Murder. Corruption. Betrayal.

[Delirium]

Nobody said all PC guard roles should be taken out.

But I would not mind seeing them be cut down a little.

Many Noble Houses could do very well without a PC guardforce. NPCs can do the job just as well, and that would leave more players to fill other, more dynamic/interesting roles than Noble House Guard.

If you enjoy being a Noble House guard, then you can join one of the Houses that offers such a position to grungy PC commoners. But not all of the Noble Houses should hire PCs into their guardforce.

House Tor I can understand. House Borsail, and start sending them on slave raids. House Oash doesn't seem to strike me as needing PC guards. House Tenneshi doesn't either. House Winrothol does because they can go on slave raids as well.

The suggestion is to cut down on the roles, not remove them completely.

[Reiloth]

Agreed. Coming from experience, Noble House Guards really -don't- do a damned thing that they set out to do. Oh certaintly, Guard Duties. But that entails following a noble, who more often than not is not neccesarily a -high- ranking noble, to a tavern, and you get to stand around, "Shifting your weight" every so often, and if you're lucky, you sit with said noble.

Bullshit.

Arm is a multi-faceted gem, that allows for too many options for me to count on my ten fingers -and- ten toes. which inherently means i'm not going to type out examples for character ideas...But...Certaintly, it seems that the "trend" is for people to wander around independently for a few days, find the nearest recruiter for a Noble House or Merchant House, and become a Recruit, therefore making their lives SIMPLE as can be from then on in.

I agree with what was said earlier...Tuluk's cushyness stems from these easily accessible guard units. Take for example, Winrothol and Tenneshi. Obvious Rivals. Neither would willingly dissipate its PC guard force, without the other submitting, so its an OOC stalemate. Each house tries to burgeon its ranks with PC's, to make a statement. Why? I'm uncertain. Its some sort of pissing contest. But I digress...

The world of Armageddon doesn't quite fit up to its name at this point in time, in regards to Northern Politics (blech)...There is a lack of this supposed "behind the scenes" intrigue, simply because at least a fourth of the population, if not much more, consists of Noble House Guards. It should be called Farmageddon, as all I see in the North is, as said previously, recruiters farming for those people wearing grey hide boots and a rough canvas backpack.

I agree with Mansa that PC guards should be special app. If you really want to stand around, shifting your weight next to your favorite noble, do so, but it shouldn't be so widely accessible as to let every newbie have a cushy, paying job at the drop of a hat.

shrug.

[Carnage]

I agree with Mansa that PC guards should be special app. If you really want to stand around, shifting your weight next to your favorite noble, do so, but it shouldn't be so widely accessible as to let every newbie have a cushy, paying job at the drop of a hat.

If it's such a boring job where people do nothing then it doesn't need to be special app since players wouldn't want to join them.

My favorite character was a noble house guard. I've also spoken with a few people whose favorite characters were noble house guards as well.

[EvilRoeSlade]

According to Mansa, the only useful thing PC guards do is be pampered and do assassinations for their house. Supposedly PC guards shouldn't do that and only Rinthis should.

I do appreciate your non-arguements, since I don't have to argue against them.  If you're going to quote me as if for a rebuttal, then I don't see any point in rebutting against Mansa's arguement instead.

And I'm going to roll my eyes as there's been in-game examples.

Ahh, forgive me Carnage!  It must be alright because it happens in-game!  How I've misunderstood Armageddon!  Now excuse me while I walk into a tavern, kill somebody and loot them, and then flee to the rinth.  Considering it has happened IG in the past, there can't be anything wrong with it.

By definition, loyalty and expendebility don't go well together.  If you start pushing your guards into suicide missions, then before long you can expect muttering, desertion, and even betrayal once the rest of the guard force begins figuring out what's going on.  To add to the problem, if anybody glimpses your assassin, or captures or kills him, they now have a direct link to you as soon as somebody mentions that they saw that guy in the uniform of House X.

I could go on, but I won't.  I don't contest that there have been guard-assassins in the past, I don't even contest that the situations have been valid and ICly viable, even though I don't know that they have been.  But the way I see it is that telling your guards to go assassinate somebody is little more than a half-assed way to get them off their barstools when they're bored as shit and have begun logging in less.

