Subdue rp good or bad?

[samsara]

Honestly I'm not sure why there is the large gap in karma required to play a half-giant as compared to a mul. Both can be brutal in the extreme and require a high degree of talent and patience to be role-played correctly. Both have cultural/genetic constraints set on them, and must be played accordingly. I've been suprised at the number of half-giant PC's I've seen in the past few months, but more surprising is the number that seem to wander at will, either alone, or together.  HG's may have low wisdom, and not get sparring opportunties as much, but as noted, many get a lot of blood time. They are fearsome in size and strength, and rightly so feared in combat. I've heard people say with regards to both muls and half-giants, in particular the latter, that it takes only one hit.
With subdue as it is, I'm not sure why half-giants like muls are not a higher karma class.

[I Have Steel]

The point is that the same people who complain about subdue or whatever not being realistic, do not themselves run thier chars in a realistic fashion, that they have thier chars do things that they themselves would NEVER do (unless incredibly stupid) nor would anybody.

Wrong..

My characters fear, despise, hold jealousy for, and wish dead Magickers. Back away from Half-Giants with wide eyes, make emotes to randomly steer clear in the streets, hide behind the nearest skinny when a Templar's cheeks turn red, and all of that.

Don't judge the way I roleplay, just because my opinion differs from yours.

I know a half-giant and what he could do if he subdued a man, and I also know that a man wouldn't just stand there looking stupid when this half-giant went to grab him. (Which is EXACTLY what the code does as far as fending it off in the way it would actually be fended.)

It's easy to tell us to see the ROLEPLAY side of it as a work-around to the code. But take a look at the lack of roleplay to our characters, who can do nothing against it now, ultimately sacrificing our chances, just so the opposite character can have an advantage.

And it kinda irks me, this is being targeted full on as a Half-giant vs Human issue, when that was never the subject of my original post. This was from any race to any race. Human/Human, Human/Dwarf, Elf/Gith, HG/Mek, ect ect ect... And from PC to NPC as well as PC to PC.

That is how this whole thing got started, some frail little human because of his players ooc knowledge decided he could take on an armored creature 10 times his size, alone, with some little toothpicks and he lost, and that is the only realistic thing about the whole deal. He should have lost, he did.

No, actually it's not how it got started. As I said once before, my current character is still alive after 3 months, and has never even been in a situation involving subdue outside of any training they've done.

I'm sorry if someone felt targeted/guilty about the situation and something that happened with them, but I can assure you 100% it had nothing to do with my PC. Coincidences DO happen, and guess what...  :shock: This is one of them! So please stop throwing out blind accusations at me and my intentions on posting?

[X-D]

Somewhat off topic I suppose, But I'd love to see karma shuffled around a bit.

Put dwarves at 1 karma like desert elves, move drov into #2 karma with viv, move ruk up to 3 and move krathis down to 3, move giant up to 4, have elkros and nilazi at 5, mul to 6, sorc at 7 and psi at 8.

Oh, and open up gith at 4 with half-giant:)

Edit:

Calm down IHS, it has been a long thread and even near perfect people such as myself can get messed up now and again. And an instance was mentioned in a post here or on the combat thread about a lone non half-giant pc going after a half-giant.

[Tamarin]

Put dwarves at 1 karma like desert elves

Interesting...I imagine this will have some opposition.

[X-D]

X-D wrote:
Put dwarves at 1 karma like desert elves


Interesting...I imagine this will have some opposition.

Heh, yup, that arguement is worthy a thread all it's own.

[Tamarin]

Put dwarves at 1 karma like desert elves.

Interesting...I imagine this will have some opposition.

Heh, yup, that arguement is worthy a thread all it's own.

Consider it threaded.  No point branching here.

[Ralin]

My biggest problem with subdue is that flee is the only escape. I mean, when you go to subdue, you drop your weapons (if you had them in your hands), but the person you're subdueing did not. Is it so crazy to think that said person is gonna be flailing away with his/her weapons at the subduer trying to get free?

I just think there should be an alternate escape from subdue other than flee. Maybe a coded command that let's you attempt to hit so and so in the foot with your weapon, or jab at so and so's waist/neck/arm/anything with your weapon. An armed person who's been subdued isn't gonna just stand there like "Oh, you got me...I guess I'm done. Well, maybe if I wiggle this way and that." Um...no? I'm gonna be using what's in my hands as well as struggling with my body to do whatever it takes to get free of the hold.

[jmordetsky]

My thoughts:

Subdue should function like backstab and sap if you are not in combat. And while not in combat you should be able to subdue an armed individual with no penalty.

