Author Topic: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke  (Read 2207 times)

Yam

  • Posts: 7622
Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« on: April 01, 2021, 10:29:22 PM »
But actually not as a joke. It's been five years since full mage subguilds were removed and Elkrosians and Drovians were [REDACTED] and had their spells sold to the highest bidder or put into a lockbox somewhere. They were both kinda busted and mages always had their issues, but that was also kind of why they were interesting and fun. In moderated doses. Subguilds are cool too, but there's probably room for both. Or maybe there isn't. We cannot empircally know unless we do a trial, and it feels like it's probably been long enough to give it a go. What's the worst that could happen here?

Also it's been, oh god, over 15 years since Gin and Quick terrorized the playerbase causing psionicists to get some extreme adjusting still and over a decade since the Dragonthrall saga and the spate of fully-empowered psionicists, sorcerors, nilazi et al turned the game into World War Hogwarts for a while which ensued in those guilds (and other stuff) got adjusted into the substrata. We should see if players are still unable to handle the full power both braingod and nilazime on their side or if there is room for the Original Flavor mindworms now.

How has the magick/unknown/power level been lately? Is there too much crazy shit, not enough? Would it be kind of cool to make the old full guilds open for a week or two for shits and giggles?

Maybe this isn't the right year, but maybe another 5 years from now. Or next plaguetimes. Whichever comes first.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9250
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2021, 04:37:05 AM »
Or, on second thought, make all magickers special app with a hard cap. Mundane storylines are where the fun's had.

I'm joking. Sort of.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

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The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9250
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2021, 04:38:15 AM »
No ... really? Leave it as is, with the chance that a well-played, long-lived magicker could attain a reclass to full, old-school elementalist.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


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Maso

  • Posts: 4045
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2021, 04:47:23 AM »
with the chance that a well-played, long-lived magicker could attain a reclass to full, old-school elementalist.

That would be really cool.
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Inks

  • Posts: 1425
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2021, 05:56:40 AM »
No whirans pls. Pls...no whirans.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 06:00:24 AM by Inks »
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Maso

  • Posts: 4045
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2021, 06:02:23 AM »
No whirans pls. Pls...no whirans.

What? But they're so lovely and cuddly?  ::)
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 2286
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2021, 04:55:50 PM »
No whirans pls. Pls...no whirans.

What? But they're so lovely and cuddly?  ::)

I think the issue is not with Whirans so much as it is people using spells as an I win button. If they have access to certain spells, people use them to instantly "win" in ways that really shouldn't be happening. Not because it makes no IC sense to do it that way, but because there is absolutely 0 defense to an enormous pile of people typing kill dude.

X-D

  • Posts: 5789
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2021, 09:30:02 PM »
I am all for gaining full...it is below the old desire to gain "elemental" But something worth while to shoot for that is not as over powered as "elemental" Or sorc.

So yeah, two sids and leaving out the bad shit I feel.
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Fernandezj

  • Posts: 148
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2021, 11:53:46 PM »
No whirans pls. Pls...no whirans.

What? But they're so lovely and cuddly?  ::)

I think the issue is not with Whirans so much as it is people using spells as an I win button. If they have access to certain spells, people use them to instantly "win" in ways that really shouldn't be happening. Not because it makes no IC sense to do it that way, but because there is absolutely 0 defense to an enormous pile of people typing kill dude.

No, whirans require karma and karma-enhanced players wouldn't do that, or there'd be repercussions.

Khorm

  • Posts: 441
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2021, 09:59:39 AM »
No whirans pls. Pls...no whirans.

What? But they're so lovely and cuddly?  ::)

I think the issue is not with Whirans so much as it is people using spells as an I win button. If they have access to certain spells, people use them to instantly "win" in ways that really shouldn't be happening. Not because it makes no IC sense to do it that way, but because there is absolutely 0 defense to an enormous pile of people typing kill dude.

