Roleplaying Being Stolen From

[Anonymous Thief]

If someone successfully steals from you, do you feel justified if you RP knowing who the culprit was based on who is (visible to you) in the room?  For example, if you are in a tavern with only one (visible) PC and you lose an item just then, chances are highly probable it was the PC.  But do you feel it's okay to then accuse the PC in question, ignoring the virtual crowds and the fact that the thief succeeded in his/her skill?

If you ask me, I think the only occasion where it may be warranted is when the thief in question critically or non-critically fails the skill (or I guess if they admit their guilt through emote or words) but I wanted to see what the rest of you thought.  

Unfortunately this is a situation which requires separating OOC knowledge from IC knowledge and most players prove, time and time again, that they are incapable of this.  In fact, to date, I can only recall one single player who has ever been responsible enough to roleplay not knowing who was stealing from them despite the fact that they (more than likely) knew who it was OOCly.

So since (in my experience) most players blatantly bypass a thief's successful steal attempt, I wanted to hear it from all of you whether you think it's OK or not and if so why.

[Marauder Moe]

If the code tells me I see a hooded figure running/stealthing out of the room I don't see why my character wouldn't assume that was the one.  Also my character might go ahead and accuse the nearest elf or 'rinther of the theft.  Yes, it may be a little unfair that I'd go for the PCs first instead of the (v)NPCs, but PCs make for better roleplay.

[Cuusardo]

If it's a shady looking PC, perhaps a PC that you KNOW to be a thief because you or someone you know caught or watched this PC get caught, or if that PC starts to look nervous or leaves when you realize you've been stolen from, it's justifiable to accuse that PC.  Suspicious behavior and all.

If that PC isn't doing anything suspicious, you've no reason to accuse it.  Keep in mind that there may be hidden PCs in that room that you might not be able to see, as well as all the VNPCs.

[Forest Junkie]

But do you feel it's okay to then accuse the PC in question, ignoring the virtual crowds and the fact that the thief succeeded in his/her skill?

This is an excellent question. I feel that it really depends upon the situation though.

1) If your pc is in an extremely crowded area, brushes against someone, and immediately moves back into the flow of the patrons, how could the victim possibly pick your pc out of a crowd of possible dozens, or hundreds. Again, this situation is open to debate, because you as the thief do not know if the victim has exceptional powers of observation, such as listen/scan/etc. I personally believe it poor play though for a pc to automagickally blame yours for the simple fact that there is no other visible pc around.

2) If your pc is in an area nearly devoid of crowds, and steals from someone, I would find it perfectly reasonable for the victim to blame yours, given that they realized this particular item was "just recently" lifted off of them.

Unfortunately this is a situation which requires separating OOC knowledge from IC knowledge and most players prove, time and time again, that they are incapable of this.

I agree, though again, one cannot make such assumptions based on observations made through IC events. You really have to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt, unless they are just making it blatantly obvious they are cheating.

I would love to start seeing more thieves botch their attempts on purpose even if they are perfect "code-wise", as well as victims roleplaying their characters not having the faintest idea whom nicked their shit. I did it once, and the situation played out nicely. I do believe giving your pc "flaws" will enhance your overall experience. This is meant for both sides to consider.

[Anonymous Thief]

I think the important thing for thief victims to realize is that, unless you're a newbie, you probably know full well how to make yourself 100% steal-proof.  It's not that hard.  This knowledge alone puts us all way ahead of the pickpockets of Zalanthas.  If you lost something, it's probably your own fault so why not give the thief a break by pretending you don't know (since, ICly, you probably wouldn't).  Blatantly obvious instances like a 'Rinth elf somehow sneaking into the Trader's Inn and making a show of himself notwithstanding, a successful steal attempt is a successful steal attempt and it would be fair for us to consider the tremendous advantage we have over PC thieves.  If (more) NPC pickpockets wandered the city streets all the time, it would be a lot harder to point out that one elf, or that one Rinther, whenever an item suddenly vanishes from your inventory, since there may be more than one suspect!  If it's just some pickpocketing NPC that duped you, chances are you'll just suck it up and roll with the bunches, whereas if it's a PC you'll probably proceed to tell your employers, your employer's employers, the templarate, and every assassin between here and the other side of the world, all so they can exact vengeance on one lone, very unimportant thief.  So again, I implore you all, fellow players, to consider the fact that (most of) you know full well how to make yourselves 100% impervious to thieves.  Ask yourself the next time you're stolen from whose fault it is you just got robbed and if maybe, just maybe, you should be fair enough to honor the thief's successful swipe.

[Armaddict]

One thing to note:

If you're from the 'rinth, you very likely dress like one.  Most of the 'virtual crowd' may be poor, but they don't look as scummy, either.

If a 'rinther is seen somewhere in a group of commoners, and one of those commoners ends up saying, "Hey, someone stole my shit," who is going to be the one to blame?  The 'rinther.

This is why thieves have to be a little smarter.  Find those who are distracted, and -won't- notice.  Don't steal after already being spotted.  And don't expect that just because you're in a crowded tavern, -everyone- will give you the benefit of the doubt...because the 'rinther is always the one who will get the blame.

That can give you some ideas on how to cover yourself up, too.

[Cuusardo]

I would think the same thing would go for elves as well as rinthers.  If someone feels a hand in their pockets and there is one elf in the room, chances are their eyes are going to go straight to the elf.

