Definition of powergaming

[Anonymous]

What is the definition of powergaming?

I always though it was doing unrealistic things to improve your skills, and doing things without emoting, is that right?

[mansa]

Help file time!

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?powergaming

POWERGAMING     (Newbie)

Powergaming is a term often applied to players who we feel are not acting in the roleplaying spirit of the game. Examples include doing unrealistic things in order to improve your character's skills (wearing two shields into combat, trying to steal repeatedly from an NPC that has felt the attempt and is shouting 'Thief, thief!'), doing things that your character would not realistically do (elves riding mounts, failing to react to a sorcerer), using information gleaned
through OOC information or experience with a previous character,    or
abusing code bugs.

Generally, any action spammed for the purpose of improving a skill may lead to staff comments, race/guild options being removed from your account, modifications to your character's skill or, if repeated, possible banning from the game. We urge you to use think and emote to reflect your character's action and motivations.

See also:
   roleplaying

[Anonymous]

I read the helpfile, and I followed all of those rules, but I was still talked mailed by a member of staff.  Who didnt explain anything about any rule I was breaking (it was a new staff member).  Although I was doing everything in moderation, I was playing for like 8-10 hours a day, and the amount of time I spend RL playing might have made it seem like it.  Thats the best I can think of.

[ashyom]

If you don't understand why the staffer felt that you were powergaming, do feel free to email that staffer back and ask for an explaination.  CC the mud as always.
Ashyom

[Anonymous]

Already did

But whats a realistic way to hunt, I dont hunt for more then a day or two at a time tops, I rest all night, I dont go outta my way to kill animals I dont need, and I kill bout 5 animals a day tops. :/

[ashyom]

Keep in mind I don't know who/why/where/what.  But here's some tips on what I look for in a good rp ...

Do you use thinks?  
This helps us staffers figure out your character's motives.  Even just a think or two of, "I need at least two carrus so I can pay that feck his rent," is great.  Or some grumbles about how you can't find tracks, or jubiliation over getting laid twice! in one night...

Do you emote?  
We understand that it's hard to emote sometimes in combat due to adrenaline.  But what about afterwards?  Do you wipe your brow, take a breather, then bend down to skin the corpse?  Do you scan for dangers, or start prowling about for tracks?   Fuss over your cuts?  Pray that they don't get infected?

Or do you just look for animals, chase it down, hop off the kank/inix/whatever, attack it, skin it, hop back up on the mount and ride some more til you find the next one?  This isn't the greatest - keep in mind, I still don't know what exactly it is you did that prompted the comment, but I have seen this behavior from even some of the more experienced rp'ers. *Cough*  We staffers are not psychic, unfortunately, so a hunting trip that lacks emotes/thinks tends to, well, look kinda like powergaming.  This is true for any other type of adventures or activities in-game, also.

Try to look at this comment as not a scold, but rather as constructive criticism.  We want you to enjoy yourself, we want others to enjoy your rp, and make the world as rich and 'real' as possible.  The best way to do that is to provide feedbacks on how to improve.  Hope this helps you see our perspective.
Ashyom

[Anonymous]

I read your post, and did find it very helpful.

One thing I never do though is think, I just never really thought of it as a command that I should be using.


The thing that bothered me about the mail from the admin, is he said i was "blatantly spam-hunting" and I quite honestly feel that is incorrect.

But thanks for the advice, I will use thinking more often.

[Edited by Ashyom to remove IC portions]

[X-D]

What I often wonder is if anybody thinks there is a difference between "powergaming" And a char IC'ly working for more power?

What exactly is unrealistic practice? And is it taken on a char by char basis as it should be? I mean, if you have a dwarf who has the focus of become the best archer in the known world, it -would- be IC for him to live eat breath archery, practice or in some way work at it every waking minute of his life and even dream about it. And, that would apply to other races as well, to a lesser extent.

Also.

Do you use thinks?
This helps us staffers figure out your character's motives. Even just a think or two of, "I need at least two carrus so I can pay that feck his rent," is great. Or some grumbles about how you can't find tracks, or jubiliation over getting laid twice! in one night...

Some of us, specialy the ones who were around LONG before the think command or karma simply do not use the command, I've tried and well, I simply cannot do it, simply the idea that I -should- justify my chars actions to staff feels twinky to me. Then to actually do it...cringe. That and at times I simply do not want staff to know, though I trust most them, it is hard for anybody to seperate out what is basicly OOC information from IC play, wether intentional or not, and I -have- seen it happen. I know it is a staff tool and makes it so that they do not have to spend nearly as much time watching one char to figure out what they are up to, and so, it is good that it exists. But don't expect everybody to use it.