After gathering information, it seems to me that there are clans up north that have succesfully dealt with their noble guard force, and if what they do works, then they should remain intact.  I haven't noticed as much success with House Tor in the south, but considering the enormous amount of potential it has for Scorpions, I wouldn't want to see it removed.  You act as if we suggest to make it so that players are never given the opportunity to play a guard, and nothing can be further from the truth.

But not every clan needs a PC guard force.  Some people will still want to play guards, and they should be given the opportunity.  But without special apping, they certainly don't require the option of playing a guard everywhere.  The minor shift in focus that we suggest would both streamline the playerbase of paramilitary types, and make guard positions that much more elusive.  Very positive effects.  Do you have any better ideas to accomplish those same effects?

[Forest Junkie]

My favorite character was a noble house guard. I've also spoken with a few people whose favorite characters were noble house guards as well.

Being a guard has its moments, I'll give you that. But, IMO, the overall experience of a guard is extremely boring.

a) As a guard, most nobles will send you on errands for not only them, but for nobles of other houses as well. I'm sorry, but I am not a fucking errand boy. I am a trained killer, with only one mission in mind: My noble's safety. It sort of dilutes the whole 'guard' premise, don't you think?

b) Idling for endless hours, waiting for SOMEONE to log on because you have already bored your arse off tidying up the barracks and doing your routine patrol.

c) Being sent on a 'special mission' to assassinate someone: guards are not assassins, they are guards. I find it hard to believe that a noble would take the chance of losing a highly trained guardsman just to get rid of some dick they don't like. This is where the street assassins come in. This way, they have no loss, and can pay cheap for an easy, efficient job. The economy keeps spinning, and everyone wins!

d) It's no fun being a guard unless you have companions, and for the Houses that do, they are only spreading the player-base thinner IMO.

There's some fat to chew on.

House Borsail, and start sending them on slave raids. House Oash doesn't seem to strike me as needing PC guards. House Tenneshi doesn't either. House Winrothol does because they can go on slave raids as well.

Winrothol and Borsail are highly unlikely to go on slave raids. And if they did it would be so rare thet they should be lumped with the other houses and have no PC guards. If those Pc's want to be slavers they should become independant slavers hehe.

[Dan]

Those are slave dealing houses Dead Newbie, it is what they do.

[Anonymous]

Delirium - The problem with some noble houses having guards and others not having guards is that it ends up skewing the balance of power regardless of whether or not one house has all the money and power.

Take Oash and Borsail.  If Borsail had their guards removed, and Oash didn't, if trouble breaks out between the clans, who has the immediate advantage of being able to send a well-trained assassin after the other?  Oash.  Regardless of the fact that Borsail is richer and would therefore probably have a slightly better guard force.

If these clans are going to be kept around, the payscale needs to change.

Borsail Wyvern and Oash Elite should get paid far more than a Kuraci Regular or a Kadian Hunter.

The flat 300 sid a month thing for every merchant and noble house doesn't make sense.

If Borsail guards got 500 sid a month, it would make the reality that they are an esteemed house that much easier to play.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Winrothol may not engage in slave raids, but rest assured that the Borsail do.

Those are slave dealing houses Dead Newbie, it is what they do.

True. I just have never seen them go on a slave raid in my two years of playing. I have never played either house so for all I know they raid constantly. But I doubt it.

[Dan]

I was a bynner once, and they paid us to help them go out on a slave raid for arena games. It was quite a bit of fun.

[Anonymous]

If people think the world isn't harsh enough, then now is the time to start making PCs who can do that.  As has been pointed out a few times in this thread, there have been changes which might make it easier for PC on PC conflict without other things getting in the way.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

When the number of Houses are cut down, or, when the playerbase increases and all the spots allowed in each House are filled (assuming a cap is implemented), or, when recruiters become more callous about whom they allow into their ranks, the game will become harsher.

Until then, bear with the game as it is. Truthfully, it is not suffering overly. And as someone else said, if you want to see conflict, be conflict.