In combat, subdue should work like bash, with a penalty for a miss. And should *NOT* work against armed opponents *or* should at a substantial penalty. Sidestepping an armed fighter and wrapping them up should be a hard thing to do in my oppinion.

I think those rules would cover every RP scenario having to do with subdue. The flee-return scenario, sneak up behind scenario, and the subdue in combat scenario are all covered.

Anything I missed?

[Kalden]

In combat, subdue should work like bash, with a penalty for a miss. And should *NOT* work against armed opponents *or* should at a substantial penalty. Sidestepping an armed fighter and wrapping them up should be a hard thing to do in my oppinion.

Sounds good to me. The whole problem is easily solved: as ERS said in the beginning, subdue should be usable during combat, at a penalty. When that is implemented, the flee; subdue, flee; subdue combo will become twinkish.

[Quirk]

And while not in combat you should be able to subdue an armed individual with no penalty.

Uh, no. Maybe from hiding. You shouldn't be able to subdue an armed individual without them having the chance to hit you, as you have to pass through the range of their weapons to get to grappling distance. If they do hit you, the chances of you pinioning them should be greatly reduced, perhaps even non-existent.

Quirk

[EvilRoeSlade]

Uh, no. Maybe from hiding. You shouldn't be able to subdue an armed individual without them having the chance to hit you, as you have to pass through the range of their weapons to get to grappling distance.  If they do hit you, the chances of you pinioning them should be greatly reduced, perhaps even non-existent.

Not if you're a half-giant.

[Anonymous]

Uh, no. Maybe from hiding. You shouldn't be able to subdue an armed individual without them having the chance to hit you, as you have to pass through the range of their weapons to get to grappling distance.  If they do hit you, the chances of you pinioning them should be greatly reduced, perhaps even non-existent.

Not if you're a half-giant.

...with telepathic powers maybe.  Last time I checked my PCs were able to hurt half-giants, so why can I now magickally not cut their hand when they reach out for me?  I'm not saying cut it off, just cut at them.

Unless they are subduing me with half-giant breath.

[Kalden]

Well, when you bash, you do the same sort of lunge, but that doesn't give a free attack. Sorry, folks, but Armageddon is never gonna be completely realistic. It's hardly even moderately realistic, as it is, but the system works. It's fun.

I think it would be reasonable to a free attack as part of the penalty of subduing during combat, though.

[jmordetsky]

Uh, no. Maybe from hiding. You shouldn't be able to subdue an armed individual without them having the chance to hit you, as you have to pass through the range of their weapons to get to grappling distance. If they do hit you, the chances of you pinioning them should be greatly reduced, perhaps even non-existent.

You know what, I think you are sort of right. My thoughts on letting this be is because an individual could in a conversation and then someone could come up behind then and subdue them. When not in combat, subdue should be treated as a mix of stealth and bruteforce attack.

That said, under this algo, subdue would work like backstab and sap, and would have a delay yea?  So the target would get a chance to hit as they would with a backstab. But you wouldn't be penalized for trying to come up and grab someone who happened to have weapons, and you wouldn't *need* to be hidden as you don't with sab and BS.

So Revised:

Subdue should function like backstab and sap if you are *not* in combat. There being a delay, and a chance at being noticed or failure which would allow the target an attack upon the attacker. The target would still also have the ability to "struggle away" if the subdue succeeded as exists now. Using subdue in this capacity, you should be able to subdue an armed individual with no penalty.

In combat, subdue should work like bash, with a penalty for a miss and should suffer all of the "armed vs unarmed" penalties and bonuses currently in coded into the combat system. Though subduing an opponent in armed combat should be a difficult task.

[Quirk]

Actually, no I don't think your right...reason being is because under this algo, subdue would work like backstab and sap, and would have a delay yea?

Well, sap and backstab are "sneaky" skills. Subdue is not. If you put a delay on it but no penalty, you'd also need an echo at the start of the attempt to subdue (suppressed if the person subduing is in hiding) as well as when the subdue attempt took effect. I think that would work...

The big tough man prepares to subdue you.

> hit tough

You do unspeakable damage to the big tough man's neck.
You lightly slash the big tough man's wrist.

The big tough man fails to subdue you.

Quirk

[jmordetsky]

Well, sap and backstab are "sneaky" skills. Subdue is not.

*note: I edited the previous post a bit...*

A valid point.

There are three RP scenarios for subdue then:

Subdue in combat: Skillfully moving to 'tie' someone up in a fight
Subdue as bruteforce: The HG reach out and maul
Subdue as a stealth attack: Comming from out of sight or behind and grabbing.