On emoting, as has so often been said, though it adds color to the world and many other things besides, emoting is NOT roleplay.  And some things, you simply are not going to emote out every single time..or at least I will not, if it is something that my char has to do alot and I'm pretty sure I'm the only PC about, I think 1 emote for every 3-4 actions is plenty.

I like that there is new staff though, and I take no offense at pretty much any comments, basicly being happy that anybody is paying attention at all, just keep in mind, my play style may be far from yours, as long as I am in the rules and being true to my char, please do not ask me to change my style to yours.

[Canadian Beaver]

I completely agree with everything X-D said. Especially the part about thinking. I recently received my account notes and spotted a few 'uses no thinks' in them. Makes me start to feel like I'm doing something wrong by not thinking. As far as I knew it wasn't mandatory that you use 'think'. It was an optional tool for us to use. Some of us just don't like using think.

[SRB]

I use think with all of my characters. It is an integral part to my experience, and really helps me flesh out the persona of each individual character.

With that said, I feel it should not[/u] be mandatory to actually use the command. It's not mandatory for us to use emote, therefore the same could be applied to 'think'. It is not there to be enforced. It is there to provide an option for players whom wish to expand their pc's unique personality.

Subpoints:

1) 'Think' is perfect for scheming characters whom are far more cerebral than physical. This aspect increases their self roleplay, and gives the staff a better idea of "who they are" since their action in physical terms pales in comparison to that of a buff warrior who smites all.

2) 'Think' can either be cast aside or used in a pc whose focus is single-minded. When I play characters such as these, I tend to keep my "thinks" clear, concise, and to the point. I use the command only when something pertinent to my current focus becomes obvious to myself and possible others who may be watching.

3) 'Think' is perfect for "clutter thoughts", or "junk". Random things that may have nothing whatsoever to do with your objective/destination/vendetta/quest.
ie Thinking about that fat juicy sand-beetle you just squashed on the bottom of your mocs.

Conclusion:

Think is wonderful for this game. I use it, as well as countless other players. Does that mean it has to be enforced? No. Should it be considered good play to use said command? Absolutely. Should it be considered bad play to use this command? Doubtful.

[Bestatte]

I rarely use think. One of my characters "thought" a lot. My current one only does so because I keep reading from the staff that we're supposed to. Personally I think (haha) it's silly. My character does what she thinks about, and thinks about what she does. The two are almost always the same, and doing both is usually redundant.

But hey - if they feel it's mandatory, I'll start tossing in a few "My farts smell strong today." and a bit of "Seven what? Unneeded. Red. Obsidian. Mate. Jozhal." for the hell of it. Because my character (like most people) doesn't really think in a conscious - decisive way. Thoughts are jumbled and often make no sense at all to anyone other than herself - and that's only when she happens to notice that she's doing it.

If that's what they want, sure. I'm game. I just hope I don't get any imm comments saying that my thoughts make no sense - unless they're complimenting me on "thinking" in a realistic manner.

[Lazloth]

I try to use it but..

Personally I think (haha) it's silly.

[Larrath]

Thinks are excellent tools.


Are you uncertain about something?

Maybe you're attempting to trick someone?

Want to tell that templar something but you just don't dare?

[Delirium]

Think's greatest use, IMHO, is to detail what your character wouldn't be saying out loud, but is (gasp) thinking to themselves. It's also useful for recalling memories of the past, mulling over recently important events, puzzling out how they're feeling about something or someone, etc, etc.

Me, I don't really think (no pun intended) about it any more - it's just sorta automatic to use the command whenever it seems appropriate.

[Anonymous]

My Definition is a person that has the code work before the emote. Obviously not wanting you to RP with them.

Example:

The hg soldier subdues you.
Despite your attempts to flee.

The templar points from the hg to you.

You later die.

[mansa]

My Definition is a person that has the code work before the emote. Obviously not wanting you to RP with them.

Example:

The hg soldier subdues you.
Despite your attempts to flee.

The templar points from the hg to you.

You later die.

Hey.  Strange.  That happened to someone yesterday, just as you say.

You forgot your beautiful emote:  

VICTIM frowns as TEMPLAR's guards magickly subdue THEM before TEMPLAR makes a gesture.

[Bestatte]

Amazing how anonymous kank knew - magickally - that the templar hadn't been in psionic contact with his soldiers the entire time..

And equally amazing how anonymous kank knew - magickally - that the soldiers didn't know their jobs well enough to subdue someone who had been told to go with their boss, and attempted to argue out of it.

