Metals

[jmordetsky]

The debate on weapons, their sizes things that could be made and could not be made had me start to think about metals on Zalanthas.

And I started to think, maybe some of the things we have are unrealistic.

Like bone and obsidian swords....Could you get a long piece of bone's edge sharp enough to be consider a sword? I'm not sure...

Anyway, that conversation has been done to death, so I don't want to go there. What I did want to discuss was what metals do exist on Zalanthas, and whether we should perhaps up their supply slightly.

For example, obviously steel would be rare, but would copper, tin or iron, or taking small supplies of the former and making bronze for that matter?

Maybe we should introduce bronze items on a limited scale, to increase what is acutally possible to build.

I know this sounds like blasphemy, but I just wanted to hear peoples ideas on the matter.

[Forest Junkie]

No thanks. The minute you bring metals back into the game, every thief and shady type will be wearing one. We'll see hunters who have hordes of 'sid stashed away displaying helms and weapons of bronze, showing us all just how harsh life on Zalanthas really is, unless you know where spawn points are that is.

Even on a limited scale I would have to say no. To really grasp how rare metal really is, one has to observe who wears such items. Nobles. Enforcers. Kings and leaders. Letting such things be cycled into the normal market will -devalue- their worth, if commoners begin to wear such things.

This, IMO, would ruin the entire concept of 'metal being rare'.

[jhunter]

I think that it's become too ultra rare personally. I remember how it used to be a long time ago and I think it was fine then, metals were rare but not nonexistant. The only metals you see now days are useless items constructed of it. Besides, a metal weapon or armor here and there would be interesting...make people try to aquire them legally or illegally...it would create some conflict possibly.

[Forest Junkie]

I think that it's become too ultra rare personally.

I still have to disagree, but I think one's perception of how rare metal is really depends on the type of roles they have played.

As for me, I have actually owned metal items twice in my years of playing on the mud, with both pc's being something other than a noble, templar, or merchant.

So I really don't think metal is so rare one cannot acquire it. You just have to look hard enough, and in the right places.

[joyofdiscord]

The only metals you see now days are useless items constructed of it. Besides, a metal weapon or armor here and there would be interesting.

Now, I'm the first to admit profound ignorance on the topic of metals in Zalanthas.  Never had a char anywhere near it, but it does make sense to me that in such a metal-rare world, the things made from metal would be functionally useless.  What real use does someone have for a metal dagger or sword, anyway?  Besides showing off.  For the price of that dagger, you can hire a whole group of thugs that use bone and chitin weapons who will beat up anyone you want them to.  The bit of extra sharpness and durability that metal provides still doesn't seem to make it logical to use it for stabbing people, if metal is so rare and valuable.  Some small piece of metal armor, like a neckguard or something, might be nice for a paranoid templar.  Otherwise, I imagine that useless things like rings, trinkets, jewelry, baubles, or even decorative daggers, etc. make sense to me to be made of metal.  They are status symbols, not for gutting someone.  This is just how I see things.

[Twilight]

I remember once, in the late 90's, sitting in Traders with my officer ranked guard, and seeing this elf walk in with a steel sword, which immediately got my character to thinking how he could whack that elf to get that beautiful weapon.

Experiences like that are and should be rare.  As it is, with various non templar/noble characters I've owned a few metal items.  A couple of which were not even rings/keys.

The things about metal and/or magical objects in Arm is that they should never ever ever ever be sitting in some save room, and they rarely are.  They are on characters, they are in play.  If you choose do do otherwise with such items, I am sure the imms can make them dissappear.  And probably would.

[Jacques]

For example, obviously steel would be rare, but would copper, tin or iron, or taking small supplies of the former and making bronze for that matter?

Just to focus on iron for a moment, in the Zalanthan environment it would be very hard to convert iron ore into iron. You need the ore (which you have to recognize as being able to be turned into metal, and not just another rock - read: lots of folks will probably kill you if you know this), a considerable source of heat, and an adequate source of reactive carbon - also probably a rarity in Zalanthas. And even then, you only get pig-iron. That needs to be further refined to get anything actually usable. It's a difficult process, and I suspect that, like blacksmithing metal, only a very, very, VERY few people in the entire Arm world know anything about it.

(getting workable copper from ore is a similarly-intensive process)

Sure, the very wealthy could do this, like the templarate and such... that's why they HAVE metal in-game.

Note also that it's possible that the makeup of Zalanthas just doesn't HAVE a lot of copper, iron, or tin (the elements) in it, which would make metal items even HARDER to come by.

To conclude: if you want to see metal, go to Allanak. They worship a big-ole dragon made of metal down there.  :wink:

[jhunter]

What real use does someone have for a metal dagger or sword, anyway? Besides showing off. For the price of that dagger, you can hire a whole group of thugs that use bone and chitin weapons who will beat up anyone you want them to. The bit of extra sharpness and durability that metal provides still doesn't seem to make it logical to use it for stabbing people, if metal is so rare and valuable. Some small piece of metal armor, like a neckguard or something, might be nice for a paranoid templar. Otherwise, I imagine that useless things like rings, trinkets, jewelry, baubles, or even decorative daggers, etc. make sense to me to be made of metal. They are status symbols, not for gutting someone. This is just how I see things.

If what your saying is true metal weapons and armors wouldn't exist -at all-. Your argument is like saying that we shouldn't use obsidian for weapons for the same reasoning...think about it.

From a functionality standpoint it makes less sense to waste metals on other things when you could have better tools, weapons, and stronger armors from them. I mean if you have this precious material, why not make something useful out of it and utilize what makes it so sought after? I can see nobles, templars and their closest guards and such using metal weapons at least. It would be more intimidating for one to know that their blade can go through your armor like you weren't wearing it.

"Wow! Lord Fancypants guards are carrying iron blades...I'm not getting close to them or him. Can't pay me enough 'sids to get cut down like I was standing there naked."

"Fuck, I even try to block one of those blades and mine is gone."

I think it should be -slightly- more common to see nobles and templars carrying weapons made of metals and possibly their closest guards.

[joyofdiscord]

If what your saying is true metal weapons and armors wouldn't exist -at all-. Your argument is like saying that we shouldn't use obsidian for weapons for the same reasoning...think about it.