No, whirans require karma and karma-enhanced players wouldn't do that, or there'd be repercussions.

as a player that’s got maximum karma-enhancement, i don’t even cast spells as a magicker because as we all know - code != rp and our karma champions should be focusing on roleplay and setting the example for our less privileged users.
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Malken

  • Posts: 9223
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2021, 01:06:29 PM »
The fastest way to get karma is to never use the code. Armageddon's code is a trap to keep you at 0 karma.

Just kill your enemies with the "think" command like the vets do!
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Riev

  • Posts: 5824
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2021, 02:41:51 PM »
No whirans pls. Pls...no whirans.

What? But they're so lovely and cuddly?  ::)

I think the issue is not with Whirans so much as it is people using spells as an I win button. If they have access to certain spells, people use them to instantly "win" in ways that really shouldn't be happening. Not because it makes no IC sense to do it that way, but because there is absolutely 0 defense to an enormous pile of people typing kill dude.

No, whirans require karma and karma-enhanced players wouldn't do that, or there'd be repercussions.

You sweet summer child.
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The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9250
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2021, 04:13:38 PM »
Be good, people.

*Eyes this thread suspiciously.*
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

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You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


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Wedi

  • Posts: 213
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2021, 04:18:12 PM »
You guys and gals use think to kill folks? I use wish.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2286
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2021, 05:49:06 PM »
You guys are getting commands?

Brytta Léofa

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Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2021, 06:57:17 PM »
Whirans became somewhat less god-mode in like 2014. Although they can be very powerful, I'm not sure they're quite as big a problem as some folks remember.

To Yam's point...I'm intrigued. Strawman proposal: main class elementalists that get all the spells of that element's subguilds. Karma-gated at the max karma of that element's subguilds (2 for Ruk/Viv, 3 for the others). If you want to really limit it, require a special app (as for Sorc subguild and Psionicist main guild). With the extended subguilds, which are all available to anybody with mage karma in the first place, you can still make a pretty darn well-rounded character in terms of skills.

I am all for gaining full...it is below the old desire to gain "elemental" But something worth while to shoot for that is not as over powered as "elemental" Or sorc.

I'm also interested in other long-game ideas for elementalist progression. For instance: becoming an elemental, where this is changed to mean something that is cool but not Terribly OP. (I mean...ten years ago during the End of the World we probably would have called a Rukkian with backstab gamebreaking, so...this is a shifting goalpost.)
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The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9250
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2021, 07:02:22 PM »
If elemental came to mean something like, a perma stone-skin, or perma flaming fists, or perma night-vision - a spell, basically, that is just inherent to you now, I think that would be enough. Make it something that fits the character, that staff works with you to devise - so that everybody was in agreement.

Embodying a single skill should be pretty elemental.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


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X-D

  • Posts: 5789
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2021, 02:40:54 AM »
An perm non-spell tie to element would be pretty cool and not the same for everybody.
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Harmless

  • Posts: 2890
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2021, 01:25:32 PM »
I appreciate the current magicker subguilds. The staff seem to have added enough branchable spells that you can end up with a healthy variety and having the breadth of new classes is pretty great. I was very upset at how anemic the magicker subguilds were at first but staff took feedback from us and improved it.

I wouldn't mind having the old mainguild magicker option and I might pick it, but I might not pick them and even prefer the new magick subguilds over them. I wouldn't have said that three years ago.
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Dakota

  • Posts: 1291
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2021, 05:21:47 PM »
I think magick never had it so good. The fact they are hard to sniff and get access to so many skills -and- skilling up (learning) spells hasn’t been tweaked to be as brutally grindy as learning weapons...

Means compare to the ‘ol days’, magickers in arm have it made. There no Lith Templars providing a check / balance in the north or SLK hunting them all down (least playable). Even with the lost spells / smaller tree / etc. Seems kinda the best time in arm in the past 10 years to play a witch... lotta power. Lotta options. Little (too few IMO) counter balance.