I'd PM this - but you can't PM anonymous kanks.

[jstorrie]

I would say the most important reason to use thinks are that it's difficult to tell a character's motivations, even you watch them whenever they log in.  It may feel really, really obvious to you, the player, but characters can actually turn out to be pretty cryptic.

Along those lines - characters being cryptic - it can be tough to tell the difference between a spam-hunter and a very devoted hunter.  I would offer that taking the time to emote and think with your character will 'cap' him, sort of, since you'll spend half the time killing scrabs if you spend the other half thinking about and acting out the hunt, right?

I wouldn't worry to much, AK, about being unwelcome or getting a bad rap just because one of your early characters was a thinkless and emoteless hunter - nearly everyone plays one of those in their early days, I think.  I know my first (seriously played) character was one of those.  Don't feel too bad when you get some criticism, even if it's from an Imm and even if they sound pretty hostile.  They're just trying to make sure you don't fall into any bad habits.

And, to (finally) answer your question, powergaming is simply when you have your character do something that your character wouldn't really be motivated to do, just to improve them (and not necessarily skillwise - having a supposedly stupid, rash character who actually makes wise decisions because you, the player, doesn't want him to die could be considered powergaming, too).  Taking more time to think and emote will not only make sure immortals can know exactly whether you're powergaming or not - it will also serve as a check and balance so that you don't powergame without realizing it.

[Anonymous]

First off, I was talking about in general.

Using code before emoting what you are going to do when it comes to another pc.

For instance, seeing the HG coming at me, I coulda got up and fled, but no.
I could have waited and let him do it, Which was forced on me.
I could have attacked it.
I could have jumped at the templar.
I could have done many things.
Because of using code instead of emote, I and them were robbed of a potentially funner rp engagement.

[Vanth]

I don't *think* I was the imm who commented AK, but I have commented a couple of people recently (both positive and negative), so I will respond here.

I do not think that either emotes or thinks are strictly necessary, but, especially when you are performing actions that cause skill gains (hunting, crafting, etc.) they are helpful to us, and they also make us want to watch you, and that's not a bad thing.  We can help you out if there's a code glitch that affects you, or animate NPCs and add echoes that bring the world to life.

If you are performing repetitive skill-gain actions without any emotes, I will start to think you are a powergamer.  I do try to keep an open mind.  But where I personally draw the line is when you start disregarding the "realism" of the world around you: for example, spending all day crafting or hunting without rest OR emotes, or disregarding things like exhaustion or wounds.

I'm new on staff, but believe me when I say: we are not out to get you.  We would rather nudge you in the right direction than push you off a cliff.  For the most part, comments are just our way of communcating with you.  They are not necessarily a "red flag", unless you flagrantly continue in the behaviors we've said are inappropriate.

I have to say that with all the people I've watched since coming on staff, most of you are great.  You're doing fine and bringing the world to life every day.

(Disclaimer: the above are just my opinions and do not necessarily reflect those of other staff members.)

[mansa]

I'd like to say, I'm out to get you.

[jhunter]

I use think some of the time with my characters, but overall I pretty much agree completely with X-D.

[Anarchy]

For instance, seeing the HG coming at me, I coulda got up and fled, but no.
I could have waited....

When entering into a discussion, you need to look at both sides of the coin. Templars are players who have been given a great amount of trust from the staff, how do you know this templar just got sick and tired of people running away once he enters the room - he simple used the code against a criminal before he tossed in an emote. Just like the criminal used the code against the templar, by running away - without an emote, or under unrealistic conditions once the templar emoted sending giants after you. He still emoted? Didn't he? I dont understand the complaint - templar sent guards after criminal - they managed to grab you before you could run away, jump at the templar, etc.

[Anonymous]

It's been said, but I mostly use the think command when I am doing or saying something that is not representative of how my PC feels.  Such as talking nicely to someone my PC hates, doing something my PC hates doing, acting cool when my PC is nervous.  I also, when I think it's appropriate, try to let some of my PC's inner feelings bleed through in tell-tale emotes.

The only other times I've used think a lot that I can recall is when I play a magicker it's sort of fun to let the think narratives fly and see what sort of conclusions the magicker reaches about magick.

[Agent_137]

I always feel cheesed if some one does a critical code action (i.e. picking up a disarmed weapon) before they emote doing it.

So, I always try to emote first, even if it's a quick one.

I try to have leave the emote questionable about the outcome, and then let the code finish it, even if I -know- the outcome.

The fugly dude ducks away from the slashing swords, reaching for his spear.
The fugly dude pick up a spear.


I like thinks. Did I say this already? It helps me flesh out my character in my head, more than anything else.

