Restrictions to Guild/Subguild Based on Race

[Suhuy]

The other arguments is that Desert Elves have pretty substantial coded advantages, which warrants having the disadvantage of a more limited subguild pool to choose from.  City elves do not.

Right. See, that's totally what I'm talking about. Just say it's for game balancing issues and that's why the distinction exists. There's nothing wrong with that. But let's not keep pretending like it's designed to reflect reality. It's not. There's nothing city-based about backstabbing. And there doesn't have to be. It's not meant to reflect reality, it's meant to give different groups their own set of unique advantages. It's ok to say that. It sure beats the mental gymnastics to try and say why it's for realistic purposes.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Backstab in the desert though? I can't see it. Maybe it's the way I'm envisioning backstab. I know it's really just a 'hit critical area' thing, but you still need to sneak up right next to someone in order to do it. We have one square per league (IG def) which means you are in a wide open space!

Perhaps a different skill like 'Ambush', where you would have to be sitting in wait for someone to come into that area and jump them. I can see that in the desert or the forests.

Change my mind.

[Suhuy]

Backstab in the desert though? I can't see it. Maybe it's the way I'm envisioning backstab. I know it's really just a 'hit critical area' thing, but you still need to sneak up right next to someone in order to do it. We have one square per league (IG def) which means you are in a wide open space!

Perhaps a different skill like 'Ambush', where you would have to be sitting in wait for someone to come into that area and jump them. I can see that in the desert or the forests.

Change my mind.

It just seems like you're stretching that argument soooo thin just to make a point, not because it reflects some greater realism about critical strikes. And why create an ambush skill that functions as a "wilderness backstab" when we already have the backstab skill itself?

But I'm not even talking backstab. I'm saying the whole city vs wilderness arrangement. Most delves will not have any city based stealth, most city elves will not have any wilderness based stealth. What's the big deal if a subclass or two allows that rare overlap? You can argue why a desert tribesman wouldn't have city related talents until you're blue in the face but the fact remains it's not impossible for someone to be trained in both. You wanna make it rarer, knock yourself out. You wanna keep it limited for game balance issues, be my guest. You wanna try and argue why it wouldn't be possible at all ever and all you're doing is lying to yourself.

[Nao]

So - question for staff.

How many delves were created in the last year or so (the timeframe is not that important) and how many of these actually had one of these subclasses that you want to ban?

[betweenford]

So - question for staff.

How many of the delves created in the last year or so (the timeframe is not that important) actually had one of these subclasses that you want to ban?

and how many survived past 10 days played lmao

[Riev]

Backstab in the desert though? I can't see it. Maybe it's the way I'm envisioning backstab. I know it's really just a 'hit critical area' thing, but you still need to sneak up right next to someone in order to do it. We have one square per league (IG def) which means you are in a wide open space!

Perhaps a different skill like 'Ambush', where you would have to be sitting in wait for someone to come into that area and jump them. I can see that in the desert or the forests.

Change my mind.

Same skill, different name, its just nomenclature at that point. If they called the skill "MonkeyPaw" and it did the same thing, it shouldn't matter.

Desert Elves can, and do, sneak up right next to you with their amazing stealth. Whether they are swimming in the sand, dressed properly, or just know the lay of the dunes to know how to run up on your ass, they can and do.

Your issue, it seems, is more with the fact that Desert Elves can sneak up next to you with stealth and not what they do once they're there.

[Suhuy]

So - question for staff.

How many of the delves created in the last year or so (the timeframe is not that important) actually had one of these subclasses that you want to ban?

and how many survived past 10 days played lmao

And how many engaged in such wildly game breaking behavior that this is a priority for staff?

[Krath]

The other arguments is that Desert Elves have pretty substantial coded advantages, which warrants having the disadvantage of a more limited subguild pool to choose from.  City elves do not.

Right. See, that's totally what I'm talking about. Just say it's for game balancing issues and that's why the distinction exists. There's nothing wrong with that. But let's not keep pretending like it's designed to reflect reality. It's not. There's nothing city-based about backstabbing. And there doesn't have to be. It's not meant to reflect reality, it's meant to give different groups their own set of unique advantages. It's ok to say that. It sure beats the mental gymnastics to try and say why it's for realistic purposes.