That said it -would- be a neat path for them to be able to achieve ‘full elemental’.
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2870
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2021, 10:28:38 PM »
I don't play this game anymore but imma keep it real. Back when full mages were a thing playing one felt like ass to me. It was like playing a merchant but instead of grinding knife making all day to get sword making I was grinding fireball to get better fireball, and I was dog shit useless at everything unless I was cheesing through it with magic.
At least with the current system I can do something while casting spells. My scout Krathis was actually fun. The full guild I made once was not.

Patuk

  • Posts: 4183
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2021, 07:46:54 AM »
Player options good. Lack of options bad. We still have gemmed even today, so full magickers existing doesn't even 'dilute' anything, whatever that means. I'd support the classes returning also.
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th3kaiser

  • Posts: 525
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2021, 09:42:01 AM »
I'm going to be completely honest here. New mages are probably a bit stronger codedly (in most cases), but the removal of full magickers started my slow slide to stop playing. I've thought about this quite a bit and it's all down to the time investment. Full guild magickers let me roll up a PC, do a moderate amount of spell training and be able to jump into the game with a useful playable PC.

I just don't have the time to grind out mundane skillset after mundane skillset anymore. And yes, I know lots of you enjoy playing social PCs who don't use many skills and the like, but I do not.


Narf

  • Posts: 1019
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2021, 12:08:15 PM »
I'm going to be completely honest here. New mages are probably a bit stronger codedly (in most cases), but the removal of full magickers started my slow slide to stop playing. I've thought about this quite a bit and it's all down to the time investment. Full guild magickers let me roll up a PC, do a moderate amount of spell training and be able to jump into the game with a useful playable PC.

I just don't have the time to grind out mundane skillset after mundane skillset anymore. And yes, I know lots of you enjoy playing social PCs who don't use many skills and the like, but I do not.

I'd love to see some options to grinding.

Like "You may give up something to start with higher skills" or something similar. Or a class option that has fewer skills available or maybe a lower maximum to their skills, but starts with them much higher.

mansa

  • Posts: 10127
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2021, 12:47:43 PM »
The thing I dislike about full mage classes was the inherent end game focus of these character tropes.  I rarely witnessed a long-lived full mage who didn't attempt to focus solely on their element and attempt to go down that path.

Every single one that I saw attempted to become one with their element, and it was their end-game storyline quest.

It's like how blue robed templar's goal is to become a red robe templar.
...And how a political noble's goal is to become a senior noble.
The game doesn't readily allow you to focus on something else, if you don't have the ability to be successful in that something else.


It's just there's nothing else to do when you're playing a mage, primarily as a mage.  You don't have any combat skills, or many crafting skills.  You're pigeonholed into a role and the way the game responds to your progression puts you on a singular storyline.


::edited to add::

It's also hella fun to play those character tropes.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 01:10:44 PM by mansa »
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Riev

  • Posts: 5824
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2021, 01:00:38 PM »
The thing I dislike about full mage classes was the inherent end game focus of these character tropes.  I rarely witnessed a long-lived full mage who didn't attempt to focus solely on their element and attempt to go down that path.

Every single one that I saw attempted to become one with their element, and it was their end-game storyline quest.

It's like how blue robed templar's goal is to become a red robe templar.
...And how a political noble's goal is to become a senior noble.
The game doesn't readily allow you to focus on something else, if you don't have the ability to be successful in that something else.


It's just there's nothing else to do when you're playing a mage, primarily as a mage.  You don't have any combat skills, or many crafting skills.  You're pigeonholed into a role and the way the game responds to your progression puts you on a singular storyline.

There's something here that I agree with. I still want full magickers back, but I get it...

Fighter - Even maxed out, there are multiple ways to play that skill set.
Artisan - Even maxed out, you can continue 'researching' new stuff to craft, or do other stuff.
Full Magicker - Once maxed out, you have the same options you did at the beginning of your career.

I still think the exploration of full-guild magick is interesting. Shamanistic research, elementalism in its entirety... it is an interesting thing to discover, but there aren't many "end game" options for max magick. Maybe that is the problem?