[Larrath]

Most eyes will (as they should) go to the elf, but people should also remember that there are nearly as many elves around as there are humans.

I doubt any tavern big tavern is going to have less than six elves inside it at any given time.  Elves like to sit and talk and drink ale, too.

[The angry victim]

The main reason why people accuse the PC there is that mainly PC's are stealing the things from their inventory, without regarding the emotes of the victim. Say, one takes something from pack and holds it out to other PC. -the item is in their hands IC'ly because they have emoted that way- So they type *give item other* getting the message *you dont have that item*..
Is that a good way of RP'ing?

Or.. They remove the item and hand it out to the other. It would be OK, before removing.. But if I think I'm holding an item in my hands and notice that its not there.. I would accuse you.. Sorry..

[Forest Junkie]

Anyone who snatches something right out of your hands after you have purposefully emoted handing it to someone definitely scores a 9.5 on the "Cheesy shit-o-meter".

If something like that did happen to me, I would consider that one other pc in the room fair game.

Again, these situations are all relative, and dependent upon many factors.

[spawnloser]

FJ, the problem is that it is very likely that the person that stole from you is hidden.  Blaming a PC when there are a multitude of other NPCs and VNPCs around is singling a player out...for no reason other than that they are a PC.  This is using OOC knowledge IG.

Remind me to play a really sneaky thief some day, because it seems that if I'm hidden, noone will ever blame me of theft, but the random other PC that's around.

Oh, and on another note, there are NPCs that'll try to pick your pocket too.  Think on that.

[amoeba]

Most eyes will (as they should) go to the elf, but people should also remember that there are nearly as many elves around as there are humans.

I doubt any tavern big tavern is going to have less than six elves inside it at any given time.  Elves like to sit and talk and drink ale, too.

I agree, with one exception. I don't believe the thief should be given a 100% free ride based on the arguement that there were "no less than six elves" in the tavern.  maybe something about this particular elf caught your eye. Does that mean you should 100% always be able to pick him out of the crowd? Of course not. RP it how you see fit given the situation.  I am still of the mindset that a "smart" thief will make sure you the player, never notices.

[Forest Junkie]

FJ, the problem is that it is very likely that the person that stole from you is hidden.  Blaming a PC when there are a
multitude of other NPCs and VNPCs around is singling a player out...for no reason other than that they are a PC.  This is using OOC knowledge IG

Oh I agree spawnloser. But, if a pc steals from me after having observed me emote handing the item to someone, then you're damned right I'm going to point at the first elf or pc I see who even looks shady.

Here are my first arguments:

1) If your pc is in an extremely crowded area, brushes against someone, and immediately moves back into the flow of the patrons, how could the victim possibly pick your pc out of a crowd of possible dozens, or hundreds. Again, this situation is open to debate, because you as the thief do not know if the victim has exceptional powers of observation, such as listen/scan/etc. I personally believe it poor play though for a pc to automagickally blame yours for the simple fact that there is no other visible pc around.

2) If your pc is in an area nearly devoid of crowds, and steals from someone, I would find it perfectly reasonable for the victim to blame yours, given that they realized this particular item was "just recently" lifted off of them.

[Anonymous Victim]

But do you feel it's okay to then accuse the PC in question, ignoring the virtual crowds and the fact that the thief succeeded in his/her skill?

Absolutely, without a doubt, and I don't think it makes me a poor player.

The simple fact is, I don't log on and play Arm to interact with the virtual crowds.  My character does that just fine while I'm offline, out having a beer with my friends.

Unless you're a staff member, the virtual world is a poor measure for anything.  Only the staff can say for certain what's going on - sometimes they do that in the room descriptions, but not always.  So your virtual tavern packed with bodies rubbing against each other in some orgiastic mosh pit might well be my virtual dive tavern full of a whole three drunks, including the two of us.

There are ways that thief PCs can steal from others without getting caught, and if you can steal from my character without me knowing who it was, then you've pulled off a good, successful theft.  Plenty of people have done this in the past.

If the virtual world defense was applied universally, this game wouldn't be that much fun because we players infer things based off of the actions of other players all the time.  You saw a dead body?  Probably just a virtual murderer on the loose.

[Larrath]

I don't know about you, Victim, but I'd rather have someone emote brushing up to me and snaking their hand inside my cloak to grab something from my belt instead of just being the target to yet another "steal coins man;sneak;north" thing.

The same goes with being shadowed.

[mansa]

What is the echo when:

You try and steal from someone, but their guards stop you.  For you nobles, what does it say to YOU?

To the thief, it echos:

"You try but his/her guards prevent you from getting close."

[pot_of_stew]

I don't know about you, Victim, but I'd rather have someone emote brushing up to me and snaking their hand inside my cloak to grab something from my belt instead of just being the target to yet another "steal coins man;sneak;north" thing.

The same goes with being shadowed.

Yeah, I'd like that too. 'cept someone told me once that there are people that will instantly react to an emote that says someone or stuff.

[Anonymous Thief]

I feel obliged to point out that this post has nothing to do with any IC events nor any specific player.  Rather, I'm making a statement towards an age old trend which is to take advantage of successful steal attempts.  Years ago a newbie roleplayed KNOWNIG I robbed him (despite that he was unconscious at the time) based on the fact that I was the only PC in the room.  The next thing I knew there were 2 noble houses and a merchant house (not to mention the templarate) hunting me down, all for one very petty incident.

