Roleplaying Being Stolen From

[Anonymous Thief]

If someone successfully steals from you, do you feel justified if you RP knowing who the culprit was based on who is (visible to you) in the room?  For example, if you are in a tavern with only one (visible) PC and you lose an item just then, chances are highly probable it was the PC.  But do you feel it's okay to then accuse the PC in question, ignoring the virtual crowds and the fact that the thief succeeded in his/her skill?

If you ask me, I think the only occasion where it may be warranted is when the thief in question critically or non-critically fails the skill (or I guess if they admit their guilt through emote or words) but I wanted to see what the rest of you thought.  

Unfortunately this is a situation which requires separating OOC knowledge from IC knowledge and most players prove, time and time again, that they are incapable of this.  In fact, to date, I can only recall one single player who has ever been responsible enough to roleplay not knowing who was stealing from them despite the fact that they (more than likely) knew who it was OOCly.

So since (in my experience) most players blatantly bypass a thief's successful steal attempt, I wanted to hear it from all of you whether you think it's OK or not and if so why.

[Marauder Moe]

If the code tells me I see a hooded figure running/stealthing out of the room I don't see why my character wouldn't assume that was the one.  Also my character might go ahead and accuse the nearest elf or 'rinther of the theft.  Yes, it may be a little unfair that I'd go for the PCs first instead of the (v)NPCs, but PCs make for better roleplay.

[Cuusardo]

If it's a shady looking PC, perhaps a PC that you KNOW to be a thief because you or someone you know caught or watched this PC get caught, or if that PC starts to look nervous or leaves when you realize you've been stolen from, it's justifiable to accuse that PC.  Suspicious behavior and all.

If that PC isn't doing anything suspicious, you've no reason to accuse it.  Keep in mind that there may be hidden PCs in that room that you might not be able to see, as well as all the VNPCs.

[Forest Junkie]

But do you feel it's okay to then accuse the PC in question, ignoring the virtual crowds and the fact that the thief succeeded in his/her skill?

This is an excellent question. I feel that it really depends upon the situation though.

1) If your pc is in an extremely crowded area, brushes against someone, and immediately moves back into the flow of the patrons, how could the victim possibly pick your pc out of a crowd of possible dozens, or hundreds. Again, this situation is open to debate, because you as the thief do not know if the victim has exceptional powers of observation, such as listen/scan/etc. I personally believe it poor play though for a pc to automagickally blame yours for the simple fact that there is no other visible pc around.

2) If your pc is in an area nearly devoid of crowds, and steals from someone, I would find it perfectly reasonable for the victim to blame yours, given that they realized this particular item was "just recently" lifted off of them.

Unfortunately this is a situation which requires separating OOC knowledge from IC knowledge and most players prove, time and time again, that they are incapable of this.

I agree, though again, one cannot make such assumptions based on observations made through IC events. You really have to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt, unless they are just making it blatantly obvious they are cheating.

I would love to start seeing more thieves botch their attempts on purpose even if they are perfect "code-wise", as well as victims roleplaying their characters not having the faintest idea whom nicked their shit. I did it once, and the situation played out nicely. I do believe giving your pc "flaws" will enhance your overall experience. This is meant for both sides to consider.

[Anonymous Thief]

I think the important thing for thief victims to realize is that, unless you're a newbie, you probably know full well how to make yourself 100% steal-proof.  It's not that hard.  This knowledge alone puts us all way ahead of the pickpockets of Zalanthas.  If you lost something, it's probably your own fault so why not give the thief a break by pretending you don't know (since, ICly, you probably wouldn't).  Blatantly obvious instances like a 'Rinth elf somehow sneaking into the Trader's Inn and making a show of himself notwithstanding, a successful steal attempt is a successful steal attempt and it would be fair for us to consider the tremendous advantage we have over PC thieves.  If (more) NPC pickpockets wandered the city streets all the time, it would be a lot harder to point out that one elf, or that one Rinther, whenever an item suddenly vanishes from your inventory, since there may be more than one suspect!  If it's just some pickpocketing NPC that duped you, chances are you'll just suck it up and roll with the bunches, whereas if it's a PC you'll probably proceed to tell your employers, your employer's employers, the templarate, and every assassin between here and the other side of the world, all so they can exact vengeance on one lone, very unimportant thief.  So again, I implore you all, fellow players, to consider the fact that (most of) you know full well how to make yourselves 100% impervious to thieves.  Ask yourself the next time you're stolen from whose fault it is you just got robbed and if maybe, just maybe, you should be fair enough to honor the thief's successful swipe.

[Armaddict]

One thing to note:

If you're from the 'rinth, you very likely dress like one.  Most of the 'virtual crowd' may be poor, but they don't look as scummy, either.

