Metals

[Rhyden]

We all know *why* there isn't metal on Zalanthas from an environmental point of view.

We do? *scratches his head*

Yes, we do. Zalanthas' primitive technology and sciences aren't advanced enough to discover the process of collecting metal-like substances as well the whereabouts of such minerals. As well, the harsh desert conditions aren't so geographically or geologically efficient for metal-mining. (Just clearing up what jmordetsky's saying, hopefully.)

On another note. Had somebody aquired a sufficient amount of metal, how would it be shaped? Other metal tools? Obsidian? The process of shaping metal without any other metal seems pretty painstaking. Of course, even if Zalanthians have discovered the process of heating metal to form it, this way would also be slow and very difficult.

Just my two obsidian coins.

[lazycritic]

Yes, we do. Zalanthas' primitive technology and sciences aren't advanced enough to discover the process of collecting metal-like substances as well the whereabouts of such minerals. As well, the harsh desert conditions aren't so geographically or geologically efficient for metal-mining.

So you're saying that Allanak has lower technology than ancient Egypt? Interesting thesis, but certainly not common knowledge, and almost certainly disproven by the fact that they do, in fact, have the technology to mine metal  . The huge metal statue is proof of that. You could make the argument, perhaps, that Highlord Tek forgot, but I don't buy it.

I always just figured metals aren't common because, well, they aren't. That's how the world was built. It's like wondering why magick exists. It simply does.

[Forest Junkie]

I always just figured metals aren't common because, well, they aren't. That's how the world was built. It's like wondering why magick exists. It simply does.

That's about the only way it can be explained. 'Just because', heh.

Good post, I agree.

[Rhyden]

Yes, we do. Zalanthas' primitive technology and sciences aren't advanced enough to discover the process of collecting metal-like substances as well the whereabouts of such minerals. As well, the harsh desert conditions aren't so geographically or geologically efficient for metal-mining.

So you're saying that Allanak has lower technology than ancient Egypt? Interesting thesis, but certainly not common knowledge, and almost certainly disproven by the fact that they do, in fact, have the technology to mine metal  . The huge metal statue is proof of that. You could make the argument, perhaps, that Highlord Tek forgot, but I don't buy it.

Actually. Yes. I am saying Allanak has lower technology than all three Kingdoms of Ancient Egypt.

Brief history lesson- Ancient Egypt had advanced mathematics to survey their land using geometry. Egyptians used astrology in order to record organized time using calendars, sun-dials. Egyptians' science allowed them to preform surgery on dead Pharaohs (usually) with the ability of taking the brain out from the head without any damage along with other organs. They could preserve dead bodies with special salts called natron which ensured there would be little decomposition. Egypt's hieroglyphics were almost used by all merchants, nobles and priests closer to the New Kingdom. Common education was available to many.

Egypt's geography is much different than Zalanthas. You wanna know why? The freaking --NILE--, the Red Sea, Mediterranean Sea, the Delta, the fertile crescent (more Mesopotamia, but close enough). I'm not totally sure about the science relating water to metal, but I'm sure that it would have a huge significance as to why Egypt had metal where Zalanthas does not.

As for that statue quite visible to most Allanakis, whether it's hollow or not, it was made many, many, many years back when metal wasn't so rare. As for how it was obtained, I have no idea, perhaps mining. If it was obtained through mining, I think it would be reasonable to say that either Zalanthians have mined out the entire Known World, haven't cared to look in some places, or the technology was lost through time.

[lazycritic]

I am saying Allanak has lower technology than all three Kingdoms of Ancient Egypt.

There are things you don't know about Allanak.  :wink:

I don't think it takes super-high technology to get refine bronze. Most ancient civilizations in the Fertile Crescent were able to do it. If Zalanthas had abundant bronze, it would do it too.

I'm not totally sure about the science relating water to metal, but I'm sure that it would have a huge significance as to why Egypt had metal where Zalanthas does not.

There's no reason that to be related. I've never heard of water creating metal. Think about the chemicals involved. I highly doubt there is any connection. Thing is, people who create fantasy worlds are not necessarily science buffs. A fantasy world is fanciful. As FJ said, there's no metal "just because".