Maybe if when a Blue gets to be a Red, and a Junior Noble becomes a Senior... maybe a magicker CAN go down 'that path' but if they succeed, they get stored and become something that can be used in future plots.
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Dakota

  • Posts: 1291
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2021, 01:43:28 PM »
I'm going to be completely honest here. New mages are probably a bit stronger codedly (in most cases), but the removal of full magickers started my slow slide to stop playing. I've thought about this quite a bit and it's all down to the time investment. Full guild magickers let me roll up a PC, do a moderate amount of spell training and be able to jump into the game with a useful playable PC.

I just don't have the time to grind out mundane skillset after mundane skillset anymore. And yes, I know lots of you enjoy playing social PCs who don't use many skills and the like, but I do not.



Grinding the mundane skillset, combat and weapon stuff especially, has literally made me swear I'll -never- play another combat based class. Ever again.

And given the fact you can now have a wealth of mundane skills PLUS be a magicker and avoid the brutal, 20, 30, 40, 50... real life day grind... is a boon. You can do more. Accomplish more. Etc, etc.

Tangent aside, another thing I do miss about Full Elementalist. While they are more powerful in some degrees, they are worse overall (re: sniffing, lack of stuff to do in a coded sense, etc)... That said, the ROLEPLAY... and CHARACTERS... I've seen played by Full Elementalist over the few years I saw them, was...

Astounding.

A well played magicker (full elementals), who had soooo many thematic, world, and coded limitations put up against them (rightly so)... out-shined everyone. They made for truly fascinating roleplay and were a true pleasure to watch evolve and try to find their way in this harsh world.

I feel the new "magickers" are really just pimped out Rangers of old. Rangers with bags of tricks. b/c I'd wager, by and large the majority of the magickers who choose a class, pick one of the ranger-lite classes...

And that just makes everything for them easier - not requiring to delve into the struggle for survival both in the "I'm a witch" sense nor in the "I'm trying to survive in a brutal world".

Basically while we, as a player base, gained a lot of super cool options, that freed up a lot of things -- we lost something I think on the way to it.

And given that this game world, is really built on strict roles and limits. Classes / Hierarchy / Prejudice / Boundaries / Lines in the sand / Walls / Allegiances / etc... The current elementals options kind... detract from that.

I may be wrong (likely am). But it's an interesting idea about full elementalists existing once again.
Maybe back to what they were. Elementalist + Subclass (which given the current subclasses, is already pretty amazing given the options offered).
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Blanc de Ocotillo

  • Posts: 370
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2021, 08:12:30 PM »
Yes please!!

Wedi

  • Posts: 213
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2021, 08:48:33 AM »
Well said Dakota!

X-D

  • Posts: 5789
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2021, 02:50:09 PM »
Only one of my many full mages was ever interested in "being one with his element" Mansa...just saying.

Still fine with there being legacy mage classes...Hey, if nothing else we get to find out if they really are that good...compared to the subs...Highlander style.
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Dan

  • Posts: 2394
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2021, 07:08:17 PM »
Here is a system I would like to see:

Each elementalist has access to all of the spells of their element.  As they progress down a particular path or after branching there are diminished returns on their ability to branch additional spells. Over a long enough time they may get to those last few spells but it takes as long and is as difficult as advancing to say, master weapons skills.

So the first few spells branch fairly quickly. The next few are branch at a moderate pace.  The next few are slow to branch.  The last few take an extremely long time.  This represents the individuals inherent potential power cap/connection with their element and can also be based on wisdom as a modifier.

So to put it in another way (all numbers arbitrary):

Rukkian A has Very Good wisdom and practices all of their spells at every opportunity:
Rukkian A begins with 4 spells, and has 7 spells at 5 days played, 10 spells at 10 days played, 12 spells at 20 days played and 13 spells at 40 days played, etc.

Rukkian B has Absolutely Incredible Wisdom and practices all of their spells at every opportunity:
Rukkian B begins with 4 spells, and has 8 spells at 5 days played, 13 spells at 10 days played, 15 spells at 20 days played, 16 spells at 40 days played, etc.


