Subdue rp good or bad?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In my personal opinion, when the code, via unrealistic actions, allows you to do something that you should be able to do in real life, you should do it. If that means that in order to subdue your ass during a fight I have to flee and come back and try, then that is what I am going to do. When the code allows one to try to do it during combat, then I will no longer flee and come back.

If the question suddenly becomes, "Can you subdue in combat in real life?", then the answer is a resounding, "YES!"

[Tamarin]

I've lost the will to argue this.  Giant ultra-subdue is fine by me.

[Anonymous]

In my personal opinion, when the code, via unrealistic actions, allows you to do something that you should be able to do in real life, you should do it. If that means that in order to subdue your ass during a fight I have to flee and come back and try, then that is what I am going to do. When the code allows one to try to do it during combat, then I will no longer flee and come back.

If the question suddenly becomes, "Can you subdue in combat in real life?", then the answer is a resounding, "YES!"

Problem is, 7DV, that when you flee you are being removed from combat, so I can't keep hacking at you.  That's what bothers me about it.  It becomes a race between players as to who can type their command first since a player typing kill first will cancel out the subdue and vice versa.

If it was set to work like disarm or bash (not requiring a flee), it wouldn't be so bad, because there could be some negatives built into it, like if you fail you end up on the ground, or the person gets a few extra whacks in on you like when you bend over to grab a weapon.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Completely agreed, CRW.

At the same time, just because the code has not been set up to allow me the chance to subdue you during combat at this time, does not mean that I will not do what I have to do to accomplish it. Hopefully, it will do this in the future. Until then, I don't believe in not doing it just because in another's mind it appears twinkish.

A prime example of this would be if I were a soldier in a City-State. I would flee/subdue without qualm because the code does not allow me to do it while in combat.

But completely agreed, CRW.

[Mr.Camel]

While I think you should be able to subdue in combat, the fact that it isn't possible means that you'r not supposed to, and flee-subduing is just getting around that opstacle that was put in the code.

[Echo]

Quirk, I respect your views even though I strongly disagree with them. What you call gaining an unrealistic advantage I call gaining a realistic advantage based on race. I too take martial arts, a style called Budokai which is a variant of Aikido with some kicking forms added. I would never choose to get into any fight, but I know that were I to be attacked and I was unarmed I feel confidant enough that 1) I will be cut and 2) I will kill the attacker.

Your cries of ridiculous and unrealistic role-play aside, my point is that even if a master of knives comes at me I am going to try to remember my training and defend myself appropriately... I will most likely die, yes. And you will never hear me say that I would like to fight someone unarmed when they have a weapon. I see the ability to "ATTEMPT" a grab as necessary and I explained such thuroughly in my other post. If the only way I can 'ATTEMPT' a subdue is to 'flee' and come back into the room then that's what I do. You however see any attempt of grappling as 'ridiculous' and 'unrealistic' if the other person has a weapon. Does this rule out bash as well? Should we take bash out because the opponent says he would stab the basher in the eye before he got close? Do weapons have something to do with bashing? Am I bashing you with the flat of my dagger?

Anyway, we have different ways of looking at the situation... I may not think your view is ridiculous but I do think it is misguided and inappropriate to this game.

[Tmp]

Justifications of actions that are dodgy are always lame, because it only exists in the mind of the doer. Something that you should be able to do in real life but can only be done via an exploit, sounds like a sad justification to me.

If something isn't modelled properly in the game, it doesn't exist. You can't just do a work around with the quirky way the combat code works and claim that you're doing something IC, especially when that quirk results in a definate disadvantage to the other player. Until you can actually subdue during combat, or flee subdue with the appropriate penalties heaped onto you to take into account that the other guy won't be just staring at you while you back off however much distance you think you're backing off in your mind ... meh.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would like to see official staff opinion regarding such a situation. If fleeing and coming back to subdue is twinkish in the staff's eyes, then I will not do it. If they do not find it twinkish, then I will persist. It really comes down to being that simple.

[Anonymous]

I would like to see official staff opinion regarding such a situation.

Me too.  Is fleeing to attempt a subdue or backstab multiple times acceptable use of the code or not.

This is one of those times where I don't think varying opinions of players is going to help the matter because everyone seems pretty polarized on the topic.  Here's a vote for some advice from on high.  Hell, if it's ok to do, I'll certainly be doing it.

