Murder. Corruption. Betrayal.

[EvilRoeSlade]

People think that the game is less harsh because there are more clanned characters?

I'm not advocating less people in clans.  If we were to say that House Borsail and Oash couldn't recruit a guard force, it would just mean that people would join other clans that are oriented toward paramilitary.  Maybe some would join the T'zai Byn, or the militia, both of which need high numbers.  The T'zai Byn always needs more grunts to toss into the meat grinder, and the militia always needs more grunts to pay a low wage and then sending them about collecting bribes so that they don't starve to death.  Hopefully, some of these dislocated persons will join Tor, and Tor will finally be allowed to undertake missions that were just too ambitious at their nigh-constant diminutive playerbase.

And, a year or more ago, we were hoping for a larger playerbase so we could fill up more of the houses.

I doubt we'll ever be able to fill up all the houses.  Why not settle for a more realistic goal?

So, does this mean that having more players has made the game less harsh?

You're a philosipher talking to a pragmatist.  I'll let somebody else respond to that if they care to.

[Krath]

Maybe I am a bit confused but you are essentially trying to limit the RP options of both the city states and the players?

If this does come off as a Flame I apologize, sometimes my post may, but I do not wish it so.

So what there are hundres of guards in the game. Not every player enjoys playing an independent or a delf or mul defiler from the uber levels of Nessalin's keep. How is this hurting the enviroment? Because they are well more than enough guards in the game people think they have no uses? I played a leader role of a guard unit, and regardless of what people say within the clan, there is ALWAYS something going on in the background to keep the PCs in the clans busy. If a PC leader has you start training extensively and does not tell you why, you can bet your ass off that coming up will be a badass rp where you will need to be in your prime shape or if your PC leader tells you to go to the bar and meet people, hey, maybe they are trying to set up some kind of spy network to find out information or their rival house. However, what it comes down to in my eyes is this...There is absolutely NO reason you should limit how many Pcs can go in each clan, UNLESS it is a possible ISO or small tribe. All the Noble houses hire Hundreds, possible THOUSANDS of employees so how is it realistic to say, ok make a cap of two pc guards, one aide, and one noble?

I Am by no means the greatest PC leader, nor would I consider myself a "good" one. But I have to agree with Venomz, we need more PCs to Lead, step up and be aggressive about stuff.  Fuck, I dunno, this is a living breathing thing, and we control it's course ICLY. If we need more people recruit, but just because we do not have enough PCs to be in a clan that you might currently be in to make it enjoyable, do not suggest limiting other clans because more people have fun and enjoy playing those kind of characters.

It''s early, If I upset any of you too bad, it is my opinion, if this came off as a flame, then you all need to lighten up.

[spawnloser]

Currently playing someone in a leadership position, I can understand both sides of this argument.  It would be nice to have all the guards necessary to beat up all the guards in any other House when I think that they should be...but that isn't really realistic.  I also don't want to be everyone's entertainment supervisor...which I sometimes feel like.  It kinda sucks that, by all rights, I should only be hiring people that are up to certain skills...but if I don't hire them as a completely useless newb, someone else will and there will be noone left for me to hire.  I hire people that are available to keep a group of people that can entertain each other as much as possible, but I can't do that if there is noone to recruit.  I mean...I'm left with a dilemna.  I don't want to hire complete feebs, but I have to...I mean, both for the reason that otherwise there would be noone and because someone being a newbie player in and of itself should not further penalize them, really.

On the other hand...I really like the idea of people having to fight for getting hired.  I'll think of the Marquis and Door every time.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

But I have to agree with Venomz, we need more PCs to Lead, step up and be aggressive about stuff  .....  do not suggest limiting other clans because more people have fun and enjoy playing those kind of characters.

Did you just agree with me and then disagree with me in the same sentence? Damn, that was slick.  :lol:

Here is my reasoning. If we had a cap on players in a House, it would promote competition. It would also promote better selection among and by leaders. You might see some assassinations simply because someone is hunting a spot in the House of Gangstaz. You'd see more political moves, more backtalk, more reputation muddling. You'd see folks bringing those commoner Houses to life. You'd see more PC organizations, more independant hunters, more independant merchants. In short, I think you'd see more life.

I think it would be good for the game. But, of course, I may not be right.