At 40 days played two different Rukkians with the same intelligence may only overlap on ten spells while each of them have 15 total with a long road to hoe for the last few.  This would make being a member of a group that can guide a budding mage a bonus, as they could help them toward their goals, while a wild/rogue mage would just discover whatever it is they manage to stumble into.
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X-D

  • Posts: 5789
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2021, 01:16:27 AM »
2nds Dan
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Lizzie:
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Barsook

  • Posts: 8609
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2021, 05:11:35 AM »
3rds Dan

Wedi

  • Posts: 213
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2021, 12:35:20 AM »
4th.

Lotion

  • Posts: 272
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2021, 05:20:27 PM »
How do touched subs fit into what dan suggests and what does this mean for Whiran and Krathi who have subs split between two karma levels?
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Incognito

  • Posts: 915
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2021, 02:33:41 PM »
A chance to become a full mage - 100% with this idea.

Of course, that one Whiran spells stays off the list, period.

Bring back the mayhem! Who needs mundane when magick is so bad-ass.

Option 1 : Play one of the current Guilds with a magick Subguild path currently offered. (more survivability, easier to play and max).
Option 2 : Play a magick Guild path (to begin with) with one of the old Subguilds offered, with the possibility to advance to full-blown mage class. (less survivability, harder to play and max).

Yes, survivability is not a real word....
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 02:41:44 PM by Incognito »
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JBlack

  • Posts: 58
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2021, 03:46:21 PM »
I never got a chance to experience any of these full on mages as they were in legacy arm so I'm bummed... The old man in me is wary of any changes to especially bringing back some of those mothertrucking nightmarishly trollish whirans and drovians.If we're working on a new thing, my votes towards having Elkros thrown back into the game with old and new spells.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9250
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2021, 04:18:33 PM »
Who needs mundane when magick is so bad-ass...
Precisely why full magickers never, ever need to come back.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

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Alesan

  • Posts: 409
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2021, 06:47:24 PM »
Who needs mundane when magick is so bad-ass...
Precisely why full magickers never, ever need to come back.

This is why part of me wishes there was a limit on how many of any kind of magicker there can be in the game at once.

Bast

  • Posts: 977
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2021, 04:01:32 PM »
I /really/ miss full mages. Its a shame honestly with how cool Arm's magick system is that we don't have more magick in the game. Its been well over a decade nearly two since we had the crazy heavy magick escapades of 2003. I think a lot of magick hate stems from a lot of extra stuff that isn't included in your standard magicker class that was flying back then. Quick was not an normal Nilazi...he had a bunch of extra's. Same with Gin..who wasn't a mage. There were other characters that had extras and I think there was a bit of arms race to try to up some players on a level field with others who had been given too much and blew any balance out of the water. Also because of how Karma used to work a hunk of the player base just never got to play them. There was ton of misinformation about what you can actual do as a mage and what you can't. Salt in the 'you should mistrust/hate magick' because of the IG culture in most parts of the game and you have this really toxic anti-magick sentiment that brewed in the minds of certain players. It wasn't I hate magick ICLY, it was I hate magic OOCLY and I want it completely removed from game.

Mudane classes can really be just as broken. You have players out there that will tear up anyone they get into a combat with because they know how the system works and how to grind out a bad ass. Its not fun watching a year played mages getting back-stabbed by someones throw away elf PC who was on a mission to kill mages..because they don't like mages oocly and then watch them get executed and turn around make another pc that behaves the exact same way. And yet I have never once written a tirade about how all Elven assassins are broken and we need to remove hide/sneak or backstab from the game.

The ooc level of hate aimed at Magicker classes in this game just blows my mind and I honestly feel like the game was better for having pure mages in it. Caster classes on Arm were my favorite thing about the game after Roleplay and I have literally never made a 'villain' mage because I used to worry if I did my PC's name would be one of the ones quoted next time there was a OOC to remove them from the game. Maybe just hit the reset button on expectations when it come to playing one like update the mage docs that pcs don't get to be elemental's as a cap stone. There are soo, sooo many cool things you can do with magick in the game. Especially if you can effectively get a group of mages moving in the same direction.
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number13

  • Posts: 1153
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2021, 08:37:26 PM »
In the before-times of the begone 90s, I tried playing in a couple different Vampire MUSHs (based on Vampire the Masquerade). It didn't last long, because mundane roles were just there to be food/victims/set dressing for the vampire players.