And while Cuusardo makes a good point here:

I would think the same thing would go for elves as well as rinthers. If someone feels a hand in their pockets and there is one elf in the room, chances are their eyes are going to go straight to the elf.

I would still be careful not to use this argument in every scenario, as many (or dare I say most) locations are equipped with NPC elves as well.

I'm not advocating against accusing the culprit of an obvious scenario.  A Rinth elf (or similar persona) sneaks into the Trader's Inn or waltzes himself merrily on into the Sanctuary, he can expect all fingers to point his way the instant someone's item has gone missing.  Of course.  But not every instance of theft rotates around this kind of setting.  The purpose of my post was to make a general statement against the way most players tend to respond to theft.  If you've been stolen from in game recently, don't necessarily assume it was me (though you never know, but still).

[Anonymous Thief]

As an addendum:

I think the sad thing is that the way most players respond to being stolen from seems to suggest that all the thieves of the game world should only steal when they are hidden and not emoting (in other words, when you have no clue he was ever there).  The next time I make a thief character, what insentive do I have to steal while remaining in sight?  Realistically, I think the easiest way you can pickpocket someone is when you ARE in sight but unfortunately the behavior of many seems to suggest they would rather you hide;steal item;sneak;n;n;n.

In regards to respecting the victim's emotes, I think this can only be dealt with on a case by case basis.  What if the thief robbed you of said item one instant before you typed 'emote holds his hands desperately onto ~object so that no one can take it'?   There are many variables that make both side of the argument debatable.  But to simply disregard the thief's successful steal because YOU think (s)he didn't respond properly to ane emote, as Forest Junkie suggests, is this not merely stooping to their level?  God forbid we try to be the better person by playing fairly when someone else isn't.

Again, none of my statements above relate to any individual IC instances.  These are general statements.  This thread is for the purpose of discussing what you think is fair or not fair when being (successfully) stolen from.  I don't think there is a simple black and white answer here, I just wanted feedback.  Cheers.

[Bestatte]

My PC was stolen from some time in the past 2 RL weeks, and prior to that as well. Both times, it was a weapon - in my belt-sheath - which was covered by my cloak.

The first time, it was well played out, I didn't see it happen - I, the player, know who did it, but my character didn't even notice it was missing til after the fact. It made sense that the thief was close enough to steal it from me - the situation lent itself perfectly to the theft.

The second time, there was no RP that I could tell. No one bumped up against me, no one sat close to me, no one eyed me appraisingly, no one was in close enough proximity to me for a theft to take place. If there WAS such a thing going on, I would have noticed someone standing -that- close to me, even if my character would never notice the weapon being stolen.

A hidden person less than 6 inches away from my hip will be noticed by someone, even if the code doesn't allow that to happen. If you're out in the open, then *someone* would notice you moving that close. But they can't notice, if you don't emote, or give any other indication that you're NOT just standing against a wall 20 feet away.

Having said that, I don't begrudge the theft. Whoever did it, escaped notice. That's the whole point. I learned in another game - if you managed to steal from me without my noticing, then you earned your prize fair and square, emote or not, RP or not.

I just wish in the second case there was some RP that me, the player, could have enjoyed even if my character remained oblivious.

[3.Kank]

I don't normally accuse the actual thief unless they make it glaringly obvious. (Running or failing a sneak to get away immediately after something goes missing on my person.)

Oh, and a tip to thieves...don't go running straight away to sell your stolen goods. Shit, first thing some of my pcs do when they get stolen from is head straight away to the nearby shops to see who is selling some thing there. 50% of the time, the pc who did this caught the one who stole their stuff redhanded selling it.

And dammit, if your going to emote out a non-hidden steal, give your victim a chance to respond for fuck's sake.

I had a pc (elf) look directly at mine, mine looked directly at him. He emotes walking past me toward the bar and Before I could get my responding emote off (to put my hands on my weapons at my belt) he did his coded steal attempt and critically failed. I was like fuck dude, couldn't have gotten any worse for you than that, I'm not ignoring that shit.

[Anonymous Thief]

I was like fuck dude, couldn't have gotten any worse for you than that, I'm not ignoring that shit.

I don't think anyone is asking for you to ignore a critical failure where the code informs you who the culprit was.

[xX_Cathedral_Xx]

My PC was stolen from some time in the past 2 RL weeks, and prior to that as well. Both times, it was a weapon - in my belt-sheath - which was covered by my cloak.

The first time, it was well played out, I didn't see it happen - I, the player, know who did it, but my character didn't even notice it was missing til after the fact. It made sense that the thief was close enough to steal it from me - the situation lent itself perfectly to the theft.

The second time, there was no RP that I could tell. No one bumped up against me, no one sat close to me, no one eyed me appraisingly, no one was in close enough proximity to me for a theft to take place. If there WAS such a thing going on, I would have noticed someone standing -that- close to me, even if my character would never notice the weapon being stolen.

A hidden person less than 6 inches away from my hip will be noticed by someone, even if the code doesn't allow that to happen. If you're out in the open, then *someone* would notice you moving that close. But they can't notice, if you don't emote, or give any other indication that you're NOT just standing against a wall 20 feet away.

Having said that, I don't begrudge the theft. Whoever did it, escaped notice. That's the whole point. I learned in another game - if you managed to steal from me without my noticing, then you earned your prize fair and square, emote or not, RP or not.

I just wish in the second case there was some RP that me, the player, could have enjoyed even if my character remained oblivious.