[Quirk]

Quirk, I respect your views even though I strongly disagree with them. What you call gaining an unrealistic advantage I call gaining a realistic advantage based on race. I too take martial arts, a style called Budokai which is a variant of Aikido with some kicking forms added. I would never choose to get into any fight, but I know that were I to be attacked and I was unarmed I feel confidant enough that 1) I will be cut and 2) I will kill the attacker.

Well, without making this into a martial arts thread, I sincerely suggest you get out there and get some sparring practice in - even just getting a random non-martial-artist friend to pick up a rubber knife and try cutting you up. I think you'll find that being certain you can kill even an unarmed attacker is a pretty ludicrous stance to adopt (unless of course you're a top-notch cage fighter or have similar combat experience). Claiming you'd kill an attacker who came at you armed with a knife... well, I sincerely suggest you get someone who doesn't play by dojo rules to test you, before you get too foolhardy in a real situation. If your Aikido is anything like the normal uke-tori version this goes doubly - real assailants are not going to be compliant like your ukes.

You however see any attempt of grappling as 'ridiculous' and 'unrealistic' if the other person has a weapon.

Not at all. I have merely pointed out on numerous occasions that while it's a highly dangerous business in reality, the code does not reflect this, and it's fairly easy to subdue
someone whose guard you could not pass with a weapon or a bare fist. Hence my cries of "code abuse" - it's using what can only really be construed as a bug to gain an advantage unlikely to be available in that situation. Bash is (in my experience) often considerably more difficult to get off, and it has a significant coded disadvantage after failure, so it isn't subject to the same abusability.

Quirk

[Quirk]

I would like to see official staff opinion regarding such a situation. If fleeing and coming back to subdue is twinkish in the staff's eyes, then I will not do it. If they do not find it twinkish, then I will persist. It really comes down to being that simple.

From Sanvean's post in the Subdue thread recently:

I think the issue here is that some people are using subdue and hit in this manner to twink out on a fight. Flee, come back in, and try and subdue a prepared fighter with drawn weapons who, realistically, would just attack you the second you get anywhere close enough him to grab him.

If someone is doing this consistently, please feel free to drop an email with the details to the mud account.

From an earlier thread on backstab and flee:

Backstabbing during combat is another thing entirely. I'm of the opinion that, during a fight, anything goes. So long as its RP'd, I don't mind seeing an Assassin fall back, and set up another trap for his or her victim. I'd be alittle against a simple backstab, flee, return, backstab routine...however, if the assassin actually made use of thier skills:

backstab, flee, sneak, return, hide, shadow opponent, backstab...hell, even just sneaking back and backstabbing is a better solution than simply running back in and backstabbing. Doing that is using your assassin as a warrior...and thats a good way to kill off an assassin.

Hope that helps.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

See, what Tlaloc is saying there makes perfect sense, you flee, get a few rooms away, hide behind an object and wait for them to be looking for you, then whammo, backstab again.  Just because the person is on alert doesn't mean that you still can't surprise them.  At least, if I understand him correctly.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Quirk, the two views are both conflicting and agreeing at the same time. Read them again.

Sanvean says to 'feel free to drop an email with the details to the mud account' so that the staff can evaluate the situation. I don't believe her statement condones or condemns either stance.

Thaloc says that 'simply running back in and backstabbing ... is using your assassin as a warrior'. I don't remember saying anything about an assassin. You may note, however, that he has no prob with seeing an assassin fall back and come back with the correct RP.

Therefore, as previously stated, I would like to see an official staff opinion regarding this situation.

Note: Quirk, you the man, 4 real. You cool as fuck. But don't match wits with me. I win. You know this already.

[Tamarin]

I think its getting near the point where this thread needs to be put to sleep.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think its getting near the point where this thread needs to be put to sleep.

Why? Nobody is flaming. Nobody is pissed. Healthy discussion is good for your health. It's good for your mind.

[Tamarin]

You're probably right...maybe I'm so damn tired.  Yep, that's why.  As you were.

[Twilight]

I thought I would comment on half-giants subduing.

Because of their dim wits, half-giants will have to focus very hard on one thing to get it right. When panicked or rushed, this kind of concentration breaks down, and half-giants will tend to make all sorts of blunders.

coupled with

Both their limited attention resources and their dim wits make them very inflexible in their thinking tasks. From a problem solving point of view, a half-giant is likely to adopt one approach and stick with it to the bitter end.

and of course

Perseverance is another characteristic which describes inflexibility in problem solving tasks, but in a different light. Just as someone with inflexibility will have difficulty adopting new problem solving approaches, someone who is persevering will continue to do the same thing over and over again - even when it is absurd. The examples of this are endless, and open to varied interpretation.

