The feud

[Anonymous]

I have noticed something. I was always under the impression that the north and the south hated eachother, that they were hostile. However, I nver see ANY resentment. I see southerners in tuluk, and i see northerners in Allanak. In teh north, many peopel cling to and take kindly to teh southerners. But when Someone goes and says something about them being from allanak, all the nmortherners Start up "don't judge them because they are from allanak!" blah blah blah! People! I mean cummon. I thought southerners were heathens, and the same for the northerners in the south. What happened to the feud?

[mansa]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=101581#101581

Read that thread.

[Savak]

Good question.

I see occasional icky comments one vs. the other, but little else.  I think some people are finding it difficult because the merchant Houses operate fairly openly & freely in both places, and people seem to think this is an easy thing.  But, as we all should know, nothing is easy in Zalanthas..except death.

[Anonymous]

You're telling me it's supposed to be a calmer point in history? So I am supposed to be neutral to southerners in Tuluk or northerners in allanak? Just look frmo the point of view that you can ALWAYS see the ruins of the old city from Tuluk now, and it seems to be a reminder of allanak's occupation. I even brought that up in the game. I don't understand how we are supposed
to be nice to southerners with things like that hanging around. (it's mostly southerners in Tuluk, for some reason not many northerners are in Allanak).

[mansa]

Seriously.

Read this thread:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=101581#101581

It has some stupid posts, and some very well thought out posts.  This is from last week.  This whole thread is the exact same one as that one, from last week.

Perhaps I should just copy and paste the 'best moments' of the thread, so it is easier for everybody to read...

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I agree entirely with the original poster, but I think the reason we don't see more 'Nakki-Tuluki hatred is because (of all things) our low playerbase.
Think about it. In game, you're supposed to hate:
-Anyone that isn't your race.
-Anyone that has magickal powers.
-Anyone from a different city-state.
-Anyone from a different culture (like a tribal, or a 'Rinther).
-Anyone that's just a general, all-round dickhead.
Now, there are about fifty players online at any one time. Statistically, you're supposed to be hating the vast majority of them. It gets annoying to be at odds with every single person you meet.
So, I figure most players begin to rationalize things for the sake of actualy having some friends. Such as, "Well, he may be a dirty 'Nakki, but at least he's a full-blooded human like me. And we're both hunters, so we've got that going" or "He might be a thieving, conniving longneck, but we're both hardluck 'Rinthers with a burning hatred for the Southside, so we can get along in that sense, at least."
Anyways, with more players to fill in the various cultures, factions, occupations, and races of the game, I believe we will see the amount of roleplayed racism, nationalism and hatred increase.
But for now, it's awful hard to hate that half-elf when he's the only other active PC around.

[Delirium]

I actually see a lot more hatred from southerners toward any outsiders than I ever see from northerners to southerners, even though the Tuluki were the ones occupied all those years...

I think one thing that may have something to do with this is that in the south, the Allanaki aren't shy about letting you know they don't like you. It takes little talent to start openly insulting someone and get into an argument with them. (No offense, but..)

While in the north, it's more likely to take the form of hidden barbs and sly insults and "offhand" comments and snickers behind the hand, and giving the offender the cold shoulder.. stuff like that. Not just walking up and picking a fight and throwing punches.

Tuluk is relatively new in the scheme of things and I think people just have a hard time figuring out how to play a northerner. The lines also tend to blur because of what Savak said - you see a lot of PCs from the "other" city because of the merchant houses, and that can make it difficult.

But it is my personal opinion that anyone who's saying the equivalent of "peace and love and equality for all" should have their characters undergo some incredible, mindlessly horrific torture until they snap and suddenly realize that Zalanthas Is Not A Pleasant Place To Be, And There Is No Room For Your Sodding Hippie Shit Here.

[X-D]

What Delirium said.

Also, We in the north tend to act friendly enough but then the southerner disappears.

I myself tend to play my northerns as more artful in everything, from insults to killing. In the north an artful assassination is respected.

If I play in the south I tend to play more openly brutal, perfectly willing to let others know that my char killed that guy or mugged, whatever. The south is more of a might is right place so one must display that might, wether it be combat prowess, money or station.

I know that many others play in like manner

[Cuusardo]

I would expect to see more blatant hatred in Allanak, but not in Tuluk.  It is the nature of the south to be blunt and to the point, where in the north people will use tact and subtlety.

