Opportunities for improvement: master cooking and luxury food

Started by Dresan, June 26, 2024, 11:33:03 PM

I've noticed that this game doesn't really reward characters who invest in good (expensive) meals. Basically half rotten crap from the ground is gives you the same results overtime as expensive meals.

I would like to propose the following:
  • Players who eat meals of high quality very good+ will over period of time get a +1 to current and max stat (stat boosts depending on your class/subclass/up to a limit of race+2 )
  • This bonus will continue as long as the player continues to eat such meals
  • Additionally eating an amazing quality meal will provide a temporary +1 boost current to stats(based on class/subclass) for half an IC day. With no negative side effects
  • Only heavy merchant classes and chef should be able to make the types of high quality meals to achieve any of these results.

The way this could work is everyone would have something like a 0/10 counter, and for every high quality meal you eat, you gain +1 to that counter. At around ten, or whatever number the staff believes reasonable, you would get the bonus.  This counter would slowly drop if you stop eating those expensive meals. Take time to gain, but easier to maintain, still quite the time or money sink to achieve this continuously. I these types of high meals available for clans either, with exception of perhaps nobility.

The reasoning for this idea is that someone eating nutritious meals overtime will generally have better health and performance than someone who does not. You are what you eat and this could be the coded version of how people in the past used to RP exercising for stat boosts. As for the second bonus, it would promote someone like nobility or sufficiently rich inviting or offering someone much poorer for a meal as a reward with some visible but temporary effects. Like with any crafting these types of meals would be very rare to see, but worth the extremely high price to enjoy such a meal. I believe the second bonus probably already exists in some form already, but I put the idea here just in case.

These food based bonus would be different than what is current available in the game which is often very temporary but relatively cheap. However, with the increased stat cap, there would be value to using both if someone has enough resources.  Finally many people still complain about the randomness of stats, so I believe by adding a few more of these mundane stat boosting elements in the game which could be acquired with sufficient effort, it'll alleviate more of the concerns some people have around random stats.

Maybe something like a hidden morale stat, that is boosted by things like eating high quality food, getting some sleep (with dreams!), drinking good quality water and so on. High morale could then do it's own thing... like boost a stat or two, slow down hunger, increase regen rates and so on.

I like it. :) No idea what it would take to code.

Please don't fix randomly bad stats by making us grind to improve them. Just get rid of them to begin with.

I agree people should want to eat quality food but that's just good roleplay, don't make it another hoop to jump through to be combat optimal. Can't we just give karma to people who spend on nice food because they treat the setting realistically?

PS new things to spend coin on is good, but not if it's made important for survival as that's just increasing the grind. Why not give some RP benefit like pleasant echoes of being full or lingering good tastes. I always want to see us adding more RP hooks and reducing grind.

Quote from: Usiku on June 27, 2024, 02:46:15 AMHigh morale could then do it's own thing... like boost a stat or two, slow down hunger, increase regen rates and so on.

I like the idea of a morale stat which could influence the game in different cool ways including stat boosts.

Perhaps one of those ways could be bonuses to crafting so that its not just combat related bonuses.

Quote from: Agent_137 on June 27, 2024, 02:52:03 AMStuff

I am not sure I agree with you. I am proposing a gameplay mechanic which would reward a player's effort and/or choices.

For example, this idea would reward players choosing chef subclass or heavy mercantile class versus choosing a stealth/magick/combat class/subguild which come with their own benefits. 

You only need water and basic food to survive in this game.

I'd wrap my head around something like this if it did have negatives.  Maybe something along the lines of: You spend a good deal of time eating these expensive healthy meals and then spend a week or two in the desert on foraged insects and you start taking negatives to stats cause your a glutton in a harsh, desert world. 

Checks and balances have a price.

this is a good idea on paper but in practice it's going to be used like buff potions in mmos
me and the boys guzzling down a bigmacs before the big braxat hunt

'High-quality' food in arm is mostly the fancy, super tasty variant, but not particularly healthy. Just like IRL where oats and veggies are cheaper than a Bigmac. Some 'bad' food on arm already comes with thirst penalties.

I don't think stat bonuses from fancy food make a whole lot of sense.

Quote from: dunecrawler on June 27, 2024, 09:24:37 AM'High-quality' food in arm is mostly the fancy, super tasty variant, but not particularly healthy. Just like IRL where oats and veggies are cheaper than a Bigmac. Some 'bad' food on arm already comes with thirst penalties.

I don't think stat bonuses from fancy food make a whole lot of sense.

You're probably right yeah.  ;D 

I think the reward for good food is the same as for fancy clothes.  The reward is that its fancy.   And there's fun RP around making and eating really good food.   I like a lot of the new ideas that folks are putting out there, but this feels like something that we should leave alone. 

So if you favor gourmet ginka pies, then your stamina goes WAY down due to lack of good nutrition, you start your progression to diabetes - which reduces your max HPs...

Or...