Aight. Cool. Later.

[Xamminy]

As you sit in front of the computer, and think about what your character would do, you are going into your character...why not let us see into your character as well so that we know you're not a twinky powergamer?

AK, I'd suggest you understand that your character will suffer the consequences of his/her actions.  Nothing was twinky in that situation.  You simply don't have the information necessary to see that...IG information that you aren't going to get by bitching and moaning on the GDB.  I'm sorry if you feel slighted, but unfortunately, your character did what he did and suffered the consequences.  I hope you're having fun on your new character.

[Dakurus]

Thinks and emotes help flesh out your characters personality and motivations, in the former case for the staff, and in the latter, both the staff and the other players. Although we might be lucky enough to see you interact with another character and say things, roles where there is less interaction, such as players who are in the wilderness away from other people constantly, we're often left clueless to who your character is as a person.

I'm an old time armer, and think was implemented long after I started playing here. I admit having difficulty with it at first, but after repeatedly forcing myself to do it, I find it an invaluable tool. I realize that sometimes I use "think" to express certain things I am thinking as a player, but often this _is_ what my character would think. It helps bring it to the fore for both me, and any staff watching me. Do I think for every action? No, but I'll have thinks in every set of behavior. Talking with someone, cooking/crafting, shopping, seeing a new bit of terrain, practicing, and so on. I often find if I'm alone, I can use thinks, rather then says (I am alone), to express something. "Shit, put a few too many holes in that hide."

You might try imagining trying to watch a character all day long, and that player doesn't think, but does some emotes. You see the character do some talking with others at a bar, then they get up because the sun has risen and head out of town. They travel in the same route day after day, where there are "aggressive" enemies, such as halflings or gith. As they move through the route they, kill each enemy in turn, throwing out some combat emotes. Perhaps they loot, perhaps they don't. On they go, finally reaching their destination. They might be wounded, likely tired. They then rest, sell, collect, or whatever it is they came there for. Again a few emotes and no thinks. They then return along the route doing the same. Repeat this every other day, or perhaps every day, and ask yourself, "Who is this? Why do they do what they do? It's obvious the route is littered with danger, yet they constantly openly engage in such? What's the drive? What are they hoping to gain or solve? Will anything change this?" and so on.

You might make some assumptions about that character, but most would be guesses. Without information, we make wrong guesses. The example above can very easily be adapted to people hunting, exploring and so many other scenarios.

It may not be a requirement to use think, but you shouldn't fault a person for developing an opinion of your character based on the limited information you are willing to give out.

[Akaramu]

Without information, we make wrong guesses.

It may not be a requirement to use think, but you shouldn't fault a person for developing an opinion of your character based on the limited information you are willing to give out.

That just made another question come up.

How far back do your think detectors reach? I often dont use think because I have already gone through the entire thought process explaining current actions twice on other occasions when possibly no one was watching. I dont feel like going through the same thing over and over again, so after doing it once or twice, the same actions might become 'quiet' until a new aspect comes up or something changes.

Would anyone know about the two hour solo RP session I had a RL week ago that explained everything currently motivating my character? If no one was watching at the time I went through it?

[Dakurus]

Not unless that specific staff or character saw you then, considered it important enough to note in your info, or you had emailed that specific staff member.

Playing a full fledged persona in a text medium is difficult. We don't type nearly as fast as we could convey emotion, expression, thoughts, and conversations in real life. Everyone here realizes that, and doesn't expect that. But we all like to get glimses of that personailty as much as we can. For some this is lots, others less. Most of these two threads have been an attempt to reinforce that "think" is an incredibly valuable tool, for both the player and the staff.

[X-D]

You know, I have decided that I really don't much like that some staff are throwing around the term powergamer, and for lots of reasons, some having to do with things mentioned in other threads with other topics.

It seems silly to me that some of the karma guilds, which start out rather weak in terms of any type of offense or defense, could be considered as "powergaming" simply because they are trying to get to a point of MAYBE being able to survive if a 1day warrior attacks them.

Seems pretty reasonable to me from an IC perspective. I wonder if them gemmed magickers who have been told by templars to "stay in your temple and practice" are considered powergamers if they do exactly that?

Skillmaxing/powergaming...hhhmmm, My chars often wish to become good or even great at what they do, for whatever reason, wether it be focus or job or love or orders from others. They interact with others, take breaks, eat and whatnot, but sometimes they may spend a couple IC days working on one skill, it worries me somewhat that this perfectly IC action could be seen as bad, with or without using emotes or think command.