Obsidian is plentiful, so the reasoning does not apply at all.

From a functionality standpoint it makes less sense to waste metals on other things when you could have better tools, weapons, and stronger armors from them. I mean if you have this precious material, why not make something useful out of it and utilize what makes it so sought after?

In real life, diamonds are the hardest substance known to man, and as such, have many useful industrial applications.  However, only very low-grade, low-quality diamonds are used in industry, because the best ones are being used as status symbols in jewelry.  A status symbol will alweys make you LOADS more money than a tool, no matter how useful it is.

I can see nobles, templars and their closest guards and such using metal weapons at least. It would be more intimidating for one to know that their blade can go through your armor like you weren't wearing it.

"Wow! Lord Fancypants guards are carrying iron blades...I'm not getting close to them or him. Can't pay me enough 'sids to get cut down like I was standing there naked."

I definitely see your point on intimidation factor and slicing through armor.  I definitely do.  But Lord Fancypants better make sure he's paying his guards well enough that they don't just run off with those swords.  And his guards better have some good guards themselves in order to stop some opportunistic assassin slicing his carotid artery to relieve them of those blades.

And still, I think that with the money and effort those swords would cost, it would still be more effective to hire and train a whole mob of guards.  That'll be pretty intimidating too.  Arming ones' guards with metal may be intimidating, but I think it's also intimidating partly because it's showing off how rich and powerful one is, which puts it squarely in the category of a status symbol.

I think it should be -slightly- more common to see nobles and templars carrying weapons made of metals and possibly their closest guards.

Yeah, ultimately I could agree with this.  A templar carrying around a metal sidearm wouldn't seem too out-of-place to me, but my conception of the reasoning is different.  Templars are already intimidating and powerful enough with their fireballs and whatever other high-quality weapons they have.  A steel dagger is the icing on the cake, at most, and seems to function best just by showing off how great he is.

[Mook]

The process of refining metals is f'ing difficult.. but I think powerful organizations, like SALARR would see the profit in selling -more- metal, if it were only a matter of refining it.  I mean, Salarr only has to 'steal' the secrets of smelting/refining -once-.  And then everyone in Zalanthas would have access, at a reasonable price, to metal weapons/tools.

For this reason, I do not believe metal can be acquired from most Zalanthan rocks - those elements just can't be present at appreciable levels.  Because if they were, metal would be seen at a much higher level in-game.  

I'd really love an official yes/no on if smelting Zalanthan rocks works to produce metals, but they seem to like being vague.  Maybe I'll app a high-level Salarri merchant who sends spies around the world to seek-out the origin of noble's and templar's metal weapons.    I don't think he'd discover anything of use though, because it seems like such an obvious and attainable thing to do, that someone would have done it a long time ago.

[creeper386]

I really would like to see more metal items, but not for the general public just special folks.

As long as staff also kept an eye on that sort of thing. Like who has what and such. Because I could see even larger organizations taking out a 'rinthi rat just because he has a metal dagger.

Although, they aren't TOO rare. I know I've owned a metal object in my Arm life time.

Oh, it was a great five minutes.


Creeper

[Marauder Moe]

I think the amount of metal in-game now is fine.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

If you walked into either city-state with a visible metallic weapon, or even a metallic trinket, I'm sure the Templarate would tax you, frame you, plant something on you, or just outright kill you and take it. A smelly-ass halfbreed should almost never own a steel scimitar, simply because there will always be half a thousand people willing to kill him and take it. And in the dog-eat-dog world of Zalanthas, the Templar, nobles, and high-class merchants are the most likely to kill you, and metallic objects (with very few exceptions) will eventually find their way into their hands. Or warehouses.

[Trenidor]

Metal Level is fine...

Iron is the only thing you'll be finding on Zalanthas...

Steel is just iron without the impurities

Stainless steal is steel heat treated just right to make is resistant to damage
Titanium is just several mixtures with removed impurities.
Same with Many other metals

Most people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between sand and metal grainules either

Bronze is easier to make than steel because it's easier to melt and turn them into liquids adding tin and copper together and blending into bronze, but, smelting iron is much more effective.

And yes...bone is actually fun to play with and make sharp and throw at one another.

Obsidian is glass it's easy to make that sharp and dangerous

Also...you might want to know that all metals are different...Steel however, is the strongest so far. I know you might think it's titanium, but titanium is more of a cheap means to have sudden strenght. Steel will last longer under stress, but titanium can hold more for a short period of time.

So in other words...research some more...figure out what metals come from what, then do the following:

Does ____ fit with the game world?
Does ____ improve the game world?
What aspects can be done with ____?
How would ____ effect the world on a large scale?
How would ____ effect the world at the start?

So in other words...introducing more iron, tin, and copper wouldn't be a good idea. What's the point anyways? We have wood bone and glass that works perfectly fine right now for weapons purposes.  And a hell of a lot more things that work better for gizmos.

And also, all zalanthas use a special method of making weapons: 'The chip and carve method' So none of them would understand that you heat up metal, pound it with a hammer, smelt it to remove impurities, hammer it again to shape it, heat it up once more to level out the item, and then buff it, smooth it, and sharpen it. It would be more along the lines of: Use this chissel to carve away the metal. This means the metal is going to be much weaker than your bone and wood because it's grains are all out of wack going in many different directions and not smooth and in order of the length of the item liike you can do with wood grains.

How about you make a character, turn them into a master crafter, put in a request to the best merchant that you'd like some metal you could use to make whatever you're good at crafting. Then wait till you get ahold of some. After that, see what you can make from it, and use your "I'm a mastercrafter so I wanna make this special item from this iron" And submit it to the staff who in turn will change it. Then you can give it away to your favorite templar/noble and become famous.

In conclusion of my rant, and I hate to sound like a prick:
Don't even worry what metals are on Zalanthas, your character wouldn't understand it and apparently neither do you. Once you actually come across some IG, you'll realize it's not all that great, it's just shiney like obsidian only silvery grey in color. I'm guessing no common folk would want the stuff unless they were educated (which most arent) And of those who are educated, only the merchants who deal with the upper class (nobility and such) would be able to sell it for the price of it's rareity. On the other hand, if you're nobility, and you want to have something really rare, you might understand that metal is rare.

