Language accent's

[Bestatte]

Actually, when I say the word represented by the symbol 2, I say something that isn't pronounced with a "w" in the middle. It's just that odd quirky English language that sticks that w in there. I think that's a bit picky really, because numbers -and- letters are both symbols to represent other things, and each are used in text to get a message across.

As I said previously, I don't like seeing numbers in speech on text games, but I don't make an issue of it because it's just a personal thing for me, because I like reading the game text as though I was reading a novel. And in novels, characters aren't presented as using the numeric symbol when they speak about numbers.

[Angela Christine]

Two, Too, 2 and To are all pronounced exactly the same way.  Two and 2 have exactly the same meaning, and are pronounced the same way.  Sometimes I use the numeric symbol rather than the alphabetical symbol, not to get around the language code (does anyone actually do that?) but because I often forget how to spell eight, forty and several other irksome words.  If there was a way to write luietenant without spelling I'd use that too, that one trips me up all the time.  Unfortunately people disaprove of contractions too, and assume Lt. is being pronounced ell-tee, which is absurd.  

Death to standardized spelling!


Angela Christine.

[Linedel]

Linedel, do you speak in numbers...or do you speak in words? When you speak, are you saying, 'two,' or '2?'

Neither.  I make the T variant of the T/D sound, at the beginning of a vowel that in this century happens to be in a certain part of my throat.  (the English vowels, in every word, have shifted several times.)

What does "two" represent, anyways?  and when?

It's all a representation of something.  When Zalanthian people say the number that in their language that represents the quanity '2', how do we know they aren't actually saying fhqwhgadshg?
 
The real issue is whether this representation of the incredibly complex concept of language comprehension is more accurately represented by allowing or disallowing digits.

It would require an incredible amount of effort to write decent language code.  The current system is a complete joke, really...  (edit: joke with respect to languages.  it's perfect for the game.)   If you took all the development time spent on Armageddon's code, and put all that time into doing some sort of language comprehension system, you MIGHT have a halfass version.  There's a reason babelfish/google/whoever blows at it - 'cause its hard.  (And that's just a translator.. before you can do decent guesses at how much was understood, you have to be able to translate.)

In my opinion, any time spent "improving" language code will basically be wasted.  It will never be good enough to prevent metagaming, which is what this thread is really about, for both the original and spawned issues.

The solution to metagaming: sic Halaster on the people that do it.


( fhqwhatever: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail9.html )

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Probably an uninformed and silly question.. I've heard of powergaming, but what is 'metagaming'?

[SanityAssassin]

It would probably take more time and effort than it is worth to overhaul the current language system.  I can see a small tweak here and there, but major effort is better spent on other projects.  

I find it incredibly annoying to see numbers instead of words used to express numeric values in conversational text.  

I find it personally jarring. It just looks awkward to me, and "feels" wrong so I won't ever do it. I tried looking in novels for characters talking about costs of things, or sizes, or other numeric expressions. I found many, and none of them used the numeric symbols in their text-created speech.

I couldn't have put it better myself, although I probably find it more aggravating than Bestatte does.  

While we are on the subject of language, acronyms and abbreviations are also inappropriate for most fantasy settings.  Writing Sgt. instead of Sergeant to save yourself two seconds in a role playing conversation is lazy.  It looks extremely modern and is pretty jarring to the person on the other side.  It is only a small step from swapping 'u' for 'you' in conversations or using modern slang.  I'd rather see something misspelled than abbreviated.  Acronyms, to be blunt, have no place in Armageddon whatsoever.

I understand that many players do not have English as their native tongue.  That is why I don't get too upset at minor spelling/grammar errors in conversations.

[SanityAssassin]

Metagaming is basically using knowledge that your player couldn't possibly know.  Included are actions that have no roleplaying logic or value yet give some benefit to your character- I think the common term for this is 'powergaming'.  

A certain amount of metagaming is to be expected.  It is impossible to eliminate and relatively harmless in small doses.  For example, everyone metagames to a certain extent when character building.  The bad thing is that outrageous metagaming can be very disruptive to roleplaying games.  I am pretty sure the Armageddon staff frown on metagaming.

Some examples:

•   A unique weapon, the Bonesword of Trogdor-Slaying, spawns in a certain cave every reboot.  After every reboot you immediately log on and rush to the cave, claiming the sword before anyone else does.

•   A friend asks you via AIM for help bringing down a rival.  The two of you concoct a plan OOC to PK the rival.  You monitor when he logs onto the Armageddon Boards and AIM to find a good time for a PK.  

•   Robotically performing skills for IC days without rest with the sole purpose of "raising stats".

I think you get the idea.  At best, it's cheesy.  At worst, it can ruin an entire game (particularly when PK is involved).  Most bad tabletop games are that way because of excessive metagaming, and I am inclined to say the same goes for MUDs.

[SanityAssassin]

Please erase this post.