Hey, whats that guy doing, oh, he is practicing throw...hhhmm, he did it 20 times in a row without thinking or emoting..TWINK TWINK SKILLMAXING POWERGAMER!!!

When in reality that is exactly how most practice goes, repatition without thought, and yet it is not considered a bad thing IRL when people do it. Maybe check out what the venus sisters or tiger woods or barckly(probly spelled wrong) Barkley admitted to being a horrid basketball player as a child and that he practiced a single shot for 4,5,8 hours a day, every day till he got it right.

I tell you right now, if I'm practicing something IRL it is VERY boring to watch and doing the exact same thing 50 times or more in a row, well, thats how it works, what can I say.

[Cenghiz]

Hmm.. repetitions.. I hate them.. but if you're playing a ranger and came back to your outpost after a day of hunting, you find that with your uber craft skill you have 5 hunks of the same meat.
I cook the first with, let's say, 4 emotes. Then.. I hit the up button for many times to find the craft command again and then proceed finding the emotes from the history and resending them. Why? Eh.. Cooking a small slab of meat can't be descripted in more than one way. I just make sure if someone just has a look at my room understands how I cook. But to tell the truth, I still do feel like a twink when I do this. I wish there was a way to leave all the meat on the grill at once just like IRL.

[Larrath]

If you have a dwarf whose focus is to create the perfect dress, it is completely IC for you to get fifty length of linen and go "craft linen into perfect dress".


But repeating something does not have to mean spamming the command.  You're crafting that dress?  Okay, describe it.  You blew it?  Describe what you did wrong...these can be two emotes.

"emote folds the linen on itself and begins cutting and stitching with ~needle and ~scissors."
"pemote wrist suddenly jerks and ~scissors move forward, ripping the left shoulder of the dress".

In the next emote, you can do
"emote folds the linen on itself and begins stitching and cutting, moving his scissors slowly and carefully."


Have your ldesc set, be willing to have your fingers hurt (or fall off) after so much work, and I will be personally whacking whoever called you a twink.


When crafting, you have a very long delay.  Just adding a few emotes here and there, maybe a say or a mumble, or heaven forbids a think can make it much more interesting for everyone.


You said that your character would do something for two IC days?  Right on.  Did your character rest before or after she did this?  Was this a very taxing action?  As long as you are realistic, this will not be powergaming in my book.

[Kill4Free]

I was the anoynomous kank dude who made this thread (was at a friend comp and forgot it didnt auto log me in)

And to tell the truth, my character was a dwarf, who's focus was becomming an expert ranger, like his father, and his father before him.  I was really pissed off at the staff dude who accused me of "blatantly powergaming) As first of all, my character was a dwarf, second of all, I emoted most of the things I did, and rp'ed with other chars, and did everything a good roleplayer shoudl do.  In his mail, he didnt even say what I was doing wrong, other then everything.
Unfortunaetly I didnt have logs of my char, so I went out and got a new game interface thing, that autologs everything.  I dont mind constructive criticism, I just mind it when he took the opportunity to just plain insult me.  And as if that wasnt enough, he mailed another character, my characters friend, and warned him about playing with "twinkish" companions.  When my chars friend, did about twice the amount of hunting my character himself did.
I know there are loads of helpful staff members out there, and for the most part by far, most of this game's admin is just,  and nice, to be honest.  But this one dude is really gettin me mad :/

[Kill4Free]

As a rule I rest every night while I am hunting, and when I craft, the most I ever did at one time, was 12 items, in a single day, I emoted for about half of them, and that was a one time thing, the rest is just merely a few items a day, then I do something else.

[Larrath]

As far as I am aware, first of all, twelve items in a single day is a lot.
Maybe my post was not clear enough, however.  As people said before me, it is perfectly possible to be a wonderful emoter and an infamous twink.


A good emoter can easily describe exactly how his character escaped getting scratched after the entire building collapsed, or how his soulful hazel eyes, which glint like Jihae through a crystalline tear, suddenly move and find that humming kankfly that was flying around the Gladiator and the Gaj during a performence of Smasher and the Sandstones.


The idea I was trying to convey was that the first item is related to the second.  Dwarves are obsessed, but at least the most of them are not stupid, and I think this fact has to be constantly remembered.  A dwarf whose focus is to destroy House Tenneshi is more likely to infilitrate the House somehow than to show up at the gates with a bone spear and a sling.

The pretty thing about having a dwarven focus is to be able to decide how it comes to play, but I will make this suggestion anyway.  Maybe the world's greatest ranger is a ranger who can drop a tembo in to hits *and* make sure that the tembo population is undisturbed?