For some reason, the reasons you've stated that you did not enjoy the second experience jars me just a bit. I'm not saying that it was appropriate, I hardly play theives and I know very little about how to play them because they do not interest me, but -had- some PC sat 20 feet away, leaning against a wall and appraised you, I am certain that every PC in the room would have noticed that, if not magically having you notice it -- and for that fact alone I would have not done it, had I been the thief. It may be wrong, it may not be wrong but my opinion on the matter is to simply plan within IC bounds to not give yourself away ICly, and OOCly. My opinion is highly debatable as is this entire subject, I am not sure whether its wrong or right and that is why I do not play a role of such intense scrutintinty and such.

[Anonymous Thief]

It is a very debatable subject, I agree.  One without a right or wrong answer, as far as I'm concerned.

Personally, I don't want to know who stole from me (if they've succeeded in the attempt).  I don't see the necessity for someone to emote that they're hand is in or near my cloak pocket if they've rolled a successful steal attempt.  Though I also don't see the necessity for all thieves to steal only while hidden just so that I am as ignorant OOCly of the culprit as I am ICly.

Moderation is the key.

I agree with Bestatte's statement about playing it out whether (you think) it was a realistically RPed theft or not.  Especially since, as I keep saying, you have the power to make yourself 100% steal proof.  The playerbase has the ability to make pickpockets (and the steal skill as a whole) utterly worthless.  That's a huge imbalance.  Thief victims have infinately more advantage over thieves.

[Bestatte]

That's why I try to play my inventory realistically. So - if I have a weapon that I intend to use for self-defense, I'm not gonna tuck it away in a closed pack. I'm gonna have it close by, within easy reach of my hand. And that means my sheath...

If it gets stolen, oh well, sucks to be me. I'll roleplay the disappointment, but as a player I'm not gonna get worked up about it.

I have learned to enjoy the intense RP..those moments when you have to step back and say "My character DOES NOT KNOW THIS even if I do."

So when I see..

>A faint drift of air is interrupted by someone moving through the crowd near you.

I'm not gonna RP that there's a thief prepping his hand in my pocket. I might not even RP noticing any difference at all, depending on what I'm doing at the moment.

I really do enjoy moments like that - so here's notice to would-be thieves who figure out who's "me" at any given moment: I promise not to twink the victim RP, and I encourage you to RP the theft in a way that I, the player, can appreciate it.

[Anonymous Victim]

I think the sad thing is that the way most players respond to being stolen from seems to suggest that all the thieves of the game world should only steal when they are hidden and not emoting (in other words, when you have no clue he was ever there).

I said before that there are plenty of ways to steal without getting caught - but I don't think the only way to perform a theft is to do it while hidden and without emotes.  I think people that are hidden and stealing from people owe it to their victims to emote.  If you're hidden, and you do an emote like, "emote brushes past ~victim," I'm going to appreciate that a lot more than if you do that while unhidden.  As long as you do realistic emotes from hiding, it means your character was able to become one of the faceless masses.  If you do it when your character isn't hidden, it means my character could easily have seen your character bump into him.

That said, I'd also like to point out that there are plenty of other ways to steal from people.  Show a little creativity and think outside the steal and hide skills.  Play with people's perceptions.

[Cuusardo]

I think it would be cool if hidden people emoted more.

[Marauder Moe]

I disagree.  I hate it when I see a hidden emote and have to fight the urge to scan or check my inventory/equipment.

[Forest Junkie]

I think it would be cool if hidden people emoted more.

Nope, sorry. I'll never emote while hidden anymore unless in the desert under certain circumstances. (ie magicks or special use of the terrain)

Every time I emoted while hidden in the city, someone bitched on the gdb. Plus there's the whole:

>stand
>scan
>scan
>eq
>put sword pack
>put 453 coins pack

thing going on.

[Gaare]

I believe thieves get a bum rep simply because people cannot grasp or contemplate how a thief could steal something. In real life, I've seen some pretty wild things done by human thieves - in Arm people have greater agility (faster hands, more subtle movements, quicker reflexes) and there are other races. I always view that was is done by street magicians and good pick pockets IRL as a _base_ level of what a pick pocket could be capable of.

A good RL thief can steal your watch off your wrist while talking to you without you noticing. A good RL thief can A) rumage through your purse and take anything they want or B) take your purse and leave before you notice - bad RL thieves just yank the purse away and run.

A good RL thief can steal someone's earring, someone's hat, someone's necklace, someone's wallet, someone's shoes even (in a restaurant). I've heard and seen all of this happening in RL. In Arm, once more, those who specialize in thievery get awfully darn good at it and their abilities are further enhanced by super-human attributes. Therefore, before complaining, think for a moment.

If you lose a sword while seated at a bar - then that is not too surprising. Most people who wear swords wear armour. That armour then provides a barrier between the sword and the leg. While seated, the sword's weight is distributed by how it rests against the bar or is hanging straight from the belt. The removal of the blade will not necessarily mean you will instantly notice it. Therefore, even a long blade can be carefully cut away by a cunning thief and taken.

Before I hear the 'no, that cannot happen' responses - please just take the time to think about it. And realize, that yes, it could happen. It would take a good thief but it can be done.

What I dislike are the thieves that spam steal - where they take more than one item from a single mark. To me that's just silly. You don't stick around after you do your hit. This is my own view.

