Murder. Corruption. Betrayal.

[Kalden]

All I want is the harsh 'Nakki Templars again, and that's enough Murder, Corruption and Betrayal for me.

I don't see a problem there... I've been very impressed by the Allanak Templarate lately. One Templar in particular, rather. Admittedly, I didn't spend much time in 'nak back in the day.

In fairness, I haven't been to Allanak in a while

Maybe that says it all?

A few months back the code was changed so we'd need to actually take water and food with us when we go hunting outside. That's more of the harshness I prefer

Eh? I agree with the realism, but where's the fun in dying from dehydration? How is that harshness "fun"?


I've been mugged in the streets of 'nak, executed in the arena, assassinated with poison, and stripped naked in the past few months... I think harshness is certainly there. What I remember when I started was stepping outside the gate to be charged by mindlessly PKing "hunters". Heh. That was thrilling, but it really wasn't much for RP.

What I'd really like to see is a more flexible crime code. The crime code right now is terribly primitive. The militia takes the word of an VNPC %100, in an instant, but they blow off PCs. The guards are overly pumped up. A high status, wealthy person can't have an upstart beaten, even if the offender spits in their face. It'd be nice to see more muggers, more spice-dealers, more local gangs, even human ones, but as it is, the crime code restricts that. House guards are mostly useless. A flexible, intricate crime code would be awesome.

[John]

Eh? I agree with the realism, but where's the fun in dying from dehydration? How is that harshness "fun"?

Yeah, it can be boring. But you CAN end the boredom anytime you want by a simple "quit" button It can be fun, playing a delirious person, praying to every God on the planet that a PC comes and finds you (if your close to the city). Be fearful of an animal coming up and eating you. But the main point is to be scared of getting to that point and desperately trying not too. That might mean you have to hock off your shirt. Or not sit on top of a mountain of obsidian and spend it, etc, etc

[My 2 sids]

My thinking is that the player base has grown up and matured a bit more than a simple hack and slash game (even if the hack and slash parts of flat out killing people were really well role-played out).  Now characters are allowed to live long enough to push long and woven plotlines along, and that adds a lot.  

What I see happening sometimes on this board are people who take one little slice of the game and try to argue about it.  Instead, players should look at the bigger picture.  In the bigger picture, things have stayed harsh and just as deadly.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Senseless slaughtering has nothing to do with it, the ability to create a fearful mood does. A certain Red Robe a while back instilled fear and I can say that I never saw him kill anyone in public, yet when he walked into the room, people reacted, people fled, people kissed ass.

Now you begin to make more sense.  Red Robes are intended to be far scarier than blue-robes, and I'd question one that didn't make people flinch whenever she appeared in public.  However!  Your last post seemed to say something far different.  A blue-robe that's making people leave the city is going too far.  If one ICly incompotent blue-robe does it occasionally, I suppose that's unavoidable, but if you want to see more of that, as you stated that you did, then I say you're insane.  Where would it leave us?  With nothing besides scary templars in Allanak, billowing their robes to appear larger than they really are?  If somebody wants to play a templar that isn't doing their job right, that's there perogative.  Their job though, is not to make people flee Allanak for fear of being killed.  And I don't see why you'd want more templars doing such things.  The occasional one is more than enough.

I didn't say -you- had to agree. I am stating some of the reasons why I believe brutality has softened on Arm. Agree, or disagree.

I must be getting old, because I thought disagreeing was what I was doing.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

About killer NPC's:   To me, it seems like this has been fixed, to a fairly good degree.  The imms really listened to the players on this one, thank you!

About harsh/less harsh: I'm not sure things are less harsh now, but even if they are I don't really even care so much.  The game we have now is much better than it used to be, say a few years ago.  So much great work has been done on it, it's really amazing.  I have to say, I'm finding myself being more addicted now than I think I've ever been....now, if only I didn't have to work..   :wink:

[mansa]

Someone once brought this up in a conversation I had with them.

Noble houses, with the exception of Tor, should not have PC guards.

Why?  Because there's nothing to do, except be pampered.  And when you're sitting around doing nothing, you're not creating the world as a 'harsh' world.

But you're a noble.  And you want someone dead.  Hmm.

Here's an idea.  Contact someone who's shady, and get them to kill.  Your house should never have 'known' assassins.

To say that again:   No Noble House PC Guards unless special app'ed for.