If a 'rinther is seen somewhere in a group of commoners, and one of those commoners ends up saying, "Hey, someone stole my shit," who is going to be the one to blame?  The 'rinther.

This is why thieves have to be a little smarter.  Find those who are distracted, and -won't- notice.  Don't steal after already being spotted.  And don't expect that just because you're in a crowded tavern, -everyone- will give you the benefit of the doubt...because the 'rinther is always the one who will get the blame.

That can give you some ideas on how to cover yourself up, too.

[Cuusardo]

I would think the same thing would go for elves as well as rinthers.  If someone feels a hand in their pockets and there is one elf in the room, chances are their eyes are going to go straight to the elf.

[Larrath]

Most eyes will (as they should) go to the elf, but people should also remember that there are nearly as many elves around as there are humans.

I doubt any tavern big tavern is going to have less than six elves inside it at any given time.  Elves like to sit and talk and drink ale, too.

[The angry victim]

The main reason why people accuse the PC there is that mainly PC's are stealing the things from their inventory, without regarding the emotes of the victim. Say, one takes something from pack and holds it out to other PC. -the item is in their hands IC'ly because they have emoted that way- So they type *give item other* getting the message *you dont have that item*..
Is that a good way of RP'ing?

Or.. They remove the item and hand it out to the other. It would be OK, before removing.. But if I think I'm holding an item in my hands and notice that its not there.. I would accuse you.. Sorry..

[Forest Junkie]

Anyone who snatches something right out of your hands after you have purposefully emoted handing it to someone definitely scores a 9.5 on the "Cheesy shit-o-meter".

If something like that did happen to me, I would consider that one other pc in the room fair game.

Again, these situations are all relative, and dependent upon many factors.

[spawnloser]

FJ, the problem is that it is very likely that the person that stole from you is hidden.  Blaming a PC when there are a multitude of other NPCs and VNPCs around is singling a player out...for no reason other than that they are a PC.  This is using OOC knowledge IG.

Remind me to play a really sneaky thief some day, because it seems that if I'm hidden, noone will ever blame me of theft, but the random other PC that's around.

Oh, and on another note, there are NPCs that'll try to pick your pocket too.  Think on that.

[amoeba]

Most eyes will (as they should) go to the elf, but people should also remember that there are nearly as many elves around as there are humans.

I doubt any tavern big tavern is going to have less than six elves inside it at any given time.  Elves like to sit and talk and drink ale, too.

I agree, with one exception. I don't believe the thief should be given a 100% free ride based on the arguement that there were "no less than six elves" in the tavern.  maybe something about this particular elf caught your eye. Does that mean you should 100% always be able to pick him out of the crowd? Of course not. RP it how you see fit given the situation.  I am still of the mindset that a "smart" thief will make sure you the player, never notices.

[Forest Junkie]

FJ, the problem is that it is very likely that the person that stole from you is hidden.  Blaming a PC when there are a
multitude of other NPCs and VNPCs around is singling a player out...for no reason other than that they are a PC.  This is using OOC knowledge IG

Oh I agree spawnloser. But, if a pc steals from me after having observed me emote handing the item to someone, then you're damned right I'm going to point at the first elf or pc I see who even looks shady.

Here are my first arguments:

1) If your pc is in an extremely crowded area, brushes against someone, and immediately moves back into the flow of the patrons, how could the victim possibly pick your pc out of a crowd of possible dozens, or hundreds. Again, this situation is open to debate, because you as the thief do not know if the victim has exceptional powers of observation, such as listen/scan/etc. I personally believe it poor play though for a pc to automagickally blame yours for the simple fact that there is no other visible pc around.

2) If your pc is in an area nearly devoid of crowds, and steals from someone, I would find it perfectly reasonable for the victim to blame yours, given that they realized this particular item was "just recently" lifted off of them.

[Anonymous Victim]

But do you feel it's okay to then accuse the PC in question, ignoring the virtual crowds and the fact that the thief succeeded in his/her skill?

Absolutely, without a doubt, and I don't think it makes me a poor player.

The simple fact is, I don't log on and play Arm to interact with the virtual crowds.  My character does that just fine while I'm offline, out having a beer with my friends.

Unless you're a staff member, the virtual world is a poor measure for anything.  Only the staff can say for certain what's going on - sometimes they do that in the room descriptions, but not always.  So your virtual tavern packed with bodies rubbing against each other in some orgiastic mosh pit might well be my virtual dive tavern full of a whole three drunks, including the two of us.

There are ways that thief PCs can steal from others without getting caught, and if you can steal from my character without me knowing who it was, then you've pulled off a good, successful theft.  Plenty of people have done this in the past.