I don't agree with stealing pants when others are around watching - but if the person is there all alone and you are obvious about it (emotes here) then by all means, go for it. It's not like the unconscious person can do anything about it. A sleeping person will likely wake up but that's fair.

Any large object taken from a sleeping person should be emoted in my opinion. There's no real sneaky way to prevent people from seeing you take off a cloak, a shirt, a hauberk, pants, a backpack, or anything else you can't normally steal from a sleeping person.

And I want to add something. I hate overstealing as much as I hate overhunting.  A certain PC enters a tavern and some items get lost.. Then two RL hours later, same PC enters that tavern and some items from different PCs stolen once more.. What would you expect when that PC  enters the same tavern next time? I think hiding behind the fact of VNPCs in that tavern is not a solution for that situation.

[jhunter]

I hate it when I see a hidden emote and have to fight the urge to scan or check my inventory/equipment.

That and I just plain don't like to have the knowledge that my pc doesn't if it can be avoided.

[Cenghiz]

Whirans - experienced rangers usually RP out sneaking around my character with no fear after trying once. They're really funny RP sequences and usually don't end up with death. They know my poor merchant is busy with chopping wood or that scarred ranger is really keeping his gaze on that bit of wooden shaft before someone chuckles loudly.

If you're in a grove and 'someone' emotes hastily climbing up a tree, he's just making you OOCly aware that he's there.. So you can emote your level of perception in exchange. If you stand up and leave, all right.. Maybe you had to go. Nobody can know and nobody should assume. But if you stand up and scan, scan, scan... Eh, I'm sure a whiran can cast nice things while you're stuck with the last scan's delay and I don't think anyone would listen to the whiner's mail later. And I'm totally in for killing twinks 'and' asking for the imms to fry them if possible IC.

If a thief is emoting brushing past while invisible, it's a message 'Hello.. I stole your torch now. Now you can find that out in a few minutes and make fun RP out of that or may wait till it gets dark for funnier RP.' If your character was that perceptive, 'LOOK' at him while he was hidden with an odd look. Then you'd remember the face and noone would blame you for being a whiner.

And about the VNPCs... They're there.. You don't want to RP with masses? Then go to the desert. Most of the desert rooms are empty. But if you're in a tavern there 'are' 14 elven VNPCs. If it's Gaj 6 of those elven VNPCs are 'rinthi. You simply can't ignore them because you want to do so. You can't pee, get naked, MUDsex, chip obsidian or chop logs in a virtually crowded place just because there are no PCs normally. (Err maybe you can.. But please, some of those VNPCs are children.)

Don't whine just because you lost a 13-'sid worth f**king torch to a good RPer.

Note: This post is not towards the folks posting in here. It's to folks whom I witnessed doing these things IG a few weeks ago, and I wasn't the thief there, was just another victim.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I think I remember seeing in some older thread that even if someone fails their attempt, not critical as in guards rushing into the room immediately but a "tugging at the clothes" or however that echo goes, depending on how suspicous or smart the person is they might not realize what was going on exactly anyway. Something to the effect of the victem turning on the thief and slapping them on the cheek and yelling about keeping their grabby paws to themselves basicly. I could've worded this better, but that's the general point. So I think if a thief didn't critically fail, but  chances are they're going to get pegged for trying anyway, it might be a good idea to play up on their goof and all-out grope the person. *shrug* Something like that, anyway.
And as to people hiding and emoting, I'm not sure I'd recommend it. Because too many people have the dendency to wig out. Here a while back when they changed a taverns room echo to include a few 'someone' emotes, I was constantly seeing people jump up and scan. Someone laughs boisterously from across the room, three people look around for the source. Then there was one with someone brushing past an area, people were grabbing their weapons and scanning. Even though this is a crowded bar, how often do you suppose people are bumping and brushing into other people? Especially when you count the stumbling drunks. When people realized it was a room echo they settled down, but then a new PC comes in, and it starts all over again.
I've forgotten my point.. A warning to all, take care posting when you're using cough syrup. I'm done now.

[joyofdiscord]

And I want to add something. I hate overstealing as much as I hate overhunting.  A certain PC enters a tavern and some items get lost.. Then two RL hours later, same PC enters that tavern and some items from different PCs stolen once more.. What would you expect when that PC  enters the same tavern next time? I think hiding behind the fact of VNPCs in that tavern is not a solution for that situation.

2 RL hours is over an IC day, and doesn't really seem that bad to me, especially considering the amount of people moving in and out of the tavern, plus the fact that there are a lot of thieves around, and even if you perceive the situation exactly as mentioned above, the simple fact that that PC was there both times when things went missing doesn't prove he did it, not by a long shot.  Even if there are no VNPCs, there -are- thieves with the sneak and hide skills.  Also, depending on the items in question, making enough money to keep oneself fed and watered just might require stealing something each IC day or so.

[xX_Cathedral_Xx]

And I want to add something. I hate overstealing as much as I hate overhunting.  A certain PC enters a tavern and some items get lost.. Then two RL hours later, same PC enters that tavern and some items from different PCs stolen once more.. What would you expect when that PC  enters the same tavern next time? I think hiding behind the fact of VNPCs in that tavern is not a solution for that situation.

2 RL hours is over an IC day, and doesn't really seem that bad to me, especially considering the amount of people moving in and out of the tavern, plus the fact that there are a lot of thieves around, and even if you perceive the situation exactly as mentioned above, the simple fact that that PC was there both times when things went missing doesn't prove he did it, not by a long shot.  Even if there are no VNPCs, there -are- thieves with the sneak and hide skills.  Also, depending on the items in question, making enough money to keep oneself fed and watered just might require stealing something each IC day or so.

