Metals

[jmordetsky]

The debate on weapons, their sizes things that could be made and could not be made had me start to think about metals on Zalanthas.

And I started to think, maybe some of the things we have are unrealistic.

Like bone and obsidian swords....Could you get a long piece of bone's edge sharp enough to be consider a sword? I'm not sure...

Anyway, that conversation has been done to death, so I don't want to go there. What I did want to discuss was what metals do exist on Zalanthas, and whether we should perhaps up their supply slightly.

For example, obviously steel would be rare, but would copper, tin or iron, or taking small supplies of the former and making bronze for that matter?

Maybe we should introduce bronze items on a limited scale, to increase what is acutally possible to build.

I know this sounds like blasphemy, but I just wanted to hear peoples ideas on the matter.

[Forest Junkie]

No thanks. The minute you bring metals back into the game, every thief and shady type will be wearing one. We'll see hunters who have hordes of 'sid stashed away displaying helms and weapons of bronze, showing us all just how harsh life on Zalanthas really is, unless you know where spawn points are that is.

Even on a limited scale I would have to say no. To really grasp how rare metal really is, one has to observe who wears such items. Nobles. Enforcers. Kings and leaders. Letting such things be cycled into the normal market will -devalue- their worth, if commoners begin to wear such things.

This, IMO, would ruin the entire concept of 'metal being rare'.

[jhunter]

I think that it's become too ultra rare personally. I remember how it used to be a long time ago and I think it was fine then, metals were rare but not nonexistant. The only metals you see now days are useless items constructed of it. Besides, a metal weapon or armor here and there would be interesting...make people try to aquire them legally or illegally...it would create some conflict possibly.

[Forest Junkie]

I think that it's become too ultra rare personally.

I still have to disagree, but I think one's perception of how rare metal is really depends on the type of roles they have played.

As for me, I have actually owned metal items twice in my years of playing on the mud, with both pc's being something other than a noble, templar, or merchant.

So I really don't think metal is so rare one cannot acquire it. You just have to look hard enough, and in the right places.

[joyofdiscord]

The only metals you see now days are useless items constructed of it. Besides, a metal weapon or armor here and there would be interesting.

Now, I'm the first to admit profound ignorance on the topic of metals in Zalanthas.  Never had a char anywhere near it, but it does make sense to me that in such a metal-rare world, the things made from metal would be functionally useless.  What real use does someone have for a metal dagger or sword, anyway?  Besides showing off.  For the price of that dagger, you can hire a whole group of thugs that use bone and chitin weapons who will beat up anyone you want them to.  The bit of extra sharpness and durability that metal provides still doesn't seem to make it logical to use it for stabbing people, if metal is so rare and valuable.  Some small piece of metal armor, like a neckguard or something, might be nice for a paranoid templar.  Otherwise, I imagine that useless things like rings, trinkets, jewelry, baubles, or even decorative daggers, etc. make sense to me to be made of metal.  They are status symbols, not for gutting someone.  This is just how I see things.

[Twilight]

I remember once, in the late 90's, sitting in Traders with my officer ranked guard, and seeing this elf walk in with a steel sword, which immediately got my character to thinking how he could whack that elf to get that beautiful weapon.

Experiences like that are and should be rare.  As it is, with various non templar/noble characters I've owned a few metal items.  A couple of which were not even rings/keys.

The things about metal and/or magical objects in Arm is that they should never ever ever ever be sitting in some save room, and they rarely are.  They are on characters, they are in play.  If you choose do do otherwise with such items, I am sure the imms can make them dissappear.  And probably would.

[Jacques]

For example, obviously steel would be rare, but would copper, tin or iron, or taking small supplies of the former and making bronze for that matter?

Just to focus on iron for a moment, in the Zalanthan environment it would be very hard to convert iron ore into iron. You need the ore (which you have to recognize as being able to be turned into metal, and not just another rock - read: lots of folks will probably kill you if you know this), a considerable source of heat, and an adequate source of reactive carbon - also probably a rarity in Zalanthas. And even then, you only get pig-iron. That needs to be further refined to get anything actually usable. It's a difficult process, and I suspect that, like blacksmithing metal, only a very, very, VERY few people in the entire Arm world know anything about it.

