Subdue rp good or bad?

[Forest Junkie]

Agreed with X-D.

[Clegane]

Agree wholeheartedly with X-D as well about the virtual variability of flee.

Just throwing may name out there in supprting opinion.

[jhunter]

Ditto.

[Twilight]

Maybe I should rephrase.

What I saw was people treating flee like they were backing up a couple of steps to stop combat.  Backing up a couple of steps to stop combat is disengage.  There is, amazingly, a reason as a primary target you can't just back up a couple of steps and combat stops.  Namely, your attacker.

When you flee, you get out of there damn quick.  Whether there is 10, 15, 100, or 1000 feet seperating you and your assailant when you stop fleeing is open to interpretation, based on the combat situation (is it a spar or a life and death situation, etc) and the specific room (sparring ring, cramped alleyway, middle of the wastes, etc).  Whatever it was, if you used flee you just got the hell out of there.  To the point, at the least, where you can no longer be considered engaged in melee with your attacker.

Putting it in context to the primary discussion, lets say you used flee.  You just got the hell out of there, meaning at the least you got the fuck away at least enough so you are no longer engaged in combat.  Then you run back in and try to subdue them?  If you are using flee/subdue, you are not simply moving in closer to try to tackle them whatever, because somewhere in there you left melee range.  Trying to say you are just doing a workaround for RP purposes smacks of just trying to justify the code advantage you are trying to gain, when it seems obvious, at least to me, that is not what the code represents.  Anways, just my opinion.

That is why I don't like the emotes when people just take a few steps back to get out of melee, especially when that is all that is emoted.  A couple of steps back, that is just a strategic move, how the hell is your opponent supposed to know you want to end combat (assuming a nice, peaseful spar)?  Now, running until you are out of a sparring ring (oh, my, getting the hell out of there!), makes a bit more sense.  Again, to me at least.

[Solo Sparring Queen]

When I'm sparring against a dummy I don't need to "run" away from it when I'm done. I take a few steps back. There's no "disengage" command for sparring and it would be a great idea but there isn't so the only option is to use the flee command. It doesn't mean I'm fleeing, why would I flee from a big sack of sand hanging from a rope? That's silly. I'm just taking a step away. If I'm sparring against a PC and it's time to end the spar (schedule says it's lunch time or whatever), why would either of us need to "flee" from the other? We're just ending the session. Nice and simple, backing off, taking a step away and lowering our weapons. No need to run, except there is no command to do this except for flee.

Sometimes you have to work *around* the code in ordered to roleplay. This is just one of those times.

[I Have Steel]

I agree 100% with Twilight.

Sparring Queen... There's a HUGE difference between ending a spar with flee, and fleeing just so you can work around the way subdue was coded. A VERY huge difference.

In sparring, you're actually ENDING the spar; thus both parties are ending their attacks in order to stop.

In combat, one party is using flee in the assumption that this opponent on his ass is just going to stand there and watch him get away, only to run back into the line of danger and suddenly grab him.

I personally can't see any kind of justified reason for it. If we were meant to be able to subdue during combat face to face, it would have been coded in with the skill.

Because when you're in combat, you're assumed to be right upon the opponent in a fight. You're not 20 feet away from each other, backing up after every attack, only to re-engage again come next round.

And that's what makes the whole workaround thing look more like an excuse to get around the code, IMO.

[X-D]

Because when you're in combat, you're ass-u-me-d to be right upon the opponent in a fight. You're not 20 feet away from each other, backing up after every attack, only to re-engage again come next round.

Wow, If power emotes are bad form what exactly is that considered?


And twilight, How exactly them, am I suppose to represent putting an object between us so that you have to come around giving me a chance to grapple? How am I supposed to to represent simply diving forward and attempting to grapple? How am I supposed to represent seeing any opening that allows me to make an attempt on grappling?

Keep in mind, with the current method, anybody that disarms themself to subdue is still taking a -huge- risk, especialy if they are not a half-giant or mul...as a matter of fact, it would be rather stupid, and unlikly to work out for the one attempting the subdue, so, we are only talking about half-giants and muls.

Come now Twilight, I have steel, come up with a currently coded manner in which a truly MASSIVE pc can use the abilities he has. A pc that can engage combat melee from 12 feet or more away and only need take a -single- step back to be 20+ feet away.