PS. Oh, and also...only a magicker would be able to make metalic stuff the way it is made in real life. Non-magickers wouldn't have the brain to light it on fire, and if they did, they wouldn't know what to make a forge out of to get it hot enough. Even if they knew all that it would be extreemly hard to engineer the forge to get enough heat. Once you play a noble with access to a really really deep pit where metal can be found, and that noble is an engineer, and they're good with items that require firing (a potter perhaps) then they might get it in there head to heat up metal and get something done. No one would be lucky enough to stumble upon metal working the way it would actually be useful to them.

PPS. Don't bother mentioning metal on the boards unless you've come across it IG, and even if you did, email the imms first and ask them questions. It's not something to mess with and let's leave the matter at that.

[creeper386]

And also, all zalanthas use a special method of making weapons: 'The chip and carve method' So none of them would understand that you heat up metal, pound it with a hammer, smelt it to remove impurities, hammer it again to shape it, heat it up once more to level out the item, and then buff it, smooth it, and sharpen it. It would be more along the lines of: Use this chissel to carve away the metal. This means the metal is going to be much weaker than your bone and wood because it's grains are all out of wack going in many different directions and not smooth and in order of the length of the item liike you can do with wood grains.

Completely disagree. Metal-working HAS been in the world of Zalanthas. And I believe there stats in the documents that most likely the knowledge is still around, someplace.

Also, if it's so hard to make figure out a forging technique ... Even with abundance like we have on Earth ... How did we figure it out? obviously they can shape metal. They have metal rings that aren't just chiseled ore. Sure magick might be a an easier way to shape it ... Doesn't mean Zalanthans can't do it some other way.


Creeper thinks they still gather water naturally even with water elementalists.

[Mook]

agree@creeper

And like I said in -my- rant:  if there was a level, comparable to ours, of metal ore/dust/whatever in the environment, people -would- be able to harvest and melt it down for use.  Folks figured it out thousands of years BCE, and repeatedly since then in isolated societies.

rar

[Angela Christine]

I once had a half-breed grebber find a corpse with a pair of anakore-claw gloves, and she kept those gloves in her pack most of the time because she was afraid people would target her if they saw the gloves.  At the time everyone wanted anakore clawed gloves, and she obviously wasn't bad ass enough or connected well enough to hold onto anything valuable.  She would have shat herself if she found a corpse with a steel longsword.    For many characters metal is only useful for sell, and sell quickly and quietly, because your life ain't worth spit if people know you have it.  You might as well wear studded leather armor where the studs are made of diamonds.   Hmm, I bet diamond studded armor would be pretty good, actually.  For an unaffiliated commoner looking poor is a survival skill.  Give me shabby-looking clothing and a fast erdlu and the world is my oyster.



There is some metal.  The Highlord decided to make a giant-hood ornament out of steal rather than weapons, and even if that statue is hollow it would have made a hell of a lot of weapons.  But once those weapons are in circulation they WILL fall into the wrong hands.  As an insanely heavy statue he knows where the steel is if he ever wants it, and it stays out of the wrong hands.  

Where did he get all that steel?  Well, it could be really ancient steel that has been recycled from time immemorial, but I have another theory.  Allanak has a huge underground obsidian mine, not just those little chunks PCs use, but the real deal.  While they are underground mining obsidian, occasionally they come accross veins of other stuff.  Don't forget, this is an obsidian mine, which means it was formed from volcanic activity (or perhaps earth-rendingly violent magic) long ago.  Now I may be wrong, but my sense is that heat sufficient to melt silicate rock into glass (obsidian glass) would also be hot enough to melt metalic ores.  In fact, the melting and flowing process could seperate out the metals from eachother and from the stone, in effect working like nature's own smelter.  Mining volcanic rock you might just find nearly pure strains of metals that pooled as the magma cooled.  The metal pockets might even be the real purpose of the mines, with the obsidian itself being merely a useful by-product.  

Then again, I know practically nothing about geology, so take my wild ideas with a grain of salt.


Angela Christine

[wizturbo]

I've seen metal weapons and armor on rare occasion, and it should NOT be common.  Tektolnes' personal guard might be outfitted with steel blades.  A black robe templar might have a steel helmet.  The Commander of a large army might have some metal items to display their rank, and to act as a beacon of morale for their men.  The most wealthy noble and merchant houses might have metallic objects strung about here and there to display their power....

A common person acquiring these items however, would be extremely unlikely.  A common person KEEPING these objects, basically impossible unless they bury it in a hole somewhere and tell no one they ever saw it.

Remember, metal's real use in Zalanthas isn't to be 'used' as much as displayed as a symbol of power, with some small exceptions that require metal that I won't get into on the boards.  If you don't have power, and lots of it, you shouldn't have metal either.

[jmordetsky]

Could you build a tower out of obsidian, bone and stone?

Remember this isn't just about weapons.

What about taking the gemmed into account? Krathi's maybe for working metals, or rukkians for building walls. *shrug* just a few thoughts.

[Trenidor]

Ya...Zalanthas -had- everything at one time...then we all went apocolyptic and lost a ton of things.

We found out in a couple different ways:
1. We figured it out that throwing a rock in boiling lava  turned it into liquid. We figured that out because people lived near volcanos that erupted occationally and that lava dried into solid rock. From there, we decided to make our own volcanos and so they made a round bowl out of rock and put charcoal in made by burning wood for a while and then dousing the fire and letting to dry. From there, they put in special rocks that they found would boil at low temperatures which were shiney and valued for jewlery purposes. One guy that doesn't know that much puts in tin and copper forming bronze after leaving it a while. He makes a little bit stronger of metal and so one guy wants a spearhead out of it because he's rich and the chieftan. Knives are made, they get longer and longer, and eventually you have a sword.

2. The vikings found disolved iron in swamps and scooped it up, set it next to the fire to dry and ended up with hard metal. They figure they can make weapons from it so they mold it, hit it with hammers, and decide it's easy to bend. From there they form weapons of many sizes.

In all cases, you have to have something that Zalanthas doens't really have. Volcanos, if they are still around, would be considered something a magicker did and people would stay away from it. We deffinately don't have mountain caps that disolve iron into the rivers and float it down into swamps. Also....there isn't enough of these 'special rocks' to experiment with.