[John]

Something I find amusing is the players have increased to 50 on peak, almost double what it was when I first started playing. And yet only 2 extra Houses have opened up, yet everyone is complaining about the amount of Houses there are.

I don't think the fact there are more houses is the problem. I think the fact there are more people in said houses is the problem. It wasn't uncommon for there to be 1 or no people in any of the merchant houses or in some of the noble houses.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree, John. And actually, only one more House was really added to the number, for Fale was closed, and Winrothol and Tenneshi opened. So perhaps you are correct in your assumption.

But what I will say is that I don't think the game has become worse. I think there has been less harshness, but I think it primarily visual harshness. The subtle stuff has stepped up, and perhaps this is not as fun for everyone, but for those involved, it certianly is.

I fully support more IC harshness. Just make sure it remains IC, and does not become some greatly OOC solution. Zharia and Vendrya scripts come to mind as great solutions to add the natural and even artificial dangers to the world that should exist.

[Anonymous]

Something I find amusing is the players have increased to 50 on peak, almost double what it was when I first started playing. And yet only 2 extra Houses have opened up, yet everyone is complaining about the amount of Houses there are.

It's not just two new houses.  Each house has, or has had, aides, assistantes, guards and nobles.

Plus coded desert elf clans, plus the addition of the Tuluki militia, plus existing clans expanding into other areas necessitating an entirely new structure.

[Delirium]

I'm still of the opinion that Oash should be shut down and Tor and Borsail left open in the south. Two noble Houses in the north, two noble Houses in the south. Tor and Borsail have conflict, and Winrothol and Tenneshi have conflict, and the shutdown of Oash would open up more players for roles elsewhere.

I'm sure it's a very unpopular opinion, though, and I'm even more sure that it'll never happen.

As far as CRW's point, I can see what you're trying to say. Thing is, guards end up being used as aides/errand boys/quest seekers/assassins - in other words, everything but what being a guard for a noble house should actually entail.

So instead of using guards for what they weren't hired to do.. why not hire aides, craftsmen, and hunters (to complete those quests/gather materials), instead of guards? Guards should not be used for those things, their duties are to patrol the estate and protect the noble's person.  I'm not saying that the PC base of a noble house should be non-existant, I'm saying the position of Guard should not be a PC position, just as 'captain of the guard' or 'house overseer' is usually not a PC position - the only times a PC gets into those positions is if you specially apply. Which would still be an option for those people who REALLY want to roleplay patrolling the estate, standing next to a noble and scratching their ass, or warming a barstool.

Maybe a change like that would move people to actually contract out to outside assassins, which never seems to happen very often. Especially in Tuluk - that's what the whole licensed assassin system is set up for, practically, but instead, they just use their own noble house guards and the sap trying to make a living as an assassin up there is SOL.

[John]

I'm still of the opinion that Oash should be shut down

If you did you'd get rid of the single noble house that openly hires magickers. Get rid of Tor if you want to get rid of a House. After all, all they have is guards (which is of course not the case. That's the only thing that people publicly see).

[crymerci]

I'm of a slightly different opinion.  I don't think that House guards should necessarily only be guards.  On the contrary, I think that they are there primarily to serve their nobles, particularly in martial activities.  Of course they guard, but it only requires so many people to be bodyguards to the nobles, and security for the estates.  A house guard can also be a spy, or an entertainer, or an assassin, or an artist, or a physician, or a craftsperson, or any number of things.  And all of these other skills can be useful to nobles.

I think that many nobles houses have modeled their guard forces after the Byn, only more upper-crust.  Maybe that's the way it should be, I don't know.  But that's not how it has to be, in every case.

Consider Gurney Halleck from Dune as an example of a House guard who is not just a mute piece of meat.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oash is not, or was not the last time I knew, the only Southern House which openly hires magickers. Tor also had its stash of elementalists.

[Ralin]

Just my small, minute, unimportant opinion here, but why close a house around players ears if they happen to be enjoying what they do? I'd personally be pissed if a house was closed while I'm part of it, especially in the situation I am now where I've found a house that's more active than any other place I've been outside the Byn. And to be honest, the guards for the house I play in are all NPC, unless a PC is requested to do the job. And that rarely happens, usually only long enough to escort the noble from point A to point B, then it's back to your normal business. I haven't played this game long enough to really be of any help toward the actual discussion, but I just wanted to put my opinion on it.