[Bestatte]

There's another RPI I tried for awhile, that did something interesting with their language system. The game is also a modified DIKU and shares many similarities to ours, though the genre is completely different.

If I remember right, learning the language would gradually let you understand certain words, so for instance, of the course of a week, you would -always- recognize the word "the" when spoken by someone speaking that other language. Then a day later you'd recognize "to" and "animal" and "yes sir" etc. etc. etc.

There were a few things about that game that really grabbed my attention, such as that and actual injuries when you get hurt...injuries that needed to be treated or you'd lose a limb to infection, etc. etc. etc...the language thing was another that stood out in my mind.

I still like Arm better, but if the Arm staff was to ever wipe the language system and rewrite, something like that would be pretty neat to see here.

Personally I don't mind it the way it is, it does what it's intended to do, and does it just fine.

[Linedel]

Powergaming is not quite the same as metagaming

Metagaming is taking actions based on OOC knowledge of rules or implementation of the game.  Armageddon lingo generally calls this twinking... but twink has a different meaning in basically every community it is used in (interesting tie-in to the accent part of the thread, where virtual communities do tend to create a minor sub-language), so I don't like using the term.  (In Nettrek, twink meant a clueless newbie.  In EverQuest, twink refers to a low level character given powerful equipment so he can level quickly (powerlevel).  In Armageddon, it seems to mean metagaming.)

Powergaming is taking actions intended to have your character be as powerful as possible.  Most powergaming uses metagaming to gain the most effect, but some small portion of powergaming is outside that, and "could" be somewhat IC.  (Though creating a character for which powergaming is "IC" is probably frowned upon..)

Choosing to "flee west" rather than "flee north" because you know that standard Gamma Diku tracking code derived from the tracking code SillyMUD released a decade ago generally searches direction 0 (north) before direction 3 (west), and thus giving your character a better chance to survive than your partner, who just typed "flee" is a good example of metagaming that wouldn't really be powergaming, but is likely something you shouldn't do.  (I almost guarantee Armageddon doesn't use that code... the game actually runs with plenty of mobs that use track... un-necessary malloc calls aren't good in that environment.)


To the word replacing code Bestatte mentioned - this would only make the metagaming worse.  You'd only have to guess half the words OOC to figure out the sentence :)   (It also adds the ability for players to occasionally typo key words if they happen to know someone is listening... which the replacement code would now miss.)

[Xamminy]

Okay, this is starting to go more and more off topic, but to explain my position on the first derailed portion...

My point was, you speak in words.  '2' is not a word, but 'two' is.  Yes, '2' and 'two' mean the same thing, but only on a simple level.  Truly, '2' does not represent the word 'two,' but the word 'two' represents the numeric '2.'  The word describes something else, in this case the numeric, which can then describe or quantify a third thing.  The reverse is not the same.  Taken to the extreme, it would mean that I could throw a cow at someone instead of saying the word 'cow' and the meaning would be the same.

Yes, I know that this is a very fine point of language study and philosophy, but it is something I think bears saying.

As far as code goes, typing the numeric instead of the word that represents the numeric does bypass language code.  Granted, anyone that wants to do this, since all they are getting across is numbers, can feel free, but know that by doing so you are letting people have some insight into your conversation that should not have such insight.  Personally, I'd rather keep the poor saps that don't speak the language I am as muc in the dark as possible.

Now, back on topic...

Yes, you pick up a bit of the accent of your teacher, but your accent still shows through predominantly.  If nothing else, for the suggested idea to be realistic, it would have to show something more like...

The dirty-blond haired, scruffy man says in northern-accented sirihish with a slight rinthi accent:
"Screw this!"

I really don't think putting that much effort into the language code is necessary and am fine where it is at the moment.

[Angela Christine]

While we are on the subject of language, acronyms and abbreviations are also inappropriate for most fantasy settings.  Writing Sgt. instead of Sergeant to save yourself two seconds in a role playing conversation is lazy.  It looks extremely modern and is pretty jarring to the person on the other side.  It is only a small step from swapping 'u' for 'you' in conversations or using modern slang.  I'd rather see something misspelled than abbreviated.  

Yeah, lets get rid of contractions too.  Swapping "can't" for "can not" is only a small step from swapping "u" for "you".  :roll:


Angela Christine

[Anonymous]

Yeah, lets get rid of contractions too.  Swapping "can't" for "can not" is only a small step from swapping "u" for "you".

Can't is to Cannot as Sarge is to Sergeant.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

When I lived in California, you could tell where a cat was from in the state generally by listening to how he spoke. Folks from up North tended to use less slang, while folks from the middle of the state practically invented their own sub-english language, and the homies from down South used plenty slang but were not so colorful and essentric.

The accents code is good, and I have little problem with it. Remember, after all, Tuluk was created or drawn together, whatever, by a Northern barabarian. Apparently the culture was different enough even back then for the line to be drawn, since a barabarian is only called such by those who feel that their culture is more superior.