In my opinion, I believe your reasoning for not 'over-stealing' as you call it is somewhat flawed. Very clearly the person being stolen from is an easy mark, most of the time it is this case, and if this person is an easy mark and this elf thief needs coin, don't you think he is going to continue stealing from this human for as long as he can without being noticed as the thief? Just my thought on it.

[Nidhogg]

Lots of interesting arguments in this thread. But, an argument can be made for almost anything. The point is, we need enough ooc consideration for one another not to find excuses why we should always foil the theives or why we should steal so continuously from one victim that they get fed up and start finding excuses to become steal proof.

That means occasionally sucking it up, and not trying to "win."

[creeper386]

I almost always have something that's not worth stealing but is stealable on my characters. Sometimes even something valuable like food and water(These never get stolen). The only thing I get stolen is ussually a light weight weapon from the belt. Ussually happens everytime if I have a knife hanging from my belt, even if it's a cheap one.

I would think thieves would steal more smartly. Lately I haven't seen any bad thieves, but when a whole tavern ends up finding at least one thing, if not one or two more things missing ... Somethings wrong. Yes, it may have been multiple thieves but that's probably slim.

Honestly I'd still say everything goes both ways. I see has many victims RPing the act poorly as thieves. Not one side worst then the other in any case.


Creeper

[Kalden]

Burglars can easily steal from belts. They can rarely steal from packs - it's hard to get your peek and steal skill high enough.

So it's likely the reason that's happening is that there are a lot of frustrated burglars out there, and not many good pickpockets.

You're lucky.

[Maybe42or54]

If someone steals from you, It is your fault.
You can be unstealfromable in this mud.

If it was so important that you put your RP aside. Then you shouldn't be carrying it around.

[creeper386]

If someone steals from you, It is your fault.
You can be unstealfromable in this mud.

If it was so important that you put your RP aside. Then you shouldn't be carrying it around.

Good idea. Lets abuse the code just to make the lives difficult of the people that already play difficult characters! YES, perfect idea.

And the one word that comes to mind with this is ... Well I can't say it.


Creeper

[Maybe42or54]

Twink!


If you got something jacked from your person, and it is so goddamn important that you have to put RP aside to yell at the only other visible PC in the room, that is twinkdom. Don't carry anything around and expect it -not- to be stolen.

[halfhuman]

There's nothing I hate more than people who single you out cause you're the only PC that is able to do it.  One time I was in a bar and there were (I counted) 12 PC's all hanging around for an extended period of time.  Since there were 12 PC's, that must mean there are quite a bit of NPC's as well! So, I got busy emoting shoving my way through crowds to establish that this place is fucking PACKED!  
Stole from someone, got one of them failures where "You are able to conceal your actions before they notice you."  The dude came up to me and accused me of being the ONLY person in the tavern moving around.  

What's worse? His buddies dagger got stolen too. Neither of these where me, but I took a beating for it because some twink told everyone I was a thief. Oh well, what ya gonna do?

Also, I've been sitting in a bar when I PC shows up and tries to steal from me. Then keeps trying to steal from me, failing each time.

Then there was a guy who snuck off while I was busy emotedly SHOVING him.

Wo-be me.

When I steal from someone I always emote a way for me to get close enough.  I give them a friendly pat on the back after a stimulating conversation, I act drunk and stagger into them, or I brush past them when things get crowded.  I have only seen about one or two well RP'd responses in my long carrier.  *shrug*

[Anonymous]

So when i get the message that someone brushes by me, someone is stealing things? :shock:

[mansa]

So when i get the message that someone brushes by me, someone is stealing things?

No.

[halfhuman]

Think back to those days of rejection and fear known as High School.  The halls were CROWDED then, right? (At least they are in my school) I bump into AT LEAST two people each day.  They don't think I'm trying to steal their shit or cop a feel, so neither should you when you're in a crowded bar and someone bumps into you.  

Granted, it's okay to be a little suspiscious, just don't go pulling weapons until after you've EMOTED thoroughly looking through your eq and inv.   And you'd only want to look through your inv like that if you were paranoid, probably. Or if it was an elf that bumped into you... bloody neckers!

Cootoes to me, I was just wandering along minding my own business, when I saw an emote about "Someone does something" and I resisted perfectly the urge to scan until the unknown assailents started doing a lot of whispering, even then I made a successfull use of the listen command first! Worship me, I am your RP god!

[joyofdiscord]

Cootoes to me

"Kudos".  Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Maybe42or54]

Have you ever been to a major event such as a concert, A train station in Chicago, a train station in New york, or washington D.c?

That is what zalanthas is like, You never know who's trying to steal from you, but you know they are trying to since there is a 40 foot wide walkway and they are all bunched up in a 5 foot walkway.

[bloodfromstone]

Yeah, I always assumed that brushes and bumps were assumed during steal attempts, but with packed bazaars and streets, why is one different and more worthy of note than the next?

[Rhyden]

I've bumped into people all the time. I've never played a pick-pocket.

[Thiefee]

I was stolen from recently.  I was pleased with my IC response and wanted to post here what I thought was acceptible, why I thought it was good roleplay and how being stolen from should more frequently be roleplayed.