Keep this in mind: For everyone in Tuluk who doesn't display a vehement hate of southerners, they more than likely have a good reason.  Perhaps they are planning to stab a particular southerner in the back or seriously screw him over in some way.  Maybe they have some use for the southerner and are going to milk him for all he is worth.  They might have a hit out on that southerner and don't want to give said southerner clues that he is pissed off at him.  It could be anything, really.

Just because someone says something does not necessarily make it true.   :wink:

[Anonymous]

It's because...
1) People are pussies and conflict means their character might not live to see 100 days.

2) Becoming a source of conflict/hatred makes you a target for too many PCs that are looking for something "real" they can take out. In other words, if you're a northern-hating southerner, even there's probably 1000s of VNPCs with that view, you're the PC that people can target and kill.

3) If you get too powerful and hate a certain group, prepare to learn the meaning of the term Deus ex Machina unless your hatred fits into the current plotlines.

[Agent_137]

It's likely both.

Some are roleplaying good tuluki's who are more sly about their hate.

Some are just bad roleplayers who haven't read the docs or don't give a shit.

Some have real good reasons to not dislike nakki's, like they've moved between the cities so much they just don't give a shit anymore.

[Xamminy]

3) If you get too powerful and hate a certain group, prepare to learn the meaning of the term Deus ex Machina unless your hatred fits into the current plotlines.

This sounds like an accusation.  Trust me though, AK, that anything that could be construed along these lines is never taken lightly and never has only one staff member involved.  Also, to be honest, anything that could be construed as 'deus ex machina' is part of a plotline, NOT in absence of a plotline.

[Bogre]

I have noticed something. I was always under the impression that the north and the south hated eachother, that they were hostile. However, I nver see ANY resentment. I see southerners in tuluk, and i see northerners in Allanak. In teh north, many peopel cling to and take kindly to teh southerners. But when Someone goes and says something about them being from allanak, all the nmortherners Start up "don't judge them because they are from allanak!" blah blah blah! People! I mean cummon. I thought southerners were heathens, and the same for the northerners in the south. What happened to the feud?

Funny. I talk bad about southerners and suspise them all the time, and I haven't seen any "OMG THEY ARE FRENDS". Maybe your character just is too loud about it, too brash, and maybe the other characters are trying to -help you stay outta trouble-.

[JollyGreenGiant]

There are hostilities.  Even overt ones.  This has been quite an interesting week.

[Anonymous]

Hey bogre, my point exactelly. It's not their job to, it's their job tro roleplay their characters the right way. They should have their own views, not worrying about keeping my character alive.

[Anonymous]

It doesnt say anywhere that you have to hate someone, or should hate someone, the helpfiles give reasons why you can hate someone.  But in a "harsh world" hating everyone you come across, would be contrary to what would happen in reality.  Most people would probably try to work together just to survive.  Most of the reasons for fighting is for food, or wealth, or power, not very often hate.  This is shown in our history, sometimes hate is used as an excuse, but the real reason is almost always one of the 3 reasons I gave.

[Agent_137]

BUT

Man is afraid of what he doesn't understand, often.

This can turn into hate.

[Anonymous]

It can, but surely you must realise that every, or even most Zalanthians dont "judge a book by its cover".  If they run into several people from another city, and they are all mean, then they might have reason to take that city.  But all it takes is to know one good person from the city or tribe, then most of the characters will have a different view.

And men dont hate things they dont understand, generally, they fear them, and fear does lead to hate in some cases, like magickers, and mindbenders.  But compared to those, other men from different tribes/cities/races dont seem so different from themselves, and that similarty, or even a union of a common hatred (like magickers) can bring them closer together.

[Anonymous]

*hate that city, not take, lol

[Agent_137]

I think you are also failing to consider upbringing.

If you are brought up, and everyone around you hates tulukis because templars hate tulukis because the highlord hates tulukis, then you're going to hate tulukis, at least on the outside.


I'm not saying you can't overcome this as a character. I've had characters that have, but i think you're also not looking at the idea that a prejudice makes life simpler and easier.

Giving everyone a chance is hard work. Especially in a world where it's easy to die, and most people have no compunction against taking you for all you're worth. You will identify with your community/family unit/friend base closely, and be suspicious or hateful of your neighbors. Look at early human civilization.