I don't know what you were crafting, but most people would get tired.  Sure, a dwarf might not spare the time to even think about that (this is also why dwarves are impossible to torture - they are so wrapped up in their focus that they would barely notice the pain), but after three hours of work, that dwarf's hands are going to start shaking and fumble, or he will become tired or hungry.

Now, here is what I understand from your post:

1) Your character will go on a hunting trip, leave at around dawn/early morning and come back at dusk/late night to rest, and then leave again?
This is a -good- thing, but if you do this seven times a day, it will look like "hunt/regen/hunt/regen/hunt/regen", which is not realistic.
If your character is logged on for five IC days, though, I think taking one day to hunt, then a day to rest and work the goods you're brought, a couple of days to socialize and then going hunting again, though, I don't think anyone will be able to call you a twink.

2) You said that the dozen thing was a one time thing.  Well, the question is "how many things do you craft in an average day of crafting?".  If you are cooking travel cakes and you roleplay making a larger batch and use three sacks of flour at once (craft flour into blah;wait;craft flour into blah), I don't think this is powergaming.  If you are tanning hides, I don't think this is a great crime either, because a lot of the work is the hide sitting in a solution, at which point your hands can rest...
but if you are making weapons, armor, jewels, arrows or whatever (more intensive labor), taking a few minutes to rest between the items could be a good idea.

It is all a matter of how you read the rules, but remember: "I am not powergaming as my character is a dwarf" is never an excuse.  A dwarf will be fanatically dedicated toward something, but they still get tired and hungry and everything else.


The imm who sent you this email, by the way, did not act the way I would hope they would.  I believe that any immortal complaint should be backed with at least a paragraph of explaination, and possibly even a small log or a reference to a particular event.


I am not accusing you of anything, by the way, so if you got that impression, you are just picturing it.  Hopefully this immortal will speak to you soon and everything will be clarified.

[X-D]

Over all, good post Larrath, but I did find this one part rather funny.

but after three hours of work, that dwarf's hands are going to start shaking and fumble, or he will become tired or hungry.

Dude, first, its a -dwarf- the very top end of endurance and pretty high on strength too.

I'm just a normal human and yet I can put in 10-12 hours a day every day of rather back breaking laber(currently a 3 story 3ply+wood shingle tear off on a 8/12 pitch, AND carrying the bundles up etc etc). Do I hurt, sure I do, Do I continue? Yup. And I really don't look anything like a dwarf.

And twelve items is alot?! Heh, when I was building computers I'd normaly put together 40-60 a day, 12 of anything except certain armors or furniture really is not alot IMO.

My point is, what is "realistic" And therefor NOT powergaming is simply an opinion for the most part, even with the staff. Sure, there is an outline or even rules for them to go by when deciding, but it is quite loose and in the end up to the staff member to decide, IE opinion, one might think making 12 arrows in a day is unrealistic knowing how difficult arrows are to make. But another might know that once the skill is learned, experianced fletchers IRL can pump out literally hundreds of arrows in a day.

I could go on and on and on, but simply put, it is opinion and I personaly don't think it should even be brought up or mentioned except in the most EXTREME cases and even then should be kicked up to a highlord or overlord to check up on.

[Larrath]

I normally consider small repeated movements (stitching, for example) to be less dependent on endurance.  Try stitching three full dresses in a row and your fingers will hurt like hell.  Remember in Kill Bill when Beatrix punched the wood so much that she couldn't eat with the chopsticks?
This is what I am referring to, and I'd say that a dwarf could even be more suspectible to that because their fingers are so fat and bulky.

I admit, though, three hours of regular labor would probably not tire a dwarf unless it's very intense.  I'll just say that I was referring to Zalanthan hours, which are almost twice as long as Earth hours.

So there.  And thanks.

[Kill4Free]

Yeah, I dont think my dwarf would get tired easily at all, as he did have exceptional endurance.  And the day I crafted 12 items (bracers) at once, he did ruin about 8 of them, that was why he kept making them, because he didnt want to finish on a bad note.

As for your first point, if I did that every day, the admin would have been quite right about me powergaming.  But I dont, in fact I rarely spend more then 1/3 days hunting, as I get caught up in a bunch of other things.

As for this statement, "I am not powergaming as my character is a dwarf", I dont use that as an excuse at all, you may have noticed that my first few posts didnt even mention that he was a dwarf, as I didnt wanna make people think I was using it as an excuse.  Also, it wasnt like I was crafting solidly, if he got hungry, I went and got some food, if he got thirsty, he went and got a drink.

