Definition of powergaming

[Xamminy]

As you sit in front of the computer, and think about what your character would do, you are going into your character...why not let us see into your character as well so that we know you're not a twinky powergamer?

AK, I'd suggest you understand that your character will suffer the consequences of his/her actions.  Nothing was twinky in that situation.  You simply don't have the information necessary to see that...IG information that you aren't going to get by bitching and moaning on the GDB.  I'm sorry if you feel slighted, but unfortunately, your character did what he did and suffered the consequences.  I hope you're having fun on your new character.

[Dakurus]

Thinks and emotes help flesh out your characters personality and motivations, in the former case for the staff, and in the latter, both the staff and the other players. Although we might be lucky enough to see you interact with another character and say things, roles where there is less interaction, such as players who are in the wilderness away from other people constantly, we're often left clueless to who your character is as a person.

I'm an old time armer, and think was implemented long after I started playing here. I admit having difficulty with it at first, but after repeatedly forcing myself to do it, I find it an invaluable tool. I realize that sometimes I use "think" to express certain things I am thinking as a player, but often this _is_ what my character would think. It helps bring it to the fore for both me, and any staff watching me. Do I think for every action? No, but I'll have thinks in every set of behavior. Talking with someone, cooking/crafting, shopping, seeing a new bit of terrain, practicing, and so on. I often find if I'm alone, I can use thinks, rather then says (I am alone), to express something. "Shit, put a few too many holes in that hide."

You might try imagining trying to watch a character all day long, and that player doesn't think, but does some emotes. You see the character do some talking with others at a bar, then they get up because the sun has risen and head out of town. They travel in the same route day after day, where there are "aggressive" enemies, such as halflings or gith. As they move through the route they, kill each enemy in turn, throwing out some combat emotes. Perhaps they loot, perhaps they don't. On they go, finally reaching their destination. They might be wounded, likely tired. They then rest, sell, collect, or whatever it is they came there for. Again a few emotes and no thinks. They then return along the route doing the same. Repeat this every other day, or perhaps every day, and ask yourself, "Who is this? Why do they do what they do? It's obvious the route is littered with danger, yet they constantly openly engage in such? What's the drive? What are they hoping to gain or solve? Will anything change this?" and so on.

You might make some assumptions about that character, but most would be guesses. Without information, we make wrong guesses. The example above can very easily be adapted to people hunting, exploring and so many other scenarios.

It may not be a requirement to use think, but you shouldn't fault a person for developing an opinion of your character based on the limited information you are willing to give out.

[Akaramu]

Without information, we make wrong guesses.

It may not be a requirement to use think, but you shouldn't fault a person for developing an opinion of your character based on the limited information you are willing to give out.

That just made another question come up.

How far back do your think detectors reach? I often dont use think because I have already gone through the entire thought process explaining current actions twice on other occasions when possibly no one was watching. I dont feel like going through the same thing over and over again, so after doing it once or twice, the same actions might become 'quiet' until a new aspect comes up or something changes.

Would anyone know about the two hour solo RP session I had a RL week ago that explained everything currently motivating my character? If no one was watching at the time I went through it?

[Dakurus]

Not unless that specific staff or character saw you then, considered it important enough to note in your info, or you had emailed that specific staff member.

Playing a full fledged persona in a text medium is difficult. We don't type nearly as fast as we could convey emotion, expression, thoughts, and conversations in real life. Everyone here realizes that, and doesn't expect that. But we all like to get glimses of that personailty as much as we can. For some this is lots, others less. Most of these two threads have been an attempt to reinforce that "think" is an incredibly valuable tool, for both the player and the staff.

[X-D]

You know, I have decided that I really don't much like that some staff are throwing around the term powergamer, and for lots of reasons, some having to do with things mentioned in other threads with other topics.

It seems silly to me that some of the karma guilds, which start out rather weak in terms of any type of offense or defense, could be considered as "powergaming" simply because they are trying to get to a point of MAYBE being able to survive if a 1day warrior attacks them.

Seems pretty reasonable to me from an IC perspective. I wonder if them gemmed magickers who have been told by templars to "stay in your temple and practice" are considered powergamers if they do exactly that?

Skillmaxing/powergaming...hhhmmm, My chars often wish to become good or even great at what they do, for whatever reason, wether it be focus or job or love or orders from others. They interact with others, take breaks, eat and whatnot, but sometimes they may spend a couple IC days working on one skill, it worries me somewhat that this perfectly IC action could be seen as bad, with or without using emotes or think command.