I want a fall racial skill for half-giants, that will solve this problem, lets see, human is close enough to hit giant in melee, giant simply spreads arms and falls on human, odds of dodging, minimal, damage, hhhmm, you just had two thousand  pounds...oh wait, add armor, thirty two hundred pounds fall on ya, The answer is, the human is very dead.

Of course that only works if you Assume they are upon ya, of course, hey, Lets do that, I like it, maybe I will idea it, We will Assume that melee alwasy has opponents as close as weapons will permit, that would make it impossible to dodge a bash from a half-giant with a large shield, lets see, 5 feet away from a 8 foot tall 5 foot wide shield powered by half-giant muscle, Yup, All half-giants should be able to bash near 100% because We are Assumed to be right on our opponent in combat.


Blah

[I Have Steel]

Come now Twilight, I have steel, come up with a currently coded manner in which a truly MASSIVE pc can use the abilities he has. A pc that can engage combat melee from 12 feet or more away and only need take a -single- step back to be 20+ feet away.

Ok, it's called, massively superior strength. It's a size advantage that makes these skills easier to land, when it's the right time to use them. It's the ability to wield a weapon that'll end the average human in a single hit, when it does hit. And so on.

Maybe it's just me, but when I see a fight going on between two people, I don't see them swinging swords at each other from fifteen feet away. Unless your Gandalf and that other guy playing dueling staves. that or the occasional whip or polearm duel, which would still be no easier to back away from than it would be to get away from close-combat weapons as the distance is still closed between the two weapon's lengths.

So, you wanna back away from the fight, then re-enter to subdue...

Only problem is in a real scenario, it'd be like this...

[So and so backs away in an attempt to get that opening to make the grab. But so and so 2 stays on so and so'd heels, because after all, this is a fight, and you don't want your opponent getting away.]

not...

[So and so backs away in an attempt to get that opening to make the grab. So... So and so 2 stops fighting and lowers his weapons, staring dumbfounded while you re-engage and make a subdue attempt, that his weapons don't matter against, because you aren't engaged in combat now, So and so 2's character is just standing there.]


By using the flee command to run out, run back in and subdue, you're basically saying... "Hey, I just ran, made this guy think I fled, only to run back in and grab him instantly, without giving him any kind of benefit of the fact that he probably stayed right on my heels.

Furthermore, if you wanna use the scenario of a half-giant falling atop someone, use the bash skill. In emoting falling on top of someone and then subduing, if you miss, you have a few seconds of lag, where as if you used bash and missed, you'd be down on the ground, where you would actually be if you missed that tiny human who managed to dodge the falling redwood.

I rarely play combat characters, and have probably used the subdue skill less than 20-30 times in 2 years of playing, but I can see it's simply a thing for playability. It was mentioned in another post that if someone is using that flee and subdue method, it should be reported to the mud. IMO, while there is a huge advantage to hopping out and in to take care of that pesky human that you can't out punch/kick/swordfight/clubsmash/ect..., There is tiny advantage to being able to fend from it.

[Lerl]

Yall just don't get it!  I am trying real hard not to flame but feel free to pm me if I ever cross the line and I'll just start ignoring this thread.  How do I say this simply.  Hmmm...  Ok, I didn't code it for Armageddon but I feel safe enough in saying this so don't get on me about that detail.  

Subdue and flee were designed to be used together.  Back when Armageddon was coded, I was a very active coder on other diku projects.  The whole focus back then on most dikus was to expand the limited number of classes and limited number skills in diku.  The easiest thing to do was to give one class the same skill as another but with a slight change.  Subdue was just a reworded and tweaked backstab. The game on dikus back then was attack, flee, rest, attack, flee, rest, attack and monster finally dies.  Thieves were way cool to play because with backstab you didn't have to rest as long between flees but even more so that backstab/flee was more interesting than just sitting at waiting for combat to end.  For diku trivia people out there, "circle" was the skill to backstab while still in combat.  Backstab was intended to be a powerful attack followed by a flee.

How does this relate to Armageddon especially in the present?  WE SETTLE LIFE AND DEATH ISSUES WITH EMOTE ENHANCED DIKU COMBAT MECHANICS. Back then, it was much better than the only other choice: combat emotes ("MUSH" combat). Today, is there something better to roleplay with?  Probably, but until we have it: FLEE, SUBDUE, BACKSTAB, POISON, BASH, KICK, RANGED COMBAT, AND EVEN ALL THE -VERY- EVIL TACTICAL MAGIC SPELLS (which I -wont- tell you of..don't pm me) ARE HOW THE COMBAT MECHANICS WORK.  They are balanced.  They were intentionally ment to be more than just "attack and see who wins".  Skills provide BOTH lots of interesting angles to roleplay and opportunistic ways for a fight to be INTERESTING, i.e. more than who has the best offense/defense skill.