But I thank you for the help.  As you pointed out a few things I could have gotten into the habbit of doing eventually,

[X-D]

My point Larrath, about the section I quoted was not that you were wrong in any way, yes indeed, you would hurt or be sore, but so what? People, normal human people can and VERY often do go far beyond the point of hurt/sore willingly.


Yup, I've been sewing for 3 hours and have 2 skirts, my fingers are sore, my ass cheek has fallen asleep and my neck hurts, but I want/need 5 skirts and I want them before tomorrow....hhhhmmm, what am I going to do? em grabs more cloth and thread and his scissors.

[EvilRoeSlade]

If in the process of fullfulling your dwarf's focus, you don't make an effort do anything beyond simply increasing his skills as much as possible, then it isn't difficult to see why people will perceive that as powergaming.  That would mean, after all, that you're simply using your dwarf's focus as an excuse to powergame.

[Larrath]

First of all, Kill4Free:

I am very glad that you find my posts helpful.

A dwarf with high endurance is truly not likely to become tired, but I think that fine motorics (sewing, carving, shearing and painting) are less dependent on this stat and more on agility than 'crude' motorics, such as lifting, lumberjacking or foraging.  I still accept the fact that being a dwarf, and one with high endurance no less, the character will be able to do more of a said anything than others...but there is still a limit.

The length of your hunting trips is absolutely alright, and even if you kill everything in sight, I consider this more an IC overhunting issue than an OOC twinking issue.  As long as you play out the injuries and do not sleep for two RL minutes before you wake up and rest in order to unrealistically regen, this is fine.  The question now is the frequency of these hunting trips.  As I said before, if you spend half (or more) of your online time hunting, you are probably overdoing it.  Moderation and pauses are the key, but you really seem to be fine with this, from what you tell me.

I know you were not using that excuse, I was just pointing out a general thing.  Like I said, I am not accusing you of anything at all.


X-D:
So what?  As a dwarf or someone skillful in blocking out pain, you will probably be able to stich a third skirt and go past this limit.  At the fourth skirt, though, you will probably find that your fingers are twitching or stiff, and this will practically prevent you from continuing without resting for a few moments.

ERS:
Well said, and I agree fully.  A good idea, for example, is to have your dwarf contemplate and invent special methods to hunt and fight different creatures.  Sharing these methods with other PCs, as well as playing them out yourself when you hunt alone, will provide good entertainment to everyone involved.  You can even bring superstition into play here.

[Xamminy]

Kill4Free, if you have a serious issue with this staff member, posting on the GDB will serve no purpose but to raise the ire of staff involved.  I suggest bringing your complaing to email, and send one to the mud account.

[naatok]

For what it is worth, here's my brief (for me) two 'sids on Powergaming:

The main point of ArmageddonMud, vs. alot of other muds out there is that nasty word that is brought up all the time here on the GDB:  Roleplay.

A good definition of roleplay is putting your thought into a personality concept you have to the point of temporarily becoming that person.

Perhaps to many in this world that smacks of psychosis.  Well, it is not a secret that many of the best film and stage actors throughout the history of those arts have had emotional issues stemming from their ability to so completely immerse themselves in the character they were performing that it was difficult for them to seperate themselves at times from it.

I'm not suggesting that is what we, as players of ArmageddonMud, should be doing, believe me.  I'm just offering a valid RL example of what roleplay is...and to what extremes it can sometimes go.

When I think of 'roleplay' I think of Marlon Brando, Joan Crawford, Humphrey Bogart and Cate Blanchet.  Oh and let's not forget Viggo Mortensen and his incredible screen portrayal of Aragorn in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy. Because of his acting ability (roleplaying ability), I can never vision anyone else in that role.  To me, Aragorn will forever be embodied and personafied by Viggo.  The dude rocks.

Powergaming, in my not-so humble opinion, is the stale, robotic, person-less direction of a character in the game.  A character who never considers their situation, their actions, their options, their interests, their dislikes by thinking.  A character who goes through the motions in a mechanical way, seldom or never detailing their actions with emotes to add flavor and realism.  A character who performs actions that are not realistic, or in accord with his or her personality or background or experience simply because that is the most expedient (code-wise) way for the character construct to 'get skilled, 'sids or power'.

It is not so much the action as it is the spirit in which it was performed.  Contrary to what I've seen posted here, it is this very spirit of action which the staff uses to weigh a players roleplay.  The idea that one can 'think' through actions is ludicrous.  I don't believe I have ever met a real person who never considered internally what they were doing or what was happening around them...or the possibilities of these and other things in their day to day life.  A 'person' thinks.  A robot or computer merely performs input output based on algorithms.  There is a HUGE difference between the two.  