Hey, whats that guy doing, oh, he is practicing throw...hhhmm, he did it 20 times in a row without thinking or emoting..TWINK TWINK SKILLMAXING POWERGAMER!!!

When in reality that is exactly how most practice goes, repatition without thought, and yet it is not considered a bad thing IRL when people do it. Maybe check out what the venus sisters or tiger woods or barckly(probly spelled wrong) Barkley admitted to being a horrid basketball player as a child and that he practiced a single shot for 4,5,8 hours a day, every day till he got it right.

I tell you right now, if I'm practicing something IRL it is VERY boring to watch and doing the exact same thing 50 times or more in a row, well, thats how it works, what can I say.

[Cenghiz]

Hmm.. repetitions.. I hate them.. but if you're playing a ranger and came back to your outpost after a day of hunting, you find that with your uber craft skill you have 5 hunks of the same meat.
I cook the first with, let's say, 4 emotes. Then.. I hit the up button for many times to find the craft command again and then proceed finding the emotes from the history and resending them. Why? Eh.. Cooking a small slab of meat can't be descripted in more than one way. I just make sure if someone just has a look at my room understands how I cook. But to tell the truth, I still do feel like a twink when I do this. I wish there was a way to leave all the meat on the grill at once just like IRL.

[Larrath]

If you have a dwarf whose focus is to create the perfect dress, it is completely IC for you to get fifty length of linen and go "craft linen into perfect dress".


But repeating something does not have to mean spamming the command.  You're crafting that dress?  Okay, describe it.  You blew it?  Describe what you did wrong...these can be two emotes.

"emote folds the linen on itself and begins cutting and stitching with ~needle and ~scissors."
"pemote wrist suddenly jerks and ~scissors move forward, ripping the left shoulder of the dress".

In the next emote, you can do
"emote folds the linen on itself and begins stitching and cutting, moving his scissors slowly and carefully."


Have your ldesc set, be willing to have your fingers hurt (or fall off) after so much work, and I will be personally whacking whoever called you a twink.


When crafting, you have a very long delay.  Just adding a few emotes here and there, maybe a say or a mumble, or heaven forbids a think can make it much more interesting for everyone.


You said that your character would do something for two IC days?  Right on.  Did your character rest before or after she did this?  Was this a very taxing action?  As long as you are realistic, this will not be powergaming in my book.

[Kill4Free]

I was the anoynomous kank dude who made this thread (was at a friend comp and forgot it didnt auto log me in)

And to tell the truth, my character was a dwarf, who's focus was becomming an expert ranger, like his father, and his father before him.  I was really pissed off at the staff dude who accused me of "blatantly powergaming) As first of all, my character was a dwarf, second of all, I emoted most of the things I did, and rp'ed with other chars, and did everything a good roleplayer shoudl do.  In his mail, he didnt even say what I was doing wrong, other then everything.
Unfortunaetly I didnt have logs of my char, so I went out and got a new game interface thing, that autologs everything.  I dont mind constructive criticism, I just mind it when he took the opportunity to just plain insult me.  And as if that wasnt enough, he mailed another character, my characters friend, and warned him about playing with "twinkish" companions.  When my chars friend, did about twice the amount of hunting my character himself did.
I know there are loads of helpful staff members out there, and for the most part by far, most of this game's admin is just,  and nice, to be honest.  But this one dude is really gettin me mad :/

[Kill4Free]

As a rule I rest every night while I am hunting, and when I craft, the most I ever did at one time, was 12 items, in a single day, I emoted for about half of them, and that was a one time thing, the rest is just merely a few items a day, then I do something else.

[Larrath]

As far as I am aware, first of all, twelve items in a single day is a lot.
Maybe my post was not clear enough, however.  As people said before me, it is perfectly possible to be a wonderful emoter and an infamous twink.


A good emoter can easily describe exactly how his character escaped getting scratched after the entire building collapsed, or how his soulful hazel eyes, which glint like Jihae through a crystalline tear, suddenly move and find that humming kankfly that was flying around the Gladiator and the Gaj during a performence of Smasher and the Sandstones.


The idea I was trying to convey was that the first item is related to the second.  Dwarves are obsessed, but at least the most of them are not stupid, and I think this fact has to be constantly remembered.  A dwarf whose focus is to destroy House Tenneshi is more likely to infilitrate the House somehow than to show up at the gates with a bone spear and a sling.