If the virtual world defense was applied universally, this game wouldn't be that much fun because we players infer things based off of the actions of other players all the time.  You saw a dead body?  Probably just a virtual murderer on the loose.

[Larrath]

I don't know about you, Victim, but I'd rather have someone emote brushing up to me and snaking their hand inside my cloak to grab something from my belt instead of just being the target to yet another "steal coins man;sneak;north" thing.

The same goes with being shadowed.

[mansa]

What is the echo when:

You try and steal from someone, but their guards stop you.  For you nobles, what does it say to YOU?

To the thief, it echos:

"You try but his/her guards prevent you from getting close."

[pot_of_stew]

I don't know about you, Victim, but I'd rather have someone emote brushing up to me and snaking their hand inside my cloak to grab something from my belt instead of just being the target to yet another "steal coins man;sneak;north" thing.

The same goes with being shadowed.

Yeah, I'd like that too. 'cept someone told me once that there are people that will instantly react to an emote that says someone or stuff.

[Anonymous Thief]

I feel obliged to point out that this post has nothing to do with any IC events nor any specific player.  Rather, I'm making a statement towards an age old trend which is to take advantage of successful steal attempts.  Years ago a newbie roleplayed KNOWNIG I robbed him (despite that he was unconscious at the time) based on the fact that I was the only PC in the room.  The next thing I knew there were 2 noble houses and a merchant house (not to mention the templarate) hunting me down, all for one very petty incident.

And while Cuusardo makes a good point here:

I would think the same thing would go for elves as well as rinthers. If someone feels a hand in their pockets and there is one elf in the room, chances are their eyes are going to go straight to the elf.

I would still be careful not to use this argument in every scenario, as many (or dare I say most) locations are equipped with NPC elves as well.

I'm not advocating against accusing the culprit of an obvious scenario.  A Rinth elf (or similar persona) sneaks into the Trader's Inn or waltzes himself merrily on into the Sanctuary, he can expect all fingers to point his way the instant someone's item has gone missing.  Of course.  But not every instance of theft rotates around this kind of setting.  The purpose of my post was to make a general statement against the way most players tend to respond to theft.  If you've been stolen from in game recently, don't necessarily assume it was me (though you never know, but still).

[Anonymous Thief]

As an addendum:

I think the sad thing is that the way most players respond to being stolen from seems to suggest that all the thieves of the game world should only steal when they are hidden and not emoting (in other words, when you have no clue he was ever there).  The next time I make a thief character, what insentive do I have to steal while remaining in sight?  Realistically, I think the easiest way you can pickpocket someone is when you ARE in sight but unfortunately the behavior of many seems to suggest they would rather you hide;steal item;sneak;n;n;n.

In regards to respecting the victim's emotes, I think this can only be dealt with on a case by case basis.  What if the thief robbed you of said item one instant before you typed 'emote holds his hands desperately onto ~object so that no one can take it'?   There are many variables that make both side of the argument debatable.  But to simply disregard the thief's successful steal because YOU think (s)he didn't respond properly to ane emote, as Forest Junkie suggests, is this not merely stooping to their level?  God forbid we try to be the better person by playing fairly when someone else isn't.

Again, none of my statements above relate to any individual IC instances.  These are general statements.  This thread is for the purpose of discussing what you think is fair or not fair when being (successfully) stolen from.  I don't think there is a simple black and white answer here, I just wanted feedback.  Cheers.

[Bestatte]

My PC was stolen from some time in the past 2 RL weeks, and prior to that as well. Both times, it was a weapon - in my belt-sheath - which was covered by my cloak.

The first time, it was well played out, I didn't see it happen - I, the player, know who did it, but my character didn't even notice it was missing til after the fact. It made sense that the thief was close enough to steal it from me - the situation lent itself perfectly to the theft.

The second time, there was no RP that I could tell. No one bumped up against me, no one sat close to me, no one eyed me appraisingly, no one was in close enough proximity to me for a theft to take place. If there WAS such a thing going on, I would have noticed someone standing -that- close to me, even if my character would never notice the weapon being stolen.

A hidden person less than 6 inches away from my hip will be noticed by someone, even if the code doesn't allow that to happen. If you're out in the open, then *someone* would notice you moving that close. But they can't notice, if you don't emote, or give any other indication that you're NOT just standing against a wall 20 feet away.

Having said that, I don't begrudge the theft. Whoever did it, escaped notice. That's the whole point. I learned in another game - if you managed to steal from me without my noticing, then you earned your prize fair and square, emote or not, RP or not.

I just wish in the second case there was some RP that me, the player, could have enjoyed even if my character remained oblivious.