[JollyGreenGiant]

There's a huge problem with putting a cap on how many players you can have at a time.  For arguments sake, let's say we put a cap of 3 warriors in clan X.  So the leader goes and hires 3 people who all play at about the same time.  Suddenly, Hire #1's schedule changes, and while he still plays about 10 hours a week, everyone else in the clan sees him maybe 1 hour a week.  Then the leader's schedule changes, and Hire #3 is gone for a RL week due to OOC things and doesn't tell anyone.  Hire #2 logs in and sees that no one is around, assumes the clan is dead, and logs in for an hour a week, if that.   But all 3 hires are technically "alive", so the leader can't hire anyone else.

Ok, you propose, let's say we can't hire more than 3 active PCs, and we'll define active as "plays for at least 7 hours a week."  Well, the leader never sees his original hires anymore, and so assumes that his people are all gone, hires three more players.  Suddenly, Hire #3 starts logging in again, and Hire #2 is happy now that there are more people, so suddenly the clan has 5 active members, plus Hire #1 out there who is "active" but not seen by anyone else.  The leader of clan Y, who also has a hiring cap of 3, may now commence screaming foul because clan X has 6 active PCs...

It breaks down.  You can't put a hard cap on a clan size, because you essentially destroy the flexibility that makes the clan playable in the first place.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I wasn't suggesting a cap as of now. Right now, I agree that it would be inconvienent. Also, the cap was not to be so small. I would suggest 8 warriors/guard force, 2 nobles, 3 aides, and 2 other roles for whereever. It would only apply to Noble Houses, as well.

In short, the cap would be at 15 for each house. From experience, I know this is a good number. The House I played in actually had more players than that. There were 10 gaurds, 2 nobles, at least 3 aides.

This would only work once there are more players. So, like I said, go get us some players. I'm on the warpath.

[JollyGreenGiant]

It's not really the size of the cap that matters, it's the flow of people.  How do you know when you have 8 guards?  You don't always know when someone has died, let alone stored their character, changed schedules, or just isn't logging in at the moment.  In a perfect world, the clan leaders would know who is in the clan, when they play, and when they die/store/have RL stuff to do.  In the real world, not even the Imms always know where people are.

Ideally speaking, a cap sounds like a pretty good idea.  Practically speaking, it's either unfair or impossible to implement.

[mansa]

I think the most promising thing about this discussion so far is this:  Leaders of Noble Houses, be selective with who you hire.

And that's _my_ feelings and my opinion on this matter.

[Forest Junkie]

It's not really the size of the cap that matters, it's the flow of people.  How do you know when you have 8 guards?  You don't always know when someone has died, let alone stored their character, changed schedules, or just isn't logging in at the moment.

1) You know you have eight guards when the immortal posts it on the clan board, or when the guards introduce themselves on a thread.

2) You will know someone has died when they email the clan immortal and remove themselves from the clan board.

3) You will know if someone has stored their pc because <see above>.

4) You will know if someone has changed schedules, because they will more than likely most it upon the clan board. <same as above>

Granted, nothing is perfect, and there may arise a time when one of the above possibilities does not happen. But seriously, eight guards sounds like a VERY fair cap, IMO.

[My 2 sids]

I have always said I like the cap idea.  

 Why? Because it makes the whole system fair, and that makes the system work.  An example of this theory can be found on almost every college campus:  the (oh-my-gwd-they-are-so-cool) Greeks!  (that's Greeks as in frats and sororities) Many times the campus will have rules about rushing new members, including putting a cap on numbers.

What a cap on houses will do is put the focus on the bigger picture, having people join the clans/houses in the first place.  Maybe Borsail is full, but Oash is accepting applications.  Because of this, every open house is almost guaranteed to not have one active pc or so many pcs people have nothing to do but sit around.

Caps basically spread out the clan/house PC population.  The player population will take notice more if they see many different houses uniforms than just a large blob of uniform from one house.  Caps ensure that we would have support to keep other houses open.  Part of the fun of joining a house is having other houses with which to compete.  Having all one's buddies in one house that have no only virtual people with which to compete is no fun, as would be if there was only one pc in an otherwise virtual house, and every other PC is in a different house.  

Finally, keep in mind the more competition there is and the more pc run plots, the more players will see the fun and want their PCs in that fun... numbers in all the houses would grow.

[Krath]

An example of this theory can be found on almost every college campus:  the (oh-my-gwd-they-are-so-cool) Greeks!  (that's Greeks as in frats and sororities) Many times the campus will have rules about rushing new members, including putting a cap on numbers.

Hmm..Damn, I never looked at like that. Being in a fraternity myself, I can understand where you all are coming from. My only issue would be how do you determine the cap number per house so they it is enjoyable and there will 75% of the time be someone on to RP with. If the immortals could agree on a set number which they and the players would agree with as fair, I will support the idea wholeheartidly.