They do just that, depend on each other, and might reach out suspiciously to their neighbors. If the neighbors bite, it turns to hate. If the neighbors don't, it turns into a tentative trade relationship.

In Zalanthas, they bite.

[Kill4Free]

Well, in all the chars I've had, only one was shown hatred towards ((this was a long time ago) by some members of the legion I might add, who showed hatred towards the wrong other people and died because of it.  And that was mostly cause I was a half elf.

Upbringing does go into effect, but I bet that almost all of the chars we play have no normal upbringing, most probably resulted from the parents early death, or grew up the the streets.  The vnpc's might all be brought up to hate, but I doubt that the vast majority of the playerbase was brought up in a normal family (who followed the templars directives, and brought their children to hate).

Not to mention that not all races are hated,  or even most.  Most of their advantages, and can be respected, and are in fact used by both cities, templars, and nobles, for their various specific skills (the most probable exception to this would be half-elves, they generally are looked down upon by everyone).

[Agent_137]

Upbringing does go into effect, but I bet that almost all of the chars we play have no normal upbringing,

I hate to dominate this thread, but I always have something else to say, so damnit, i'm going to say it.


I don't think the vast majority of PCs should be abnormal from birth. Sure, you don't want to play the VNPC that sweeps the kadian shop all day, then goes home to sleep and eat, then sweeps some more, but you don't need an extraordinary upbringing to play your character.

In fact, none of my characters have had abnormal upbringings, and very few had any parents that were dead.

I'm not real keen on PCs that are the exception to the rule, espescially if I begin to see lots of them.

Most of their advantages, and can be respected, and are in fact used by both cities,

Use does not entail respect. Elves are good at stealing. Very few people are going to -respect- that, though they may hire one to steal something.
Magickers are used by Allanak, but they sure aren't respected.

I hate to see this game shift toward happy, accepting characters.

Code Select Expand

Murder. Corruption. Betryal.

If your character breaks the typical mode, have a good good reason for it. Also, it'd be nice to see less of these good good reasons built into the background.

So your character overcomes his prejudice against half-elves, wouldn't it be better if it happened in game where you could actually experience the reason? (or not experience the reason, and go on being prejudiced.)

Now, to be clear, I'm not advocating that every nakki' human HATE elves and half-elves and tulukis and go out of their way to screw them over at the first opportunity. But it's very poor following of the docs if you are merely nuetral or even friendly to these groups without strong reason.

Also, please bear in mind the difference between hate and prejudice. Prejudice may involve hatred, but they are far from the same thing.

I get the feeling now that we all really agree, even if we don't understand that we do.

[Kill4Free]

Generally, you dont hate someone you use, you make look down upon them as pawns, but you probably dont hate em.

And just because your characters had a normal upbringing doesnt mean everyones did, as I recall there was a post a while ago, with a vote on the chars background (sorry if I am really scetchy on that) but most of the people (who replied anyway) had some sort of weird thing happen to them when they were getting brought up.

Although only truly an Imm could answer that as they do
But a society that is brought up to hate everything, generally doesnt live long.

[Maybe42or54]

Personally, I am usually the son of a whore.
Lots of whores. A lotta kids they don't care about. Who cares what one is doing? My thoughts.

Alright. I agree with Agent.

[Kill4Free]

As for magickers that are used in Allanak, they are respected, and even valued, it is magickers that are hiding their ability that are hated, or feared.

[Kill4Free]

I hate people who hate people.

[jstorrie]

Kill4Free, don't think for a moment that your average Nakki won't hate those damned, stinking finger-waggling magicians just because they've got gems on them.  Gemmed magickers are only tolerated because if you start killing them off, the templars (might) get miffed and kill -you-.

[Kill4Free]

None of my chars hated them
I guess I just dont have enough hate in me.

[Kill4Free]

I guess in the end, the reason to hate, or not hate someone depends on the personality of the PC player.  Some people like to hate others (in the game anyway), some people like to use their power to the fullest extent, and get people to hate them.
But in the end, it comes down to can you bring yourself to hate someone, who never did anything wrong to you.

[Agent_137]

I guess in the end, the reason to hate, or not hate someone depends on the personality of the PC player.  Some people like to hate others (in the game anyway), some people like to use their power to the fullest extent, and get people to hate them.
But in the end, it comes down to can you bring yourself to hate someone, who never did anything wrong to you.