(getting workable copper from ore is a similarly-intensive process)

Sure, the very wealthy could do this, like the templarate and such... that's why they HAVE metal in-game.

Note also that it's possible that the makeup of Zalanthas just doesn't HAVE a lot of copper, iron, or tin (the elements) in it, which would make metal items even HARDER to come by.

To conclude: if you want to see metal, go to Allanak. They worship a big-ole dragon made of metal down there.  :wink:

[jhunter]

What real use does someone have for a metal dagger or sword, anyway? Besides showing off. For the price of that dagger, you can hire a whole group of thugs that use bone and chitin weapons who will beat up anyone you want them to. The bit of extra sharpness and durability that metal provides still doesn't seem to make it logical to use it for stabbing people, if metal is so rare and valuable. Some small piece of metal armor, like a neckguard or something, might be nice for a paranoid templar. Otherwise, I imagine that useless things like rings, trinkets, jewelry, baubles, or even decorative daggers, etc. make sense to me to be made of metal. They are status symbols, not for gutting someone. This is just how I see things.

If what your saying is true metal weapons and armors wouldn't exist -at all-. Your argument is like saying that we shouldn't use obsidian for weapons for the same reasoning...think about it.

From a functionality standpoint it makes less sense to waste metals on other things when you could have better tools, weapons, and stronger armors from them. I mean if you have this precious material, why not make something useful out of it and utilize what makes it so sought after? I can see nobles, templars and their closest guards and such using metal weapons at least. It would be more intimidating for one to know that their blade can go through your armor like you weren't wearing it.

"Wow! Lord Fancypants guards are carrying iron blades...I'm not getting close to them or him. Can't pay me enough 'sids to get cut down like I was standing there naked."

"Fuck, I even try to block one of those blades and mine is gone."

I think it should be -slightly- more common to see nobles and templars carrying weapons made of metals and possibly their closest guards.

[joyofdiscord]

If what your saying is true metal weapons and armors wouldn't exist -at all-. Your argument is like saying that we shouldn't use obsidian for weapons for the same reasoning...think about it.

Obsidian is plentiful, so the reasoning does not apply at all.

From a functionality standpoint it makes less sense to waste metals on other things when you could have better tools, weapons, and stronger armors from them. I mean if you have this precious material, why not make something useful out of it and utilize what makes it so sought after?

In real life, diamonds are the hardest substance known to man, and as such, have many useful industrial applications.  However, only very low-grade, low-quality diamonds are used in industry, because the best ones are being used as status symbols in jewelry.  A status symbol will alweys make you LOADS more money than a tool, no matter how useful it is.

I can see nobles, templars and their closest guards and such using metal weapons at least. It would be more intimidating for one to know that their blade can go through your armor like you weren't wearing it.

"Wow! Lord Fancypants guards are carrying iron blades...I'm not getting close to them or him. Can't pay me enough 'sids to get cut down like I was standing there naked."

I definitely see your point on intimidation factor and slicing through armor.  I definitely do.  But Lord Fancypants better make sure he's paying his guards well enough that they don't just run off with those swords.  And his guards better have some good guards themselves in order to stop some opportunistic assassin slicing his carotid artery to relieve them of those blades.

And still, I think that with the money and effort those swords would cost, it would still be more effective to hire and train a whole mob of guards.  That'll be pretty intimidating too.  Arming ones' guards with metal may be intimidating, but I think it's also intimidating partly because it's showing off how rich and powerful one is, which puts it squarely in the category of a status symbol.

I think it should be -slightly- more common to see nobles and templars carrying weapons made of metals and possibly their closest guards.

Yeah, ultimately I could agree with this.  A templar carrying around a metal sidearm wouldn't seem too out-of-place to me, but my conception of the reasoning is different.  Templars are already intimidating and powerful enough with their fireballs and whatever other high-quality weapons they have.  A steel dagger is the icing on the cake, at most, and seems to function best just by showing off how great he is.