[jmordetsky]

I like the cap. The problem there is you could have 8 guards that log on once a month. You're at your quota, but most of you still have no one to play with.

I think being a house hire should be a special app.... (sort of)....in that, you have to tell the imms that you will "try" to play X number of hours per week after accepting recruitship.

Reaping the advantages that come with being in a clan comes a responsibility to the other players in the clan. To me, it carries almost as much responsibility as the players who play the house leaders.

[X-D]

Quoting myself:

I think it is up to the houses to be more picky, I don't think guards should be removed or special app, but the players of the nobles and officers of the houses should be more prideful of the house and settle only for the best.

And Mansa:

I think the most promising thing about this discussion so far is this: Leaders of Noble Houses, be selective with who you hire.

Why make those quotes, because, if the above was true there would be no need for caps.

And I'm strongly against caps for any house, period. Many reasons, not all of which am I going to give, but a very good one is play times and frequency, the clan I am currently in has a reasonable number of players, at least 15, I see maybe 4 on a regular basis, I know another 3 play regular but do to being on the other side of the world, I only get to interact with them if either they decide to get up and start playing around 4am thier time or if I happen to have a day off.
The same applies to them.

[Krath]

I think during the Recruiting and trail phase of your guard career all of that can be determined. Also, on the GDB's for each of the clans, if you were going to be inactive for some long amount of time, you could write a note and let the other people within your clan aware of your situiation, allowing them to hire another person in your absense. However, When I say leave of abense I mean over a 1-2 OOC month peroid, not just like two weeks or such.

Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?

[Tamarin]

The problem, I think, with limiting the number of recruits a clan takes in, is many people just brush over the mud once, somehow get into a clan, and then never come back.  I've had this happen to me a few times, and its a pain in the ass.  The alternative is to seek out the really obvious players of this game who actually...well...play.  But unfortunately, they represent a fairly small proportion of the total playerbase.  And they seem to be fairly focused on their own goals for the most part, so you aren't going to get enough to fill up the ranks of your guard unit.

[My 2 sids]

People seem to think they need something huge to be afraid of, but then what really drives the over all atmosphere are the little things.  A templar walking beside you, a superior tripping over you, waiting to see what happens when your employer finds you drunk/skipping work/jailed, the hot breath of an enemy whispering in your ear... these are the details that make up the overall atmosphere in game.  The biggest problem I see happening is that the small details, small moments aren't happening anymore; that's why the game's tone seems less harsh.  To bring back the elements of an over-all harsh tone to the game, the following is some of what needs to happen.

People need to be willing to take more chances. Those PCs who are in houses or "political" pcs in any way... need to take more chances.  I realize gathering information, waiting for responses and people to log in, and developing complicated plotlines takes time... but come on!  There is an issue of playability here.  –Some- of the people in houses... in political ties... -should- mess up, take chances, not think of every little reaction.  If you're drunk and feel insulted by another house... don't think that you're character is capable of restraining that temptation to haul off and smack the guy!  If you don't flat out –know- someone has connections, then feel free to insult, beat, abuse, fine, etc. the person you –know- is lower on the social latter than you.  If your character's enemy walks in... don't always think you're going to react perfectly content... not everyone is able to lie through their teeth every single time!  

The flip side to taking small risks... is to keep the risks and effects small–small-.  Let the punishments and effects fit the risks and crime!  Is a noble –really- going to care that much that his lowly servant (who he might not even know) got looked at weird?  Should someone take –personal- offence when an elf steals 10 sids?  Is anyone really going to remember a bar fight or a jail sentence eight months afterwards?  Let things drop.  Two people get into a bar fight or insult each other... beat em both and call it a day!  Should an employer take personal offence when someone complains about their employee?  Maybe... or maybe they should just punish their employee and be done with the whole thing.

Part of the game is not how people react to your character... but how your character reacts!  Know your character's place!  People can't force players (and thus their characters) to feel anything... don't expect to get the feeling of a "harsh and scary world" when your character isn't allowed to feel afraid!  Don't bitch about not feeling the "harshness" of the world when your half-elf refuses to be scared of pissing someone off.  Don't bitch about not feeling the "harshness" of the game, when your merchant is being robbed!  Don't make excuses of "ooc commitments" or "don't play my character" and expect to have someone yell at you for missing a meeting or saying you missed a spot cleaning.  