Posting anon so I don't get crap for tooting my own horn.  Heh.

My char was sitting in a tavern talking with the thief (or who I now assume was the thief).  Thief gets up and pulls up his hood and leaves tavern.  Thief leaves tavern and apparently fails his sneak back into the tavern.  Then I get the mesasge "hand in your belongings" and thief fails his sneak back out into the street.

I check my coin - hey I did feel something and I was twenty sid shy.  What did I do?  Nothing.  

Why?  Tavern is busy - though the thief failed his sneak back into the tavern, I might not have noticed a noble entering the busy establishment for awhile, how much less some joe blow in cloak?  Twenty coins off?  Hell, I could have left some of that home, bought one extra drink or something.  Easy enough to loose count.  I do that all the time in RL.
And the feeling of someone's hand in my stuff?  It could have been someone bumping into me.  Who knows.

That being said, I became a little more suspicious of the thief.  We had talked about how he was short on coin and then I come up light after he leaves?  And later, after another conversation my dagger goes missing?

After the second theft (a few IC days later) my character was setting up to test the thief, but there was no running around stomping and getting angry over the loss of few coins, a knife or whatever.

Now had it been something imoprtant (keys, special weapon, crown jewels) maybe my character would have been more upset, but in general thefts are that big.  Usually.

The thief was well roleplayed - one steal attempt, had spent time casing me and left me IC/OOC unsure that it was actually him.

Actually, now that I think of it - it would be cool if IMMs would occasionally play thief VNPCs to get people used to realizing that it isn't necessarily the visible PC taking your stuff.  You know - drop your coin by 20 or 30 sids, or have you loose your favorite spice pipe and send you an echo about someone brushing by you.

[Dracul]

Actually, now that I think of it - it would be cool if IMMs would occasionally play thief VNPCs to get people used to realizing that it isn't necessarily the visible PC taking your stuff.  You know - drop your coin by 20 or 30 sids, or have you loose your favorite spice pipe and send you an echo about someone brushing by you.

Hmmm .

[bloodfromstone]

That's actually a really good idea, I think.

[Anonymous]

Twenty coins off?  Hell, I could have left some of that home, bought one extra drink or something.  Easy enough to loose count.  I do that all the time in RL.

I never know how much money, exactly, I'm carrying. If I was to guess at any time how much was in my wallet, I'd be unlikely to be much more accurate than within £10.

[moab]

Crap, I was actually commenting on Lareth's post.
I say the PCs are too uptight (in general) when it comes to theft.
This is a function of experiences with bad RP from some thieves and an unwillingness to trust in the game themselves.

You gotta be the change you want to see.

[Angela Christine]

I think the magnitude and frequency of the the thefts affect how people react.  If a handfull of coins is pickpocketed or a few small valuables are stolen from my apartment, OOCly I go "That's cool!" and then decide how upset my PC would be, or if she even noticed the theft.  

I don't get OOCly upset until I encounter one of those rashes of theft where you and everyone you know is getting knives stollen off their belts along with every single item not secured in a closed pack, or logging in to find that my appartement  has been burgled every single day for a week untill even the large furnature has been hauled away.  Even then I can't be sure that there are theif PCs behaving baddly.  It could be that there are half a dozen pickpockets, and each of them is stealing a reasonable amount rather than a single twink, a totally IC crime wave.  Or it could be that several burglars are breaking into my apartment, but then they forget to close the door behind themselves and so random non-thief PCs go into the open apartments and steal the furniture and anything else not nailed down.  Regardless of who is doing it or why, blatent over-theiving gets people grumpy.  It encourages them to keep nothing of value in their apartments, and keep every last coin locked away in their backpack, perhaps even going to the extreme of using macros to quickly open and close thier packs because there seem to be twink thieves under every table who snatch things out of your very hands the moment you open your pack.  Naturally this paranoid hyper-vigilence on the part of potential victims makes life unrealistically hard on people trying to play theives, which in turn encourages them to set up macros and scripts for thieving quickly to beat the other players scripts, or to clean every last item of value out of an apartment because it could be a long time until they are able to find an apartment with anything valuable in it.


For me it seems to take about 6 months to relax again after a rash of heavy theft.  I've never gone to the extreme of putting my weapons in my pack, but after having them stolen off my belt a couple times I do switch to cheaper weapons, even gith weapons, so that the constant need to replace them isn't a huge burden.  After excessive burgleries, times when it becomes absolutely useless to store anything in your apartment because even rocks are getting stollen, I might not rent an apartment in that city again for 6 months, and just live with my virtual relatives.  A ring of over-eager pickpockets (or perhaps one really twinky pickpocket) might be enough for me to stop making new PCs in a town for a few months, or to make PCs that spend very little time in town in public places.  I don't play DOOM because for me shooters aren't fun.  I don't play in locations of heavy theft, because that isn't fun for very long either.  Light theft is fun and encourage roleplay, it gives the victims something to react to.  Heavy theft is OOCly discouraging, so it discourages play.


Angela Christine

[nameless]

I like being a thief, but I like role playing a thief even more.  It seems to me most thieves are just looking for phat lewt, which is depressing considering it can be a lot of fun if role played it right.  Like the situation where everyone's daggers were stolen.  If I was that thief I'd put them all in a pack/pouch of some sort, drop in the middle of the tavern and watch people dive for their belonging's or I'd pick someone's pocket and then buy the whole tavern a drink with his/her money.
You know fun stuff, not just the boring, steal coins man, sneak, n, e, e, e. Not all thieves need to work the entire time and steal from every apartment/person in the whole city.