[3.Kank]

I don't normally accuse the actual thief unless they make it glaringly obvious. (Running or failing a sneak to get away immediately after something goes missing on my person.)

Oh, and a tip to thieves...don't go running straight away to sell your stolen goods. Shit, first thing some of my pcs do when they get stolen from is head straight away to the nearby shops to see who is selling some thing there. 50% of the time, the pc who did this caught the one who stole their stuff redhanded selling it.

And dammit, if your going to emote out a non-hidden steal, give your victim a chance to respond for fuck's sake.

I had a pc (elf) look directly at mine, mine looked directly at him. He emotes walking past me toward the bar and Before I could get my responding emote off (to put my hands on my weapons at my belt) he did his coded steal attempt and critically failed. I was like fuck dude, couldn't have gotten any worse for you than that, I'm not ignoring that shit.

[Anonymous Thief]

I was like fuck dude, couldn't have gotten any worse for you than that, I'm not ignoring that shit.

I don't think anyone is asking for you to ignore a critical failure where the code informs you who the culprit was.

[xX_Cathedral_Xx]

My PC was stolen from some time in the past 2 RL weeks, and prior to that as well. Both times, it was a weapon - in my belt-sheath - which was covered by my cloak.

The first time, it was well played out, I didn't see it happen - I, the player, know who did it, but my character didn't even notice it was missing til after the fact. It made sense that the thief was close enough to steal it from me - the situation lent itself perfectly to the theft.

The second time, there was no RP that I could tell. No one bumped up against me, no one sat close to me, no one eyed me appraisingly, no one was in close enough proximity to me for a theft to take place. If there WAS such a thing going on, I would have noticed someone standing -that- close to me, even if my character would never notice the weapon being stolen.

A hidden person less than 6 inches away from my hip will be noticed by someone, even if the code doesn't allow that to happen. If you're out in the open, then *someone* would notice you moving that close. But they can't notice, if you don't emote, or give any other indication that you're NOT just standing against a wall 20 feet away.

Having said that, I don't begrudge the theft. Whoever did it, escaped notice. That's the whole point. I learned in another game - if you managed to steal from me without my noticing, then you earned your prize fair and square, emote or not, RP or not.

I just wish in the second case there was some RP that me, the player, could have enjoyed even if my character remained oblivious.

For some reason, the reasons you've stated that you did not enjoy the second experience jars me just a bit. I'm not saying that it was appropriate, I hardly play theives and I know very little about how to play them because they do not interest me, but -had- some PC sat 20 feet away, leaning against a wall and appraised you, I am certain that every PC in the room would have noticed that, if not magically having you notice it -- and for that fact alone I would have not done it, had I been the thief. It may be wrong, it may not be wrong but my opinion on the matter is to simply plan within IC bounds to not give yourself away ICly, and OOCly. My opinion is highly debatable as is this entire subject, I am not sure whether its wrong or right and that is why I do not play a role of such intense scrutintinty and such.

[Anonymous Thief]

It is a very debatable subject, I agree.  One without a right or wrong answer, as far as I'm concerned.

Personally, I don't want to know who stole from me (if they've succeeded in the attempt).  I don't see the necessity for someone to emote that they're hand is in or near my cloak pocket if they've rolled a successful steal attempt.  Though I also don't see the necessity for all thieves to steal only while hidden just so that I am as ignorant OOCly of the culprit as I am ICly.

Moderation is the key.

I agree with Bestatte's statement about playing it out whether (you think) it was a realistically RPed theft or not.  Especially since, as I keep saying, you have the power to make yourself 100% steal proof.  The playerbase has the ability to make pickpockets (and the steal skill as a whole) utterly worthless.  That's a huge imbalance.  Thief victims have infinately more advantage over thieves.

[Bestatte]

That's why I try to play my inventory realistically. So - if I have a weapon that I intend to use for self-defense, I'm not gonna tuck it away in a closed pack. I'm gonna have it close by, within easy reach of my hand. And that means my sheath...

If it gets stolen, oh well, sucks to be me. I'll roleplay the disappointment, but as a player I'm not gonna get worked up about it.

I have learned to enjoy the intense RP..those moments when you have to step back and say "My character DOES NOT KNOW THIS even if I do."

So when I see..

>A faint drift of air is interrupted by someone moving through the crowd near you.

I'm not gonna RP that there's a thief prepping his hand in my pocket. I might not even RP noticing any difference at all, depending on what I'm doing at the moment.

I really do enjoy moments like that - so here's notice to would-be thieves who figure out who's "me" at any given moment: I promise not to twink the victim RP, and I encourage you to RP the theft in a way that I, the player, can appreciate it.