The code can only have so much affect on the tone of the game... the rest is up to role-play... the rest is up to the players.

[Just somebody]

I wonder if My 2 sids' char ran from a half-giant last night.

But who ever did knows at least one other player agrees with My 2 sids post.

[Ix Machina]

The problem, I think, with limiting the number of recruits a clan takes in, is many people just brush over the mud once, somehow get into a clan, and then never come back...

This is another reason why employers (especially noble and merchant house guards/hunters) need to be much more selective when hiring. You shouldn't hire because you're afraid that the last five people you hired aren't ever going to log in again, or because noble house X has more guards, or you need warm bodies (that's what the byn is for), but you hire knowing the person you're going to invest the time to hire/feed/clothe is going to stick around and that they actually have something to do. If you make hiring MORE selective, i.e. based on ic experience within the game, someone who hounds after your recruiter for weeks asking if they'd made a decision on hiring yet, someone who goes after YOU to get hired, not just because they're picked from a bar wearing newbie clothing, then chances are they're willing to make the effort to stick around and be an active part of the clan.

[sarahjc]

I agree and disagree with Ix. Heh..

With players that seem to know the game and don't look like they just stepped off the Newb' ship I am a bit more selective. I do recruit and -actively- at that, but I will not beg a character to join my house. If you look shady, or seem to be cocky.. forget it. Honestly, I look at it as my house has the best there is to offer, and if I have to convince you of that for more that a few conversation passes, then I'm not going to bother.  And that is with any house that I have had the joy of recruiting for. Because if a person doesn't want to be recruited OOC, they will most likely not stay IC..

Now as for Newbies I am always happy to scoop them up right from the get go, and will go out of my way to do so should they fit the bill of what I am looking for. (This is asuming that they are not a mutant, snippity, cocky, bastard that thinks they should rule the city. The reasons stated below are OOC, but I always consider the character IC first and formost..) Why??

1. It helps them adapt to the game a bit more easily.
2. I think most complete newbs base if they are going to play the game within the first 1-3 days of playing
3. They can ask lots of questions in a private setting where it does not disrupt other players.
4. A sense of belonging for the Newbie. I know that when I first starting playing all not too long ago, I was overwhelmed and basically afraid to Rp with anyone, that I might make a mistake or do something stupid. A very good role-player from a noble house scooped me up and gave me a job.  And with a few house players at my side, I was able to come out of my shell and learned to love the game. A few of my characters were solo's after that. Some even twinkish as I did not full grasp the concept of the game right away.. But it was that first experience that kept me staying on, and eventually I got it..

[Tamarin]

The problem, I think, with limiting the number of recruits a clan takes in, is many people just brush over the mud once, somehow get into a clan, and then never come back...

This is another reason why employers (especially noble and merchant house guards/hunters) need to be much more selective when hiring. You shouldn't hire because you're afraid that the last five people you hired aren't ever going to log in again, or because noble house X has more guards, or you need warm bodies (that's what the byn is for), but you hire knowing the person you're going to invest the time to hire/feed/clothe is going to stick around and that they actually have something to do. If you make hiring MORE selective, i.e. based on ic experience within the game, someone who hounds after your recruiter for weeks asking if they'd made a decision on hiring yet, someone who goes after YOU to get hired, not just because they're picked from a bar wearing newbie clothing, then chances are they're willing to make the effort to stick around and be an active part of the clan.

I couldn't chop it down...its all good stuff.

I agree with all of this, but the problem is, the experienced players who have good RP skills and who play a lot, are less likely to take these jobs, because they know there are so many things out there.  They know that, in reality, it is highly possible they will get stuck in a bland position with nothing to do.  Furthermore, they probably won't be happy with the meager "sometimes I get paid on time 300 sid a month wages", because there are definitely better things out there.  Perhaps the rewards should be upped to those who demonstrate a high quality and quantity of RP, trustworthiness, playtime, etc.  Maybe this is already the case, but I've seen instances where it isn't.

[Bakha]

Continuing with the subthread of Ix, sara and uberjazz:

I commend leader types on their efforts to get obvious newbies involved in the game from the get go. However, you can just as easily give them a single task to do for a set amount of 'sid. If they never show up again, then you haven't lost anything. If they do show up again, after completing that task and getting some 'sid, then they've accomplished something ingame, hopefully had some fun, learned a few things, and shown that they might actually stick around long enough to hire on as a fulltime employee. It also lets you see if your playing times are going to generally conincide with the newbie. If they never see you again, no harm done. They can go on to find employment in a clan that better suits their playing times. Maybe someday they'll complete their task, but regardless they've been given some purpose, if only temporarily.

