slaves have. Likely a few more items that I can't come up with currently.
:arrow: A slave society (almost like a coded tribe) that would define slaves and set them in their own nitch in the Zalanthan culture.
:arrow: Options made available for different things slaves can do besides menial tasks or gladitorial labor.
:arrow: Going with the previous point, a manner in which slave PCs do not need to rely upon their PC masters for things to do. Likely some freedom in how a slave can be played.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

Sandstorm... Bestatte... c'mon. What bothers me about that line of thinking is that it creates this list of things nobody should do to your character because -you- haven't planned for it in your copious vision of how your character's life is going to pan out.  You have dreams and aspirations for your character? Good.. but when in the many years of your life have you seen all of your plans come to fruition? We have to roll with the punches and deal with the hand life offers.  And if it's being enslaved, then Krath-Damnit! it's being enslaved. Be the best damn slave ever and realize that it's not GAME-OVER. The Imms know that slave-roles are sensitive and especially when concerning a forced enslavement. Man, I -want- to get enslaved just to add that new dimension to my character's personality.. because then there's always the possibility of escape. *gasp*.. or someone buying your freedom. *gasp* Or you having fun when you didn't expect to! *GASP GASP*

[edited to remove cheerleader references] and read my entire post.  I'm for the idea of slavers going after PCs.  The game already allows PCs to play slave characters.  It even has a slave race, though one that isn't required to play enslaved if the player chooses not to.   Yay for slaves!

I'm also for a little thought put into it before it happens to even the rare random unlucky sod.   If all a newly enslaved character has to look forward to is a 4 room locked cage or an owner that gets bored and stops logging on, then it is effectively taking a PC out of the game.   As many of the posters have already said, there are much more creative ways of doing that.

[LoD]

I would be nervous about any implementation not made available to the playerbase as a whole.

People create characters free or enslaved for a reason.  They want to play a role by certain standards, and to be killed, enslaved or stored would be rather frustrating if the encounter was not 100% PC organized, backed and executed.  If there were thoughts of any Immortal intervention in these enslavements, I would be against it.

I would, however, love to see active PC slaving outfits created and operational in both Slaving Houses as well as perhaps some tribes or clans where it makes sense.  They should have the same challenges that raiders have had in the past so that both elements can be observed and refined to add a deeper experience to the game for everyone, not just slavers.

This would mean slavers would need to spend time learning routes, hiring spies, waiting on roads, setting traps and dealing with failures as any other PC in the game would.  That alone would provide for some exciting and interesting RP.

-LoD

[Ktavialt]

I love the idea. I think the "If I wanted to play a slave PC I'd
special app a slave PC" argument against it doesn't hold much
water. This mud isn't clearly designed to allow your character
to have everything he wants to happen to him (or not) happen
to him (or not). I should know, I've had tons of characters try
to do exceptional things and get mauled/eaten/burned alive/et
cetera. I like that Armageddon has a "life can be brutal" edge
to it, and this adds to it. It also could give having citizenship
and the relations between city-states and other orgs a new
meaning.

On the bad side, I suppose that being a slave PC could be
boring, but if anything this is a step up on the "Oh that sucks"
scale from say, dying to a trio a d-elf tribals, considering you
don't actually die. Also, what was said about there probably
being many ways to evade/pay off slavers is true.

Thumbs up on my end,
- Ktavialt

[Demonaire]

This idea would open up to so many different oppurtunities that it isn't even funny. Not only would it just be interesting to see them prepare to go out each week for their hunting and the boasting their members will be doing while being a part of this detail but this idea would also create conflict between Borsail and Winrothol. Small battles in the desert, both Houses are ranked highly in their Nobility giving them much influence on more attacks against their opposing city-state. This I think would bring out the hatred that should already be there for the opposing city-state.


On a side note, I diffenatly know that I would application to play a character they chase after and want to enslave. Krath, I would probably piss them off purposely to get them to come after me. Imagine the rush of Winrothol livery chasing after you in the waste lands simply because you have a sturdy back and no House markings? No longer will you call the Ivory a bunny-hugging pit of worthlessness!