If you find a clump of gold, you'd probably think it too rare for anything but cerimonial purposes.

Besides, those metal rings you find...how do you know they didn't just carve it out of a chunk and smooth it?

And finnally...Zalanthas aren't dependant on metal in any way. We have better things. Once we have railroads and guns that need that metal then yes, let's add it in. In the mean time, do like I said before and make a mastercrafter. From there you can talk to the staff and waste all the metal you get your hands on trying to figure out what to do with it.

[WarriorPoet]

The one and only time I've had a metal object into my possession, it was for a total of six seconds. Long enough for me to pick it up, stare at it stupidly, then meekly hand it to the Templar next to me, who was looming dangerously.

It was exciting. Almost orgasmic. A brief trail of a finger over it was enough to make my heart thump. This was IT. I wouldn't trade that moment for a hundred shining steel swords, and I think that is the way the staff, and I, want it.

-WP

[Mook]

Trenidor wrote:

Also....there isn't enough of these 'special rocks' to experiment with.

Completely agree.  Though to my logic, this is the only reason metal isn't common.

[jmordetsky]

This is sort of derailing from the original point I wanted to discuss.

We all know *why* there [EDIT: aren't metal items] on Zalanthas from an environmental point of view.

The discussion to be had is, is it realistic that the things we have in Zalanthas contain absolutely 0 metal, and would the game be more or less fun if there was some crude metal available.

Jmordetsky the thread nazi has spoken.

[Maybe42or54]

My opinion on the matter, is that everything has a good amount of Iron concentration, bone, chitin, ivory, claws, all have a higher amount of actual metal concentration that on earth.

[Kalden]

It was exciting. Almost orgasmic. A brief trail of a finger over it was enough to make my heart thump.

Man, you need to get out more.  

We all know *why* there isn't metal on Zalanthas from an environmental point of view.

We do? *scratches his head*

[Rhyden]

We all know *why* there isn't metal on Zalanthas from an environmental point of view.

We do? *scratches his head*

Yes, we do. Zalanthas' primitive technology and sciences aren't advanced enough to discover the process of collecting metal-like substances as well the whereabouts of such minerals. As well, the harsh desert conditions aren't so geographically or geologically efficient for metal-mining. (Just clearing up what jmordetsky's saying, hopefully.)

On another note. Had somebody aquired a sufficient amount of metal, how would it be shaped? Other metal tools? Obsidian? The process of shaping metal without any other metal seems pretty painstaking. Of course, even if Zalanthians have discovered the process of heating metal to form it, this way would also be slow and very difficult.

Just my two obsidian coins.

[lazycritic]

Yes, we do. Zalanthas' primitive technology and sciences aren't advanced enough to discover the process of collecting metal-like substances as well the whereabouts of such minerals. As well, the harsh desert conditions aren't so geographically or geologically efficient for metal-mining.

So you're saying that Allanak has lower technology than ancient Egypt? Interesting thesis, but certainly not common knowledge, and almost certainly disproven by the fact that they do, in fact, have the technology to mine metal  . The huge metal statue is proof of that. You could make the argument, perhaps, that Highlord Tek forgot, but I don't buy it.

I always just figured metals aren't common because, well, they aren't. That's how the world was built. It's like wondering why magick exists. It simply does.

[Forest Junkie]

I always just figured metals aren't common because, well, they aren't. That's how the world was built. It's like wondering why magick exists. It simply does.

That's about the only way it can be explained. 'Just because', heh.

Good post, I agree.

[Rhyden]

Yes, we do. Zalanthas' primitive technology and sciences aren't advanced enough to discover the process of collecting metal-like substances as well the whereabouts of such minerals. As well, the harsh desert conditions aren't so geographically or geologically efficient for metal-mining.

So you're saying that Allanak has lower technology than ancient Egypt? Interesting thesis, but certainly not common knowledge, and almost certainly disproven by the fact that they do, in fact, have the technology to mine metal  . The huge metal statue is proof of that. You could make the argument, perhaps, that Highlord Tek forgot, but I don't buy it.

Actually. Yes. I am saying Allanak has lower technology than all three Kingdoms of Ancient Egypt.

Brief history lesson- Ancient Egypt had advanced mathematics to survey their land using geometry. Egyptians used astrology in order to record organized time using calendars, sun-dials. Egyptians' science allowed them to preform surgery on dead Pharaohs (usually) with the ability of taking the brain out from the head without any damage along with other organs. They could preserve dead bodies with special salts called natron which ensured there would be little decomposition. Egypt's hieroglyphics were almost used by all merchants, nobles and priests closer to the New Kingdom. Common education was available to many.

Egypt's geography is much different than Zalanthas. You wanna know why? The freaking --NILE--, the Red Sea, Mediterranean Sea, the Delta, the fertile crescent (more Mesopotamia, but close enough). I'm not totally sure about the science relating water to metal, but I'm sure that it would have a huge significance as to why Egypt had metal where Zalanthas does not.

As for that statue quite visible to most Allanakis, whether it's hollow or not, it was made many, many, many years back when metal wasn't so rare. As for how it was obtained, I have no idea, perhaps mining. If it was obtained through mining, I think it would be reasonable to say that either Zalanthians have mined out the entire Known World, haven't cared to look in some places, or the technology was lost through time.

[lazycritic]

I am saying Allanak has lower technology than all three Kingdoms of Ancient Egypt.

There are things you don't know about Allanak.  :wink:

I don't think it takes super-high technology to get refine bronze. Most ancient civilizations in the Fertile Crescent were able to do it. If Zalanthas had abundant bronze, it would do it too.

I'm not totally sure about the science relating water to metal, but I'm sure that it would have a huge significance as to why Egypt had metal where Zalanthas does not.

There's no reason that to be related. I've never heard of water creating metal. Think about the chemicals involved. I highly doubt there is any connection. Thing is, people who create fantasy worlds are not necessarily science buffs. A fantasy world is fanciful. As FJ said, there's no metal "just because".

[Linedel]

Iron is the only thing you'll be finding on Zalanthas...

Steel is just iron without the impurities

Stainless steal is steel heat treated just right to make is resistant to damage
Titanium is just several mixtures with removed impurities.
Same with Many other metals

This is totally wrong.

Iron is an element.