Some examples of tasks and their advantages for the newbie:
*Acquire an item: you could have them get a specific herb, which lets them find out about herbs. Let them get an item that only certain shops carry, which makes them search around and come to understand and explore the different merchants.

*Deliver a message: It doesn't have to be anything major or sensitive. Just some message to another PC. This forces them to go out and interact with other PCs, which is likely a good thing for a newbie.

*Gather information: Just tell them to report anything of interest to you about whatever subject.  This also forces them to interact and be around other PCs. But now they're not just sitting there doing nothing, they've got a reason for being there.

*Any other easily performed task that lets them learn something and gives them purpose.

After giving them a task or two that they succesfully accomplish, then it might be time to "hire" them on a probationary period. Don't give them full clanning, but let them know that if they keep up the good work, then they might have a position that gives food, water, and shelter. Maybe give them a little bit extra starting coin at this point and to help them out while they're not garnering full pay. If at this point they dissapear, you're only out a little bit of coin. It's better than putting them on your payroll and taking up a "spot" on your roster for someone that you'll never see again.

It's important at this time to continue to give them tasks and work with them. I've lost recruits quite often at this stage as they become drawn to other clans due to feeling abandoned by you, the leader. Even if it's just setting up weekly ingame reports and continuing to give them the above type of tasks, just keep giving them some kind of purpose and making them feel a part of something. Rewarding them with coin for services rendered is also a good idea. You might find out, at this point, that they'd work out better as an undercover operative/informant outside of your organization and choose to not take them on full time. It's basically a good time to feel out the employee and decide how they'll fit into your organization.

If after a RL month or so (ingame year) they're still performing well, sticking around, and playing at the same time as you, then it might be time to move on to bringing them fully onboard in your clan.

Anyway, that's my "Guide to Nurturing Newbies". There are definitely other people that are better recruiters and clan leaders than I was when I played, but those were some of the techniques that worked for me.

[Ix Machina]

I just want to chime in to Bakha's post that this is what happened to me when I first began on Arm. While I had a character that worked with different clans or interacted with them, or did odd-jobs to earn a little money, I was never actually clanned, as getting into a clan (at least it seemed that way) was fairly difficult.

So for my first bunch of characters, the first halves or longer of their lives was just going out and doing stuff solo. It was extremely hard to scrape by, but I wasn't doing anything that any other person wasn't doing as most people that I was interacting with were the same as me.. independant solo or independant groups. Occassionally, one of the people in these independant groups would find a job working for a noble house or merchant house, but most of the time its because they'd made a contact in them. Not because the merchant/noble houses were actively recruiting.

This also made people who were able to garner such a position for themselves a LOT more respected than people playing in the same types of positions now. Mostly because these positions weren't thrown out to everyone.

You don't have to clan someone to hire them, but it does become unbalanced when you're a person who does the recruiting for a clan, and is trying to do what Bakha suggested, which is mainly to hire newbies or new characters looking for a job to go and do the odd jobs you're making your loyal and trusted legion of guards to do besides guarding. Things like making deliveries, keeping eyes out, paying people for language lessons in allundean/mirrukim/bendune/anyar/whatever, bringing in supplies (lots of opportunity for independent hunters/rangers/warrior types there), and then someone else scoops them up because they're offering something you're not, namely free food/water/armor/storage. Not because they particularly desire that specific person, but because they want warm bodies and that person doesn't have a 'real' job.

Just because you hire selectively, doesn't mean you can't offer jobs to people, but it does mean you're looking very hard at who you want to offer free food/armor/water/storage/perks to, and that position itself becomes valuable and worthy of retaining. The world of Zalanthas is so harsh because it isn't a place where there are charity cases, and it was never supposed to be a place where everyone walked around in silks and sipped tea with their pinkies out. It IS supposed to be a harsh world (even in cities) where the resources of water, food and shelter become extremely scarce and are fought over and there should be stiff competition for that cushy job working for Lord Fancypants and not just getting 200 sid a month but food, water and shelter as well.

And in keeping with the original question that this thread posed, the current environment in the cities is less harsh because it has lost this feel. Not necessarily a loss of 'scariness', but a feel that water, food and resources are totally plentiful and sid is thrown out to the unwashed masses so they can clothe themselves in silks.

