Language accent's

[WhiteRanger]

Why is that when you learn allundean from a southern elf, if you are northern you still speak allundean with a northern accent? This dosent make alot of sense to me, I think it would make more sense if you spoke allundean with a southern accent, when you heard the language, it was spoken with a southern accent, so you should copy those sounds, not magically put your own accent on this language that is new to you. Especially an accent that just happens to sound like all of those northerner's accents.

Here is the idea...when you learn a new language, based on what accent you learned it in, that accent should carry over to that specific language for you. This would keep alot of people from pointing at you and yelling 'Northy' just because of the way you speak a certain language.

This also opens up a new door for perhaps a change accent skill for those rogues and thiefy types out there. I could see it branching from listen easily.

I know this isnt the most important thing in the world, but just something that would add to the realism of the game. If I learn german from a northern german, I wont sound like a southern german, just because I am from south america and my english is southern. I think that makes sense.

[Xamminy]

Knowing more than most, all I will say is that this would require some work with the language code.  I'm not sure this would be worth the work put into it.

Other reasoning, you speak with a northern accent...sure you learned allundean from a rinthi, but you're still learning what words are what, and your accent is still showing through.

Now if we could have layers, like speaking in northern rinthi accent, now that'd be cool...but still, lots of work.

[Linedel]

I learned Mandarin Chinese at UCLA, which (as with most west coast colleges) teaches in an accent that is a mix between "no accent" (xi men - west gate) and "Beijing" (xi me(n)'r).

I speak (ok, spoke, I forgot most of it) Mandarin with a mix of accents between "none", "Beijing" and "American," with "American" being heaviest by far.

Similarly, I was taught Arabic by a Lebanese woman teaching Egyptian Arabic (the most common dialect).  But regardless of whether I say dajjazh (everyone else) vs. daggag (Egypt) for "chicken", I'm sure when I say either, my sounds are similarly off in a fully American way.

Yes, you'll do a _few_ things in the accent that you're learning from, but the way you use your voicebox is mostly determined while you're young.  Very few people will significantly change how they speak.  The system is fine, and regardless of complexity, it probably wouldn't be worth the effort to change.


(Note: The above analysis may be less applicable in Zalanthas.  Zalanthian languages are mostly related to each other (see documentation), and thus it is likely that most of them share most of their sounds.  The languages noted above share almost nothing (besides mama and baba - almost all languages share those) with English, and each have a dozen sounds that English does not use.  Meaning my American accent is probably less obvious in German than in Chinese, with English sharing most (all?) of its sounds with German.)

[sjanimal]

I think the original poster is hitting on a larger point -- the portion of the code that pertains to languages is somewhat buggy and sometimes is restrictive of roleplay.

[Xamminy]

I don't believe the system is buggy, sjanimal.  It could use work, but it does work fine.  Now, if you can give an example of how it is buggy, please do, because you are not backing up your claim.

[Dracul]

I don't believe the system is buggy, sjanimal.  It could use work, but it does work fine.  Now, if you can give an example of how it is buggy, please do, because you are not backing up your claim.

No no...I wouldn't say it's buggy.  But let me say something... "hef rae noe"  you can tell how many letters per words...oh..and one thing I noted...my char didnt know allundean..but when someone types numbers in a language...those arent scrambled.

You can sometimes tell what someone is getting at just from the letter distribution.

[mansa]

I consider it a bug.  It gives off code advantage to those who shouldn't have it.  (Code Advantage as per Character Origin, Clan Identity, and Character Citizenship)

Now, this -bug- isn't much of a 'BIG' one on the lists... but it still affects -my- play and develope of my characters, because I know that this person speaks with a 'rinth accent'd kentu.

[Xamminy]

So...mansa would prefer no accents?

As far as numbers are concerned, people shouldn't be using them.  You don't speak in numbers, you speak a word that corresponds to a number.  Really, 2 isn't a word, but two is.  Don't use numerics in speech on the mud.

I also understand the length of word thing, as I've figured out what someone was saying from by word length...but really, the only other way I could see it working (and more realistically actually) to do it would by by word, making the length of the word determine how difficult the understanding of the word would be...and if the person didn't check their language check, scramble the word, adding or subtractig up to, say, two letters.

I wouldn't not call language code buggy, just in need of improvement, as I said.

[Linedel]

Numbers are probably ok.

Zalanthian languages are all related, and thus probably have similar numbers.  Numbers are one of the first things you learn in any language.

In addition for Tuluk, it has a tribal market - if you ever trade there, you're going to know numbers in every common tribal language whether you know the language or not.

Granted, this is somewhat a copout, but its justifyable based on reality; so I'd say whatever the staff says goes on this one, 'cause there are arguments for both sides.

[moab]

I think numbers are alright - as is guessing at words by the length of the letters....as mansa pointed out can be done.