It only takes ONE person to engage in bad behavior for EVERYONE to have to suffer. It is a problem that affected me personally, so now everyone should be limited.

[Suhuy]

The other arguments is that Desert Elves have pretty substantial coded advantages, which warrants having the disadvantage of a more limited subguild pool to choose from.  City elves do not.

Right. See, that's totally what I'm talking about. Just say it's for game balancing issues and that's why the distinction exists. There's nothing wrong with that. But let's not keep pretending like it's designed to reflect reality. It's not. There's nothing city-based about backstabbing. And there doesn't have to be. It's not meant to reflect reality, it's meant to give different groups their own set of unique advantages. It's ok to say that. It sure beats the mental gymnastics to try and say why it's for realistic purposes.

It only takes ONE person to engage in bad behavior for EVERYONE to have to suffer. It is a problem that affected me personally, so now everyone should be limited.

It must have been all those celves with wilderness hunt who were ruining your gaming experience. I hate when that happens!

[mansa]

There's a lot of attitude going on in this thread.   


Please be kind to your fellow members of the community.

[Halaster]

So - question for staff.

How many delves were created in the last year or so (the timeframe is not that important) and how many of these actually had one of these subclasses that you want to ban?

Of the 20 active desert elves (for this purpose active means logged on even once in 2023), only 2 have city-based subguilds.  Which tells me that the delf community is doing a pretty good job of self-policing this.  Which tells me that it won't be missed and there's a lot of arguments trying to keep it, when it only happens about 10% of the time.

[Suhuy]

So - question for staff.

How many delves were created in the last year or so (the timeframe is not that important) and how many of these actually had one of these subclasses that you want to ban?

Of the 20 active desert elves (for this purpose active means logged on even once in 2023), only 2 have city-based subguilds.  Which tells me that the delf community is doing a pretty good job of self-policing this.  Which tells me that it won't be missed and there's a lot of arguments trying to keep it, when it only happens about 10% of the time.

That it was seldom used doesn't mean it won't be missed, to me. It more likely means it was doing its purpose of being a rare occurrence. From that angle, it was functioning precisely as it should. And you know if it ain't broke....

[Brokkr]

And then on the other side of things, limiting city elves to literally be city elves and a single one will never be able to have aspirations to be something more than they are? A grebber, a hunter? It is not like there has been an overflow of city elves being hunters, and taking away the option to be anything hunter orientated seems unneeded and makes the race far less appealing when there are not a huge amount of city elves to begin with because they are already pigeon holed.

Here are the existing restrictions to subguild/guild based on race, in black.  Additional restrictions that will go in with the new subguilds are in blue. 

---------------------------------

City Elf
- cannot be raider, scout, stalker, adventurer, dune trader

Not sure what you are referring to.  Nothing in blue for city elves.  Guild restrictions are already in place for all elves, have been for a long time.  In looking at the subguild stuff, we realized that while guilds are restricted, subguilds are not.  So we holistically relooked at them, for all the normally placed races (it strikes me right now that gith should have the same restrictions as desert elves).

[Patuk]

The issue, mainly, is that just-about nobody asked for this, and that doing this will annoy a good deal of people while pleasing very few of them. The game is there for peoples' enjoyment, and sacrificing peoples' enjoyment at the altar of the game is a move to be made with appropriate caution.

[Krath]

In addition to what Patuk said, it feels like there are other, more important things, that should be worked on, rather than items like this that no one asked for. If I am incorrect, others please correct me.

[LindseyBalboa]

Of the 20 active desert elves (for this purpose active means logged on even once in 2023), only 2 have city-based subguilds.  Which tells me that the delf community is doing a pretty good job of self-policing this.  Which tells me that it won't be missed and there's a lot of arguments trying to keep it, when it only happens about 10% of the time.