[Carnage]

Someone once brought this up in a conversation I had with them.

Noble houses, with the exception of Tor, should not have PC guards.

Why?  Because there's nothing to do, except be pampered.  And when you're sitting around doing nothing, you're not creating the world as a 'harsh' world.

But you're a noble.  And you want someone dead.  Hmm.

Here's an idea.  Contact someone who's shady, and get them to kill.  Your house should never have 'known' assassins.

To say that again:   No Noble House PC Guards unless special app'ed for.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Why would a noble need to hire someone shady to have someone executed when they can just get their guards to do it?

Second, this game isn't about 'doing something'. It's about having fun and playing. You could say servant PCs don't do anything except relay messages, so get rid of them too. And without guards or servants, there's no need for a noble. Nix that role too. Don't forget bards also. How does someone being happy and singing add to the harshness of the world?

[Lasakar]

I agree with Carnage. I was shocked as Mansa wrote we shouldn't play any noble guards anymore. I think we should be able play nearly all in the game.

[Krath]

Ditto to Carnage and Lasakar

[Ix Machina]

I believe the point he was trying to make was:

Is it necessary to continuously recruit a barracks full of guards, pay them, and pamper them, and let them either spar or tavern sit on the off chance that once every three or four IC years they get used to say.. assassinate someone (and keep in mind, they're guards.. not assassins) or go on some sort of mission?

As far as an opinion, and this is my personal opinion and in no way reflects the opinion of the rest of the staff:

While the game hasn't gotten less brutal in my eyes.. crazy, scary templars are a dime an application, evil people still exist in power that it would be most Unwise (with a capital U, mind you) to cross, and that people will betray someone else at the drop of a sid, in the places where most people play.. i.e. cities, it has become much less harsh to survive.

I begin to see noble houses as cushy-life character recruitment farms.. people are simply recruited without any thought to whether or not they'd make a good guard, and treated exorbitantly well.

In my view, noble house guards are guards and not hunters. They're not and shouldn't be aides and messenger boys, and they shouldn't be assassins. If a noble house doesn't get much use out of their stable of obedient PC guards that sit around getting paid a lot of money to spar and essentially keep tavern stools warm and do everything but what they are hired for, then that is making the world less harsh. Suddenly every pc has a cushy job, food, water, a full set of armor and weapons just starting out... unless they go out of their way as a -player- to turn that cushy job down.

And it isn't that the world isn't harsh. Try to play an independent realistically and you'll find it is pretty hard, if you do it realistically, but I feel that the players really have made it less harsh and much more fancy. Seeing house guards being able to afford silks and gems.. well... when it gets difficult to tell guard from noble, then to me, the world's harshness has been reduced.

I also remember when it was difficult to get a job with noble houses. Not because there were less players, but it seemed that the recruiters and nobles were much pickier. Having the largest collection of PC employees wasn't the game of choice. This made finding a job as one of these guards or aides something to strive for. It made survival.. harsher. Not impossible, but you actually needed to work for things, and got a little less for doing it, but it made what you did get that much better.. it wasn't just handed to you.

There are many ways nobles can do things without having to have an entire pc stable of guards, including hiring the Byn to do those out of town missions, to yes, *gasp* making shady contacts and using THEM. But I'll admit, it makes things easier not to have to do that. And it looks pretty impressive when you can tote around an entourage of 10 pc's, never mind that much of the time, they're not doing what they're hired for.

Again, this is my opinion. And I'm not saying that its just the nobles and pc's who work for them making things less harsh. But to me, when I look at the actual harshness/survival factor it's low/high because few characters who have lived a hard life,  would turn down a chance to get paid for doing mostly nothing, get gifts, spar, get armored/clothed, fed, watered, given bonuses and a place to live... to me, when it becomes the norm that it happens, it does take the harshness away from a world where most people would be scrounging for sid, if not food and water.

[Anonymous]

When I first joined the mud I had to work to get a job, oftentimes getting turned down.  The problem is the northlands becoming Tuluk changed everything.

As far as nobility guard jobs you had four real possibilities.  Oash, Tor, Borsail and the Militia.  (Fale was never very active in recruits guard types so that don't count.)  When the northlands became Tuluk the number of positions almost doubled.  Now when someone wants to play a noble or templar guard they have 7(!!) options.  That's only counting the cushy, indoors-type roles.