Perhaps the difference is merely in the complexity of the algorithms within a human brain compared to a machine processor.  But whatever the cause of the difference, there IS a huge difference between people and machines, and anyone who cares to be truthful and ponder it, will see the difference because it is blatant.  In RL AND in Zalanthas.

A naughty monkey's thoughts.

[Kill4Free]

If the issue is lack of roleplaying, I am not sure how I could really do better, other then spend half my time in the bar.  I do go to the bar occasionaly, get a few drinks, talk to people Ive run into.  I talk to other chars, and my dwarf does have his own personality, and he does use his own new methodes to hunt, since he uses bludgeoning weapons, and he has a shield, I pretend that most of the hits are in fact from my shield, as it doesnt say that my hammer did the hit.  I emote that out as well.  Quite often when my dwarf really starts to enjoy a fight, he lowers his head and charges, intent on delivering a vicious headbutt and I emote that out, use bash to simulate it (of course I always fail since I have no bash skill), and the fact that I never succeed does show that my dwarf isnt intent on solely increasing his skills.  I do roleplay, I wont pretend I am some uber emote/roleplay guy, but I do emote, and I do put thought into them, as I do my best to make sure they are all different.  I roleplay my char the way I view dwarves, they are extremely tough, a bit slow at comming up with new ideas, they dont look down on other races, like humans (look down on, lol) and they treat most people with respect. I also believe they rarely get angry, as they do have a lot of patience, and dont have much of a sense of humor.

[Kill4Free]

And Xamminy, I sent an in game mail to the staff member in question, and he responded with an email saying the message was blank, so I emailed him back and there wasnt a response so far.
I am quite honestly trying to figure out what I did wrong, if you wish to look over my logs (I have the last 9 hours of playing logged to a file) I can email it to you, so you could look it over and point out things I could improve upon.

[Krath]

Kill4Free, if you have a serious issue with this staff member, posting on the GDB will serve no purpose but to raise the ire of staff involved.  I suggest bringing your complaing to email, and send one to the mud account.

Xamminy, I do not think K4F was directing his post towards the imm or him being upset with
an imm, but to explain the reasoning behind his post and why it was intentionally started. I
did not take it so much as him trying to prove a point to the IMM or get his/her attention by posting
on the GDB, but to make sure everyone had a clear understanding as to why he did start the thread
and what he hoped to learn from it.

[Kill4Free]

Thx Krath, you explained my intentions better then I did, lol.

So basically from what I can see, the definition of powergaming is not roleplaying to a high extent?
In that case, even if you didnt really raise your skills at all, just wandered around aimlessly, then you would be powergaming.
I thought powergaming was "doing unrealistic things to improve your characters skill".

[Anonymous]

Powergaming for me is when the more powerful, successful, stronger, THING is chosen, selected, done over what the PC's would actually do. This often stems from OOC knowledge weighing in too heavily. Define your character's personality, balance it roughly with what is physically/mentally possible for your race, and it's pretty unlikely that you'll fall into the trap of powergaming.

[Krath]

Powergaming for me is when the more powerful, successful, stronger, THING is chosen, selected, done over what the PC's would actually do. This often stems from OOC knowledge weighing in too heavily. Define your character's personality, balance it roughly with what is physically/mentally possible for your race, and it's pretty unlikely that you'll fall into the trap of powergaming.

Agreed. It has been some time since I have looked through the DOCs and help files for my own
personal knowledge, but it would be nice if like when a new player starts an account they would
receive VIA email, a Newbie starter's guide. I know they have the DOCs they are suppose to
read upon character creation, but I think a lot of people overlook them. If perhaps a package was
sent to the new player with Both the History of Each of the Starting points, not just the known world, as
well as a strict definition of what is considered RP, Powergaming(twinking), and such.  I think
it would work and possibly answer a lot of the newbies questions. Examples of of each of the
things you are suppose to do, and things you are not suppose to do would be nice for them as well I
think.  What do you all think, Newer players, Old players, and IMMS?

[Kill4Free]

Bah, the admin still didnt email me back, was waiting for 2 days, emailed both his accounts.  Im really starting to get irritated over this :/

[Delirium]

Posting on the forums and dragging it out in public isn't going to help anything, and two days isn't a very long time to wait for a reply on something of that nature.

[Kill4Free]

Actually it was three.  And posting it on the public boards wont help me at all, I didnt expect it to, I was just sayin.

[Xamminy]

Okay, this is just dragging out and is accomplishing nothing.  I'm locking the thread.  If anyone has something the truly think needs to be added, send me a PM.