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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Synthesis on June 19, 2019, 10:08:49 PM »
It seems jarring to me that if it somehow was released that cutlery (spoons, forks, butter knives) could be used as weapons, but severely reduced your offense in the process as a trade off you would see a huge schism among players. You would see the total badasses stabbing lizards and rinthis to death with a clay spoon and then those PCs who would condemn them for that sort of immersion breaking activity while actually doing the same thing in private. Finally, you would see a tiny little group who stick to their values (and the socializer players) getting their asses handed to them because they're SOO so far behind the curve. I have a feeling the groups would be about equal in size, save for that final one.

You can already do this with trash weapons.  Lower damage-per-hit means more swings-per-fight, and more swings-per-fight (assuming a dodge rate of greater than 0%) means more dodges per fight.  If you don't care about training style, ep only.
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by gotdamnmiracle on June 19, 2019, 09:16:23 PM »
It seems jarring to me that if it somehow was released that cutlery (spoons, forks, butter knives) could be used as weapons, but severely reduced your offense in the process as a trade off you would see a huge schism among players. You would see the total badasses stabbing lizards and rinthis to death with a clay spoon and then those PCs who would condemn them for that sort of immersion breaking activity while actually doing the same thing in private. Finally, you would see a tiny little group who stick to their values (and the socializer players) getting their asses handed to them because they're SOO so far behind the curve. I have a feeling the groups would be about equal in size, save for that final one.
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Roleplaying Discussion / Re: How to create indie RP/plots
« Last post by BOXCARS on June 19, 2019, 08:37:09 PM »
Karma is all good and well but longevity is only one point for the criteria. That being said, karma isn't all its cracked out to be. You'll ultimately get more fun out of /being/ interesting and complex and finding your own way forward than paying good-boy points for a complex and interesting role. Wherever you go, there you are, being a magick user, half-giant, desert elf or noble won't change that.

The reality of sacrifice is that it only means something if it meant something to you and those you did it for. Its better to go down and see your friends go on without you for the satisfaction it gives you than for the hope of a reward. Going down in a noble last stand, if that's what you would or need to do, is the stuff of stories. Maybe you'll be dead but your character will live on in the stories and memories of other characters and that's worth more than any item, sid or karma.

There's plenty of reasons to clash with other players, and taking into evaluation your personal history, race, and place of origin is a good start. Failing that, poking into other's business is a good way to make plots. Information is THE highest commodity in this game, its the more useful than any skill and true and useful information is rarer. I feel immense pleasure when I learn what it is that's actually going on, who's working for who, what the history of groups and individuals are. Because of the one year rule and the general function and culture of the game information trumps everything else. So stick your nose where it doesn't belong. Personally do so, bribe and find informants, ask bad questions in the wrong or right place. Get your face out there.

Lastly getting involved in a group is the best way to find yourself in plots but not the only way to do so. Change revolves around force of personality as much as action. You'll find more people getting involved in your schemes when you make yourself someone to be remembered (subtly or loudly). Do things for other people, get involved in THEIR plots, make friends.
There's a lot of ways to make a good plot, but w;w;w;n;e;e; get loot;k scrab isn't the way to do so.
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Synthesis on June 19, 2019, 08:14:29 PM »
Mainly the reason I want to make master "attainable" is so that you don't have unstoppable PCs who used the "one crazy trick you wouldn't believe- staffers hate him!" And now even though you have the strength of an entire clan behind you it's unfeasible to attack (or even cross them) because they are willing to twink and you aren't. ....
... however there are PCs that can become some powerful that nothing you can throw at them will reasonably kill them.

If a single PC fights off and kills an entire clan of other PCs (whether it was through twinking or not) is that realistic?
Is it fun?
Is it a good portrayal of murder, corruption, and betrayal?
Is it within the realm of fair we are shooting for?

I'd say no to most of those. Maybe it's fun for the meta-PC. But when five clannies can't figure out how to take down one mundane unaffiliated there's a problem, twinking or no.