Steel is several of many iron alloys, mixed with other elements (carbon being the most prevalent) to form a crystal structure that is harder and less brittle than pure iron.  The process used to make it, exactly how you cool the blade after heating, how fast it cools, how hot your heat source was, etc., are all as important, if not moreso than the exact ratio of what you add.  Not all iron alloys are steel.

Titanium is an element.


Seaching the internet is a pain in the ass... this is the best I could find on page 1 of google...  If you want to know more about this, find a materials science textbook at your library, or harass your local engineering major to let you borrow theirs.

http://www.bondhus.com/metallurgy/body-2.htm

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
If what your saying is true metal weapons and armors wouldn't exist -at all-. Your argument is like saying that we shouldn't use obsidian for weapons for the same reasoning...think about it.


Obsidian is plentiful, so the reasoning does not apply at all.

Down south this is true, not up north.

[jhunter]

If you walked into either city-state with a visible metallic weapon, or even a metallic trinket, I'm sure the Templarate would tax you, frame you, plant something on you, or just outright kill you and take it. A smelly-ass halfbreed should almost never own a steel scimitar, simply because there will always be half a thousand people willing to kill him and take it. And in the dog-eat-dog world of Zalanthas, the Templar, nobles, and high-class merchants are the most likely to kill you, and metallic objects (with very few exceptions) will eventually find their way into their hands. Or warehouses.

True, and I see absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. If anything it would add to rp opportunities.

[Anonymous]

I totally agree.

[Trenidor]

Back to what the real topic is supposed to cover....

I don't think bronze is really needed to introduce...unless you've found a ton other metals with your master crafter character and you've already made everything on the list of metalics.

[fearwig]

Yeah. Zalanthas is better with limitations. Metal needs to be one of those limitations, in my opinion. People see rarity and they think the game would somehow be better if that thing weren't rare. It's just nuts. You can't combine IC wants with OOC wants like that. I don't see the point.

[Maybe42or54]

And with it being Rare.
I can play a game like.. Ninja Gaiden and pretend I was in Tuluk.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

jhunter wrote:

True, and I see absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. If anything it would add to rp opportunities.

Yes, I was hoping that was implied by what I said. That's the way I like it, that's the way things should work. Thanks for pointing that out, heh.
jmordetsky wrote:

The discussion to be had is, is it realistic that the things we have in Zalanthas contain absolutely 0 metal, and would the game be more or less fun if there was some crude metal available.

To the first part of the question, I would say: yes, I think it's realistic to the gameworld. I'd also like to clarify and say that there is metal on Zalanthas. Enough for even relatively minor nobles to have rings made of the stuff.
We can discuss all the chemistry and metallurgy you'd like. I don't care if it's almost impossible to make metal with Zalanthan products, or if it's something you could do in a seventh grade science class. The simple fact is that in order to make metal, work metal, and shape metal, you need to know how to do it. Even if the materials and conditions for doing so are abundant, I doubt the knowledge is. There's a reason the commoners are kept ignorant. With the way the Known World works, knowledge of blacksmithing would be kept to an elite few.
While it might be a little unrealistic that no one's had the bright idea to melt a bunch of rocks together and whack it with a hammer, I don't think it's entirely beyond belief, given the limited education in the gameworld. Suspend your disbelief a little bit, people. No metal is not as ludicrous as magick, a sea of silt, or ants the size of SUVs.
As for cheap metal, I don't think its a big issue. Sure, if a templar character is walking around with a bronze sword instead of a steel one, I have no problem with that. I might even like it... the steel swords would, realistically, go to the black robes, not some glorified crossing gaurd in a blue robe. But a bronze sword might be within their reach.
If you're talking about a lot more metal, even with lower-quality metal objects, and enough for commoners to realistically have them, then I'd have to say no thank you. Currently, characters who should be poor often have access to great sources of wealth, whether through quirks in the code or outright twinkage. And the day when dusty northern hunters and shit-covered 'Rinthers are walking around flashing bronze daggers is the day when Armageddon loses a chunk of its unique flavor.
In short: different types of cruder metal are okay, but they should still only belong to the elite. High-ranking merchants, nobles, templars, and military officials.

[Rhyden]

I did a little research concerning Egypt's metal source which was really discovered by the Assyrians and then later picked up by the Egyptians through invasion.

Anyways, the Assyrians came around Asia Minor which is composed greatly of mountainous areas where mines could be found to mine various forms of metal from such as bronze, copper and iron.

What I'm thinking is metal is available in Zalanthas around the mountain-type areas (around the north mainly), its just unreachable codedly to any player.

Whether or not metal really is rare or just unaccessable due to code or geographical physicalities, we'll probably never know.

[Anael]

Bronze an iron were 'discovered' later, most anceint nations used metal that was much easier to shape - copper. Even with copper, some of the sharpest tools (knives, razors) were made of flint and not metal. Stone can be -damn- sharp, but brittle. Copper (and bronze or iron too, to lesser degree) is prone to bending and misshaping.
I remember seeing a documentary (BBC, methinks) where one guy skinned a rabbit using flint shards only... don't underestimate stones (especially those thrown at you)!

[fearwig]

I'm going to assume that was a typo. Did you mean flint or stone, by "steel"?

Either one, I think, can have the desired qualities.

[drasik]

Alright, I have worked with both flint and obsidian IRL.

Flint when knapped correctly is extremely sharp but very brittle, but you can seriously cut some things up. I saw a guy who was knapping flint have to go to the hospital for stitches when he messed up and cut down to the bone.

Obsidian, now this is VERY sharp, sharper than flint can get because basically it's glass. I have actually made a knife from obsidian because I was weird as a child. It was good, but was no where near as strong as steel.

Steel, can potentially be sharp enough to cleave through bones and shit. There are mastermade swords that can cleave through just about anything, but here on Zalanthas, it is the rarest commodity and I doubt there is anyone capable enough to actually craft a sword near that.

There, there's some info on other things many people don't consider when playing Armageddon but I do. Maybe this helps, maybe it doesn't.

[fearwig]

I've got to go with you here--people seem to underplay the absolute usefulness of those items.

But... there is a reason they fell out of favor as technology progressed--like you said, brittle as hell. I remember a documentary on central america and the conquistadors describing the value of each form of weaponry against the other group's soldiers--the locals used obsidian shards embedded in wood clubs as sort of makeshift swords. The problem here is that, while these will cut flesh like butter, they will shatter to pieces when parried with a metal sword or when they strike metal armor.