Arm sometimes feels like that. Mundane characters exist just to stand in contrast with the special players who are templars, elementalists, psions, and sorcs.  Like, they are victims whose sole designed purpose is to make gicks feel strong. It's only natural, I guess, to want to play even stronger mages for an even stronger contrast.

It's hard to roleplay a gicker as oppressed when they have so many PC peers. Or rather, that oppression is fully virtual, or occasionally enforced via staff animation. It doesn't actually have a strong influence on gameplay, depending on your sphere of play. My impression is the player base has largely moved on to the spheres where being a gink isn't all that terrible.

That's fine. If people want to play power rangers, I'm not going to say that it's bad-wrong play. I'm guilty, too. When I think back, two out of three of my favorite PCs have been elementalists, and the third had a gink-like mutation super power.

The thing is, if we want power rangers to be special, they have to actually be special and rare.

Or instead, if we want to play a MUD where everyone (or at least half of everyone) gets to be a spellcaster, we should adjust the lenses of the world appropriately, instead of lying to ourselves about the supposed oppression of the ginks. And then balance the magic-user classes with a mind that they are the default PCs.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 08:43:16 PM by number13 »

SpyGuy

  • Posts: 1434
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2021, 01:21:47 AM »
^ This.   I actually think the subguilds have made this more of an issue as people can ICly hide being a gick much more and build relationships before the reveal.  We as a player base, and I include myself here too, could do a much better job of ostracizing magickers.  Mundanes aren’t quite powerless in Arm but it requires banding together to hate on the witches (this doesn’t and shouldn’t always mean resorting to killing them just because).  The players of magickers should expect this treatment. 

I’m not sure how full guilds would change the situation.  Perhaps increase the fear/otherness and lead to more conflict.  But it’s on the mundane PCs to drive that.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9250
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2021, 02:53:25 AM »
As a mundane, I have absolutely no issue hating magickers. You don't have to be uncivil, or disclude them, just be dismissive and deriscive and verbally ostracize them. Well, maybe not hate exactly, but clearly denoting that they are not normal and they are less-than and they are not pointless but they are not better, and ...

... yeah, I wouldn't mind both magickers being capped, and, magick being less hated in general.
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number13

  • Posts: 1153
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2021, 03:25:39 AM »
I could see there being degrees of acceptance. Like, if someone is merely touched by an element, that's about as bad as being a half-elf or mildly worse.  A caster-as-subclass who doesn't spend all day spamming spells in a cave might be viewed as dangerous and awful, but in the same way that a loose mul is. It's potentially a potent ally for the desperate, or a valuable slave for a templar to collar with a gem.

Whereas full casters, sorcs, and nils should probably hated even more concretely.  Like, it's social poison to have so much as a friendly conversation with one, and the virtual powers-that-be will know if you are friendly with a defiler, and outright put a universal permanent wanted flag on you for it, barring you from all civilized areas.

chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1318
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2021, 03:42:01 AM »
If you build a relationship with another character for years and find out they are a magicker the only default go to is to hate them, which I find forced and makes for bad story telling because the reality is you would have conflicted emotions.  Even if you hated magic, if that person was your best friend, they were still your best friend for many years.   I think that the  magick hatred is overwhelmingly pushed and a nuisance that hurts role play, and it takes away from the game.  I have almost quit entirely because of it twice.  I'm not saying that means in general there should not be IC hate toward witches, but I also don't think hatred should be forced without consideration to the situation, which has been my experience; twice.
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Patuk

  • Posts: 4183
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2021, 06:32:01 AM »
If you build a relationship with another character for years and find out they are a magicker the only default go to is to hate them, which I find forced and makes for bad story telling because the reality is you would have conflicted emotions.  Even if you hated magic, if that person was your best friend, they were still your best friend for many years.   I think that the  magick hatred is overwhelmingly pushed and a nuisance that hurts role play, and it takes away from the game.  I have almost quit entirely because of it twice.  I'm not saying that means in general there should not be IC hate toward witches, but I also don't think hatred should be forced without consideration to the situation, which has been my experience; twice.