                   - Demonaire -



            - Demonaire -

[amoeba]

Imagine the rush of Winrothol livery chasing after you in the waste lands simply because you have a sturdy back and no House markings? No longer will you call the Ivory a bunny-hugging pit of worthlessness!

If there is a chase, if there is tension, possiblites, then it would be good. But imagine how you would feel if they came at you with overwhelming odds.  All the cool emotes in the world when you have no chance in hell of evading the capture would make the experience suck.  I can envision the following senario where the slavers complain that everyone spam flees, so they start coming at everyone with surefire, "always get them", captures, then we get to endure tons of threads of people complaining about how those on the other side are all bad roleplayers.   We hear this all the time about raiding/delfs/magickers/gate guards.  Make this interesting and unpredicable, with risks on -both- sides and it will be great. Rush into it without good planning and it will not.

[Marc]

This should be imp'd.  More so it should be implimented with very few restrictions other than those participating be watched as heavily as the psis/sorcs and templars (twink guards and what not).  If your char ends up getting caught more than likely the slaver could have killed you instead so the whole "I dont wanna play a slave" argument holds no water.  Your char is finished so start a new one, just as if you died.

IC reprocussions will keep it in check.  Bribes would also be very situational so some clear cut ooc guideline is bogus.  If an elf offers you fifty sid it might just be worth, but a healthy, well-built and educated human might be worth more than that 1000 sid shes offering up for her freedom.

Slavery is so very under presented and allowing pc's to participate would add one more layer to the impressive cake that is Arm all without starting some new iso clan that rarely interacts with the bulk of the city populations

This would also allow people to rp escapes!  Slavetrackers!  Slave-gang rescues and more!

Sure, it can go bad and not be fun given the right circumstances, but what isn't that true for?  Turn on the light and this idea is no bleak shadow.  It gives PC's more freedom to do whatever their characters would do in any situation and thats always good

[sacac]

I'll repeat. I am completely in for this idea.
I have only spam fleed from mekillots, templars, and a when I saw a screen full of halflings appear auto-magickaly.

Since Naiona said they will be watched, there will be few pc slaves, and you can retire without bad feelings, or die in the arena, I love it.

By watching the slavers, she's watching the soon to be slaved.
And that right there is awesome.

[Anonymous]

Although Naiona's said it a few different ways already, some of the responses afterwards still leads me to believe one or two people have a lingering misunderstanding of our current expectations/goals (although these expectations are somewhat mutable).

Yes, PC's would be among the acceptable targets.

Yes, PC's could be captured.

Once captured, PC's could attempt to bribe their way out of it.

Once captured & returned to the slaving camp/base city, PC's or their friends could buy them out of slavery.

By choice, an enslaved PC could play the role for a few RL days to attempt escape or get friends together to buy them out.

No, we do not expect PC's to then continue playing the slave role.  Choices at that point include entering the arena or turning the PC into a virtual character (and OOC'ly storing the PC -- such storages would just get a note saying "enslaved" and carry no stigma whatsoever).

We've raised a similar concern regarding the potential effect on "newbies" still learning the game.  I'll leave most of my comments on this until this thread runs its course so as not to color things -- it's good to see a lot of responses and points of view, and I'd like to hear what yall perceive as the potential downsides & ways to possibly address them.

-Savak

[Savak]

Whups, forgot to log in.  That was, in fact, me.  -Savak

[Mulatto_Prophet]

Well, as one of the newbies in the game, I thought I might throw my 2 sids in (been wanting to say that since I heard it) and, maybe, give everyone a different perspective...if not exactly an intelligent one.

The thing that drew me to this MUD was how crazy challenging it was...and, not just because I like a hopeless situation, because Lord knows I can get into that just by trying to pick up a girl at a bar. The challenging nature of it drew me because I knew the people who really wanted to play were the only ones who would stick around. This MUD probably has the most reliable playerbase I have seen anywhere, and that's sweet because I can build relationships with other characters...something that is missing in most other MU*s out there.

So I say, as a newbie, bring on the slave collars. Yeah, there's a chance I might store a character, but there is also a chance that I might get into an amazing RP situation.

Let's face it, no one logs onto Armageddon because they want to play a character who dies of old age...genital disease maybe, but definately not old age.