The pretty thing about having a dwarven focus is to be able to decide how it comes to play, but I will make this suggestion anyway.  Maybe the world's greatest ranger is a ranger who can drop a tembo in to hits *and* make sure that the tembo population is undisturbed?


I don't know what you were crafting, but most people would get tired.  Sure, a dwarf might not spare the time to even think about that (this is also why dwarves are impossible to torture - they are so wrapped up in their focus that they would barely notice the pain), but after three hours of work, that dwarf's hands are going to start shaking and fumble, or he will become tired or hungry.

Now, here is what I understand from your post:

1) Your character will go on a hunting trip, leave at around dawn/early morning and come back at dusk/late night to rest, and then leave again?
This is a -good- thing, but if you do this seven times a day, it will look like "hunt/regen/hunt/regen/hunt/regen", which is not realistic.
If your character is logged on for five IC days, though, I think taking one day to hunt, then a day to rest and work the goods you're brought, a couple of days to socialize and then going hunting again, though, I don't think anyone will be able to call you a twink.

2) You said that the dozen thing was a one time thing.  Well, the question is "how many things do you craft in an average day of crafting?".  If you are cooking travel cakes and you roleplay making a larger batch and use three sacks of flour at once (craft flour into blah;wait;craft flour into blah), I don't think this is powergaming.  If you are tanning hides, I don't think this is a great crime either, because a lot of the work is the hide sitting in a solution, at which point your hands can rest...
but if you are making weapons, armor, jewels, arrows or whatever (more intensive labor), taking a few minutes to rest between the items could be a good idea.

It is all a matter of how you read the rules, but remember: "I am not powergaming as my character is a dwarf" is never an excuse.  A dwarf will be fanatically dedicated toward something, but they still get tired and hungry and everything else.


The imm who sent you this email, by the way, did not act the way I would hope they would.  I believe that any immortal complaint should be backed with at least a paragraph of explaination, and possibly even a small log or a reference to a particular event.


I am not accusing you of anything, by the way, so if you got that impression, you are just picturing it.  Hopefully this immortal will speak to you soon and everything will be clarified.

[X-D]

Over all, good post Larrath, but I did find this one part rather funny.

but after three hours of work, that dwarf's hands are going to start shaking and fumble, or he will become tired or hungry.

Dude, first, its a -dwarf- the very top end of endurance and pretty high on strength too.

I'm just a normal human and yet I can put in 10-12 hours a day every day of rather back breaking laber(currently a 3 story 3ply+wood shingle tear off on a 8/12 pitch, AND carrying the bundles up etc etc). Do I hurt, sure I do, Do I continue? Yup. And I really don't look anything like a dwarf.

And twelve items is alot?! Heh, when I was building computers I'd normaly put together 40-60 a day, 12 of anything except certain armors or furniture really is not alot IMO.

My point is, what is "realistic" And therefor NOT powergaming is simply an opinion for the most part, even with the staff. Sure, there is an outline or even rules for them to go by when deciding, but it is quite loose and in the end up to the staff member to decide, IE opinion, one might think making 12 arrows in a day is unrealistic knowing how difficult arrows are to make. But another might know that once the skill is learned, experianced fletchers IRL can pump out literally hundreds of arrows in a day.

I could go on and on and on, but simply put, it is opinion and I personaly don't think it should even be brought up or mentioned except in the most EXTREME cases and even then should be kicked up to a highlord or overlord to check up on.

[Larrath]

I normally consider small repeated movements (stitching, for example) to be less dependent on endurance.  Try stitching three full dresses in a row and your fingers will hurt like hell.  Remember in Kill Bill when Beatrix punched the wood so much that she couldn't eat with the chopsticks?
This is what I am referring to, and I'd say that a dwarf could even be more suspectible to that because their fingers are so fat and bulky.

I admit, though, three hours of regular labor would probably not tire a dwarf unless it's very intense.  I'll just say that I was referring to Zalanthan hours, which are almost twice as long as Earth hours.

So there.  And thanks.

[Kill4Free]

Yeah, I dont think my dwarf would get tired easily at all, as he did have exceptional endurance.  And the day I crafted 12 items (bracers) at once, he did ruin about 8 of them, that was why he kept making them, because he didnt want to finish on a bad note.

As for your first point, if I did that every day, the admin would have been quite right about me powergaming.  But I dont, in fact I rarely spend more then 1/3 days hunting, as I get caught up in a bunch of other things.