... bro.

no, it tells you that most desert-elf players are responsible enough not to go buck wild with things that are thematically rare. that doesn't mean it should not exist. just because people don't play the same concept every time doesn't mean they don't want viable concepts to be removed.

this statement is even more wild when i take a step  back because it sounds like there was no problem at all in the first place and players were doing a great job at keeping rare the occasional d-elf that would have city stealth unless it made a lot of less for the pc.

so to reward players who are staying thematic and keeping to lore on their own, this shit? to get players back in cities, the idea is to remove city options from wilderness PCs that want to spend more time in cities? in a world where there are daily conversations about 'are there too may magickers,' the idea is to remove mundane options from PCs?

maybe look at it like:

The issue, mainly, is that just-about nobody asked for this, and that doing this will annoy a good deal of people while pleasing very few of them. The game is there for peoples' enjoyment, and sacrificing peoples' enjoyment at the altar of the game is a move to be made with appropriate caution.

[Kestria]

If it is not broken.. do not fix it.  Fix things that need fixing, or build new things.

[Krath]

Brokrr, this is not meant to be cheeky or dickish or anything, but it feels like instead of focusing on making things more playable and coming up with more stories, we seem to focus on ways to change the game or limit options. For instance, Subguild and Extended subguild changes...Fucking fantastic...THis, not soo much.

[BadSkeelz]

Of the 20 active desert elves (for this purpose active means logged on even once in 2023), only 2 have city-based subguilds.  Which tells me that the delf community is doing a pretty good job of self-policing this.  Which tells me that it won't be missed and there's a lot of arguments trying to keep it, when it only happens about 10% of the time.

... bro.

no, it tells you that most desert-elf players are responsible enough not to go buck wild with things that are thematically rare. that doesn't mean it should not exist. just because people don't play the same concept every time doesn't mean they don't want viable concepts to be removed.

this statement is even more wild when i take a step  back because it sounds like there was no problem at all in the first place and players were doing a great job at keeping rare the occasional d-elf that would have city stealth unless it made a lot of less for the pc.

so to reward players who are staying thematic and keeping to lore on their own, this shit? to get players back in cities, the idea is to remove city options from wilderness PCs that want to spend more time in cities? in a world where there are daily conversations about 'are there too may magickers,' the idea is to remove mundane options from PCs?

maybe look at it like:

The issue, mainly, is that just-about nobody asked for this, and that doing this will annoy a good deal of people while pleasing very few of them. The game is there for peoples' enjoyment, and sacrificing peoples' enjoyment at the altar of the game is a move to be made with appropriate caution.

Staff keep trying to reinvent the wheel to get over a bumpy road instead of fixing the potholes.

[Halaster]

We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate.  Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it".  We think it's broken.  We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago.  We feel we are correcting an error.  And honestly, that's it, that's the reason.  There isn't really much else to it.  That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.

[Krath]

Hal,

While I may not agree with it (the changes), that is the kind of transparency, we as the playerbase, are looking for. Thank you.

[DesertT]

We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate.  Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it".  We think it's broken.  We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago.  We feel we are correcting an error.  And honestly, that's it, that's the reason.  There isn't really much else to it.  That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.

Give us three spec apps per year, Hal Mussolini!!

[Patuk]

We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate.  Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it".  We think it's broken.  We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago.  We feel we are correcting an error.  And honestly, that's it, that's the reason.  There isn't really much else to it.  That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.

That makes sense on some level. Are you going to be rewriting the documentation of ~half the tribes that talk about irregular city presence?

[Tailong]

I agree with the staff on this one. Its literally in their name " city elves" and "desert elves". While they are the same species, they have clearly adapted to their environments over centuries.

The other changes look good too and are in line with documentation in lore.

If you want something different, spec app.

[Brokkr]

We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate.  Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it".  We think it's broken.  We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago.  We feel we are correcting an error.  And honestly, that's it, that's the reason.  There isn't really much else to it.  That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.

That makes sense on some level. Are you going to be rewriting the documentation of ~half the tribes that talk about irregular city presence?

I received a request on this from someone (that lists nearly every tribe as having a role in the documenation) and so far as I have gone through, it seems to be a combination of different interpretations of what was said (e.g. one role called them a "desert assassin" but the context around it seems to be in a generic sense of assassin as someone that does targeted kills, not using trope assassin skills and no where mentioned that it is in cities) and likely seeing folks do stuff with their characters and thinking that is part of the documentation, rather than contra-documentation.  And some I can't seem to find where they have the idea that the documentation says something.  So, work in progress.