The brittle nature of these swords isn't really reflected by the game to much of a degree, which always seemed kind of bogus to me. I'd like to see 'sid swords shatter now and then, or crack, while bone ones, though less sharp, last longer, et cetera. Chitin or even hard leather would have a good chance to wear a 'sid weapon down, with time, at least enough to crack a sharpened edge, if not the weapon as a whole.

That said, clothes don't tatter nearly as easily as they should, either. If you take a nasty gash to the chest, your shirt is ripped, bub. Useful still, sure, but ripped. Would have to take a check as to what kind of damage is taken, though--blunt stuff wouldn't damage anything soft, for instance, et cetera. But then I have a knack for micromanagement, so maybe this isn't really necessary in the game. Even that aside, these are both pretty much dead horses.

[Maybe42or54]

There was a short time there when I was an independant hunter..
Every couple of fights I shattered my obsidian sword.

[Trenidor]

Edited by Quetesh


One of the things I play armageddon for is because it's so different than any other thing. Maybe I'm the one with the problem here and I'm being selfish for not wanting metal, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that it states in the docs that metal is scarce.

[Maybe42or54]

Wow. You almost made me cry Trenidor.

I'd add that he may need the One of a kind piece of equipment so that he can feel he acomplished something in game.

But other than that, I agree with trenidor.

[Socko]

Everyone wants metal.

That doesn't mean you'll get it.

[Spud]

I always thought metal was so sought after, that people would kill for it. Riots would break out in cities and hundreds would die, just because of the metal. Metal would mean extreme wealth for anyone that had it, and everyone wants money. The average commoner is supposed to be poor,  maybe even starving so if the chance of making any money came up they would probably die trying. And when a large amount of money can be made, anything would be thought conceivable except maybe attacking a templar (Unless they were crazy, which some may be...although the idea itself of getting metal may be enough to drive them crazy). What I'm trying to say is that metal would not work in any society with the exception of templars and nobles.
This is all my own personal opinion, feel free to jab at it.

[jhunter]

Edited by Qetesh


Armageddon was originally based off Darksun and in that setting way back when those of us -true- vets started playing it was much closer to that setting. Metals were rare...but not ULTRA rare. There is a big difference between them being rare and almost non-existant in the hands of pcs. Back in those days, there were conflicts caused because of those things and now NOTHING is caused by the existance of them. Back in those days...there was conflict over material things WAY more than there is now. It was taken away to make things more civil in an OOC fashion IMHO. The game was more fun and more active back then.

It's because of sissy bitches that the game is really become less harsh and active compared to what it used to be in the old days.

"Ohhh, let's sit and tavern bitch and that's really good RP instead of flat out destructive and death-dealing RP that made Arm the game it was supposed to be today."


The tavern sitters...the proactive, murdering,lying, cheating,backstabbing,double-dealing MOTHERFUCKINGSONSOFBITCHES are what made Arm really stand out. RP is first and foremost, but a lot of avenues of RP have been fucked up by the immortals catering to whining little wusses who want everything to be civil and "fair" from an OOC standpoint. And In My Most Honest Opinion have degraded the game from what it used to be in the old days.

Let's take metals and make what's already RARE and make them ultra rare so as to not cause any conflicts.

You are fucking sissies.

I'd welcome the entertainment and conflicts that would be introduced by the lessening of rarity of useful metals in the game. Right now, the game is sleeping deeply compared to what it used to be. And it is because of the fears of "disrupting" things for material gain.
Hey, check this out...material gain...is a "REALISTIC" source of conflict.

Anyway, you don't like what I have to say tough shit. Nothing you say will get me to respond to this again. Dock me karma...whatever...I don't give a flying fuck about karma anyway. I hardly use the karma I have.

I think this is the most HONEST response any vets to the game can give. Psssh, I remember when living beyond 20 days was a chore...now it's commonplace...even for some newbies.

Almost ready to stop playing unless things go back toward harsher days. The game is really beginning to lose some of it's BEST aspects. I can get good RP other places...in as harsh of a setting as it used to be...doubtful.

Sorry, but dammit...I personally think the game is getting crappier and losing some of what made it great as things go on. The code is getting better the conflicts and happenings in game are getting lame.

[wizturbo]

First off, Jhunter, Doctor Wiz proscribes you at least a six pack of beers *points to the fridge*  Drink.


Second, even though the post was written in frustration and obviously wasn't "pulling any punches" I have to say I agree with Jhunter's opinion.  I'm not a "vet" the date i made this gdb name is the time i started playing, but I definitely see less conflict over more mundane things then I'd like.

Do I think that making metal attainable by PC's should occur, yes, though not by the spawn on saturday method of some rare materials.  I think these sort of items should be added in more delibrate ways.  I mean direct imm-support on something like that.  An imm randomly assigns a nugget of metal to be found at a certain obsidian deposit.  An imm has an NPC raider die in a gortok cave, with a steel dagger in his backpack.  Scenarios such as that, purposely made to spicen things up, but in no way an exploitable cycle.

If you don't want your precious PC to die, don't try and hold on to said metal item.  The reason metal is a symbol of power, is because it claims you've the power to not only buy, but PROTECT the metal you own.  A warrior with a steel sword reflects that the woman holding it is as deadly as the blade itself.

[flurry]

I have a hard time believing that the rarity of metal is contributing to a lack of conflict in the world.  We've got a lot of really creative people here - why does the conflict have to be over metal and not something else?

If you want more IC conflict, see what you can do to make that happen yourself through your own characters.   Try to encourage others to do the same.  Praise the kinds of things that you like when you see them.

[Linedel]

Armageddon was originally based off Darksun and in that setting way back when those of us -true- vets started playing it was much closer to that setting. Metals were rare...but not ULTRA rare.

Back in the day, my sorcerer had 2 bronze maces, and one iron one, all bought from Salarr NPCs.  He also had a belt full of potion-fruits bought from the Allanaki potion shop.

The past was not "better," it was different.  And if that's closer to Dark Sun (which I'm really not getting... I've never played it (which is subject to the specific GM anyways), but I've read all the published game materials), then, uh, Dark Sun is a weaker setting than I thought.