I think your scenario is good for 2, the ones I outlined work for 1+3. All three could be variations of the skill you have and would have to be trained seperately.

Subdue_combat
Subdue_force
Subdue_stealth

Thoughts?

Though, I'll be honest, in thinking about this I'm not sure about subdue as a skill anymore period. I mean, essentially this is a death move. Am I correct in saying once you are subdued the "subduer" and bonk you over the head and knock you out? And still keep you held? Is that correct?

If so, I want to add, that if you have someone subdued, you should:

a) Not be able to attack them without the victim getting a simultaneous saving throw with a bonus because you would have to reposition to poise the strike.

I mean, your holding a struggling person. Even you are a HG I can't think of an RP use case where this would be realistic. (all, feel free to suggest one)


And one last point, when the victim *flees* the subdue, they lose endurance. The subduer should lose endurance as well....though not as much.

I think these points would expand subdue into a much more useful and realistic skill, but at the same time balance the power assoicated with the move out a great deal.

[Quirk]

Though, I'll be honest, in thinking about this I'm not sure about subdue as a skill anymore period. I mean, essentially this is a death move. Am I correct in saying once you are subdued the "subduer" and bonk you over the head and knock you out? And still keep you held? Is that correct?

Not quite. In former times someone could draw a weapon while subduing and attack the person subdued, but this was (rightly) deemed a source of much twinking and was removed. I believe currently you can punch someone bare-handed at the cost of losing the subdue, although I suspect they don't get much defence against the punch landing.

More potently, I believe the subduer can remove your weapons and armour while they have you subdued, releasing you at the end to face them unarmed. Being unarmed against an armed opponent isn't generally good, but in this case you may be able to subdue them back and swap back the weapons and armour. Assuming that I'm right on this, it could get hysterically funny fast.

I can understand the view that subdue is a necessary evil because law enforcers have to take people in - but really, if someone is offering armed resistance, it would be more realistic for the soldiers to draw themselves and demonstrate the penalties for resisting arrest.

Quirk

[jmordetsky]

Not quite. In former times someone could draw a weapon while subduing and attack the person subdued, but this was (rightly) deemed a source of much twinking and was removed. I believe currently you can punch someone bare-handed at the cost of losing the subdue, although I suspect they don't get much defence against the punch landing.

Okay, thats good to hear.

More potently, I believe the subduer can remove your weapons and armour while they have you subdued, releasing you at the end to face them unarmed. Being unarmed against an armed opponent isn't generally good, but in this case you may be able to subdue them back and swap back the weapons and armour. Assuming that I'm right on this, it could get hysterically funny fast.

This however, is not. Seriously? Thats a bit cartoonish...I mean, so what I'm holding you up by one leg and pulling your clothes off with my other hand? This should be removed.

I can understand the view that subdue is a necessary evil because law enforcers have to take people in - but really, if someone is offering armed resistance, it would be more realistic for the soldiers to draw themselves and demonstrate the penalties for resisting arrest.

Agreed.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

This is not a flame. I respect the right of others to an opinion, and I hope they respect my right. On that note, this is my opinion.

Saying subdue should be removed is bullshit. Secondly, everyone who is complaining about it should look at just how many characters they have had die to it. Thirdly, if your characters are dying often to it, just what the bloody fuck are they doing?

I play nothing but combative characters, and I have never had a character die to subdue. EVER. I have been playing for 4 years, folks. Four. I venture that many folks who do die to subdue do so rarely, and that they are upset because of the helplessness of the situation.

But look at it this way. If you have never been in a fight, or never had training to combat subdue, IRL, you are not going to be ready for the arms that snake out at you in the night and break your neck, nor the thug that walks past you and suddenly turns, grabbing you about the throat and demanding money from you. If you expect to be able to flee a subdue, train it, just like you train everything else.

Simply put, subdue, when they removed the ability to have even a single weapon at hand while doing it, went from being a bit unrealistic, to being underpowered.

I have subdued someone before, so let me outline a senario that I personally witnessed and was involved in. Back in the day, I was a broke mothafucka. I'd just been released from prison, and I had no job and no dope to sell, and I was not in a good position monetarily.

Me and a homie decided that we were going to jack somebody, get some cheddar. It was payday (I think the first), and so we assumed that we could come up fairly easy. We took off down a bike trail. Several folks came by but they seemed as though they were not worth the time. Then a fellow on a bike came by. This fellow was large, and he came hurtling down the trail.