Just something to think about, and again, wholly my personal opinion. But for those recruiters who DO manage to be extremely picky and selective, and aren't afraid to turn people away, or help newbies in other ways than just giving them a clanned position in a role they may end up deciding they really didn't want after all, I have nothing but respect for you.

[My 2 sids]

Now as for Newbies I am always happy to scoop them up right from the get go, and will go out of my way to do so should they fit the bill of what I am looking for. (This is asuming that they are not a mutant, snippity, cocky, bastard that thinks they should rule the city. The reasons stated below are OOC, but I always consider the character IC first and formost..) Why??

1. It helps them adapt to the game a bit more easily.
2. I think most complete newbs base if they are going to play the game within the first 1-3 days of playing
3. They can ask lots of questions in a private setting where it does not disrupt other players.
4. A sense of belonging for the Newbie. I know that when I first starting playing all not too long ago, I was overwhelmed and basically afraid to Rp with anyone, that I might make a mistake or do something stupid. A very good role-player from a noble house scooped me up and gave me a job.  And with a few house players at my side, I was able to come out of my shell and learned to love the game. A few of my characters were solo's after that. Some even twinkish as I did not full grasp the concept of the game right away.. But it was that first experience that kept me staying on, and eventually I got it..

YES YES YES!!!

*Deliver a message: It doesn't have to be anything major or sensitive. Just some message to another PC. This forces them to go out and interact with other PCs, which is likely a good thing for a newbie.
*Any other easily performed task that lets them learn something and gives them purpose.

I suppose these would work, provided the character understands if these tasks will or will not lead to clan work.  I know I sure didn't understand what was expected of me my first character.  I didn't know to move on when my new employer died... I didn't know how long the prosses took to get hired!

*Acquire an item: you could have them get a specific herb, which lets them find out about herbs. Let them get an item that only certain shops carry, which makes them search around and come to understand and explore the different merchants.

If the player doesn't know how to do something... the character won't.  If the character becomes frustrated... the new player will become frustrated.  Keep tasks simple AND ones they can easily preform.  Heck, buy travel cakes from them.  Let them clean your gear.  Let them annouce your name or Way someone.  Something the PLAYER knows how to do.

*Gather information: Just tell them to report anything of interest to you about whatever subject. This also forces them to interact and be around other PCs. But now they're not just sitting there doing nothing, they've got a reason for being there.

This is by FAR the WORST job in game.  This is not a task... because it cannot be completed.  If you do assign this task to a newbie at least let them use information from the rumor boards.  My big beef with this concept, I stated on my last post... for all the amount of time put into "information gathering" little happens.  A game full of spies isn't going to be "harsh", it isn't going to produce plotlines, and it is not going to be fun.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Something that I keep seeing as an example of how bad the cap idea is, is the fact that newbies and folks in odd time-zones might be pressed to find work. Perhaps everyone missed the suggestion that having a cap would encourage those independant clans. Remember, a lot of the clans that are in the game currently, started as independant clans. With limited positions available, you can be assured that players will begin to rise to the occassion, thus birthing those commoner clans.

[Quirk]

*Gather information: Just tell them to report anything of interest to you about whatever subject. This also forces them to interact and be around other PCs. But now they're not just sitting there doing nothing, they've got a reason for being there.

This is by FAR the WORST job in game.  This is not a task... because it cannot be completed.  If you do assign this task to a newbie at least let them use information from the rumor boards.  My big beef with this concept, I stated on my last post... for all the amount of time put into "information gathering" little happens.  A game full of spies isn't going to be "harsh", it isn't going to produce plotlines, and it is not going to be fun.

I'm afraid I'd have to entirely disagree with you on that last line. An effective spy keeps his or her paymasters well informed on the schemes of other movers and shakers, thereby stretching the effects of others' plots much further than they would have gone otherwise and frequently bestirring said paymasters into action. What a spy discovers may galvanise an entire House and provide RP for months. As far as harshness goes, spies are not infrequently called on to perform assassinations, to illictly acquire stolen or contraband goods and in general to have dealings with the criminal element - a far far harsher mode of living than your House guards and aides have to deal with, and far harsher on a PC vs PC basis than hunters or mercenaries. Spying can be incredibly good fun, too, piecing together the many strands of other people's lies and trying to figure out what really is happening.

I would agree though that spying fulltime isn't the best job for a newbie - success demands a degree of finesse and knowledge of the game world that most new players simply don't have yet. Getting them to keep their ears open in their spare time would probably work rather better - as long as it isn't their sole task, they won't get overly frustrated.

Quirk