[Mook]

The process of refining metals is f'ing difficult.. but I think powerful organizations, like SALARR would see the profit in selling -more- metal, if it were only a matter of refining it.  I mean, Salarr only has to 'steal' the secrets of smelting/refining -once-.  And then everyone in Zalanthas would have access, at a reasonable price, to metal weapons/tools.

For this reason, I do not believe metal can be acquired from most Zalanthan rocks - those elements just can't be present at appreciable levels.  Because if they were, metal would be seen at a much higher level in-game.  

I'd really love an official yes/no on if smelting Zalanthan rocks works to produce metals, but they seem to like being vague.  Maybe I'll app a high-level Salarri merchant who sends spies around the world to seek-out the origin of noble's and templar's metal weapons.    I don't think he'd discover anything of use though, because it seems like such an obvious and attainable thing to do, that someone would have done it a long time ago.

[creeper386]

I really would like to see more metal items, but not for the general public just special folks.

As long as staff also kept an eye on that sort of thing. Like who has what and such. Because I could see even larger organizations taking out a 'rinthi rat just because he has a metal dagger.

Although, they aren't TOO rare. I know I've owned a metal object in my Arm life time.

Oh, it was a great five minutes.


Creeper

[Marauder Moe]

I think the amount of metal in-game now is fine.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

If you walked into either city-state with a visible metallic weapon, or even a metallic trinket, I'm sure the Templarate would tax you, frame you, plant something on you, or just outright kill you and take it. A smelly-ass halfbreed should almost never own a steel scimitar, simply because there will always be half a thousand people willing to kill him and take it. And in the dog-eat-dog world of Zalanthas, the Templar, nobles, and high-class merchants are the most likely to kill you, and metallic objects (with very few exceptions) will eventually find their way into their hands. Or warehouses.

[Trenidor]

Metal Level is fine...

Iron is the only thing you'll be finding on Zalanthas...

Steel is just iron without the impurities

Stainless steal is steel heat treated just right to make is resistant to damage
Titanium is just several mixtures with removed impurities.
Same with Many other metals

Most people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between sand and metal grainules either

Bronze is easier to make than steel because it's easier to melt and turn them into liquids adding tin and copper together and blending into bronze, but, smelting iron is much more effective.

And yes...bone is actually fun to play with and make sharp and throw at one another.

Obsidian is glass it's easy to make that sharp and dangerous

Also...you might want to know that all metals are different...Steel however, is the strongest so far. I know you might think it's titanium, but titanium is more of a cheap means to have sudden strenght. Steel will last longer under stress, but titanium can hold more for a short period of time.

So in other words...research some more...figure out what metals come from what, then do the following:

Does ____ fit with the game world?
Does ____ improve the game world?
What aspects can be done with ____?
How would ____ effect the world on a large scale?
How would ____ effect the world at the start?

So in other words...introducing more iron, tin, and copper wouldn't be a good idea. What's the point anyways? We have wood bone and glass that works perfectly fine right now for weapons purposes.  And a hell of a lot more things that work better for gizmos.

And also, all zalanthas use a special method of making weapons: 'The chip and carve method' So none of them would understand that you heat up metal, pound it with a hammer, smelt it to remove impurities, hammer it again to shape it, heat it up once more to level out the item, and then buff it, smooth it, and sharpen it. It would be more along the lines of: Use this chissel to carve away the metal. This means the metal is going to be much weaker than your bone and wood because it's grains are all out of wack going in many different directions and not smooth and in order of the length of the item liike you can do with wood grains.

How about you make a character, turn them into a master crafter, put in a request to the best merchant that you'd like some metal you could use to make whatever you're good at crafting. Then wait till you get ahold of some. After that, see what you can make from it, and use your "I'm a mastercrafter so I wanna make this special item from this iron" And submit it to the staff who in turn will change it. Then you can give it away to your favorite templar/noble and become famous.

In conclusion of my rant, and I hate to sound like a prick:
Don't even worry what metals are on Zalanthas, your character wouldn't understand it and apparently neither do you. Once you actually come across some IG, you'll realize it's not all that great, it's just shiney like obsidian only silvery grey in color. I'm guessing no common folk would want the stuff unless they were educated (which most arent) And of those who are educated, only the merchants who deal with the upper class (nobility and such) would be able to sell it for the price of it's rareity. On the other hand, if you're nobility, and you want to have something really rare, you might understand that metal is rare.