It's ROLEPLAYING.


PLAY THE ROLE.


Don't let your OOG feelings interfere.


If you were in a movie, and had to play a bad guy, could you?

I bet you could. It's just a ROLE.


What's the difference with armageddon?

It's a ROLE.




-----
Sorry if the post comes off too strong. I don't mean to be offensive, but I am slightly tipsy.

[Incognito]

Although Zalanthans claim that there is no such thing as a free lunch on the Known Planet, I beg to differ.

Life is still easy, food, water and money comes easily, and hells - there's very little conflict!

What we really need:
1) Strong Northern/Southern conflicts/politics/plots.
2) Constant and public hatred between the two City-states.
3) Constant hatred from all, towards Kurac.
4) Once an RL year, destruction of a randomly-chosen location due to a random reason (be it storm, magickers, comets, earthquakes whatever).

Things are getting TOO easy here, folks are living to the ripe old age of past 100 in certain areas of the Known World. Heck it'd put most places on Earth to shame.

In short - You as a player need to have 2 goals, when you play a PC. First is the goal your PC has to whatever ends s/he has in mind for personal advancement in life. Second _should be_ your PC's goals to undermine the peace in whichever of the two City-states you're not a citizen to.  Folks who are not citizens to either Allanak or Tuluk would probably hate both those societies.

Remember:
More conflict = more fun RP!

If the players become too complacent, and widespread peace ensues, pretty soon the number of death's will decrease, the average age on Zalanthas will increase, the population will increase, eventually the natural resources will dwindle, and we might end up with a serious situation - but I'm not willing to wait that long!!!

[Tamarin]

And what of those of us who are spiritually enlightened nomads who couldn't care less about city vs city conflict, OR kurac?

[Kill4Free]

Or people who can benefit from trade with both cities, profits generally smooth minor differences out.
For example, lets say you had a neighbour, and you trade some of your beer, for some of his vodka, you really like beer, and he really likes vodka, and you both think you are getting the better of the deal.
Even if he was irritating, and was loud and stuff, causing minor problems, you are still getting what you want, and he is getting what he wants.
Have you noticed all the wagons in the wagonyards in both cities, there is obviously a lot of trade going on.

If you really wanted to break things up, the templar would have to ban trade basically, also there should be another reason to hate other cities, other then the fact they were at war a long time ago.
For instance, do all you americans still hate the germans?

And agent, it is roleplaying,  but that doesnt change anything really, unless I make a character that has a grudge against someone/something, I wont really hate someone until they show some reason for me to hate them.

Another dissapointing thing about feuds is people die off too soon. Just as soon as you get scared and angry and start putting plots into motion they run off and get killed by <insert NPC here>.

[Agent_137]

And agent, it is roleplaying,  but that doesnt change anything really, unless I make a character that has a grudge against someone/something

That's my only point, kill4free. The majority of the PCs should have grudges that reflect the VNPC population.

Read the docs, know what a typical prejudices for the area in which your character grew up, and have them.

Regardless of how good a person YOU are, the -vast- majority of people in zalanthas are not enlightened, pristine-souled people that never generalize someone into a particular stereotype. So play bad guys, play guys that are opportunists, play neutral guys. Play people with a decent heart, but still think all elves are thieves.

A lot of this is not so much that you HAVE TO HATE ELVES AND WANT THEM TO DIE, as, all your characters should have a high distrust for elves. Get what I'm saying?

[Kill4Free]

I understand having a distrust, but that doesnt necessarily mean open war.
Also newbie has a point, most characters that try to start something, end up dying soon.  It would be fun if there was a war, with small NPC groups, having a PC leading them, then it would actually involve strategy on a massive scale, also if the guards had rescue, the PC's wouldnt die off as fast, just the replacible NPC hoards would get killed.
Some people could abuse that to kill mekillots, but I imagin that the Imm's could put some code in to make sure the NPC's wont be in a fight that isnt theirs.  Also to make the NPC soldiers not very adept as the typical town ones are, but could be outfitted by PC's, so the weapon makers, and armor crafters would be in high demand, as well as raw materials, and coin, so every PC will be very highly valued, to produce various things needed for war.

I want a war now dammit!