As for this statement, "I am not powergaming as my character is a dwarf", I dont use that as an excuse at all, you may have noticed that my first few posts didnt even mention that he was a dwarf, as I didnt wanna make people think I was using it as an excuse.  Also, it wasnt like I was crafting solidly, if he got hungry, I went and got some food, if he got thirsty, he went and got a drink.

But I thank you for the help.  As you pointed out a few things I could have gotten into the habbit of doing eventually,

[X-D]

My point Larrath, about the section I quoted was not that you were wrong in any way, yes indeed, you would hurt or be sore, but so what? People, normal human people can and VERY often do go far beyond the point of hurt/sore willingly.


Yup, I've been sewing for 3 hours and have 2 skirts, my fingers are sore, my ass cheek has fallen asleep and my neck hurts, but I want/need 5 skirts and I want them before tomorrow....hhhhmmm, what am I going to do? em grabs more cloth and thread and his scissors.

[EvilRoeSlade]

If in the process of fullfulling your dwarf's focus, you don't make an effort do anything beyond simply increasing his skills as much as possible, then it isn't difficult to see why people will perceive that as powergaming.  That would mean, after all, that you're simply using your dwarf's focus as an excuse to powergame.

[Larrath]

First of all, Kill4Free:

I am very glad that you find my posts helpful.

A dwarf with high endurance is truly not likely to become tired, but I think that fine motorics (sewing, carving, shearing and painting) are less dependent on this stat and more on agility than 'crude' motorics, such as lifting, lumberjacking or foraging.  I still accept the fact that being a dwarf, and one with high endurance no less, the character will be able to do more of a said anything than others...but there is still a limit.

The length of your hunting trips is absolutely alright, and even if you kill everything in sight, I consider this more an IC overhunting issue than an OOC twinking issue.  As long as you play out the injuries and do not sleep for two RL minutes before you wake up and rest in order to unrealistically regen, this is fine.  The question now is the frequency of these hunting trips.  As I said before, if you spend half (or more) of your online time hunting, you are probably overdoing it.  Moderation and pauses are the key, but you really seem to be fine with this, from what you tell me.

I know you were not using that excuse, I was just pointing out a general thing.  Like I said, I am not accusing you of anything at all.


X-D:
So what?  As a dwarf or someone skillful in blocking out pain, you will probably be able to stich a third skirt and go past this limit.  At the fourth skirt, though, you will probably find that your fingers are twitching or stiff, and this will practically prevent you from continuing without resting for a few moments.

ERS:
Well said, and I agree fully.  A good idea, for example, is to have your dwarf contemplate and invent special methods to hunt and fight different creatures.  Sharing these methods with other PCs, as well as playing them out yourself when you hunt alone, will provide good entertainment to everyone involved.  You can even bring superstition into play here.

[Xamminy]

Kill4Free, if you have a serious issue with this staff member, posting on the GDB will serve no purpose but to raise the ire of staff involved.  I suggest bringing your complaing to email, and send one to the mud account.

[naatok]

For what it is worth, here's my brief (for me) two 'sids on Powergaming:

The main point of ArmageddonMud, vs. alot of other muds out there is that nasty word that is brought up all the time here on the GDB:  Roleplay.

A good definition of roleplay is putting your thought into a personality concept you have to the point of temporarily becoming that person.

Perhaps to many in this world that smacks of psychosis.  Well, it is not a secret that many of the best film and stage actors throughout the history of those arts have had emotional issues stemming from their ability to so completely immerse themselves in the character they were performing that it was difficult for them to seperate themselves at times from it.

I'm not suggesting that is what we, as players of ArmageddonMud, should be doing, believe me.  I'm just offering a valid RL example of what roleplay is...and to what extremes it can sometimes go.

When I think of 'roleplay' I think of Marlon Brando, Joan Crawford, Humphrey Bogart and Cate Blanchet.  Oh and let's not forget Viggo Mortensen and his incredible screen portrayal of Aragorn in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy. Because of his acting ability (roleplaying ability), I can never vision anyone else in that role.  To me, Aragorn will forever be embodied and personafied by Viggo.  The dude rocks.

Powergaming, in my not-so humble opinion, is the stale, robotic, person-less direction of a character in the game.  A character who never considers their situation, their actions, their options, their interests, their dislikes by thinking.  A character who goes through the motions in a mechanical way, seldom or never detailing their actions with emotes to add flavor and realism.  A character who performs actions that are not realistic, or in accord with his or her personality or background or experience simply because that is the most expedient (code-wise) way for the character construct to 'get skilled, 'sids or power'.