If it doesn't rest in how strong it one pc is it exists in how much sparring-mudsexing-sparring a clan must do to confidently catch up.


This is a different conversation that I don't think has been brought up much in this thread.  It kinda answers my questions of "Why am I trying to become powerful?"  Is it, "I'm trying because there are other characters who are powerful, more powerful than I, and I want to be competitive in combat and have a chance at defeating them?"

The skill progression really is about - trying to be better than than trying to kill x mobs.

Is that right?   Player vs Player conflict?

It depends on what your gamer type is, generally.

An achiever might want to get to mastery simply because mastery is technically possible.  Or yes, they may simply want to be able to "beat" anyone else.

An explorer might want to get to mastery because mastery = better defense, and better defense means you can explore without dying.

A socializer might want to get to mastery because being good means being useful, and being useful means being more able to get involved with other players.

Beyond that...there's the matter of the class system, where Enforcer trades off utility for being better at fighting than Infiltrators, and Infiltrators trade off utility for being tougher than Miscreants.  However, the trade-off is fundamentally useless if everyone plateaus at jman.  What's the point of being technically able to master piercing weapons and dual wield, when realistically your piercing weapons and dual wield skills will never even reach a Miscreant cap?  What's the point of rolling an Enforcer with master backstab when realistically, you will never branch backstab?

I mean, fighter vs. soldier, you give up on the possibility of literally hundreds of thousands of 'sids in lifetime crafting skills: fletchery, knives, swords, spears, clubs, and axes.  Realistically, you'll never be better than a soldier (or probably even a laborer) at anything except parry, shield use, kick, disarm, and bash--which admittedly are useful, but the difference isn't -that- great unless you're getting into some weird solo PvP situations or PvE'ing ubergith or mantises.

Or raiders vs. their lower-tier classes.  You're giving up WILDERNESS QUIT and food forage for the vague promise of being better at combat, and hey, as a raider, you're "outdoorsy," so you have the excuse to go out and critter grind, so you can do that...but oh by the way, you're forced to burn a subguild for the lowly skinning skill, so you don't look like a chode out there spamkilling big game without even a fig-leaf to cover the skillgains.

So...the jman plateau is a slap in the face to basic game design, and it's even contradictory to the game's own internal class design.
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Miradus on June 19, 2019, 08:12:17 PM »

Yeah, ignore what I said and just go with what Namino said. It's more coherent.

I feel like a lot of this would be solved if we, the players, knew some numbers ...

How many enforcers have branched backstab/sap? How many soldiers branched riposte/hack?

Or since the guild change, what has been the breakdown of combat-types who hit advanced and master?
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Roleplaying Discussion / Re: How to create indie RP/plots
« Last post by Miradus on June 19, 2019, 08:08:40 PM »
The buddy-buddy mindset makes sense when it makes sense.

If there's only one other dude who plays in my timeframe in a specific area where I'm playing, and I have a desire for some social game ... then like hell I'm going to kill that guy. I've done that and learned a painful lesson from it. You kill someone off and then end up storing because you're bored to death.

There's people I've been an antagonist towards and I had them in a situation where I could kill them, but I let them go to plot against me. To do that, however, means you've got to have a measure of trust for your other players. Which ... sad to say ... I no longer hand out indiscriminately. I've found that most players, faced with an antagonist, are going to jump to the biggest and surest way of winning the very next chance they get to preserve themselves.

And I am not sure I blame them anymore. I would find it a boring way to play, but I see it now. You give people too much of a chance in this game, you're going to find yourself looking at a mantishead and thinking, "Well that was unfulfilling."

You aren't rewarded in any way for sacrificing your character for the sake of a good story. You are rewarded instead for 'longevity'. No matter how bullshit your methods of maintaining that longevity have been. You won't earn karma for bravely holding that line against the raiders/gith/scrab with a grainy stone and going down in glory while your comrades made it to safety. Instead you earn a wait for approval and the joy of having to go find a new group of people to play with. You might get some kudos, maybe, but those are a small comfort when a few weeks later you're reading on the rumor board about some awesome adventure your old buddies had that you'd have been able to participate in had you not done the right thing and roleplayed out the victim-side of a betrayal, even though you OOC knew better. Or you see some upcoming event posted and think, "Gah, my last character would have been perfect for that. But this one is struggling to just get some new pants."