[Linedel]

Iron is the only thing you'll be finding on Zalanthas...

Steel is just iron without the impurities

Stainless steal is steel heat treated just right to make is resistant to damage
Titanium is just several mixtures with removed impurities.
Same with Many other metals

This is totally wrong.

Iron is an element.

Steel is several of many iron alloys, mixed with other elements (carbon being the most prevalent) to form a crystal structure that is harder and less brittle than pure iron.  The process used to make it, exactly how you cool the blade after heating, how fast it cools, how hot your heat source was, etc., are all as important, if not moreso than the exact ratio of what you add.  Not all iron alloys are steel.

Titanium is an element.


Seaching the internet is a pain in the ass... this is the best I could find on page 1 of google...  If you want to know more about this, find a materials science textbook at your library, or harass your local engineering major to let you borrow theirs.

http://www.bondhus.com/metallurgy/body-2.htm

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
If what your saying is true metal weapons and armors wouldn't exist -at all-. Your argument is like saying that we shouldn't use obsidian for weapons for the same reasoning...think about it.


Obsidian is plentiful, so the reasoning does not apply at all.

Down south this is true, not up north.

[jhunter]

If you walked into either city-state with a visible metallic weapon, or even a metallic trinket, I'm sure the Templarate would tax you, frame you, plant something on you, or just outright kill you and take it. A smelly-ass halfbreed should almost never own a steel scimitar, simply because there will always be half a thousand people willing to kill him and take it. And in the dog-eat-dog world of Zalanthas, the Templar, nobles, and high-class merchants are the most likely to kill you, and metallic objects (with very few exceptions) will eventually find their way into their hands. Or warehouses.

True, and I see absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. If anything it would add to rp opportunities.

[Anonymous]

I totally agree.

[Trenidor]

Back to what the real topic is supposed to cover....

I don't think bronze is really needed to introduce...unless you've found a ton other metals with your master crafter character and you've already made everything on the list of metalics.

[fearwig]

Yeah. Zalanthas is better with limitations. Metal needs to be one of those limitations, in my opinion. People see rarity and they think the game would somehow be better if that thing weren't rare. It's just nuts. You can't combine IC wants with OOC wants like that. I don't see the point.

[Maybe42or54]

And with it being Rare.
I can play a game like.. Ninja Gaiden and pretend I was in Tuluk.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

jhunter wrote:

True, and I see absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. If anything it would add to rp opportunities.

Yes, I was hoping that was implied by what I said. That's the way I like it, that's the way things should work. Thanks for pointing that out, heh.
jmordetsky wrote:

The discussion to be had is, is it realistic that the things we have in Zalanthas contain absolutely 0 metal, and would the game be more or less fun if there was some crude metal available.

To the first part of the question, I would say: yes, I think it's realistic to the gameworld. I'd also like to clarify and say that there is metal on Zalanthas. Enough for even relatively minor nobles to have rings made of the stuff.
We can discuss all the chemistry and metallurgy you'd like. I don't care if it's almost impossible to make metal with Zalanthan products, or if it's something you could do in a seventh grade science class. The simple fact is that in order to make metal, work metal, and shape metal, you need to know how to do it. Even if the materials and conditions for doing so are abundant, I doubt the knowledge is. There's a reason the commoners are kept ignorant. With the way the Known World works, knowledge of blacksmithing would be kept to an elite few.
While it might be a little unrealistic that no one's had the bright idea to melt a bunch of rocks together and whack it with a hammer, I don't think it's entirely beyond belief, given the limited education in the gameworld. Suspend your disbelief a little bit, people. No metal is not as ludicrous as magick, a sea of silt, or ants the size of SUVs.
As for cheap metal, I don't think its a big issue. Sure, if a templar character is walking around with a bronze sword instead of a steel one, I have no problem with that. I might even like it... the steel swords would, realistically, go to the black robes, not some glorified crossing gaurd in a blue robe. But a bronze sword might be within their reach.
If you're talking about a lot more metal, even with lower-quality metal objects, and enough for commoners to realistically have them, then I'd have to say no thank you. Currently, characters who should be poor often have access to great sources of wealth, whether through quirks in the code or outright twinkage. And the day when dusty northern hunters and shit-covered 'Rinthers are walking around flashing bronze daggers is the day when Armageddon loses a chunk of its unique flavor.
In short: different types of cruder metal are okay, but they should still only belong to the elite. High-ranking merchants, nobles, templars, and military officials.