[Kill4Free]

*tries to convert Zalanthas into a massive scale version of axis and allies*

[Agent_137]

Or, instead of NPCs just saving the PCs, which would have some trouble logically, just have NPCs that primarily attack NPCs . . .

Since VNPCs deal mostly only with VNPCs, it would make some sense.


instead of having PCs that get gangbanged by a bunch of NPC Half-Giants.

I'd rather die in a war to a PC over an NPC anyday.

Also makes some strategic sense. Have the HGs focus on HGs. Like tanks should focus on tanks, and not blowing up the little infantry soldiers running alongside.

[Kill4Free]

Now that I think about it, most of my chars grew up in the forest for some reason or other, they dont hate people until given a reason to.

[Ghost]

Have the HGs focus on HGs. Like tanks should focus on tanks, and not blowing up the little infantry soldiers running alongside.

In Dark Sun wars, the HGs on both sides of the armies are the first to charge, the rest of the armies wait behind.  This is called the clash of the Half Giants.  And after the HGs are done fighting, the rest of the armies join the fray.

And there is a saying like "If you are caught in the clash of the Half-Giants, you are (insert something that means fucked up)" something like that.
Maybe HG fellas are focusing each other, but they are accidentally putting their foot on you?  Who knows..  You are caught in the clash of Half-giants.
[/derailment]

[Akaramu]

Things are getting TOO easy here, folks are living to the ripe old age of past 100 in certain areas of the Known World. Heck it'd put most places on Earth to shame.

In short - You as a player need to have 2 goals, when you play a PC. First is the goal your PC has to whatever ends s/he has in mind for personal advancement in life. Second _should be_ your PC's goals to undermine the peace in whichever of the two City-states you're not a citizen to.

Remember:
More conflict = more fun RP!

I very much disagree with all of this.

I, and I am sure others as well, find it hard to even survive one IC year, without taking risks, and without doing stupid crap. Its not our fault some older players have figured out how to survive more easily. I dont feel like creating a new character every couple days because things arent challenging enough for the veteran players.

I also like to have my own goals, and so do my PCs. They dont see their whole existence as centered around stirring up conflict. Most of their goals are non-destructive. Raising a child. Striving towards having a garden to work with. Etc.

I also definitely dont consider conflict the most fun RP. In my experience conflict = PK = starting over. Do I want to see more non-deadly conflict? Yes. Do I consider starting over constantly without achieving any goal fun? No. The most fun RP experiences I've had were little well-played scenes that didnt have a death sentence sword hanging over them. Magickal research roleplay with another player. (In case you know who you are... you rock. Two thumbs up.) Small scenes with a loved one, and a virtual child. Seeing a templar interact with a VNPC I summoned up. Things like that.

[Agent_137]

I, and I am sure others as well, find it hard to even survive one IC year, without taking risks, and without doing stupid crap. Its not our fault some older players have figured out how to survive more easily

I find it hard to die in a clan. Just a suggestion.


And also, i think everyone else wants more non-mortal conflict, too. That's what we're talking about. No one really -wants- to lose their character.

[Kill4Free]

It isnt that hard to not lose a char, as the three previous chars I had were all rangers (I was still even pretty new) And they all lasted for a while, in fact woulda lasted ages longer, had I not done stupid things, like one, I forgot to draw my weapons when I attacked a tembo, another I was sparring with a newb, and got knocked out after a lucky hit, but he kept on attacking anyway (lol) and I went into critical, then I typed 'quit test', I was a bit annoyed with that.

[Akaramu]

I find it hard to die in a clan. Just a suggestion.

I find it incredibly easy to die in a clan unless youre someone important. 4 of my characters died to their clans or clans they tried to join. In one case directly, 3 times indirectly in a chain of events triggered by the clan.  :wink:

[Kill4Free]

Finally, I agree with Agent 100% on his last post, its just too risky to get into a war, as most NPC soldiers would kick our asses, and we would die for virtually no reason.

[ejusn]

The hate does occur. It just depends on who's doing the hating. Much like the booga-rooga dwarf thing, if that 'nak scum is buying your drinks, maybe you don't mind him so much. If you're a nak templar and you run across a northy, you're more likely to smoke him and make a little corpse-monument to honor the tuluki people.

Anyway, my whole point is: It IS occurring. Quite often.