This may simulate, perhaps, all the body language and whatnot that goes on when two people of different languages interact.

[Bestatte]

I don't think I'd ever fault someone for typing the numeric symbol rather than spelling out the word itself...

But I find it personally jarring. It just looks awkward to me, and "feels" wrong so I won't ever do it. I tried looking in novels for characters talking about costs of things, or sizes, or other numeric expressions. I found many, and none of them used the numeric symbols in their text-created speech.

"It'll need to be at least three and a half leagues long," said the wizard to his apprentice, "so get cracking and spell yourself up around six thousand coins for the cost of the wood."

just looks more smooth and flows better than

"It'll need to be at least 3.5 leagues long," said the wizard to his apprentice, "so get cracking and spell yourself up around 6000 coins for the cost of the wood."

As for understanding speech, I think I disagree somewhat. I have problems understanding thick foreign accents in real life, and over the phone, "fifty" sounds exactly like "sixty" to me, even if it's in flawless English. I can totally see people getting numbers confused unless they're using their fingers to indicate through emotes which number they're referring to.

[Cuusardo]

Numbers bypass the language code, just like emoting speech does.

[sjanimal]

Xamminy,

I don't think that our claim is that there should be -NO- accents.

But I think that some characters (linguists for example) should be able to modify their accents.

Also, for the most part you will be stuck with one of two accents (Northern or Southern.)

This kind of simplifies cultural interaction to the point of:

"OMG U ARE FROM THE NORTH I WILL KILL U"

Which is somewhat sketchy considering the entire known world is thought to be only as large as Montana.  Do you honestly think you could tell the difference between a North Montana and a South Montana accent?  

Also, the accents tend to reflect where the characters starts, not character background.  I think that I could be happy with the accents, provided the players had a bit more say over it.

So, over all, language system = strong but has the potential to be much stronger.

[Anonymous]

Actually.. I don't know about Montana, seeing as I've never really known anyone from there, but if you compaired to the accents to another state that had a bit more diversity in it, or a little thicker accent, you could probably tell just which end they were from if you were from that state, too.

Though I agree that eventually I think someone who spends -massive- amounts of time speaking another language could be able to affect a different accent, if it's an accent of someone they've heard speak quiteoften as well. So if a southern human spent absolutely -all- their time in Tuluk listening to those barbaric northerners talk, eventually they could mimic the accents. And I agree that linguists should get a bump to this, seeing as they have a natural aptitude for accents anyway.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Eh, that was me, and I meant an aptitude for languages, not accents. *shrug* Oops.

[Spoon]

My French teacher at school had a French accent.

However, when I try and speak French, I sound like an English twat, trying to speak French.

Also, think of Apu from the Simpsons. He probably learnt English in America. I know he's not real, but TV wouldn't lie to me.

[sjanimal]

InsertCleverNameHere,

You certainly make a valid point.  However the current game code is too cut and dry to serve to stimulate complexities or interesting role playing.  It lacks nuance.

One Time I played a character who grew up on the desert sands.  What accent should he have had?  Probably a red-neck, desert man kind of accent.  What accent did he have?  Tuluk, because I started in Tuluk.  

As people point out -- there are countless situations where the inflexibility of the language system detracts from gaming possibilities rather than contributes to gaming possibilities.  At the very least, I think that players should have the option to turn accent off.  I could live with that.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I don't think giving the option just to turn an accent off. At least not without the same restrictions as learning a new accent and all that, because you'd get people doing it right out the gate so they could play 'nakki spy in Tuluk, and vice versa, without bothering to 'learn' how to speak like a northerner, act like a northerner, etc.
Just being able to 'turn off' an accent has way too much potential for abuse.

[Adhira]

Not letting people change their accents is not a bug, it is deliberate (at this point in time). People receive the accent of the city they point to, to begin the game with.  If their background states something differently they can email the mud to have the appropriate accent given to their PC. If they wish to RP out learning to change their accent - email the mud.

Changing accents is not that easy, how many movies have you seen where the American is trying to affect a British accent (for example) and the sounds just make you cringe?

[joyofdiscord]

This kind of simplifies cultural interaction to the point of:

"OMG U ARE FROM THE NORTH I WILL KILL U"

You have really seen foreigner interaction in the game conducted on this sort of crude terms?  I must say I've been remarkably lucky, then, in what I've witnessed.  Players have usually handled things quite realistically.  If the above is happening, it's the players doing it, not the accent echo.

Which is somewhat sketchy considering the entire known world is thought to be only as large as Montana.  Do you honestly think you could tell the difference between a North Montana and a South Montana accent?

You can't tell me you don't know this is a ridiculous comparison.  Just because the Known World is the roughly the same land area as one of the most sparsely populated, least linguistically diverse regions of one of the least linguistically diverse nations in the world doesn't mean the language distribution is likely to be the same.  There are regions in our world much smaller than Montana which are home to well over ten times the number of languages as in Zalanthas, each of which have vast dialectical variations from one town to another.  