People who want there to be some consequences for eating bad food, and benefits for eating fancy food, can create social stigmas, and roleplay them. Maybe that Noble who likes rat kebabs won't be invited to the next Fall Festival. Or the unclanned gemmed half-elf who dines on mek steaks and sabatto would be shunned by the other members of the temple for acting above his station.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Quote from: Athapaxis on June 27, 2024, 11:48:54 AMI think the reward for good food is the same as for fancy clothes.  The reward is that its fancy.   And there's fun RP around making and eating really good food.   I like a lot of the new ideas that folks are putting out there, but this feels like something that we should leave alone. 

If we had a playerbase that thought this way, Kadius may not have been closed. It is a little sad.
Quote
You take the last bite of your scooby snack.
This tastes like ordinary meat.
There is nothing left now.

This feels like one of those "code is roleplay, except when code isn't roleplay" things. Should everything in the game have a coded advantage to it? I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that player behavior is often motivated by code. Thus, shouldn't code support roleplay? It already does in many ways that are disadvantageous to PCs, for example interactions between certain magicker classes.

Also, the idea that any Zalanthan food could lead to modern diseases like diabetes II is very silly. There's zero percent chance that someone getting fat on a ocotillo and chalton stew is also becoming diabetic. These are not processed modern foods. People in the middle ages of all class levels got to eat fancy food on feast days--dried fruit, honey, spices from the trade routes, good cuts of meat, baked goods (what we would call "whole wheat" now). They weren't getting fat and they weren't getting modern diseases like diabetes II or heart disease etc from those diets.

Zalanthan flour is not modern white flour, that's absolutely impossible as Zalanthas does not have that kind of technology. Marilla sap is not white sugar, it's not concentrated in any way. The sweetness in many Zalanthan foods comes from fruit, not from "sugar."

Yes, cooking and baking and historical food research are one of my areas of special interest.

Anyway, I don't see why foods couldn't be more or less "nutritious" (higher or lower quality) in a coded manner. Food in real life is more or less nutritious--and in the middle ages if you were eating gruel (travel cakes) versus venison (chalton), or added spices (seasonings), those things WOULD lead to better health. That's why kings and queens lived so long, y'all, when peasants died before age 30. Because historically and today, quantity and quality of food leads to better health outcomes and greater longevity.

I have no opinion on what kind of coded advantage better food could give but I don't think it's an idea that deserves a knee-jerk "no" based on incorrect assumptions about the way nutrition works in the real world / Zalanthas, or based on players' attitude about "fancy things" in game.
Quote from: Vanth on February 13, 2008, 05:27:50 PM
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

Even just "keeps you fuller for longer" could be a coded advantage for high-quality foods. It doesn't all have to be stats. Or heck if it's stats then just make it be wisdom--you're smarter for a little while. That doesn't seem game-breaking and it's not a combat advantage.

Spice boosts stats so that's a concept that's already in game.
Quote from: Vanth on February 13, 2008, 05:27:50 PM
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

Life expectancy was so low because of diseases, high infant and maternal mortality and sometimes starvation. Not the quality of the food, provided there was enough of that.

While I agree that a noble would be unlikely to get diabetes because they would have a hard time eating enough sugar for that, they might get gout. Or just become obese, get atherosclerosis and die from a heart attack, like Xin Zhui at age 50.


PS: While probably not a problem in Zalanthas, quality of sugar is a myth. Refined, unrefined, brown, from juices - it's all bad for you in large amounts.

This is something I said something about forever ago whenever food rot was implemented. You make it all rot and people will just eat the cheapest shit they can find because they don't want to carry around a spreadsheet to know whether or not that 500 coin food is gonna go bad before they remember to eat it. And while people didn't always splurge on nice food, they almost never do now. Because of how game mechanics impact gameplay. Willing to bet that if food rot was rolled back you'd see people eating fancier foods.

Amazing level food is so fine even nobles and templars should want to take a bite. People slit throats over master chefs in the elite circles of Zalanthas, so maybe staff could offer to animate NPCs to improve your regard (mildly) if you can afford the investment in ingredients/ excellence required for an amazing meal or amazing wearables.

If someone isn't ready to stab someone for your necklace or evening gown, it frankly isn't all that amazing.

A few thoughts not aimed at any particular person or response.

One of the coolest aspects I've noticed since returning to the game is the impact that increased weapon and gear prices have had on the game.

For those that choose a armor or weapon crafting class, offering a weapon or piece of gear that people can no longer as easily get is more valuable that straight coins and now encourages people to be willing to work for you to earn it. This opens up unique roleplaying opportunities that wouldn't be available if you had chosen a stealth, magick or combat subclasses. This adds tremendous replay value to a permadeath game on top of its storyline and engaging plots.  I think depending on what is chosen, whether that be lancer, thief, chef or jewelry maker the game should offer unique code supported opportunities to the player in regards to how they can interact and influence the world.

In this fantasy world of car sized bugs, defilers and dragons I want to believe that those that put the time and effort into becoming masters at cooking get a little more out of it than a 'You are full' message.

On a side note,  I do believe that as merchant and non-combat classes become more popular to play demand for non-combat related goods and quality of life items will increase.  I agree that roleplay etiquette  has some part to play in this, for example you shouldn't be going to fancy parties and meeting important people wearing heavy ugly chitin and shell armor. However, some coded tweaks could still made to support further demand (want not need) for luxury goods.

