Restrictions to Guild/Subguild Based on Race

[Halaster]

Here are the existing restrictions to subguild/guild based on race, in black.  Additional restrictions that will go in with the new subguilds are in blue.  Subguilds with strikethrough are going away with the new list.

---------------------------------

Muls
- cannot be any mage subguild
- cannot be any mage main guild

Half-giant
- can only be _touched magick subguilds
- cannot be sorcerer
- cannot be full guild elementalists

Humans
- only race who can be psionicist
- only race who can be templars

Thryzn
- cannot be bard, con artist, cutpurse, house servant, majordomo, minstrel, rogue, slipknife, thief
- cannot be enforcer, infiltrator, miscreant, pilferer, fence

Desert Elf
- cannot be bard, con artist, cutpurse, house servant, majordomo, minstrel, rogue, slipknife, thief
- cannot be enforcer, infiltrator, miscreant, pilferer, fence

City Elf
- cannot be raider, scout, stalker, adventurer, dune trader

[betweenford]

The delf changes would make it even more fucking annoying to play out any kind of wilderness-to-city conflict because of how anyone treats any wilderness conflict in this game. People legit just zoom to cities and then immediately feel safe. They shouldn't feel safe against the desert ambushers and if one of those desert ambushers so chose a city subguild and effectively wrote their whole character around it, they should be allowed their city subguild because they made a tradeoff.

There are entire tribal roles in some tribes dedicated to killing people who are otherwise safe in cities. There are tribes who have it written into their documentation that they steal, kidnap, and trade for children who've lived the start of their lives in slums. The delf changes just make it more annoying to do any kind of meaningful conflict and even less reason to interact with the cities. And on top of that celves face no changes? There are entire docs based around desert elves literally stealing stuff within cities, stealing stuff outside of cities. Not raiding or trading and calling it stealing, but actually stealing stuff. Why eliminate the specialist role? Because an elf can sneak inside and outside? The race meant to cause conflict and skulk is skulking around?

I made a suggestion some months back about how stealth should be broken up in three ways, which add up to whatever the max is. A generic stealth skill, a city stealth skill, and a wilderness stealth skill. Generic is always called, and adds with the relevant skill to its 100% max in the relevant environment. Meaning a city elf has to sneak in the wilderness to be a sneak-god outside, and has to level sneaking outdoors. Same for desert elves.

[BadSkeelz]

The only ones I really like in here are the Muls and Half-giant restrictions, since they're thematic and on-point for balancing.

The rest I feel are just stepping on player creativity, especially if you consider classes just an abstract bundle of skills. Personally I haven't paid much attention to the class-lore since honor got nerfed outta Warrior, and all the nobles became Miscreants.

[Nao]

There is no reason delves cannot learn city skills. Several tribes have 'we do crime in the city' in their docs (Two Moons, Dune Stalkers, probably other tribes that I haven't played in). With the way delves can move between tribes, a delf can easily have spent part of their youth or even later years in the city.

[Edited out some detail about specific criminal activity in tribal docs - staff, feel free to ask.]

[LindseyBalboa]

Every other race can learn to hide and sneak in both cities and outdoors, but because they're elves and they spend the majority of their time in one location... they can't?

By documentation, city elves can go outside the walls and travel. By documentation, desert elves can go inside cities - some tribes have members that will spend extensive time in cities.

Why would a city elf not learn how to hide and sneak outside city walls, when they have no other real elf tricks out on the sands?

Why could a desert elf not learn to blend in when visiting a city? By repeated staff statements on the GDB, elves are stealthy and tricky and should rely on that. Why wouldn't a desert elf try to learn their one real defense in a city?

Stealth needs to be reworked, yes. Desert elves could be WORSE in cities than outdoors, and that would make sense. However, this is a change to a system that does not exist in a vacuum. Highly against this change to subguilds, very much in favor of reworking the stealth system as a whole instead.

[wizturbo]

These feel like appropriate restrictions to me.

[HazelHomewrecker]

I mean, everything seems mostly fine, I just dislike the idea the Desert Elves can't have city skills, but City Elves can have wilderness skills. It's weird and stomps on playability options for unique characters.

[Trevalyan]

I mean, everything seems mostly fine, I just dislike the idea the Desert Elves can't have city skills, but City Elves can have wilderness skills. It's weird and stomps on playability options for unique characters.

Ever tried playing a city elf in the desert? If you ride a mount you need to hand in your ears, and the admins absolutely (correctly) refuse to give you desert running.

If you're a city elf outside the walls, good luck to you. You'll need it.

[LidlessEye]

I mean, everything seems mostly fine, I just dislike the idea the Desert Elves can't have city skills, but City Elves can have wilderness skills. It's weird and stomps on playability options for unique characters.

Ever tried playing a city elf in the desert? If you ride a mount you need to hand in your ears, and the admins absolutely (correctly) refuse to give you desert running.

If you're a city elf outside the walls, good luck to you. You'll need it.

I've outwitted and outmanoeuvred PC Delves, fought Gith, Carru and Kryl successfully as a City elf with Outdoor Subguild. And I was a hunter for Kurac, and a rather good one at that.

[Lotion]

Half giant already can't become full guild eles because touched cannot become full guild eles.

[Lotion]

Will delves be allowed to play a mundane version of drov/whiran touched? It looks like it would be worth it just for the city hide flags.