Zalanthas features peoples in settlements pretty well isolated by harsh terrain and cultural hostility, which is an ideal breeding ground for linguistic separation.  Just because PC's manage to travel frequently from one city to another doesn't mean it's very common for an average citizen.  

The accent code, in it's current simple but elegant state, seems to me to be about perfect.  Northern and Southern accents pretty well represent, from what I've read in the docs and GDB, and experienced, about what areas tend to have the most population circulation within themselves.  Rinthi and Tribal accents are both appropriate inclusions as well.  Giving D-elves some sort of accent would be nice, but their is already a language barrier which has more profound implications for social interactions anyway.  Accents for nonnative speakers before perfecting their languages might be nice as well, but the language scrambler already gives a sense of this.  

As far as having "only" two main accents, it's been suggested to add more fine distinctions of accent, discernible only to those who are local enough to be able to tell the difference, but this also opens up questions of "my Tuluki has lived in the rinth for six years and should be able to distinguish eastside/westside by now" which have to be modified manually, or else the system is complicated tenfold codewise.  These situations can already be handled quite effectively with RP, which is how I think most would probably prefer to handle it.

I'll also say again that mimicing an accent is extremely difficult, much more difficult than learning another language.  There could be a possibility of adding this ability to the mud's benefit, as long as this fact was taken into account.

Over all, language system=pretty amazing and close to perfect, and I'm picky on the matter. Characters have a lot of room to roleplay questions of regionalism and language, and have code support to see the obvious, realistic indications of origins in someone's speech.  That's damn good.

[sjanimal]

I can assure you all that there is a point to what I'm trying to say, but It's too late at night for me to formulate a coherent argument.  Alas.  I'll try to write a couple of paragraphs that...hopefully can get enough of my point across that someone smarter or with more time on their hands can pick up the torch.  

Here is an example.  Take a wealthy scholar type character who might be under the employ of a noble House in Tuluk.  Such a person might be very well educated and might have spent much of his life in study, and around refined people with money.  

Let's say this fellow decides to have lunch with a graduate of the Atrium.  It seems likely to me that both of these persons might have the same sort of refined accents and speach patterns.  

Now take a road worker who works on the roads near Tuluk.  Most of the people he talks to and associates with are also Tuluk road workers.  I would suggest that roadworkers probably migrate back and forth between Tuluk and Allanak rather freely.  They probably go where the road contracts are.  If Red Storm decided to expand it's road system, they would probably go there as well.  Road workers from Tuluk or Allanak might have smiliar lifestyle, and probably speach patterns as well.

How about a more inner city accent, like a 'Rinth Rat.  Now here is an accent that very well might have it's own flavor.  Or maybe a southside Allanak accent.  

To this, how about heritage?  Would an inner city elven fellow have the same kind of family background as a human?  

And yet, the Tuluk scholar, the Tuluk road worker, the Tuluk farmer, the Tuluk noble, the Tuluk city rat and the Tuluk prostitue will all have the same accent, no matter how illogical this is.

And yet, the Allanak scholar, the Allanak road worker, the Allanak farmer, the Allanak noble, the Tuluk city rat and the Allanak prostitue will all have the same accent, no matter how illogical this is.

And yet, if you mixed the two groups, the oil and water would seperate, which is a completely illogical result.  

Let's think about it.  You can pick your race.  You can pick your class.  You can can pick your gender.  You can pick your height.  You can pick your weight.  You can pick your clothing and tattoos.  But for some reason, you're stuck with the accent the code picks for you, no matter how illogical?

My argument is that education, occupation, family and ethnicity will contribute more to accent than geography in a game area the size of Montana.  

You all are giving some valid arguments, no doubt about it, but your arguments:

--We'd have to change the code, which would be work

--Some people wouldn't roleplay their ethnicity otherwise

--Montana is a big state

Yes, changing the code would be hard work.  We would all reap the benefits.
Yes, some people wouldn't roleplay their ethnicity.  But we all shouldn't suffer cuz these noobs don't feel like roleplaying it.  

Regardless of your feelings on this, no doubt you can agree that hard coding anything will usually decrease roleplay expression, rather than creating it.  My argument stems from the idea that we should have greater opporunity for role-play, not less.

[Xamminy]

I don't think that our claim is that there should be -NO- accents.

But I think that some characters (linguists for example) should be able to modify their accents.

Okay, I never said there should be no accents...but the only way so that noone will know where you are from based off accent is to have none.

I also never said that I thought noone should be able to switch accents.  However, from what I understand, for anyone to be able to switch accents will take an overhaul of how accents work codewise.  (Mind that I do have some insight into this that you don't, sjanimal, but will not explain further.)