It's too late now, but right from the start I wished that the Tuluki nobility had stayed a virtual entity.  I'm sure both clans have redeeming value, but in the end they sucked the pool of willing and capable PC guards and nobles dry.  In the place of noble house vs. noble house conflict, there could have been burgeoning Lirathan vs. Jihaean conflict built into the new society.  But I digress.

Guard type jobs are a dime a dozen because there are too many.

Kurac
Kadius
Salarr
Winrothrol
Tenneshi
Borsail
Oash
Tor
Tuluki Militia
Allanaki Militia

If all of these clans are going to be kept open I think greater direction should be given to each one.  A subjob for each clan's guards that ends up being something other than sparring and sitting.

Tor - Tor guards could be tasked with patrolling the wastes outside of Allanak in groups, keeping an eye on the four roads leading into Allanak since they would play a vital defense in defending the city.  I've always understood Tor to play a vital part in Allanak's defense planning, but I could be wrong.

Borsail - Borsail guards could go on slaving raids, grabbing gith for the arena.

Oash - Oashi guards could be tasked with making regular trips to the Oashi vineyard place thingee, making sure that it is safe.

Etc.  Etc.

[Tamarin]

Or.....hire the Byn to do all of these.  Boom.  One condensed clan.

[Lasakar]

Or.....hire the Byn to do all of these.  Boom.  One condensed clan.

But don't forget to salute before you backstab one!  :wink:

[Petra]

I don't believe the problem is too many clans offering roles as a guard (or militia of any sort), I think it's the fact that they don't do much.  You say they only go on missions once in a great great while?  Maybe missions need to be held more often.  Maybe the Tuluki militia should schedule a weekly scouting mission surrounding the city-state.  I remember back in the day when Kurac used to go on desert training missions quite regularly.  I'm sure people would flock to these roles more often if they had something to do.  Sitting around guarding a PC is pointless, sure, but there's plenty of other opportunities for them.  During the Rebellion days there was lots to do on a day-to-day basis, and we were all militia.  Every day was like an RPT really.  I realize there is often a time constraint and with multiple login times it's hard to coordinate something once in a great while, let alone on a weekly basis, but I think those clans aren't doing fun stuff often enough for more players to make that possible.

[mansa]

Someone once brought this up in a conversation I had with them.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Why would a noble need to hire someone shady to have someone executed when they can just get their guards to do it?

General Discussion Board.   That's a flame, to call anything I say, Ridiculous.  I bought it up, because I thought it had some valid points in it.  I tried to bring it out, what I thought was the most important ones that came across in my conversation with my friend.

But, of course, it came out wrong to your ears.

An Oashi noble who conspires to kill a Borsail noble, and get his guard to do it, should be expelled from the city.  Those kinds of 'deals' should Never be assicoated with a noble house.  Even if it was common blood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous on purpose.

Maybe all this cushy stuff is going on in the south but I can tell you we don't sit there all day 6 RL days a week either sparring or tavern sitting in the north. Do you all REALLY think that's all people do? Are we reduced to the narrow definitions of our jobs? My character has a cuople of hobbies. One hobby I'm getting really involved in and even getting the clan I work with involved in it. It isn't even related to any coded skills (though once the project is complete it will be a little)

My character has days off where she goes window shopping. She can't afford to actually buy anything except things to support one of her *other* hobbies so no my guard doesn't wear silks or fancy jewelry on her days off. She uses hand-me-down weapons from the barracks because she's saving up for an apartment. By the time a Nenyuk rental agent ever shows up, she'll probably have enough saved up for 2 years lease in a luxury suite. She doesn't get bonuses, and why should she? Everything she does for her clan is part of her job. It's what she gets paid to do already. A job well done gets a thanks and a nod of approval, and continual good work gets a promotion and enough of a raise to buy an extra 3 ales a RL week.

She works damned hard for those sids, and "a place to sleep" is just a cot in a public room, no different from the cots in the taverns that have them. If you want to get right down to it, her background has her coming from a rather wealthy family, and compared to what she grew up with, she's living damned frugally.

If you define your character by his job description, I can definitely see how a guard PC would be boring with "nothing to do." I'm glad I don't define my character that way.

That's all I wanted to say.

[Anonymous]

Or.....hire the Byn to do all of these.  Boom.  One condensed clan.

Considering last I read the Byn only numbered in the hundreds, the numbers doesn't work out.