I agree with Usiku and Gimfalisette. I love the idea of higher quality foods equating to reduced hunger or increase regen rates (and especially dreams) because that's pretty realistic and a fun perk. ;D 

Any code which encourages people to do more roleplay and partake in more flavorful activities over being practical all the time is a plus to me.
I make up for the tiny in-game character limit by writing walls of text here.

hmmm.

but what's poor quality?

gout is the disease of kings. eating sweets and gaspies all day should probably cause long-term comorbidities.

rat kebabs are keto as far as i can tell, so i'm pretty sure that rinthi pcs should get some sort of bonus for that unless they introduce carbs, in which case they should get a malus to simulate the possibility of quick-onset diabetes or just veins exploiding.

we'll probably need to code some nutritional data and maybe genetic predispositions. random metabolisms that change based on age and stress. idk.

i'm poking fun but if more expensive food gave some kind of bonus that made people buy more expensive food and rp about being better than poor people, i am all for it.

also
Quote from: Dresan on June 27, 2024, 09:31:21 PMI agree that roleplay etiquette  has some part to play in this, for example you shouldn't be going to fancy parties and meeting important people wearing heavy ugly chitin and shell armor. However, some coded tweaks could still made to support further demand (want not need) for luxury goods.

please please please just code a wardrobe system. it's so common in mu*s and it would immediately benefit the game by allowing people to spend more money on clothes and gear and switch easily.

ps im not going to 'script it myself' i didn't go to coding school
Fallow Maks For New Elf Sorc ERP:
sad
some of y'all have cringy as fuck signatures to your forum posts

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on June 29, 2024, 02:33:57 AMplease please please just code a wardrobe system. it's so common in mu*s and it would immediately benefit the game by allowing people to spend more money on clothes and gear and switch easily.

I like this idea. Especially if  you actually had to buy a heavy large wardrobe, and have an apartment to keep it in,  and go there to change your pre-set clothing/gear set ups. And wardrobes had locks which would require BOTH good+ quality/custom picks and master skill to unlock, so not just infiltrators or random miscreant could easily take or unlock. It would actually require some effort on the thief's part if they really really want your fancy shoes.

   

I don't really like stat bumps, I would like to see staying well fed increase regen rates and perhaps extend hunger-thirst range beyond max, or make it tick down slower.
Basically a hidden "constitution" stat that affects your hunger/thirst/stam & health regen without affecting the four visible stats.
Quote from: Twilight on January 22, 2013, 08:17:47 PMGreb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 29, 2024, 07:59:16 PMI don't really like stat bumps, I would like to see staying well fed increase regen rates and perhaps extend hunger-thirst range beyond max, or make it tick down slower.
Basically a hidden "constitution" stat that affects your hunger/thirst/stam & health regen without affecting the four visible stats.

I can understand wanting to see something other than raw stats, certainly there is room for different options. However, I think regen rates in particular that of health are too fast already, making getting hurt rather trivial even if you don't pick a subclass/class without better regen abilities/camping etc. That said, I really like the idea of a constitution stat determining how often you need to drink or eat though.

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on June 29, 2024, 02:33:57 AMplease please please just code a wardrobe system. it's so common in mu*s and it would immediately benefit the game by allowing people to spend more money on clothes and gear and switch easily.

ps im not going to 'script it myself' i didn't go to coding school

Let's stick to the topic of this thread, which is food related.  That said, I don't know what a wardrobe system is.  Want to make a new thread to explain it and discuss it?
"I agree with Halaster"  -- Riev

I wouldn't want to see fancy foods give too much of a bonus, but a small one isn't a bad idea.

My first thoughts about these kinds of topics go straight to "what's the effort level in coding this?".  The code part wouldn't be difficult at all.  The real work is updating all our existing food items to have a quality to them.  It's never been an important 'stat' for food so it's never been accurately set. Thinking about that is when I start to go "uugh, what a pain that would be"!

Loss rate of food/drink seems the most 'tame' and reasonable to me.  Maybe a small bonus to regen rates.
"I agree with Halaster"  -- Riev

Quote from: Halaster on July 01, 2024, 09:46:23 AMMy first thoughts about these kinds of topics go straight to "what's the effort level in coding this?".  The code part wouldn't be difficult at all.  The real work is updating all our existing food items to have a quality to them.  It's never been an important 'stat' for food so it's never been accurately set. Thinking about that is when I start to go "uugh, what a pain that would be"!

Granted, I don't know the specific database or code that this game is working with, so feel free to ignore this if i am off my rocker, but ideally price point should be a deciding factor for whatever benefit the game decides to set at various ranges.

Cost is still a good starting point even if it hasn't been completely accurately set. The reason being is cost should be dictating player effort in acquiring the food. The second factor after price is complexity of recipe (number of ingredients + mastery needed to craft it).

Oddly while type of ingredients could be thought up as a factor,  it doesn't have to be for regular cooking and it may make more sense for it to be a factor in custom recipes. I am also assume mek steaks already cost more than chalton meat.