All of this is my interpretation of half-giant roleplay, but, here goes.  If your half-giant is suddenly coming up with this incredibly great, flexible combat strategy of grabbing someone with no prior experience.  Well, I would probably just go, ummmm.  Prior experience, cool.  Hard to know as the other person, of course.

The reason it is sometimes sane to go against a half-giant is the above aspects of their mind.  They are going to (imho) have a few well practiced combat manuevers they do, over and over and over and over until it gets the job done.  If you were trained well enough, and perhaps desperate enough, after you read what those were going to be, it would just be a matter of figuring out a strategy to get past them.  The half giant is generally not going to improvise on you in the middle of combat, unless, of course, its a blunder.  In which case that blunder technique, whether good or bad in a real light might be added to their routine.

Of course, this is all sort of the RP aspect that others have brought up.  People have said about if you got inside of a half-giants weapon range, they would just drop the weapon and grab you.  Sure, if that is one of the limited number of techniques they have.  If it is not, though, it is unlikely they are going to improvise and grab you.  Most likely they are going to stick with the tried and true method of trying to smash you with their weapon, whether or not it really makes sense.

So anyways, that's my take on why it is feasible to take on a half giant.  Not completely sane, by any stretch of the imagination, but feasible.

Oh yes, almost forget.  Half giants are between 10 and 12.5 feet tall.  They are not going to take one step back and be 20 feet away, more like 6.

[X-D]

I don't know about half-giants that have never worked for anybody, but I tell ya what, the thing most often heard by a militia or legion half-giant is, "grab him" So, grabbing something is well practiced by those half-giants. And yes, if this is the practiced method, and it has worked time and again, then he is going to keep doing it, as a matter of fact, I could easily see a half-giant attempting a grab, missing, getting hit and attempting again and again till he grabs the opponent or is dead, but sadly this bit of proper play of a half-giant is not allowed by code unless you use the dreaded flee command.

Otherwise, I would love if the code allowed a half-giant to simply sweep a big ass weapon side to side at waist height of his opponent(s) A very simple and half-giant style of combat, also it would be extremly effective, but the code does not do that, so do to code it is nearly impossible to rp the combat of a half-giant the way the docs state a half-giant thinks and acts. Also partly because the people playing non-half-giants do not treat them that way either.

Also, to this I will answer.

Oh yes, almost forget. Half giants are between 10 and 12.5 feet tall. They are not going to take one step back and be 20 feet away, more like 6.

Since I think I made the statement, Yes, the half-giant takes a step back and thats like 6 feet, not twenty, but I also stated that the reach of said half-giant with weapon included is around 10 feet and it was a combined distance. Even a half-giant can figure out pretty quick that if the guy with the pointy stick gets close enough he will poke him with the stick, it will hurt, keep guy with pointy stick away and no poking, no hurt, again, not a far stretch to think they would figure out they have a longer reach and to use it, stay back and swing, I hit him, he don't hit me.

But again, code does not reflect this, in combat or otherwise for that matter. Think about it, code allows a half-giant to parry and dodge, but according to size, physics and docs, these things should be all but impossible for a half-giant to do, at the same time though, it should be extremly hard to parry a blow from a half-giant or to dodge one, yet I've seen halflings parry a huge half-giant sized two-handed stone axe with a knife, snort. And the best part is the number of people that think that a dumb slow unimaginative half-giant has to fight on the same level as they do.

Code-wise, in straight melee half-giants are guys that hit real hard that have no offense and even less defense.

How come I feel like the people that argue magickers are not nearly as feared as they should be because everybody knows how to kill them easily.

Oh, I know why, because it is the same thing, magicker, mystical power of the scary and powerful type, don't matter, they are limited by code and what the players know about the code, same for half-giants A big fucking mountain of muscle with a weapon scary, nah, we know they have no offense/defense and swing so slow any 5 day warrior can take one alone on his uber speed alone, oh wait, somebody figures out how to make them scary, Oh no no, can't have that, he cheated, yup, TWINK, TWINK, how dare you use the fact that your char is stronger and the size of a Kodiak to beat my uber dodging skills! Never mind that no sane person would ever think about trying to take on something like that alone.