[Rhyden]

A ring of over-eager pickpockets (or perhaps one really twinky pickpocket) might be enough for me to stop making new PCs in a town for a few months, or to make PCs that spend very little time in town in public places.  I don't play DOOM because for me shooters aren't fun.  I don't play in locations of heavy theft, because that isn't fun for very long either.  Light theft is fun and encourage roleplay, it gives the victims something to react to.  Heavy theft is OOCly discouraging, so it discourages play.

I've an opposite view on the matter, AC and I have to disagree to your last statement, only if it is 'untwinkish'.

If there was a ring of well-played, hardcore, heavy-action pick-pockets out there slipping daggers and coins out of everybody's trouser pockets, I think it would be awesome! It would totally make a huge plot that Templars would obviously have to be involved in if in one of the major city-states and it would really change the atmosphere of that certain place until something was done. Who knows? It could end up in a small group of commoners putting their blades together to get rid of this league of pesky pick-pockets. Maybe it would be in the hands of a Templar who'd assign curfews and make road-blocks up and down streets. Maybe the pick-pocket gang could become really successful and overthrow a Highlord. Who knows?

I say, anything that's really making large conflict and developing major plots in an untwinkish way is absolutely fine by me.

[Maybe42or54]

But see Rhyden.
My third pc.
My pc was accepted.
I log in.
I walk west into the Gaj.
I check out the IC boards, and walk to salarr.
I get there and guess what? 1200 coins are -gone-.
Stolen from me within 3 minutes of play.
Alright, so I email the mud and they give me 1500, so I think "Awesome".
I buy all my life gained armors and weapons and a bracelet that the man recieved from his mother before he was sold into slavery.
So I am siked because I got the best start of a pc.
About 3 months later with that Pc, he is badass.
I go back to that city and I left my backpack open with about ten things in there, including a bag with the bracelet, my money, a couple gems. My backpack had everything I needed.
Now, about an hour after entering this city, I look in my backpack and OMFG they stole everything. Everything. Even my chunk of sandstone.
I get fed up and went back to the other city for the remainder of his life.

So in affect.

When thieves find someones backpack open. They don't steal in moderation. They steal everything, whenever they can.

[Agent_137]

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

This goes for coded issue, non coded issues, and real life issues.


I see lots of outcries on these boards when people have bad thiefly experiences (stealing -everything- in no time flat.)

I see lots of thiefly outcries when marks abuse allowances the thieves give them (hidden emotes, etc.)

It reminds me of the conundrum concerning raiders. The raiders bitch when marks spam flee, and the marks bitch when the raiders attack with no emotes.

The world would be a better place if people took initiative to play well, regardless of the other party. Give the other party, -every- other party the benefit of the doubt. Let -every- person you come in contact with have one chance to play along with you. If that player screws you, mark down the sdesc and don't let it happen again, and send a copy of the happening to the mud account. But don't generalize that one event by that one player to a whole group of players.

Just because one pickpocket stole everything you had with nary an emote doesn't mean they all will. Just because one guy spammed scan after your hidden emote doesn't mean everyone will.

Take the moral/roleplay high road. Sure it will mean your char will take some hits for OOC reasons, but NOT doing so would mean you are no better than those twinks that piss you off by spam fleeing/scanning/stealing.

[Maybe42or54]

And then I see it as this, whoever has the advantage should take the chance to RP.


You usually have the first chance to RP that sets the mood for the rest of the scene.

[Rhyden]

But see Rhyden.
My third pc.
My pc was accepted.
I log in.
I walk west into the Gaj.
I check out the IC boards, and walk to salarr.
I get there and guess what? 1200 coins are -gone-.
Stolen from me within 3 minutes of play.
Alright, so I email the mud and they give me 1500, so I think "Awesome".
I buy all my life gained armors and weapons and a bracelet that the man recieved from his mother before he was sold into slavery.
So I am siked because I got the best start of a pc.
About 3 months later with that Pc, he is badass.
I go back to that city and I left my backpack open with about ten things in there, including a bag with the bracelet, my money, a couple gems. My backpack had everything I needed.
Now, about an hour after entering this city, I look in my backpack and OMFG they stole everything. Everything. Even my chunk of sandstone.
I get fed up and went back to the other city for the remainder of his life.

So in affect.

When thieves find someones backpack open. They don't steal in moderation. They steal everything, whenever they can.

Ya, I know what you mean, spam-stealing is uncool anytime.

steal coins man
steal coins man
steal coins man
etc...

But what I'm saying is I'm not opposed to any large sort of thief group who are actually playing it out well, not spamming, not abusing the code, but making slick and sly plots that makes conflict for all. I have no problem with it as long as they aren't a bunch of free-for-all spam-stealers.

[Maybe42or54]

And those are the ones we complain and bitch about.
I've only seen one or two thieves that actually got me engrossed in coversation and then they got up and left after they convinced me to show them my ultracool steel sword of doom.

I put it back in my backpack and then they say they have tog et up and elave before I think to close my backpack. Then.. i leave and log off, and find out the next day my ultra cool sword was stolen and sold to salarr for 3 coins.

[Fankkekker]

Yeah well what if you just grab the nearest pc/npc that you see when you find out you have something missing and start beating the crap out them/it, reguardless of if they did it or not.