PS. Oh, and also...only a magicker would be able to make metalic stuff the way it is made in real life. Non-magickers wouldn't have the brain to light it on fire, and if they did, they wouldn't know what to make a forge out of to get it hot enough. Even if they knew all that it would be extreemly hard to engineer the forge to get enough heat. Once you play a noble with access to a really really deep pit where metal can be found, and that noble is an engineer, and they're good with items that require firing (a potter perhaps) then they might get it in there head to heat up metal and get something done. No one would be lucky enough to stumble upon metal working the way it would actually be useful to them.

PPS. Don't bother mentioning metal on the boards unless you've come across it IG, and even if you did, email the imms first and ask them questions. It's not something to mess with and let's leave the matter at that.

[creeper386]

And also, all zalanthas use a special method of making weapons: 'The chip and carve method' So none of them would understand that you heat up metal, pound it with a hammer, smelt it to remove impurities, hammer it again to shape it, heat it up once more to level out the item, and then buff it, smooth it, and sharpen it. It would be more along the lines of: Use this chissel to carve away the metal. This means the metal is going to be much weaker than your bone and wood because it's grains are all out of wack going in many different directions and not smooth and in order of the length of the item liike you can do with wood grains.

Completely disagree. Metal-working HAS been in the world of Zalanthas. And I believe there stats in the documents that most likely the knowledge is still around, someplace.

Also, if it's so hard to make figure out a forging technique ... Even with abundance like we have on Earth ... How did we figure it out? obviously they can shape metal. They have metal rings that aren't just chiseled ore. Sure magick might be a an easier way to shape it ... Doesn't mean Zalanthans can't do it some other way.


Creeper thinks they still gather water naturally even with water elementalists.

[Mook]

agree@creeper

And like I said in -my- rant:  if there was a level, comparable to ours, of metal ore/dust/whatever in the environment, people -would- be able to harvest and melt it down for use.  Folks figured it out thousands of years BCE, and repeatedly since then in isolated societies.

rar

[Angela Christine]

I once had a half-breed grebber find a corpse with a pair of anakore-claw gloves, and she kept those gloves in her pack most of the time because she was afraid people would target her if they saw the gloves.  At the time everyone wanted anakore clawed gloves, and she obviously wasn't bad ass enough or connected well enough to hold onto anything valuable.  She would have shat herself if she found a corpse with a steel longsword.    For many characters metal is only useful for sell, and sell quickly and quietly, because your life ain't worth spit if people know you have it.  You might as well wear studded leather armor where the studs are made of diamonds.   Hmm, I bet diamond studded armor would be pretty good, actually.  For an unaffiliated commoner looking poor is a survival skill.  Give me shabby-looking clothing and a fast erdlu and the world is my oyster.



There is some metal.  The Highlord decided to make a giant-hood ornament out of steal rather than weapons, and even if that statue is hollow it would have made a hell of a lot of weapons.  But once those weapons are in circulation they WILL fall into the wrong hands.  As an insanely heavy statue he knows where the steel is if he ever wants it, and it stays out of the wrong hands.  

Where did he get all that steel?  Well, it could be really ancient steel that has been recycled from time immemorial, but I have another theory.  Allanak has a huge underground obsidian mine, not just those little chunks PCs use, but the real deal.  While they are underground mining obsidian, occasionally they come accross veins of other stuff.  Don't forget, this is an obsidian mine, which means it was formed from volcanic activity (or perhaps earth-rendingly violent magic) long ago.  Now I may be wrong, but my sense is that heat sufficient to melt silicate rock into glass (obsidian glass) would also be hot enough to melt metalic ores.  In fact, the melting and flowing process could seperate out the metals from eachother and from the stone, in effect working like nature's own smelter.  Mining volcanic rock you might just find nearly pure strains of metals that pooled as the magma cooled.  The metal pockets might even be the real purpose of the mines, with the obsidian itself being merely a useful by-product.  

Then again, I know practically nothing about geology, so take my wild ideas with a grain of salt.