[crymerci]

Tor only openly hires Krathi (I don't think that's IC-sensitive info), and even then only a small number of them.  They might use other magickers on a contract basis, but they are not clanned, accepted employees of the House.

[X-D]

I'm only going to comment on hiring practices.

On my last house officer I had to almost fight the nobles (pc and NPC)      To  -not- hire people, I know why they wanted to hire every loose pc in the game, because it takes 20 pc's to get 1 lasting guard.

My char on the other hand was using discriminating hiring practices, he was perfectly willing to turn people he saw as unfit away (normaly pointing them at the other noble house, you all can thank me for that ragtag bunch) And multiple times let people go at the end of the "recruit" phase. And let me tell you, that was often a fight too.

So, I guess what I'm saying is I agree with prior posters here that say it is sad that a noble or officer of the the house will just grab up any warm body to fill the ranks, this is unrealistic to me.

I remember much farther back when I had a Tor LT, at the time the hiring practice was to only hire out of the byn, this seemed silly to me, why would the grand martial house Tor hire from some nasty merc group's castoffs? So, for his lifetime he changed that, with the help of the house nobles and senior advisor Riandra, to training thier own guards after what was probly the longest interview process of any house at the time.

I think it is up to the houses to be more picky, I don't think guards should be removed or special app, but the players of the nobles and officers of the houses should be more prideful of the house and settle only for the best.

[John]

I'm of a slightly different opinion.  I don't think that House guards should necessarily only be guards.  On the contrary, I think that they are there primarily to serve their nobles, particularly in martial activities.  Of course they guard, but it only requires so many people to be bodyguards to the nobles, and security for the estates.

I agree on that. Guards can be military advisers, scouters, experts in blending in with the seedier places (such as Red Storm), bounty hunters, etc, etc. However the problem is it takes a long time for a guard to become trustworthy and skilled. And by that stage they're well known among the PCs so using them for scouting other cities in disguise isn't possible. Why? Because the chance of someone using their OOC knowledge about a character increases dramatically. Yes, that sounds like we're catering to the lowest denominator, but that's what an Imm said to me one time.

One way for House guards to have more to do, is for characters not to become House guards the second they join the game. Live. Become good at combat. THEN when you join a clan you will have proved yourself. Now how can you do that? Fucked if I know

The Merchant Houses can also interact with the Noble Houses more. I said this in IRC and I think it's a good idea. I think the possibility for deals to be made could be pretty big. Has Kadius found a new source of ivory that is in the middle of Desert Elf territory, they can go to Tor to help them guard an outpost. Or go to Borsail and get them to enslave the tribe, or go to one of the northern Houses for reason whatever *knows nothing about those stinking northerners*

Kurac could also do it. Go to any of the Noble Houses and get them to help them get rid of the Mantis. This wouldn't make the Noble Houses mercenaries though. The difference would be they're doing it for mutual benefit. You can't simply say "here's some 'sid." There'd have to be a long-time benefit (such as a strong Tor prescence in Luir's Outpost to defend Allanak or a strong Borsail prescence in Luir's to go get slaves).

A house guard can also be a spy, or an entertainer, or an assassin, or an artist, or a physician, or a craftsperson

With the exception of physician and assassin (as long as they're hired for that purpose and guarding is a front) that's where I draw the line for the Upper Tier Noble Houses (which is all that's open for the players).

Yes, Dune had a guard who was an entertainer. But Dune isn't Zalanthas and Atreides certainly isn't Upper Tier (IMO). The lesser Houses, possibly. The Merchant Houses, sure. Upper Noble Houses, definitely not (IMO).

[Lasakar]

... Especially in Tuluk - that's what the whole licensed assassin system is set up for, practically, but instead, they just use their own noble house guards and the sap trying to make a living as an assassin up there is SOL.

Licensed assassin system? Is the real name of Tuluk maybe
Ankh-Morpork and the sorcerer-king is called Vetinari? Damm! I guessed it. Another Discworld MUD...