Armageddon's metal level is fine; the posters that said your conflict level is based on other things are right.

[Akaramu]

I disagree. I find the game harsh enough as it is, and I see plenty of conflict. I have not ever had a 20+ day PC, I find it hard enough to break 10, and no I dont do stupid crap such as being rude to templars.  :wink:

Keep in mind that not everyone has learned all the tricks and strategies to be long-lived. Honestly... if you knew that there is a secret cult of magickers who track down and kill anyone with a specific kind of tattoo, which is readily available, would you get that tattoo for your ignorant PC or pick a different one?

We already dont have too many new players who stick around. I know of a few who might have been great roleplayers but found the starting experience to be too harsh and frustrating. I dont know what the mud was like 6 years ago, but I doubt I would have wanted to play it with even more harshness. I enjoy living my usual meager 10 days played. I can only bear going through the pain of making new contacts to the point I'm having fun again and that maddening practice of the way so often.

If you dont feel challenged, perhaps play more challenging roles? I could think of a few concepts that are likely to die at under 5 days.  :twisted:

[jhunter]

I'm not saying it's the source of all conflict loss, just one source that used to cause alot of conflict. I'm also not saying I want it to go back to when it was common either, that would defeat the whole purpose...I'd just like to see more along the lines of what Wiz said. Just a little taster thrown in here and there to cause some shit basically.

I remember a time when it was just rare, and things weren't nearly as burglar-proof as they are now...when a burglar stole a metal blade from a noble's house. Alot of fun stuff came about because of that.

[LBO]

Armageddon was originally based off Darksun and in that setting way back when those of us -true- vets started playing it was much closer to that setting.

Yeah and back when you -true- vets started playing halfings used to pal around with everybody, mantis could hang around in major cities and people used to travel in groups with magickers. So what? The game has evolved, become more complex since then.

Back in those days...there was conflict over material things WAY more than there is now. It was taken away to make things more civil in an OOC fashion IMHO. The game was more fun and more active back then.

Fun for those who like PKing people for their equipment. He's got a bronze mace.. kill him! She's got a steel dagger.. kill her! Hardly monumental RP. Oh, and there are plenty of things in this game that people will kill each other over. Why does it have to be metal? Why not kill that half-elf with the fancy full tembo-hide armour set? Thats worth over a year's salary to a clanned PC. If you want to play the kind of character whose reason for living is PKing others for the gear then go and do it. Personally, I'm happier that the game has evolved into something more than that.

The tavern sitters...the proactive, murdering,lying, cheating,backstabbing,double-dealing MOTHERFUCKINGSONSOFBITCHES are what made Arm really stand out. RP is first and foremost, but a lot of avenues of RP have been fucked up by the immortals catering to whining little wusses who want everything to be civil and "fair" from an OOC standpoint.

As opposed to what? Being uncivil and unfair from an OOC standpoint? Hmm, bad call by the Imms eh? Anyway, there are plenty of those dodgy people in Arm. I've met quite a few. There is nothing stopping you either from making and playing the kind of character you want.

You are fucking sissies.

Aww, poor you. The only tough guy left in a world of sissies.

I'd welcome the entertainment and conflicts that would be introduced by the lessening of rarity of useful metals in the game. Right now, the game is sleeping deeply compared to what it used to be. And it is because of the fears of "disrupting" things for material gain.
Hey, check this out...material gain...is a "REALISTIC" source of conflict.

Material gain is a realistic source of conflict. Its happening right now in the game I can assure you. If its not happening as much as before right down at the grebber v. grebber level that is something that is up to the players. There are lots of players out there with nice looking armours and swords, others with jewellery dripping from them. If you want the IG world to be so grasping all the time for material things then your character should be going after these kind of people too. Why should metal suddenly make you go ballistic and jumping on everybody? Its down to the players to decide what they want to do. The rewards for playing a character that is out to grab as much as they possibly can however they can are still very high. Or is metal the only thing that can possibly awaken the killer in all of us?

I think this is the most HONEST response any vets to the game can give. Psssh, I remember when living beyond 20 days was a chore...now it's commonplace...even for some newbies.

Maybe some people have taken to playing their characters more realistically and decided that attacking somebody just to loot them of their nice gear might actually be a bit dangerous for their character? Maybe people want to play something else than a PKing raider / mugger? Maybe the game has evolved to the point where the amount of people engaged in that activity is a more normal percentage of the overall game population? Maybe more players are taking the advice that wandering the desert alone really is actually very dangerous? Also, people are living longer now because of realism code tweaks e.g. gith groups not sending a volley of spears at one unlucky bastard in a group of people and instead throwing them at random targets.

Almost ready to stop playing unless things go back toward harsher days. The game is really beginning to lose some of it's BEST aspects.

Its best aspects in your opinion. It sounds like you are looking for in your face conflict, the on the edge feeling that at any moment somebody is going to jump you and try and take your shiny gear. Its still there but it is reduced and in my opinion this is an improvement. There is still plenty of death and destruction. Since I've joined Arm I've seen the retaking of Tuluk, the fall and subsequent retaking of Luirs, the troubles from the 'rinth, the recent RPTs that have culled quite large numbers of characters. Anyway, conflict for material gain is completely up to the players - if you want it go and get it. Don't complain if others want to do something else with their characters though - its as much their game as it is yours.

Sorry, but dammit...I personally think the game is getting crappier and losing some of what made it great as things go on. The code is getting better the conflicts and happenings in game are getting lame.

The conflicts that you enjoy are being reduced. From my point of view I'm seeing a lot of conflict happening. If you want to have your conflict go and make it somewhere. Make a raiding clan, claim a piece of territory to be your own, grab a corner in the 'rinth and tell the Guild to piss off or whatever. The Imms are not going to step in your way. They'll keep things realistic but that should be fine no? I get the feeling that you're pining for the days when the players had at their fingertips some very wide ranging powers, when a PC noble could make and break relations with other houses and do whatever they liked on a whim and certain clans created so much havoc that they had to be closed. I would hazard that this shift in policy towards a realistic level of PC nobles' and clans' powers did lead to less overt PvP conflict as nobles are less likely to simply say, "Kill that Borsail Lord's aide today for me hmm?", knowing that there are many other considerations to take into account. It still happens enough though - its simply more realistic. This is a good thing in my opinion

Players complaining that fact that conflict over material things has reduced is like players complaining that they're bored - do something about it yourself, be proactive and make the conflict that you want. The game has evolved and is better for it overall in my opinion. The fact that the the numbers playing Arm has steadily risen over the past few years suggests to me that the Imms and players are doing something right.