Personaly I think it is slipping of RP by the players, Malifaxis had a thread complaining about how people ignored a very upset half-giant in a tavern, many people defended the actions of the pc's, or inaction as it may be, I found the defenses silly, IRL You damm sure would know if a 2,000lbs mountain of muscle was upset in a tavern, and to all you half-giant players out there, aside from people not treating the size of your char realisticly, when was the last time anybody tried to take advantage of your char's dim wits? I've seen elves treat half-giants Fairly!! Sad really.

Anyway, I'm tired and will probly get up in the morning and read this and go damm, what a rant, if it is, sorry ahead of time.

[Quirk]

Quirk, the two views are both conflicting and agreeing at the same time. Read them again.

Sanvean says to 'feel free to drop an email with the details to the mud account' so that the staff can evaluate the situation. I don't believe her statement condones or condemns either stance.

I would suggest that the staff desiring to take a look at the situation in more detail argues that using subdue and flee at the very least can be seen as abusing the code, whether it always is or not. The emphasis on "consistently" doing it would tend to reinforce that impression IMO.

Thaloc says that 'simply running back in and backstabbing ... is using your assassin as a warrior'. I don't remember saying anything about an assassin. You may note, however, that he has no prob with seeing an assassin fall back and come back with the correct RP.

CRW asked about flee and backstab, so I dug out a post on that topic from a previous thread which seems to say it's A-OK provided it's RPed through properly and uses the assassin's skills of concealment.

Quirk

[UnderSeven]

Thaloc says that 'simply running back in and backstabbing ... is using your assassin as a warrior'. I don't remember saying anything about an assassin. You may note, however, that he has no prob with seeing an assassin fall back and come back with the correct RP.

CRW asked about flee and backstab, so I dug out a post on that topic from a previous thread which seems to say it's A-OK provided it's RPed through properly and uses the assassin's skills of concealment.

Quirk

There is a reason flee and backstab isn't seen as terribly wrong.  It's a very simple reason.  Backstab + flee = delay.
Actually both of them alone equals delay, meaning what?  Meaning an assasin can't depend on their bs skill alone or sneak hide.  The other person, during their times of delay WILL have an oppertunity to beat the living crap out of the assasin.  IF the assasin has a high enough bs to win anyway, then that's fair, but unless they have at least some skill to back it up they will get toasted with a capitol P.  Don't ask what the P stands for, you'll just get further confused.  

Anyway, this isn't exactly the case with subdue.  Some races can't miss subdueing.  And if they manage to grab you, with their str, it's like an instant kill without having to actually have any skill whatsoever.  That's a little on the lame side.

The difference here is, strip away the rp and pretty emotes, using backstab in such a manner is balanced out better than using subdue in such a manner.

[X-D]

Anyway, this isn't exactly the case with subdue. Some races can't miss subdueing. And if they manage to grab you, with their str, it's like an instant kill without having to actually have any skill whatsoever. That's a little on the lame side.

And there is the clincher, the race least likly to fail a subdue simply does not have -skill- will probobly never have skill and even if they did have some skill it is often overmatched by even a human warrior with 5-10 days of play time, not to mention the other stats of the other races, which are leaps and bound higher then theirs.

The problem as I see it is the fact that the players simply think of them as really strong slow humans, just another pc to pit your uber 5 days of sparring time skills against and that these beings should be pitting the skills they have learned from sparring against you evenly.

And it simply is not the case, a 30day half-giant who has had access to a sparring ring and other half-giants to spar against still has around 1/100 the time in sparring as your average human 10day warrior, add to that VERY low wis, so that even what limited experiance they have is not capitalized on. This leaves you with a char that may have 30 days of play but has the skills equal to a 2days of play byn runner, add again the very low agi and the -fact- that most players do not treat them as the very scary titans that they are(should be), and yet you expect them to -play fair- Bah.

You want to deal with a half-giant, fucking outwit him/her that is where your non-half-giant char has an advantage, not in strength of combat. Roleplay, use brains, you'd probly be amazed at how well played most the half-giants in the game really are, how much thought goes into their actions by the player.

Read the half-giant docs, then, read them again, then play accordingly, the docs are as much for the people -not- playing something as they are for the people playing them. And maybe the other more complicated races while you are at it, Mul, Half-elf, I see a lot of very poor play around them too.

Believe me, the game as a whole will be much better for it.

Disclaimer: Not all the players treat them this way, but from what I see, a good 95% do.

[UnderSeven]

You want to deal with a half-giant, fucking outwit him/her that is where your non-half-giant char has an advantage, not in strength of combat. Roleplay, use brains, you'd probly be amazed at how well played most the half-giants in the game really are, how much thought goes into their actions by the player.