Nobody is forcing you to hate your manifested best friend, so I'm not sure why this post is a necessary one.
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SpyGuy

  • Posts: 1434
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2021, 07:46:33 AM »
If you build a relationship with another character for years and find out they are a magicker the only default go to is to hate them, which I find forced and makes for bad story telling because the reality is you would have conflicted emotions.  Even if you hated magic, if that person was your best friend, they were still your best friend for many years.   I think that the  magick hatred is overwhelmingly pushed and a nuisance that hurts role play, and it takes away from the game.  I have almost quit entirely because of it twice.  I'm not saying that means in general there should not be IC hate toward witches, but I also don't think hatred should be forced without consideration to the situation, which has been my experience; twice.

You don’t need to hate the magicker.  I’ve had dialogues with staff about characters having conflicted emotions over magickers.  I was never told ‘you need to hate them with a passion now or you’re playing wrong’. But I think that’s something important to explain in reports and/or bios as you’re playing an exception to the docs.

Now everyone around you might hate the gick and by extension you if you’re still openly close to them.  That’s the social pressure ‘enforcing’ magicker hate.  Responding to that social pressure is just part of that plot line.

I actually think that’s a really interesting plot line as it creates a lot of internal and potentially external conflict.  I also think it’s a much more common plot line now than it ever was before because it’s the logical progression for a rogue gick that gets discovered.

chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1318
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2021, 09:55:22 PM »
My experience has been more toward you shouldn't be doing that. 
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Brokkr

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  • Posts: 1081
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2021, 11:51:39 PM »
If you build a relationship with another character for years and find out they are a magicker the only default go to is to hate them, which I find forced and makes for bad story telling because the reality is you would have conflicted emotions.  Even if you hated magic, if that person was your best friend, they were still your best friend for many years.   I think that the  magick hatred is overwhelmingly pushed and a nuisance that hurts role play, and it takes away from the game.  I have almost quit entirely because of it twice.  I'm not saying that means in general there should not be IC hate toward witches, but I also don't think hatred should be forced without consideration to the situation, which has been my experience; twice.

Theoretical example that isn't so theoretical if you followed stories on this sort of thing.  Your family has always gotten along well.  It was unthinkable that everyone wouldn't get together at Thanksgiving.  There were the liberals.  And the Trump supporters.  Words were had, opinions made known.

And the whole group hasn't gotten together since, because they just don't feel the same about the people on the other side.

Like two people who know each other in Arm, some folks were always conservative, some always liberal.  People still got along.  But one of them now isn't just a magicker.  They are -using- magick, not ignoring it.  And you just don't feel the same about them any more.

number13

  • Posts: 1153
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2021, 12:38:02 AM »
Spice should be more like magic. And magic should be more like spice.

Sure, your friendly water healer can cast Cure Light Wounds and Create Water, but it's really good, addictive water. Pretty soon only mage water will fully quench your thirst. And you find that you can't heal as fast any more without magical assistance.

Saying, sure your best buddy is now casting spells, but the magic itself only makes good things happen. If magic caused addictions, it would be as avoided as heavy spice usage is.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 12:40:24 AM by number13 »

chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1318
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2021, 01:22:43 AM »
If you build a relationship with another character for years and find out they are a magicker the only default go to is to hate them, which I find forced and makes for bad story telling because the reality is you would have conflicted emotions.  Even if you hated magic, if that person was your best friend, they were still your best friend for many years.   I think that the  magick hatred is overwhelmingly pushed and a nuisance that hurts role play, and it takes away from the game.  I have almost quit entirely because of it twice.  I'm not saying that means in general there should not be IC hate toward witches, but I also don't think hatred should be forced without consideration to the situation, which has been my experience; twice.