I stepped into his path, and he lost control. We ran over to him, and I wrapped an arm about this fellow's neck. This man was not only bigger, but also stronger than I. But I had him in a compromising postion, and he was unable to fully move his body about in the manner he needed to. I had a knife in the other hand, and I held it to his ear, threatening him, while me and my partner went through his gear. We let him go when we had his wallet and went our way, after making sure he'd not get up again fast enough to hinder our escape.

I don't now condone any of the actions that I took back then, and I am sure many of you will now look at me as though I am a common street thug, and view me with far more disdain than you currently do. Well, I was, back then. But I hope you get the point of the story. Subdueing and striking a mothafucka is not that fucking hard. Granted, I'd add in a check for a strike before if the opponent is armed, but once the opponent is subdued, I have no problem with being able to disarm, unarmor, punch, slap, or give the bastard a noogie.

Subdue, as it is, is a perfectly fine tool, and the fact that you cannot hold a weapon while subdueing is not only unrealistic, but should certianly be enough of a compromise in realism for you purists. I have the feeling that no matter how much is done to change the game, there will always be complaints about what is really best. It's a harsh world, folks. Expect it to not always be fair. Train, prepare, and die.

I don't expect this to end the thread, and I don't expect anyone to suddenly agree with me. I hope that those who do not continue to post about why not, and I hope the discussion continues. Healthy debate is the cornerstone of mental agility.

[Quirk]

I don't think anyone has any complaints about subdue on the unarmed. Subdue on those hefting a deadly weapon and ready to defend themselves is where the discussion has inevitably centred, and I don't see anyone claiming it should be easy to take down, bare-handed, a guy with a sword or axe that he knows how to use.

And yes, I have lost at least one character to subdue.

Quirk

[sarahjc]

My opinion on subdue..

I think of it in terms of a bouncer wrapping a person up and throwing them out of a bar.. It is extremely hard to control a wiggling, kicking screaming person.. no matter what your size..and as far as GH's go.. I think it’s the same, a person should be able to wiggle free. They are smaller and far more agile.
The subduer should -not- be able to fight at all, unless subdued person is released. In fact the -only- way I could see it being an effective tool in combat was it were a two on one situation and the subduer stood there subduing while the other combatant beats you to a pulp.

The efforts that go into holding a person still and forcing them to your will, (which is essentially what subdue is) is difficult, extremely difficult.  Think outside the code.. They are kicking you in the shins, biting, clawing, stepping on your feet… If you are an HG, they may even drop a kick to your nuts..

These are difficult things to deal with… You -should- not be able to concentrate on much else.. Forget about trying to remove armor or weapons, your just trying to keep their arms from flailing. If you need to disarm them, it should be an action all it's own done before subdue. As it is difficult to subdue anyone waving a knife or sword in your face.

Think of this..

The wild haired toothless woman arrives from the west, blades drawn with a crazy look in her eyes; she is clearly drunk..

The wild haired toothless woman viscously attacks you calling you a cheating lying bastard and slices you hard on the arm.

<Disarm Wild>

You disarm the wild-haired, toothless woman, sending her blades flying, as she lets out a shrill scream.

<subdue wild>

You Subdue the wild-haired, toothless woman as she kicks at your shins and shouts profanities.


If you want to disarm them, that should be a separate task all together. And subdue should be only thing you can do.. if that's what you are doing.. This "I can hold a weapon, take off your pants, drink a cup of tea and sap you all because I am an uberwarrior or and HG" stuff  is crap..

We've all seen the cop shows when the crazy drunk trailer woman won't get into the police car.. That is image I think of subdue..Not an easy task at all…

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Cops are only allowed to use a certian amount of force and violence to get a person subdued, and often times, today's police err on the side of less violence because of the intense media coverage police beatings receive. It is safe to say that in Zalanthas, such concerns do not surface. Therefore, it is far easier to obtain a hold on someone.

[jmordetsky]

I don't think anyone has any complaints about subdue on the unarmed. Subdue on those hefting a deadly weapon and ready to defend themselves is where the discussion has inevitably centred, and I don't see anyone claiming it should be easy to take down, bare-handed, a guy with a sword or axe that he knows how to use.

Yes.

Several folks came by but they seemed as though they were not worth the time. Then a fellow on a bike came by. This fellow was large, and he came hurtling down the trail.

I stepped into his path, and he lost control. We ran over to him, and I wrapped an arm about this fellow's neck

Well...thats not very nice...But if you were to RP that as a scene it would fall under the subdue_stealth category. You are making your way down a path, waiting for your mark.  You see him and type the command and then with the proper "sap/backstab like delay" representing your approach and ability to fail...  you reach out nab him. And proceed with said extortion.