[mansa]

Thryzn
- cannot be bard, con artist, cutpurse, house servant, majordomo, minstrel, rogue, slipknife, thief
- cannot be enforcer, infiltrator, miscreant, pilferer, fence

Desert Elf
- cannot be bard, con artist, cutpurse, house servant, majordomo, minstrel, rogue, slipknife, thief
- cannot be enforcer, infiltrator, miscreant, pilferer, fence

Basically:
Bard, Con Artist, House Servant, Rogue, Slipknife, Thief.

What do these classes bring to the table?

Skill	Class
	Bard	House Servant	Con Artist	Rogue	Slipknife	Thief
Hide (City)		Advanced	Master	Advanced	Advanced	Advanced
Sneak (City)				Advanced	Advanced	Advanced
Climb				Master
Steal	Advanced					Master
Sleight of Hand	Advanced	Advanced	Master		Master	Master
Lockpick				Advanced
Poisoning					Advanced
Pilot		Master
Scan	Master	Master	Advanced	Advanced		Advanced
Listen (City)	Master	Master	Master
Watch	Advanced	Advanced	Advanced	Advanced
Peek			Advanced			Master
Search			Advanced	Advanced
Haggle	Advanced		Master
Value			Advanced
Crafting
Instrument Making	Master
Cooking		Master
Floristry		Advanced
Perks
City Stealth		Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes

Short review:
Thryzn and Desert Elves cannot get 'lockpick', 'backstab', 'peek', 'steal' or 'sleight of hand' in a class or subclass.
They can get city stealth by picking Outlaw or a touched magick subclass. (Touched Drovian and Touched Whiran)
They can get city listen with Fighter, Soldier, Laborer class, or Bounty Hunter, Master Trader, or Touched Whiran subclass.


Long Review:
This change primarily limits the class/subclass combination that gives outdoor classes the ability to use (with high proficiency) sneak and/or hide inside the cities.
Those areas of the game are typically Tuluk city streets, Allanak city streets, and Allanak's criminal quarter - the Labyrinth.  This would prevent long-term playability of those races, in those areas.

The question is - does it make sense within the game world to have a master thief and burglar who is a Thryzn - whose job is primarily to infiltrate nobles houses, picking locks, and stealing priceless artifacts from their vault?
Does it make sense to have a house servant who is a desert elf, who can steal scrolls and books and infiltrate and spy upon nobles?   

These changes primarily push desert focused races outside from the city, and prevent them from operating long-term in Tuluk, Allanak, and the Labyrinth.

[DesertT]

Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.

"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"

[mansa]

Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.

"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"

That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists

[DesertT]

That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists

Where do I find this juicy truth?!?!

I don't see it in the info regarding Two Moons on the website.

[mansa]

That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists

Where do I find this juicy truth?!?!

I don't see it in the info regarding Two Moons on the website.

The functionality exists -
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1082219.html#msg1082219
I'm not saying what you specifically ask for exists.

[DesertT]

Thank-you for the clarification, Mansa.

I dedicate my 1200^th post to you, good Sir!!

[Halaster]

Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.

"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"

That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists

That's a fantastic idea, actually.  Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.

[DesertT]

That's a fantastic idea, actually.  Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.

Halaster, I could kiss you!!

I'm riding down now...

ETA:  Disregard that.  I forgot that it's heavily frowned upon, and sometimes moderated, to express either like or dislike for a Staffer.

My Bad!!

[Riev]

That's a fantastic idea, actually.  Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.

Halaster, I could kiss you!!

I'm riding down now...

ETA:  Disregard that.  I forgot that it's heavily frowned upon, and sometimes moderated, to express either like or dislike for a Staffer.

My Bad!!

Breaking GDB rules here, myself.

Shut. Up.

[LindseyBalboa]

Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.

"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"

That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists

That's a fantastic idea, actually.  Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.

That's not a bad idea at all. And upon further reflection, I think the changes are totally fine as-is as long as there is the allowance that you can burn a spec app to get city-specific subguilds as a d-elf. That requires justification. City elves don't actually have any new restrictions I just smoke a lot of weed and brought them into the conversation for balance.

tl;dr +1 but allow spec apps w/ justifications for d-elves to pick city subguilds. leave main guild restrictions as-is.


EDIT by Halaster:   Sorry, I didn't change anything.  I accidentally clicked Modify instead of Quote in meaning to reply to this.  So it looks like I edited it, but I didn't.

[Knight of Knives]

Dislike the subguild restrictions.


The unintended consequence is that it's just going to make more delves be magickers.

[Trevalyan]

I mean, everything seems mostly fine, I just dislike the idea the Desert Elves can't have city skills, but City Elves can have wilderness skills. It's weird and stomps on playability options for unique characters.

Ever tried playing a city elf in the desert? If you ride a mount you need to hand in your ears, and the admins absolutely (correctly) refuse to give you desert running.

If you're a city elf outside the walls, good luck to you. You'll need it.

I've outwitted and outmanoeuvred PC Delves, fought Gith, Carru and Kryl successfully as a City elf with Outdoor Subguild. And I was a hunter for Kurac, and a rather good one at that.

Nice. It's certainly possible to be a good c-elf hunter, even a good c-elf merc. It does require thinking, though, to overcome the handicaps.

[betweenford]

Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.

"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"

That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists

That's a fantastic idea, actually.  Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.

Enough d-elf tribes have reason, cause, and tribal role enough that they regularly send skulks/assassins out to cities that there could be a catch-all "city-born" or "pit-assassin" subguild exclusive to d-elves except the ones that literally dont ever visit cities, ever. which isnt alot

[Tuannon]

Is that a player deciding they have a gap in their utility or a lore/documentation reason though?