Anyway I hope I didn't offend anyone.  It wasn't ment as a personal attack on anyone in particular just venting frustration at this whole topic.

Rick
P.S I forget the exact combat details of Arm.  But, if I remember right if you "bash" then, they can't flee right away perhaps even until they stand. *wink*

[I Have Steel]

So... Tell me then.

Was there any kind of defense coded in to an armed character, who is not engaged in combat having a better chance of not being subdued by a player?

Or do those swords in his/her hand that would more likely than not be used in an attempt to defend against the grubby hands lunging at him/her simply mean nothing because there is no combat going on. (because a subdue attempt doesn't initiate combat.) And from what I've seen, there's always been no real difference at all between the attempt to subdue; victim armed or unarmed. And doing this flee/subdue thing would definitely have the defender up in arms and defending, not just standing there like the game code works it.

[Lerl]

If you are asking me, most likely not as everyone was assumed to be armed.  I agree it isn't very realistic but realism was always a low priority back then.

[I Have Steel]

Thank you.

Not sure if it's ever been coded in, as I'm anything but close to an imm, or an Arm-expert, but I surely think it'd help this situation tons if it was made a part of the subdue/defend against subdue issue.

The whole free attack idea in another thread seems a grand idea IMO, as it shows your opponent isn't just still sitting there looking stupid while Blockhead Obsidianfists just walks up and grabs ya.  

[Echo]

Sadly Twilight, I Have Steel and Wardor(who my previous post should have been address to instead of I Have Steel apparently) continue to repeat the same argument in the same words... over... and over... and over...

Anyway, I will clarify one more time in the hopes that those who are still blinded by the mechanics of combat and roleplay will suddenly see the light.

STOP seeing Flee as running a block down the road with your back turned. Use ROLEPLAY to not see it as such. Unfortunately the majority of this problem relies on the second party to reach deep into their ROLEPLAY ability and react not according to the brutal code but according to the situation and to FILL IN THE BLANKS left by it.  Flee is a versatile command that simply represents disengaging from combat OR some form of change in that combat, to be determined by the end response. Did the person flee and then run off? If so, then they ran away. Did the person flee and then run back? If so, then they DID not run away, they merely changed the current state of that combat in some form in an attempt to try something. Can I throw the spear in my hand at someone I am engaged with currently? No. Would it be part of the fight to do so? Yes. So to accomplish this manuever I MUST flee and throw the spear before pulling my other weapon and engaging again. In reality would I 'RUN AWAY' only to run back and hurl my spear with a girlish scream and a limp wrist? Well, I certainly hope not I'd just wait for an openning and heave the damn thing at the guy before drawing another weapon and charging forward.

Have you ever watched a fight scene in a movie? Is it really only two people standing toe to toe and clanking swords against the other? HELL NO it ain't, how boring. They're all over the place, clashing and grappling, tackling and moving. Pretend you're standing in front of me with weapons wielded, and I have weapons wielded... We start to fight and it becomes apparent that you have more skill at getting past my defenses... what am I to do? Fear not, I'll tell you. I will use whatever I can to put the odds back on my side. I'll kick sand up into your face, I'll bite you, I'll swing chaotically until I finally bat your weapons aside long enough to lunge into you and tackle you to the ground before beating your face bloody.

Consider this: A champion fencer and a boxer meet in an alley. Give them both a foil... The fencer will skew the boxer... most likely with irritating pierces to his flesh. Will the boxer continue trying to play that game? Not unless he likes being a pin-cushion... no, he will brutalize the fencer by trying to get the fencer to play HIS game... By taking a shot to the arm perhaps but in that same move thrusting forward and smashing a fist into the fencer's gut, dropping his candy ass before annihilating him.

Can a man with a knife be beaten by an unarmed man? You better believe it. Man with knife thrusts forward and the unarmed man grabs the wrist, spins into the body and brutalizes, perhaps even twisting the own guy's knife into his belly.