[jhunter]

LBO, you're just not paying attention. Your taking something completely different out of what I'm saying and trying to make it sound like I'm saying something I'm not. If you don't comprehend, don't bother responding k thanks.

[Ghost]

OK... I got the feeling, that some opiions state that introducing more metals to the game is going to bring some RP opportunities.

I don't see that.

The ultra rarity of the metals bring a lot of conflict already.  Just for example, one of my PCs ended up with something metal.. Not weapon.. Not armor... Not ring.. And it is so useless it can only cause my PC some weight, and nothing else.  Yet, I felt special for having it.  I felt special, powerful, lucky for carrying it.  I felt the importance of hiding it and showing it no one else, other than my truly most trusted ones.  And I could fight all Allanak not to return it to someone that "deserves" it.

Now seriously.. Does this not sound like a RP opportunity?
Do I actually have to see more people having the metal in useless shape?  And do I have to see some other type of metal (weapon/armor) as something rare and precious to get some RP opportunity?

Aside from that...

If there is an opinion, that says "metals should be there so that we can have some RP opportunity, stealing something that precious, or raiding/assassinating/mugging people for something that precious".. I say there is already such an option.  Not metal, but the rarity and the expense of the special crafts from Salarr/Kadius/Kurac already presents such an opportunity.  There are weapons valuing over 3000+ coins.  Which makes the sum of approximately ten year of work of an average commoner.. Or maybe two year total salarry of a random noble guard.
If there is a request for obtaining precious and rare items, it is there.

Or.. If people want to claim metal, still assassinating a noble and taking off his/her silver ring gives you that opportunity as well.  It is a useless tool, having a silver ring, but a steel sword is equally useless in my opinion.  
It only says, "you did something big and you were lucky to have it and perhaps you are fool or really powerful to carry something like that and you will soon die and lose it if you don't hide it carefully and show it noone."

[LBO]

LBO, you're just not paying attention. Your taking something completely different out of what I'm saying and trying to make it sound like I'm saying something I'm not. If you don't comprehend, don't bother responding k thanks.

Umm, I'll respond if I want to cheers.

Perhaps I did misunderstand the type of conflict that you are looking and it wasn't my intention to put words in your mouth. The general point of my post remains the same nonetheless: if you want more conflict of any kind the surest way to get it is to make it yourself. The Imms will back you up once you keep them informed and its realistic.

With regard to the Imms giving out "tastes" like you mentioned in your other post - they already do this. I've had a few very rare items go through some of my characters' hands and they were certainly not nobles or anything like it. These items did generate conflict around my character. Also, I seem to remember Sanvean (I think?) posting a good while back about the frustration on the part of the Imms regarding players who upon finding rare items would hoard them in the safest place they could find and show them to absolutely nobody thereby avoiding the very conflict that the Imms hoped to generate with them.

The Imms create storylines that do create conflict. But they need us, the players, to play our bit too and make our own storylines. If there has been a reduction in the overall level of conflict I would say that the increase in the number of clans spread out over the gameworld without a corresponding big enough jump in playerbase is the biggest contributor. Putting a large number together of people in one place has the natural effect of ratcheting up the conflict level a few notches. If there are fewer people in an area it gets harder to generate conflict in my opinion. But then we're getting into the whole number of clans debate and we've already got a few threads dedicated to that  :wink:

[jhunter (at work)]

It's just that I remember an experience a long time ago where a burglar had stolen an iron dagger (or something like that) from a noble's estate. He made a deal in an alley and sold it to a pretty powerful pc merchant who then took it to the other city and made a deal of his own. There's alot more that happened during all of this and was surrounding this whole thread that came from a simple burglary...it was so much fun and I miss that those things don't really happen any more. Just about everything out there is attainable some other way, so it's like "Why risk getting killed with no real potential for any gain?"


Sure, you "could" murder a noble for their signet ring...but to what end? That would make less sense than if the object was not only valuable and rare...but useful as well.

I guess I'm having a hard time explaining what I'm trying to get at.

I just think that -anything- that can create conflict is a good thing. Sure, it's not the only thing that can, but I've seen it create conflict and some interesting things.

Not much opportunity for someone to basically steal a trunk full of obsidian or possibility really.

The greater the reward, the more apt people will be to take the risks. Small things made of metals that are useful and not easily marked with symbols from a house and such create opportunities.

Crap, it would be something to work for to get ahold of something like that so you could sell it for a wagonload of 'sid to a noble or wealthy merchant. I think it would be alot of fun to play out all of that stuff on any part of it.

[Maybe42or54]

As I see it, Armageddon was based on America to well.


America is all about symbolism. So is Zalanthas.
They use a form of currency that is actually quite worthless, but valuable because they say it is.
It is full of people trying to get payed, through torturing, bribing, killing, maiming, and stealing from their competitors.
It has the south (China) who is all about torturing and doing what ever they want prety bluntly.
And then the north (America), is all about secrecy, has many of the same problems as the north (such as killings, largescale bribery, Corrupt leaders headed by god knows what) And at the same time, the general populace is all about not hurting anyone and just getting from day to day.

They have an "old" city-state that doesn't exist anymore that was in severe competition against Allanak, Russia or Stineal(sp?)

A lot of tribes that speak their own language, but noone really cares.

[Trenidor]

What does that have to do with Metal?

Practically you can say any country is one of the two major cities...

Allanak could be England, Red storm is Ireland; in the sence that ireland was once british ruled until it rebelled just like red storm.

Tuluk could be germany, where magickers are jewish.

Blackwing could be hondoras, thaiwan, even china, just because they make nifty little toys and beads.

Luirs could be any number of things, including spain durring Its peak of trade when it controlled sea power.

So really, relating something to one country isn't fair...

Zalanthas is alot like earth in this sence more than anything in partiucular.

[Maybe42or54]

It's fair to me.

It was my opinion.