Angela Christine

[wizturbo]

I've seen metal weapons and armor on rare occasion, and it should NOT be common.  Tektolnes' personal guard might be outfitted with steel blades.  A black robe templar might have a steel helmet.  The Commander of a large army might have some metal items to display their rank, and to act as a beacon of morale for their men.  The most wealthy noble and merchant houses might have metallic objects strung about here and there to display their power....

A common person acquiring these items however, would be extremely unlikely.  A common person KEEPING these objects, basically impossible unless they bury it in a hole somewhere and tell no one they ever saw it.

Remember, metal's real use in Zalanthas isn't to be 'used' as much as displayed as a symbol of power, with some small exceptions that require metal that I won't get into on the boards.  If you don't have power, and lots of it, you shouldn't have metal either.

[jmordetsky]

Could you build a tower out of obsidian, bone and stone?

Remember this isn't just about weapons.

What about taking the gemmed into account? Krathi's maybe for working metals, or rukkians for building walls. *shrug* just a few thoughts.

[Trenidor]

Ya...Zalanthas -had- everything at one time...then we all went apocolyptic and lost a ton of things.

We found out in a couple different ways:
1. We figured it out that throwing a rock in boiling lava  turned it into liquid. We figured that out because people lived near volcanos that erupted occationally and that lava dried into solid rock. From there, we decided to make our own volcanos and so they made a round bowl out of rock and put charcoal in made by burning wood for a while and then dousing the fire and letting to dry. From there, they put in special rocks that they found would boil at low temperatures which were shiney and valued for jewlery purposes. One guy that doesn't know that much puts in tin and copper forming bronze after leaving it a while. He makes a little bit stronger of metal and so one guy wants a spearhead out of it because he's rich and the chieftan. Knives are made, they get longer and longer, and eventually you have a sword.

2. The vikings found disolved iron in swamps and scooped it up, set it next to the fire to dry and ended up with hard metal. They figure they can make weapons from it so they mold it, hit it with hammers, and decide it's easy to bend. From there they form weapons of many sizes.

In all cases, you have to have something that Zalanthas doens't really have. Volcanos, if they are still around, would be considered something a magicker did and people would stay away from it. We deffinately don't have mountain caps that disolve iron into the rivers and float it down into swamps. Also....there isn't enough of these 'special rocks' to experiment with.

If you find a clump of gold, you'd probably think it too rare for anything but cerimonial purposes.

Besides, those metal rings you find...how do you know they didn't just carve it out of a chunk and smooth it?

And finnally...Zalanthas aren't dependant on metal in any way. We have better things. Once we have railroads and guns that need that metal then yes, let's add it in. In the mean time, do like I said before and make a mastercrafter. From there you can talk to the staff and waste all the metal you get your hands on trying to figure out what to do with it.

[WarriorPoet]

The one and only time I've had a metal object into my possession, it was for a total of six seconds. Long enough for me to pick it up, stare at it stupidly, then meekly hand it to the Templar next to me, who was looming dangerously.

It was exciting. Almost orgasmic. A brief trail of a finger over it was enough to make my heart thump. This was IT. I wouldn't trade that moment for a hundred shining steel swords, and I think that is the way the staff, and I, want it.

-WP

[Mook]

Trenidor wrote:

Also....there isn't enough of these 'special rocks' to experiment with.

Completely agree.  Though to my logic, this is the only reason metal isn't common.

[jmordetsky]

This is sort of derailing from the original point I wanted to discuss.

We all know *why* there [EDIT: aren't metal items] on Zalanthas from an environmental point of view.

The discussion to be had is, is it realistic that the things we have in Zalanthas contain absolutely 0 metal, and would the game be more or less fun if there was some crude metal available.

Jmordetsky the thread nazi has spoken.

[Maybe42or54]

My opinion on the matter, is that everything has a good amount of Iron concentration, bone, chitin, ivory, claws, all have a higher amount of actual metal concentration that on earth.

[Kalden]

It was exciting. Almost orgasmic. A brief trail of a finger over it was enough to make my heart thump.

Man, you need to get out more.  

We all know *why* there isn't metal on Zalanthas from an environmental point of view.

We do? *scratches his head*