Can we do that on Arm? Yup... It's called FLEE and change the game. As it stands an unarmed guy will be brutalized if just stands against a guy with a knife. Can the other guy follow if someone flees? Yes if you're RUNNING away, but if I'm not RUNNING away and I'm using flee only to represent trying a different tactic then you don't SEE me RUNNING ANYWHERE. This is where your strength as a roleplayer is tested. React intuitively. Is your death warrant signed? Well, if you were fighting alone against a half-giant or mul, then it was signed before you began if you're anything BUT a half-giant or mul yourself. Once again, your strength as a roleplayer is tested. No human or elf should willingly stand before a half-giant or mul alone... Perhaps a stubborn dwarf, but that's about all in my opinion.

Anyway, before I tangent too far on a rant... Start turning the focus on yourself and ask yourself why you are ONLY choosing to see this situation as the person running down the road and you standing there with weapons out before they come running back as IF they're going to charge into your weapons... Supposing you never look at this situation from another light let's pretend that the person DID run down the street, change their mind about fighting and run back... Are they running straight at you? Are they going to charge forward and roll into your legs? Are they going to leap off the wall? Broaden your minds.

All of what I've just said is a general statement about the topic of flee and combat... Only GENERAL. Now let's just talk Half-Giant. Heed the words of X-D and EvilRoeSlade, they speak the truth. The subject of Half-Giants changes this topic entirely. None of those considerations should even be spoken of... A Half-Giant should simply be able to grab you by the legs and swing you like a broken ragdoll into the ground, the walls, a nearby kank, himself... whatever the hell he feels like throwing you into. He should be able to tear a limb off someone if he actually grabs them and then beat them to death with it. A half-giant should be able to grab someone and kill them in ONE single hit. Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE F-ING HALF-GIANTS.  

Time to put our ROLEPLAYING caps on once again amigos. Pretend your thoughts aren't on your high agility and high sparring average per day compared to the notoriously low agility of half-giants.  Do you look at a half-giant as something you could cut apart because of their low stats compared to yours or do you look at EVERY half-giant as a 15 foot tall walking machine of death with the mind of an 8 year old? Something that could easily crush the head of any other humanoid in the world? Then ask yourself again why you would ever think of attempting to fight one alone. Take them for all their 'sid on a purchase, OF COURSE. Fight them alone? Stop smoking crack.

Allow me to conclude by saying that it's not subdue that needs to be adjusted, but merely people's attitudes towards roleplaying around half-giants.

[Forest Junkie]

Good post Echo.

[X-D]

Yup. nothing I can add.

[House Rising Sun]

I like to think of arm combat as less action and more simple drama. Sure, in the movies people jump around and balance on rails and stop to participate in some swashbuckling, with their weapons clashed. But really if, like echo said, I'm clearly the more skilled fighter and you attempt to throw sand in my face or bite me or swing wildly, I'll simply kill you. Lower your defenses to do anything, and I'll simply kill you. That's the way it works, and in Arm, that's fairly well represented. Sure, if you're a really agile, combat-hardened mofo and I'm just some punk coming at you with a knife, you'll disarm me and knock me out or grab my own knife. But that, again, is represented.

Also, weapon design plays a large part in who will win a one-on-one match, as much as skill does. A fencer against an unarmed opponent will kill him in less than a second flat, and a half-giant, yes, would smash the hell out of a guy with two curved blades with his big-ass hammer, unless he's really quick on his feet. But these things too are represented by the combat code. Much if not all of what echo mentioned is.

Except for retreating and "changing up" your tactics by coming back to the fight. The fact is, it's not easy at all to get away from somebody that's got a weapon pulled on you. The only reason people can in the first place, codewise and otherwise, is because they turn tail and haul ass without much physical indication that they'll ever come back. In a one-on-one situation, fleeing represents getting away from the fight.. that's what the function is for. If you come right back in, you really didn't flee. You just jumped away while your opponent inexplicably did nothing at all, much less attempted to chase you. You took advantage of the fact that he won't respond for a second to get in another shot, without chase or the fact that he's anticipating you. Whether you throw, subdue, backstab, or whatever, you're abusing the flee code to bypass the combat code's representation of certain fighting maneuvers.

[X-D]

Maybe it's just me, but when I see a fight going on between two people, I don't see them swinging swords at each other from fifteen feet away. Unless your Gandalf and that other guy playing dueling staves. that or the occasional whip or polearm duel, which would still be no easier to back away from than it would be to get away from close-combat weapons as the distance is still closed between the two weapon's lengths

We are not talking about two people, we are talking about a Half-giant and a non-half-giant.