[Carnage]

Someone once brought this up in a conversation I had with them.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Why would a noble need to hire someone shady to have someone executed when they can just get their guards to do it?

General Discussion Board.   That's a flame, to call anything I say, Ridiculous.  I bought it up, because I thought it had some valid points in it.  I tried to bring it out, what I thought was the most important ones that came across in my conversation with my friend.

Go cry to the MUD account, but I've got the feeling you're going to be laughed at.

But, of course, it came out wrong to your ears.

An Oashi noble who conspires to kill a Borsail noble, and get his guard to do it, should be expelled from the city.  Those kinds of 'deals' should Never be assicoated with a noble house.  Even if it was common blood.

Do you have any experience with any of this? I have no idea where you're even coming from. There's no reason for a noble to pick a filthy, poorly trained 'Rinth rat with loyalty to the 'sid over his own fiercely loyal and highly trained guard.

Noble and templar assassinations get done all the time in the VNPC world. Changes are, it's more than likely known who's doing it and why. Nobody cares as nobles are more than likely not killed unless they did something wrong, such as violating a social taboo or offending someone. If a templar finds out, a bribe or two should take care of it. This isn't happy virtuous justice land, this is Zalanthas.

If anyone reading this has ever played in a position of power, you know that it's not a simple of matter of snapping your fingers and having someone gone. It takes careful planning, money, a reliable person, and a good reason. If you start offing every Dick or Jane who looks at you cross-eyed someone's going to take notice and realize you're getting too powerful for your own good.

[Lord Noble]

Do you have any experience with any of this? I have no idea where you're even coming from. There's no reason for a noble to pick a filthy, poorly trained 'Rinth rat with loyalty to the 'sid over his own fiercely loyal and highly trained guard.

Trained in what? Trained in guarding people? Yes. Trained in social ettiquette? Yes. Trained in sneaking over a wall, through a window, slashing Noble Oash's throat, climbing back through the window, past the guards, over the wall and back to the compound without being seen? No.

It's perfectly reasonable to have a House assassin who pretends to be a guard. But not have a guard who acts like an assassin.

The point to getting a 'rinth rat to do it. Is also so that the 'rinth rat won't realise who hired them.

[Carnage]

Do you have any experience with any of this? I have no idea where you're even coming from. There's no reason for a noble to pick a filthy, poorly trained 'Rinth rat with loyalty to the 'sid over his own fiercely loyal and highly trained guard.

Trained in what? Trained in guarding people? Yes. Trained in social ettiquette? Yes. Trained in sneaking over a wall, through a window, slashing Noble Oash's throat, climbing back through the window, past the guards, over the wall and back to the compound without being seen? No.

I would assume Tor scorpions, the Green Berets of Allanak, would actually be well skilled in avoiding enemy detection and climbing. It doesn't even need to come down to clandestine skills. Someone can just grab a uniform, put it on and act like they belong, and quickly get access to the noble during the night.

It's perfectly reasonable to have a House assassin who pretends to be a guard. But not have a guard who acts like an assassin.

Why not?

The point to getting a 'rinth rat to do it. Is also so that the 'rinth rat won't realise who hired them.

Nobles are basically loved and respected and the equivalent of our celebrities. A Rinthi might not care about this, but who's to say that he's not going to go to that noble (who he may actually owe a favor to) and inform them of this contract? The noble will more than likely know who's put the Rinthi up to it and can form some sort of counter-action. As I said before, a guard can have loyalty for them and do anything ranging from  being fanatically loyal and disgusing themselves and doing a suicide attack or just using more sneakier skills.

[Tamarin]

my beef with noble assassinations is that there's no way to scale the walls at all...it is -impossible- to break into an estate unsing conventional means, without shadowing someond and following them inside.

[Callisto]

That's a flame, to call anything I say, Ridiculous.

No, that's an opinion.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I would assume Tor scorpions, the Green Berets of Allanak, would actually be well skilled in avoiding enemy detection and climbing. It doesn't even need to come down to clandestine skills. Someone can just grab a uniform, put it on and act like they belong, and quickly get access to the noble during the night.

I don't think anybodies expecting the Tor Scorpions to be abolished.  They can realistically expect to perform a wide variety of missions and tasks.

It's perfectly reasonable to have a House assassin who pretends to be a guard. But not have a guard who acts like an assassin.