[Rhyden]

I did a little research concerning Egypt's metal source which was really discovered by the Assyrians and then later picked up by the Egyptians through invasion.

Anyways, the Assyrians came around Asia Minor which is composed greatly of mountainous areas where mines could be found to mine various forms of metal from such as bronze, copper and iron.

What I'm thinking is metal is available in Zalanthas around the mountain-type areas (around the north mainly), its just unreachable codedly to any player.

Whether or not metal really is rare or just unaccessable due to code or geographical physicalities, we'll probably never know.

[Anael]

Bronze an iron were 'discovered' later, most anceint nations used metal that was much easier to shape - copper. Even with copper, some of the sharpest tools (knives, razors) were made of flint and not metal. Stone can be -damn- sharp, but brittle. Copper (and bronze or iron too, to lesser degree) is prone to bending and misshaping.
I remember seeing a documentary (BBC, methinks) where one guy skinned a rabbit using flint shards only... don't underestimate stones (especially those thrown at you)!

[fearwig]

I'm going to assume that was a typo. Did you mean flint or stone, by "steel"?

Either one, I think, can have the desired qualities.

[drasik]

Alright, I have worked with both flint and obsidian IRL.

Flint when knapped correctly is extremely sharp but very brittle, but you can seriously cut some things up. I saw a guy who was knapping flint have to go to the hospital for stitches when he messed up and cut down to the bone.

Obsidian, now this is VERY sharp, sharper than flint can get because basically it's glass. I have actually made a knife from obsidian because I was weird as a child. It was good, but was no where near as strong as steel.

Steel, can potentially be sharp enough to cleave through bones and shit. There are mastermade swords that can cleave through just about anything, but here on Zalanthas, it is the rarest commodity and I doubt there is anyone capable enough to actually craft a sword near that.

There, there's some info on other things many people don't consider when playing Armageddon but I do. Maybe this helps, maybe it doesn't.

[fearwig]

I've got to go with you here--people seem to underplay the absolute usefulness of those items.

But... there is a reason they fell out of favor as technology progressed--like you said, brittle as hell. I remember a documentary on central america and the conquistadors describing the value of each form of weaponry against the other group's soldiers--the locals used obsidian shards embedded in wood clubs as sort of makeshift swords. The problem here is that, while these will cut flesh like butter, they will shatter to pieces when parried with a metal sword or when they strike metal armor.

The brittle nature of these swords isn't really reflected by the game to much of a degree, which always seemed kind of bogus to me. I'd like to see 'sid swords shatter now and then, or crack, while bone ones, though less sharp, last longer, et cetera. Chitin or even hard leather would have a good chance to wear a 'sid weapon down, with time, at least enough to crack a sharpened edge, if not the weapon as a whole.

That said, clothes don't tatter nearly as easily as they should, either. If you take a nasty gash to the chest, your shirt is ripped, bub. Useful still, sure, but ripped. Would have to take a check as to what kind of damage is taken, though--blunt stuff wouldn't damage anything soft, for instance, et cetera. But then I have a knack for micromanagement, so maybe this isn't really necessary in the game. Even that aside, these are both pretty much dead horses.

[Maybe42or54]

There was a short time there when I was an independant hunter..
Every couple of fights I shattered my obsidian sword.

[Trenidor]

Edited by Quetesh


One of the things I play armageddon for is because it's so different than any other thing. Maybe I'm the one with the problem here and I'm being selfish for not wanting metal, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that it states in the docs that metal is scarce.

[Maybe42or54]

Wow. You almost made me cry Trenidor.