A half-giant's arm is around 5-6' long, include a half-giant sized weapon and you get another 5-6 feet easy, then include the reach of the non-half-giant.  One of the reasons a half-giant should have an easier time hitting people, simply because of how hard it would be for them to get out of the way of his swings if they are close enough to hit him. I really want to see an armored human jump backwards out of the way of a half-giant sized maul being swept in from the side at waist height, lets see, that would be a good 6-9 foot backward jump and still maintane balance and attack back...snicker, right, there is some realism for ya, or even better, a human with a little bone sword parrying a weapon that weighs as much as him powered by something massing 1800+ pounds, snort. That maul is gonna sweep him, and his puny sword 30 feet into whatever happens to be nearby.
Someday tie a 200lbs log to a rope, hang it from a tree, take a baseball bat and stand next to the log, then have a few friends...or enemies actually, pull the log back as far as they can and let it go, and you try to deflect it with your bat, and here you are only talking 200lbs of inertia with gravity driving it, so, a more realistic contest would be to get a back-hoe, and have somebody swing the bucket at you while you try to knock it off course with your bat. Have fun, and Like malifaxis, I'll take responsibility for the cleaning of the genepool if anybody does this.

[Medena]

STOP seeing Flee as running a block down the road with your back turned. Use ROLEPLAY to not see it as such. Unfortunately the majority of this problem relies on the second party to reach deep into their ROLEPLAY ability and react not according to the brutal code but according to the situation and to FILL IN THE BLANKS left by it.  Flee is a versatile command that simply represents disengaging from combat OR some form of change in that combat, to be determined by the end response.

This is really the crux of the disagreement.  In my opinion, in an RPI mud the code is there to enhance and support RP and not, as you suggest, the other way round.  You argue that we ought to RP to support the Flee command.  

I realize that we work around the code in lots of situations.  For example, still on "flee" -- we agree in sparring scenarios to a convention that fleeing is merely disengaging and not running into the next room.  We can do this because it is a shared vision of the reality in those situations.  However, in a real fight there is no accepted convention, no shared vision, because only the attacker/fleer HAS the vision.  They have whatever vision necessary to justify their planned moves of flee, move back in, subdue.

I don't know what the solution is but I don't think it is to be found in maintaining that the non-fleer ought to read what is in the fleer's mind when actually all that they have seen is somebody fleeing west, returning, subduing them.

--Medena

[X-D]

Truthfully, I would love to see a disengage skill, yes, -skill-, some guilds would be better at it then others, and you should be able to link another command to it, maybe  disengage hide, disengage backstab, disengage throw, leave it to target the last opponent, have delay before and after on a fail leaving the person open like if they tried to pick something up during combat, even on success a possible parting shot should be possible, maybe if opponents skill is higher. on success autocombat does not re-engage even if hit for a set amount of time for the person who used the disengage skill, if both people type like "disengage nothing" within the timespan then combat is ended. This would leave flee in place as is, and make it so that if somebody did use flee and come back then you could yell twink and nobody would argue since there would be another option in place. Till such an option exists then we have to use flee.

[I Have Steel]

In response to Echo's post...

As my conversation with Lerl went...

If one is allowed to flee and come back, yadda yadda as a way of subduing mid fight, then there should be an accounted for advantage to the defender, as he is basically left helpless against the coming subdue, (no matter the race), because he is no longer in combat, thus hasn't the chance to strike out and possibly save his hide before the subdue takes place, which would likely happen in almost any situation.

You tell us to pave a way for the rping aspect, but that's also saying, 'Give yourself a disadvantage, so my unarmed attacker can have an advantage over you armed attacker, because we have to get around the code.'

And no, I'm not sacrificing my character in an attempt to make good rp out of a code vs code combat situation, nor do I doubt 99% of the players in Armag would.

---

And X-D, you can speak of the whole length and distance issue and the advantage it brings, but look at it this way...

If that smaller, more agile worker gets in PAST the head of that huge maul, and righ tup on that massive opponent, he's pretty much eliminated a good portion of that weapons danger, because this massive half giant is going to have to get himself backed up to make an effective swing. Same way with even a human sized warrior and a polearm. Get inside on it and they've lost a major amount of advantage on the attack.

Size is good and all, but it does have it's disadvantages. And it has it's many ways of effectively fighting against it.

I still stand by my thoughts in the end however, no matter how you try to dress it up with the excuse of rp over code, if subdue was meant to be used during combat, it would have been coded this way, just like the other combat skills such as kick and bash were.