Also, has been said a couple times, using numerics (1, 2, 3, 4) in speech DOES bypass language code, just like emoting speech.  Don't do it, please?  Also, as I said, numerics aren't words.  Also, as Bestatte hinted at, there are different ways to say, "300."  Three hundreds, six piles of fifty, three small...etc.  Be creative, as we are working to create a story here, and creativity is part of that.

Back to accents, though, yes, I think it'd be great to learn accents and switch between them...I don't think the work necessary is worth it right now when we have plenty of other things that really do need work, whereas accent code doesn't really need it, just could use it to make it better.

[Maybe42or54]

Instead of Montana, Let's compare Zalanthas to something much smaller.
Something more along the lines of Germany during the Germanic Wars.
Now, During those wars, where the different tribes were at war. Hypothetically, you could go from tribe to tribe, even though they all spoke germanic, and not understand what they were saying.

[Linedel]

Also, as Bestatte hinted at, there are different ways to say, "300." Three hundreds, six piles of fifty, three small...etc. Be creative, as we are working to create a story here, and creativity is part of that.

While possibly a method of avoiding "going around the code," it isn't very good roleplaying to do business using a system that isn't canonical.  (Meaning "Three hundred" and "300" (being the same) would be "realistic," but "six piles of fifty" would almost never be "realistic." *)

Numbers are typically used for business transactions.  You don't make up stupid.. er.. creative ways to say what you're trading.  You use simple things that won't be mis-understood so you don't get a dagger through the lung later.  (edit:  stupid meaning stupid to use in trade with angry people, not that Xamminy's example was stupid.)

IF using numbers is considered "going around the code";  it should probably be changed to use some intelligent scrambling of numbers that takes into account that pretty much everyone in Tuluk of lower middle class or lower would have a pretty good chance of knowing numbers in every tribal language and maybe a couple others due to the cities' "diversity".

It could even be argued that many Tulukis should start with 5-10 skill in those same languages.  (Or leaving their actual skill at 0, but having a check that prints it to them as if their skill were 5-10, such that it doesn't improve immediately...)

Kind of like Los Angeles.  Everyone here knows a little Spanish...


One could also point out that the "list" and "offer" commands use numbers.  Someone that doesn't speak sirihish can go into any shop and type "list."  (If this is inaccurate, slap me around.)  If the code is god (and I don't believe it is), then it does not support any argument for removing numbers because of this.

Note also that shop interaction commands are an abstraction.  You are NOT asking the merchant to tell you everything that he has, and the price of it.  You're using those commands OOC to get an idea what is in the shop, such that you can make an informed decision as to what would catch your character's eye and actually ask the shopkeeper about.  One could easily argue that seeing numbers in say/tell is the same - you could make a judgement call OOC as to whether your character has enough familiarity with the language/accent to understand it.



* My comment above refers to obsidian.  For common trade commodities, it might be a GoodThing(TM) to define weird units for these; "piles" is a poor choice.  See the English system of units for examples.  Searching the internet found:

http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units

perfect example, varying by item:

bag [2]
an old English unit of weight, varying with the contents of the bag but generally in the range of 2-4 hundredweight (100-200 kilograms).



And while digging up the above (mostly due to the variance in the "bag" unit)... I realized a non negligible part of the number problem is due to OOC reckoning.  (It always comes down to players... people pointing fingers at code aside.)  IC, characters would recognize potential inaccuracies in raw materials as something that occurs.  In fact, they'd rarely notice them consciously.  If you received a bushel of whatnots, which is a bag of a certain size filled with whatnots, you'd receive a bushel of whatnots.  In-game, this may be 47 items that fill a large grey sack.  When the player removes these from the sack, he may count them OOC.  Knowing OOC that the sack object carries 47, when he receives 46 he will know he had a short amount.  Some players will realize OOC that the code is limited... many won't.  Many now bring that knowledge that the bag object carries 47 whatnots IC, and go after the supplier.

Seems to me to fix this OOC/IC crossover, that the atomic age precision of construction of every item in the game should be removed.  A solution to this is trivial code-wise, add a random 10-20% variance to the capacity of every "common" container object at object creation.  This eliminates the ability for players to metagame fixed object capacities.  (And adds the ability to metagame using small bags!)



I'm not sure what my point is.. I think I'm just cluttering the discussion space with details nobody wants to consider to support that I think the code is fine for both the accent and numbers issues, because "realism" requires far more depth of analysis than anyone here is posting, and whatever is decided, it will still be broken in some aspect...   Making good OOC decisions as to what your character failed to comprehend always trumps code.

Let the code guys work on stuff that actually impacts more than 3 people a year...


Since their players are consciously determining how to interpret everything they see, half-giants may be the only characters roleplaying numbers correctly!

[Xamminy]

Linedel, do you speak in numbers...or do you speak in words?  When you speak, are you saying, 'two,' or '2?'