Theoretical example that isn't so theoretical if you followed stories on this sort of thing.  Your family has always gotten along well.  It was unthinkable that everyone wouldn't get together at Thanksgiving.  There were the liberals.  And the Trump supporters.  Words were had, opinions made known.

And the whole group hasn't gotten together since, because they just don't feel the same about the people on the other side.

Like two people who know each other in Arm, some folks were always conservative, some always liberal.  People still got along.  But one of them now isn't just a magicker.  They are -using- magick, not ignoring it.  And you just don't feel the same about them any more.

I think that is a good most case scenario, but should it be the all case scenario?   Perhaps the outside ooc pressure is working as intended to create more internal conflict for the player, but really the internal conflict should be on the character and I think encouraging the player to have their character have that sort of conflict is usually good.  That being said, discouraging a player from engaging the way they think their character would usually isn't.   I understand that it is a way to stop widespread acceptance of magick in the non-magick base, and in the grand scheme of things has worked.   My personal experience with it has been off putting, because it doesn't seem to matter if 99% of your characters would turn on their best friend if they found out they were witches the 1% that don't are instantly shunned out of character even if they have a good reason and character arc to justify why it makes sense they are doing it.  I'm probably wrong I know, but thats the way it has come across to me.
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Ama

  • Posts: 21
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2021, 01:45:29 AM »
avoided as heavy spice usage is.

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triste

  • Posts: 959
Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2021, 08:55:00 AM »
Spice should be more like magic. And magic should be more like spice.

Sure, your friendly water healer can cast Cure Light Wounds and Create Water, but it's really good, addictive water. Pretty soon only mage water will fully quench your thirst. And you find that you can't heal as fast any more without magical assistance.

Saying, sure your best buddy is now casting spells, but the magic itself only makes good things happen. If magic caused addictions, it would be as avoided as heavy spice usage is.

I am a big fan of this idea.

I've been watching another Armageddon player (Harmless) stream Witcher 3 now and then (old game I know, we are really busy people), and we love how magic in that game seems to work similar to defiler magic on Armageddon.

After seeing defiling in action in Armageddon once a decade ago (um, I accidentally killed a plant), I have always wished in game magic had more negative ramifications for both the caster and anyone/anything nearby. It fits the theme of the game exquisitely.
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FantasyWriter

  • Posts: 9785
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Re: Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2021, 04:30:36 PM »
Here is a system I would like to see:

Each elementalist has access to all of the spells of their element.  As they progress down a particular path or after branching there are diminished returns on their ability to branch additional spells. Over a long enough time they may get to those last few spells but it takes as long and is as difficult as advancing to say, master weapons skills.

So the first few spells branch fairly quickly. The next few are branch at a moderate pace.  The next few are slow to branch.  The last few take an extremely long time.  This represents the individuals inherent potential power cap/connection with their element and can also be based on wisdom as a modifier.

So to put it in another way (all numbers arbitrary):

Rukkian A has Very Good wisdom and practices all of their spells at every opportunity:
Rukkian A begins with 4 spells, and has 7 spells at 5 days played, 10 spells at 10 days played, 12 spells at 20 days played and 13 spells at 40 days played, etc.

Rukkian B has Absolutely Incredible Wisdom and practices all of their spells at every opportunity:
Rukkian B begins with 4 spells, and has 8 spells at 5 days played, 13 spells at 10 days played, 15 spells at 20 days played, 16 spells at 40 days played, etc.


At 40 days played two different Rukkians with the same intelligence may only overlap on ten spells while each of them have 15 total with a long road to hoe for the last few.  This would make being a member of a group that can guide a budding mage a bonus, as they could help them toward their goals, while a wild/rogue mage would just discover whatever it is they manage to stumble into.

I would love to see this.  With the exception of a few PC I played for a few hours or days until they died or I abandoned them for a year or two, I haven't played since the elementalist nerf.  I started playing in the high-magick end of the world times with my second or third PC working for Quick, so to me, that is what Armageddon is supposed to feel like. *shrug*
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