It is not so much the action as it is the spirit in which it was performed.  Contrary to what I've seen posted here, it is this very spirit of action which the staff uses to weigh a players roleplay.  The idea that one can 'think' through actions is ludicrous.  I don't believe I have ever met a real person who never considered internally what they were doing or what was happening around them...or the possibilities of these and other things in their day to day life.  A 'person' thinks.  A robot or computer merely performs input output based on algorithms.  There is a HUGE difference between the two.  

Perhaps the difference is merely in the complexity of the algorithms within a human brain compared to a machine processor.  But whatever the cause of the difference, there IS a huge difference between people and machines, and anyone who cares to be truthful and ponder it, will see the difference because it is blatant.  In RL AND in Zalanthas.

A naughty monkey's thoughts.

[Kill4Free]

If the issue is lack of roleplaying, I am not sure how I could really do better, other then spend half my time in the bar.  I do go to the bar occasionaly, get a few drinks, talk to people Ive run into.  I talk to other chars, and my dwarf does have his own personality, and he does use his own new methodes to hunt, since he uses bludgeoning weapons, and he has a shield, I pretend that most of the hits are in fact from my shield, as it doesnt say that my hammer did the hit.  I emote that out as well.  Quite often when my dwarf really starts to enjoy a fight, he lowers his head and charges, intent on delivering a vicious headbutt and I emote that out, use bash to simulate it (of course I always fail since I have no bash skill), and the fact that I never succeed does show that my dwarf isnt intent on solely increasing his skills.  I do roleplay, I wont pretend I am some uber emote/roleplay guy, but I do emote, and I do put thought into them, as I do my best to make sure they are all different.  I roleplay my char the way I view dwarves, they are extremely tough, a bit slow at comming up with new ideas, they dont look down on other races, like humans (look down on, lol) and they treat most people with respect. I also believe they rarely get angry, as they do have a lot of patience, and dont have much of a sense of humor.

[Kill4Free]

And Xamminy, I sent an in game mail to the staff member in question, and he responded with an email saying the message was blank, so I emailed him back and there wasnt a response so far.
I am quite honestly trying to figure out what I did wrong, if you wish to look over my logs (I have the last 9 hours of playing logged to a file) I can email it to you, so you could look it over and point out things I could improve upon.

[Krath]

Kill4Free, if you have a serious issue with this staff member, posting on the GDB will serve no purpose but to raise the ire of staff involved.  I suggest bringing your complaing to email, and send one to the mud account.

Xamminy, I do not think K4F was directing his post towards the imm or him being upset with
an imm, but to explain the reasoning behind his post and why it was intentionally started. I
did not take it so much as him trying to prove a point to the IMM or get his/her attention by posting
on the GDB, but to make sure everyone had a clear understanding as to why he did start the thread
and what he hoped to learn from it.

[Kill4Free]

Thx Krath, you explained my intentions better then I did, lol.

So basically from what I can see, the definition of powergaming is not roleplaying to a high extent?
In that case, even if you didnt really raise your skills at all, just wandered around aimlessly, then you would be powergaming.
I thought powergaming was "doing unrealistic things to improve your characters skill".

[Anonymous]

Powergaming for me is when the more powerful, successful, stronger, THING is chosen, selected, done over what the PC's would actually do. This often stems from OOC knowledge weighing in too heavily. Define your character's personality, balance it roughly with what is physically/mentally possible for your race, and it's pretty unlikely that you'll fall into the trap of powergaming.

[Krath]

Powergaming for me is when the more powerful, successful, stronger, THING is chosen, selected, done over what the PC's would actually do. This often stems from OOC knowledge weighing in too heavily. Define your character's personality, balance it roughly with what is physically/mentally possible for your race, and it's pretty unlikely that you'll fall into the trap of powergaming.

Agreed. It has been some time since I have looked through the DOCs and help files for my own
personal knowledge, but it would be nice if like when a new player starts an account they would
receive VIA email, a Newbie starter's guide. I know they have the DOCs they are suppose to
read upon character creation, but I think a lot of people overlook them. If perhaps a package was
sent to the new player with Both the History of Each of the Starting points, not just the known world, as
well as a strict definition of what is considered RP, Powergaming(twinking), and such.  I think
it would work and possibly answer a lot of the newbies questions. Examples of of each of the
things you are suppose to do, and things you are not suppose to do would be nice for them as well I
think.  What do you all think, Newer players, Old players, and IMMS?

[Kill4Free]

Bah, the admin still didnt email me back, was waiting for 2 days, emailed both his accounts.  Im really starting to get irritated over this :/