With all those factors, you're going to see more of the bullshit behavior and less of the narratively-focused players.
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Namino on June 19, 2019, 07:59:56 PM »
Attempting to define why people want to achieve 100% mastery of their skill is immaterial in my opinion. The fact that people wish to do this is an inherent facet of humanity. People climb mountains because they're there, lift heavy ass weight too see what they can do, learn to solve rubix cubes as fast as possible, and so on and so on. The desire to push to the limits of the possible is absolutely inherent in the human psyche and that extends into the video games we play. People collecting all the optional stars in Mario games, going for S rank clears in Devil May Cry, or the insane Darksouls no hit speedrunners. People have an inherent desire to redline the engine of efficiency -- just to see what they can do.

This has been a very obvious aspect of games for a long time. Entire books of game design have been written on how to properly scale the challenge of your game with the skill progression of your players/their avatars in order to reward their efforts and encourage them to continue redlining what the game is capable of.

Armageddon has horribly failed to capture that basic tenet of game design and in many ways, has demonstrated an administrative policy of outright rejecting it -- rejecting a core component of what makes games fun. The fact that for the past year there has been constant discussion in dozens of different threads on this exact same issue should send a loud message that the game is failing to address the needs of its playerbase. An entire quartile of Bartles Taxonomy is dedicated to Achievers -- the mountain climbers -- for heavens sake. Why is it so difficult to understand that actively denying those basic components of gameplay widely acknowledge in the industry to support those players will leave them unhappy and drive them away?
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Miradus on June 19, 2019, 07:43:23 PM »
To speak to GDM's point (I think) ...

If that meta-PC is one of a precious few who value story and narrative over "winning" then you're going to get some fun if they declare war on you/your clan.

But current game mechanics tend to lean into the powergamer becoming that meta-pc rather than the ones who value the character arc and narrative.

It's not a matter of karma. Some of the scariest hijinks I've been involved in I initiated with no-karma combos.

I want to be the best when I do something. If I roll out of chargen with some wretched horror then I wanted to be the wretchediest. If I roll out with someone weak but devious, I want to be the most devious. If I roll out with someone whose main thing is combat, then I want to be as good as I can reasonably get at combat. I don't particularly want to be the guy in the group everyone knows they have to rescue, unless I planned to be that way from the start.
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by mansa on June 19, 2019, 07:38:57 PM »
Mainly the reason I want to make master "attainable" is so that you don't have unstoppable PCs who used the "one crazy trick you wouldn't believe- staffers hate him!" And now even though you have the strength of an entire clan behind you it's unfeasible to attack (or even cross them) because they are willing to twink and you aren't. ....
... however there are PCs that can become some powerful that nothing you can throw at them will reasonably kill them.

If a single PC fights off and kills an entire clan of other PCs (whether it was through twinking or not) is that realistic?
Is it fun?
Is it a good portrayal of murder, corruption, and betrayal?
Is it within the realm of fair we are shooting for?

I'd say no to most of those. Maybe it's fun for the meta-PC. But when five clannies can't figure out how to take down one mundane unaffiliated there's a problem, twinking or no.


If it doesn't rest in how strong it one pc is it exists in how much sparring-mudsexing-sparring a clan must do to confidently catch up.


This is a different conversation that I don't think has been brought up much in this thread.  It kinda answers my questions of "Why am I trying to become powerful?"  Is it, "I'm trying because there are other characters who are powerful, more powerful than I, and I want to be competitive in combat and have a chance at defeating them?"

The skill progression really is about - trying to be better than than trying to kill x mobs.

Is that right?   Player vs Player conflict?
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by oggotale on June 19, 2019, 05:43:37 PM »
How hard is a poison backstab thoe.
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