Had you not surprised, him he may not have lost balance. Had you been slower, or the mark a little bit more alert, he might have grabbed your wrist as you came at him and reversed, or darted off and grabbed the fuzz. Had you been a little less strong, he may have squirmed away. Had he been better trained, he might have flipped you over his shoulder.

The exercise as of this far into the post isn't to discuss if subdue has a place, it does. Subdue is not a twinks tool, but right now as it stands, one simple command attempts to realistically represent many, many different scenarios. And where it falls short, work arounds have been found and complaints filed.

At this point, I'm trying to think of simple rule sets that could be coded (hopefully without too much of an overhaul) to make the coded experience of subdue more realistic and better fitted to the varying scenarios we're capable of in a game like armageddon.

Also, breaking into three sets of skills gives it more flexibilty.

For example, you are not a half-giant, as a result, you employeed a knife to disable your quarry. This type of subdue is very different from when the bouncer in a bar picks me up and throws me into the street for drunken tomfoolery. And much further from when I throw a punch at Steven Segal and he grabs my wrist and whips it around my back and me into a wall.

I don't think subdue should go away but I am all for maturity.

As for dieing to subdue...I have been playing since I was senior in college (on and off). The first two years of which were a sorry state of affairs.

I've had about 3 chars die as a result of subdue. Two of which were my fault and conditions of stupid behavior.

The last was much later after I'd learned to play and I while I don't blame the other player, I still think the scene would have been more mature had the subdue code been more mature. The scene still plays in my memory as  Emote-me, Emote-him, subdue, bonk, mantis.

[Gorobei]

More potently, I believe the subduer can remove your weapons and armour while they have you subdued, releasing you at the end to face them unarmed. Being unarmed against an armed opponent isn't generally good, but in this case you may be able to subdue them back and swap back the weapons and armour. Assuming that I'm right on this, it could get hysterically funny fast.

This isn't true.  Soldiers and such sometimes emote tearing off your pack to search your belongings while they have you subdued (especially if they have a friend with them), but it's left up to the captured player to actually remove the item, and they can refuse if they feel that their character is struggling too hard or something like that.

[X-D]

Well, lets answer a bit here, since this thread seems to be alive still.

Having been a bouncer before, at Dejavu(strip club chain) And a place called Nashvilles(country western, run into some real idiots there) For a little over a year, let me say that first, getting ahold of somebody who is armed and ready for you (knives, broken bottles, clubs) is not all that hard to do, keeping hold of them is also very easy if you are a reasonable amount larger then them, or skilled, somebody who weighs 140lbs to my 200 can squirm all they want, they are not getting away, and for people the same weight or heavier then me, well, there are positions I can put you in that if you do squirm, you hurt yourself, and if you fight hard enough to get away, you will, but with rather majer damage to yourself.

Getting kicked in the nuts by somebody you have subdued, heh, good way to end up with your arm brought around behind you then straight up over your head, it makes a neat popping sound by the way and even the biggest manliest guys scream like little girls then, sometimes puke and or pass out.

While I was bouncing at nashvilles I got to know one of the most frightening men I've ever met, don't get me wrong here, he was a real nice guy, but he was huge, 6'4" 350-375lbs benched over 500lbs, name was john, and nobody he ever grabbed ever got away, and it did not matter where he grabbed them, once saw him grab a guy who was around 6' 190lbs, grabbed him by the elbow, the man (stupid) punched John, John did not let him go, but he did grab the guy's other arm, bring it around behind him, release the other arm, swing him around and directly into the fist that had been lately holding the elbow, then pull the man back and pulled him forward 2 more times into his swinging fist, needless to say, ambulance was called.

As for the game, I see subdue exactly the way it is IRL, if you are not much larger and stronger then the person you are attempting to subdue then speed and skill come into play, if you are much larger and stronger then less skill and simple brute force.

From real life experiance I think that it should be impossible for most things to escape from a half-giant subdue, but even if they can it should be with damage, I mean, if I'm a lot bigger then someone and I have both of thier arms pinned, the harder they struggle, the harder I squeeze.

If I was 12 feet tall and 2000 pounds and I was holding something that weighed 200 pounds, They would be crushed like a tomato before I let go.

Currently, subdue is underpowered for every race and way too easy to escape from, I still have not figured out how a halfling escapes the grasp of a half-giant, agility means nothing once subdued, again, at least in real life.

Oh, and I've not lost a char to subdue in all my years of play, nor have I killed another pc in that manner.