Why not?

Because you aren't hiring your guards to be assassins.  You're hiring them to protect your estate and your family.  Most normal people when asked to kill somebody just like that have a right to be more than a little bit pissed off.  Quite simply, it isn't in the job description.

Nobles are basically loved and respected and the equivalent of our celebrities. A Rinthi might not care about this, but who's to say that he's not going to go to that noble (who he may actually owe a favor to) and inform them of this contract? The noble will more than likely know who's put the Rinthi up to it and can form some sort of counter-action. As I said before, a guard can have loyalty for them and do anything ranging from  being fanatically loyal and disgusing themselves and doing a suicide attack or just using more sneakier skills.

And what's to say a guard isn't going to be pissed off that you're asking them to risk/sacrifice their life for something they were never hired to do, and go to your mark and spill everything?

You can argue plently of situations why it would be plausible, and I can offer plenty of reasons why it would never occur.  But I'd rather not argue on this point, since it doesn't have much to do with the main arguement.

You can't justify the continuation of so many barracks of PC guards only on the basis that they might occasionally get to assassinate someone.  There has to be a better reason than that.

[Carnage]

You can't justify the continuation of so many barracks of PC guards only on the basis that they might occasionally get to assassinate someone. There has to be a better reason than that.

According to Mansa, the only useful thing PC guards do is be pampered and do assassinations for their house. Supposedly PC guards shouldn't do that and only Rinthis should.

You can argue plently of situations why it would be plausible, and I can offer plenty of reasons why it would never occur. But I'd rather not argue on this point, since it doesn't have much to do with the main arguement.

And I'm going to roll my eyes as there's been in-game examples.

The fact of the matter, however, is that house guard PCs should be kept in the game. Removing them would be completely idiotic and only lead to taking out more PCs.

[mansa]

I don't want to start a discussion in this thread about being legalistic about the word 'flame'.  I thought it was inappropiate.  I stated my 'opinion'.

The thing is, I feel the world has become -less- threatening.  The players of the game have matured over the past years.  The main plots have different greatly.  There hasn't been a quest to find this magickal item in a castle full of undead creatures in a while.  When was the last time you saw the whole tavern get up and chase a lone elf, because someone had the echo, 'you feel a hand in your belongs, but are unable to catch them' and claimed it was the lone elf thief?  When was the last time an Oashi noble asked you to get you 'a head of an elf' for craps and giggles?

There's more talk of 'gossip' and who's sleeping with whom and for how much.  There's very little outright disagreements.  When was the last time you saw someone storm off and claim, 'I'll kill you!' in the traders inn?  I haven't seen an elven thief in a long time.  Where did they all go?  They are the second most popular race.  Are they all desert tribes, now?

Templars have done a good job, in my mind, in staying 'scary'.

Yes, we've changed.  I still love this game.  Just, we've slowly shifted away from the college boy's game of Knights and Dragons, and become very political about things.

The point about the nobility -not- having PC guards, is that true PC guards have a borring life.  You have some creative 'spark' in your background, but, other than that, you're just standing around, or sitting around, collecting your monthly wage, doing nothing.

What could be done about this?  Create a quest night of your own, each monday or tuesday night.  Do it -every- tuesday night, and keep it regular.  People will know that -tuesday- night is a good night to log in, because you might be taking a trip to Red Storm, or to the Canyons of Waste, or to see how many mantis you can kill outside of Luir's Outpost.

Or, if you're nobility, start to spread out your influnce and spend your coins.  Give thirty coins to some commoner in order to get you some fruit from the Bazaar.  Toy with them a while.  Give them other favours, like getting your dirty clothes cleaned.  Then pay them to sing some song about some VNPC noble that has pissed you off.

A well known PC guard of Tor should not be used in an assassination plot against a Salarr merchant.  If Tor does that, Salarr will seek some kind of revenge.  -That- is a reason why Tor should hire some 'rinthy bum to carry out the plot.  I dislike PC deaths in a locked room.  It's an increadibly sad and easy kill.  Someone else saw the person go into the place, and you will -never- get away with it 'scott free'.

It's sad when the recruiter of a noble house walks into a tavern, and picks up every commoner not in another houses' gear, and puts them into shiny new armor and says, 'life is now wonderful, you're rich because i give you free food and water!'

That is not a harsh desert world.   PC Guards in a noble house should be a Special Application.