I'd add that he may need the One of a kind piece of equipment so that he can feel he acomplished something in game.

But other than that, I agree with trenidor.

[Socko]

Everyone wants metal.

That doesn't mean you'll get it.

[Spud]

I always thought metal was so sought after, that people would kill for it. Riots would break out in cities and hundreds would die, just because of the metal. Metal would mean extreme wealth for anyone that had it, and everyone wants money. The average commoner is supposed to be poor,  maybe even starving so if the chance of making any money came up they would probably die trying. And when a large amount of money can be made, anything would be thought conceivable except maybe attacking a templar (Unless they were crazy, which some may be...although the idea itself of getting metal may be enough to drive them crazy). What I'm trying to say is that metal would not work in any society with the exception of templars and nobles.
This is all my own personal opinion, feel free to jab at it.

[jhunter]

Edited by Qetesh


Armageddon was originally based off Darksun and in that setting way back when those of us -true- vets started playing it was much closer to that setting. Metals were rare...but not ULTRA rare. There is a big difference between them being rare and almost non-existant in the hands of pcs. Back in those days, there were conflicts caused because of those things and now NOTHING is caused by the existance of them. Back in those days...there was conflict over material things WAY more than there is now. It was taken away to make things more civil in an OOC fashion IMHO. The game was more fun and more active back then.

It's because of sissy bitches that the game is really become less harsh and active compared to what it used to be in the old days.

"Ohhh, let's sit and tavern bitch and that's really good RP instead of flat out destructive and death-dealing RP that made Arm the game it was supposed to be today."


The tavern sitters...the proactive, murdering,lying, cheating,backstabbing,double-dealing MOTHERFUCKINGSONSOFBITCHES are what made Arm really stand out. RP is first and foremost, but a lot of avenues of RP have been fucked up by the immortals catering to whining little wusses who want everything to be civil and "fair" from an OOC standpoint. And In My Most Honest Opinion have degraded the game from what it used to be in the old days.

Let's take metals and make what's already RARE and make them ultra rare so as to not cause any conflicts.

You are fucking sissies.

I'd welcome the entertainment and conflicts that would be introduced by the lessening of rarity of useful metals in the game. Right now, the game is sleeping deeply compared to what it used to be. And it is because of the fears of "disrupting" things for material gain.
Hey, check this out...material gain...is a "REALISTIC" source of conflict.

Anyway, you don't like what I have to say tough shit. Nothing you say will get me to respond to this again. Dock me karma...whatever...I don't give a flying fuck about karma anyway. I hardly use the karma I have.

I think this is the most HONEST response any vets to the game can give. Psssh, I remember when living beyond 20 days was a chore...now it's commonplace...even for some newbies.

Almost ready to stop playing unless things go back toward harsher days. The game is really beginning to lose some of it's BEST aspects. I can get good RP other places...in as harsh of a setting as it used to be...doubtful.

Sorry, but dammit...I personally think the game is getting crappier and losing some of what made it great as things go on. The code is getting better the conflicts and happenings in game are getting lame.

[wizturbo]

First off, Jhunter, Doctor Wiz proscribes you at least a six pack of beers *points to the fridge*  Drink.


Second, even though the post was written in frustration and obviously wasn't "pulling any punches" I have to say I agree with Jhunter's opinion.  I'm not a "vet" the date i made this gdb name is the time i started playing, but I definitely see less conflict over more mundane things then I'd like.

Do I think that making metal attainable by PC's should occur, yes, though not by the spawn on saturday method of some rare materials.  I think these sort of items should be added in more delibrate ways.  I mean direct imm-support on something like that.  An imm randomly assigns a nugget of metal to be found at a certain obsidian deposit.  An imm has an NPC raider die in a gortok cave, with a steel dagger in his backpack.  Scenarios such as that, purposely made to spicen things up, but in no way an exploitable cycle.

If you don't want your precious PC to die, don't try and hold on to said metal item.  The reason metal is a symbol of power, is because it claims you've the power to not only buy, but PROTECT the metal you own.  A warrior with a steel sword reflects that the woman holding it is as deadly as the blade itself.