And if the sake of rp is what still matters, once you do flee and come back in, have an emote about moving in to subdue, so that poor helpless character you just ran in and out on will have time to react like he should be able to. that whole, flee, back, subdue without a blink is just not right IMO.

[X-D]

If that smaller, more agile worker gets in PAST the head of that huge maul, and righ tup on that massive opponent, he's pretty much eliminated a good portion of that weapons danger, because this massive half giant is going to have to get himself backed up to make an effective swing. Same way with even a human sized warrior and a polearm. Get inside on it and they've lost a major amount of advantage on the attack.

At which point you are well within the half-giant's grasping range and he should be able to drop weapon right there and grab you, again, code wise, no can do without fleeing. Also, that massive weapon is still being held by a massive arm, so, even if the weapon cannot hit the arm still would, true, with drasticly reduced damage, but the tiny little human would not keep his feet.

[I Have Steel]

Yes indeed, but when that arm went to grasp the tiny human, he would surely be in range to defend with a good stab, or a hack at the coming arm, ect... Which isn't allowed by a flee/return/subdue, and the lack of a chance to defend by the mechanics of the subdue skill.

Think of it how the parry skill works.

A attacks, and B's parry skill has a chance to kick in.

A subdues, and B's free attack to stop, fail, lower % kicks in.

I wouldn't even care about the flee and come back deal, if it wasn't so unfair to the defender.

[X-D]

I've always been in favor of being able to hit a potential subduer if armed, though if the armed pc is human sized and the subduer is giant sized then the damage had better be MASSIVE before it cancels the subdue. Also, the more I think about it, the sillier the idea of a human sized char (halfling/elf/dwarf/halfelf/mantis/gith) Parrying a blow from a half-giant (bahamet/mekillot/gaj/silt horror) becomes. I mean come on now, A human somehow blocks/deflects the blow given by an animal who's leg is as big(bigger?) Then a half-giant?

[Quirk]

Can a man with a knife be beaten by an unarmed man? You better believe it. Man with knife thrusts forward and the unarmed man grabs the wrist, spins into the body and brutalizes, perhaps even twisting the own guy's knife into his belly.

If the man with the knife is trained, his being beaten by an unarmed man is extremely unlikely. Among other things, I practice a variant of jujitsu which places more emphasis on weapons defences and disarms than any other martial art I have heard of. It is tacitly acknowledged in the style that going up even against a smaller and untrained opponent who has a knife is a risky business even for the highly skilled. A trained opponent will not be overcome.

Getting a sufficiently secure grip on the wrist of someone holding a knife to be able to employ some technique that will culminate in parting them from that knife is not trivial even if they are not trying to be awkward. If they do not commit to the first stab, by moving in to intercept you are likely to leave yourself incredibly vulnerable.

A fencer and a boxer would be a highly unequal match were the fencer given a real rapier. Boxers are fast, but the tip of that fencer's foil moves almost an order of magnitude faster. There is a reason why men have taken to using weapons - they give a huge advantage over unarmed combat.

Fleeing then returning to subdue is code abuse, as (subdue's other failings apart) it's taking advantage of the lack of representation of range in the code. You've attempted to step within range of your foe's weapons, you've been hammered, you're again going to pass through that range to try to grapple - and because the code doesn't represent this, you can freely pass without being hit despite the fact that you were in combat just a second ago and your opponent will certainly have their guard up.

The "my character will do anything to even the odds, so I will too" is a very poor excuse to justify using the code to gain a completely unrealistic advantage while unarmed. Moreover I find the "ROLEPLAY" defence very weak when attempting to explain off code abuse - it's quite as bad or worse as those who power-emote the ability to beat up an ancient warrior that code-wise could destroy them, and then complain when that warrior reduces them into bloody pulp. If your view of the world is so unrealistic as to assume that unarmed people stand a serious chance against armed men trained in the weapons they're holding, that's your problem; don't complain that our minds aren't broad enough to encompass your ROLEPLAY because frankly, your ROLEPLAY is unrealistic and ridiculous.

Quirk

[Lerl]

"your ROLEPLAY is unrealistic and ridiculous."  ... "code abuse" ?!

Wow.  I'm glad you don't have access to my karma. If I played a dwarf whose focus is to drag off a halfling to marry, and tried to subdue the same halfling more than once I'd be doomed!  Heh... Ok, I'm being comical.  :roll:  
Rick