Read the half-giant docs, then, read them again, then play accordingly, the docs are as much for the people -not- playing something as they are for the people playing them. And maybe the other more complicated races while you are at it, Mul, Half-elf, I see a lot of very poor play around them too.

Believe me, the game as a whole will be much better for it.

Disclaimer: Not all the players treat them this way, but from what I see, a good 95% do.

I actually agree with this completely, but you can't blame a char for not seeing it this way.  Because it's a TWO WAY street.  In order for person A whom we'll define as human, to treat person B who we will define as half giant, or mul, of half elf, corrently, they must BOTH be in the mindset of their char.

A half giant has to play the dim wittedness correctly and not always have their player there to save them.

The mul has to take into account that they almost definatly come from a slave background (infact I think they all do but who knows maybe an exception occured somewhere) anyway and that their char would have feelings somehow about that ,maybe they lack a sense of self? Maybe they have rage issues, okay they deffinatly do, but slaves generally are broken, something the mul player tends to miss.

Half elves both crave exceptance AND solitude at the same time.  Wow these are fun to play.. and really hard, infact sometimes I wonder if they shouldn't be a karma race.

Anyway my point?  You're right, out smart the half giant, IF this were a perfect game where everyone did their roles right.

[X-D]

I'm not gonna quote underseven's post, it is correct (IMO) but I think, at least for the karma races you have to trust in the staff's judgement in that they gave this person 3 or, what is it for mul, 8 karma for a reason and that odds are that person is gonna try pretty hard and has a reasonable understanding on how the char should be played.

And if they don't, and you have read and think you understand the docs, log and mail mud asking the staff to look into it, I know most of them would be more then happy to do so. And if they find problem with it they will let the player know they need to shape up or else.

[spawnloser]

X-D, I know someone who played a HG for about 40 days play time.  I believe he was the most badass warrior I've seen in the game...in fact, at one time, nearly solo'd a [censored to protect the somewhat innocent] (I can't give him sole credit, as the other two guys did a few nicks and scratches) and also went around stomping on halflings for fun (and well, I may add).  I'm pretty sure that, in straight up fight, he could waste just about anyone else's character, including any guards in the way, if properly motivated.

The point of all this?  Don't think that just because a HG has a low wisdom that they can't work up some mad skillz, yo.  I find the, "stop picking on half-giants," tone of your post a bit disheartening...they are as balanced as a race that requires 3 karma should be.

Granted, I do think that subdue is a bit broken...agility should factor into it, for acquiring the hold, strength for keeping it, and I don't even know exactly how it works, and may do just that, but I don't think so.  Now, I don't care what you say, yes, their arm moves fast, but they're so freaking huge that it still takes longer for the hand to get from starting to move until finishing the move...aka, more time to react, making it easier to dive out of the way as soon as the hand starts moving towards you.

As far as tricking a half-giant...good luck.  I have seen it done once where someone did something quite stupid because of the slow hamster wheel turning upstairs.  I've also seen the roleplay of the half-giant that I mentioned above, and while I respect the players RP abilities, I found the character on a level that made it pretty much impossible to trick him in anyway...because the player wasn't tricked.  That's a hard type of thing to do...intentionally allowing yourself to be tricked so that you can RP your character being tricked..

[X-D]

Yes, I'm 99% sure I know of the one in which you speak, and I also know, through one specialy stealthy char of my own that the amount of hunting/fighting/halfling stomping this half-giant did in order to get that way would be considered downright twinky by most the players in the game.

I also know without a doubt that my last dwarf warrior at 30days, who killed halflings with such speed and ease as to make them look silly would have cleaned his clock.

But that is not the point, the point is how people have thier chars treat them, my dwarf could have easily taken just about any half-giant I've ever seen, and he feared nothing except not completing his focus. But would he willingly go toe to toe with a half-giant alone? No, hell, he did not like sparring friendly half-giants. Even though he routinly beat the living snot out of them in the ring and that was when he was under 15days. And that's just plain silly IMO.

The point is that the same people who complain about subdue or whatever not being realistic, do not themselves run thier chars in a realistic fashion, that they have thier chars do things that they themselves would NEVER do (unless incredibly stupid) nor would anybody.

That is how this whole thing got started, some frail little human because of his players ooc knowledge decided he could take on an armored creature 10 times his size, alone, with some little toothpicks and he lost, and that is the only realistic thing about the whole deal. He should have lost, he did.

Subdue is not broken, half-giants and muls are not broken, people's perceptions in how they play is what is broken.