Bring back full magickers maybe, like as a joke

[Riev]

The thing I dislike about full mage classes was the inherent end game focus of these character tropes.  I rarely witnessed a long-lived full mage who didn't attempt to focus solely on their element and attempt to go down that path.

Every single one that I saw attempted to become one with their element, and it was their end-game storyline quest.

It's like how blue robed templar's goal is to become a red robe templar.
...And how a political noble's goal is to become a senior noble.
The game doesn't readily allow you to focus on something else, if you don't have the ability to be successful in that something else.


It's just there's nothing else to do when you're playing a mage, primarily as a mage.  You don't have any combat skills, or many crafting skills.  You're pigeonholed into a role and the way the game responds to your progression puts you on a singular storyline.

There's something here that I agree with. I still want full magickers back, but I get it...

Fighter - Even maxed out, there are multiple ways to play that skill set.
Artisan - Even maxed out, you can continue 'researching' new stuff to craft, or do other stuff.
Full Magicker - Once maxed out, you have the same options you did at the beginning of your career.

I still think the exploration of full-guild magick is interesting. Shamanistic research, elementalism in its entirety... it is an interesting thing to discover, but there aren't many "end game" options for max magick. Maybe that is the problem?

Maybe if when a Blue gets to be a Red, and a Junior Noble becomes a Senior... maybe a magicker CAN go down 'that path' but if they succeed, they get stored and become something that can be used in future plots.

[Dakota]

I'm going to be completely honest here. New mages are probably a bit stronger codedly (in most cases), but the removal of full magickers started my slow slide to stop playing. I've thought about this quite a bit and it's all down to the time investment. Full guild magickers let me roll up a PC, do a moderate amount of spell training and be able to jump into the game with a useful playable PC.

I just don't have the time to grind out mundane skillset after mundane skillset anymore. And yes, I know lots of you enjoy playing social PCs who don't use many skills and the like, but I do not.

Grinding the mundane skillset, combat and weapon stuff especially, has literally made me swear I'll -never- play another combat based class. Ever again.

And given the fact you can now have a wealth of mundane skills PLUS be a magicker and avoid the brutal, 20, 30, 40, 50... real life day grind... is a boon. You can do more. Accomplish more. Etc, etc.

Tangent aside, another thing I do miss about Full Elementalist. While they are more powerful in some degrees, they are worse overall (re: sniffing, lack of stuff to do in a coded sense, etc)... That said, the ROLEPLAY... and CHARACTERS... I've seen played by Full Elementalist over the few years I saw them, was...

Astounding.

A well played magicker (full elementals), who had soooo many thematic, world, and coded limitations put up against them (rightly so)... out-shined everyone. They made for truly fascinating roleplay and were a true pleasure to watch evolve and try to find their way in this harsh world.

I feel the new "magickers" are really just pimped out Rangers of old. Rangers with bags of tricks. b/c I'd wager, by and large the majority of the magickers who choose a class, pick one of the ranger-lite classes...

And that just makes everything for them easier - not requiring to delve into the struggle for survival both in the "I'm a witch" sense nor in the "I'm trying to survive in a brutal world".

Basically while we, as a player base, gained a lot of super cool options, that freed up a lot of things -- we lost something I think on the way to it.

And given that this game world, is really built on strict roles and limits. Classes / Hierarchy / Prejudice / Boundaries / Lines in the sand / Walls / Allegiances / etc... The current elementals options kind... detract from that.

I may be wrong (likely am). But it's an interesting idea about full elementalists existing once again.
Maybe back to what they were. Elementalist + Subclass (which given the current subclasses, is already pretty amazing given the options offered).

[Blanc de Ocotillo]

Yes please!!

[Wedi]

Well said Dakota!

[X-D]

Only one of my many full mages was ever interested in "being one with his element" Mansa...just saying.

Still fine with there being legacy mage classes...Hey, if nothing else we get to find out if they really are that good...compared to the subs...Highlander style.

[Dan]

Here is a system I would like to see:

Each elementalist has access to all of the spells of their element.  As they progress down a particular path or after branching there are diminished returns on their ability to branch additional spells. Over a long enough time they may get to those last few spells but it takes as long and is as difficult as advancing to say, master weapons skills.

So the first few spells branch fairly quickly. The next few are branch at a moderate pace.  The next few are slow to branch.  The last few take an extremely long time.  This represents the individuals inherent potential power cap/connection with their element and can also be based on wisdom as a modifier.

So to put it in another way (all numbers arbitrary):

Rukkian A has Very Good wisdom and practices all of their spells at every opportunity:
Rukkian A begins with 4 spells, and has 7 spells at 5 days played, 10 spells at 10 days played, 12 spells at 20 days played and 13 spells at 40 days played, etc.

Rukkian B has Absolutely Incredible Wisdom and practices all of their spells at every opportunity:
Rukkian B begins with 4 spells, and has 8 spells at 5 days played, 13 spells at 10 days played, 15 spells at 20 days played, 16 spells at 40 days played, etc.


At 40 days played two different Rukkians with the same intelligence may only overlap on ten spells while each of them have 15 total with a long road to hoe for the last few.  This would make being a member of a group that can guide a budding mage a bonus, as they could help them toward their goals, while a wild/rogue mage would just discover whatever it is they manage to stumble into.

[X-D]

2nds Dan

[Barsook]

3rds Dan

[Wedi]

4th.

[Lotion]

How do touched subs fit into what dan suggests and what does this mean for Whiran and Krathi who have subs split between two karma levels?

[Incognito]

A chance to become a full mage - 100% with this idea.

Of course, that one Whiran spells stays off the list, period.

Bring back the mayhem! Who needs mundane when magick is so bad-ass.

Option 1 : Play one of the current Guilds with a magick Subguild path currently offered. (more survivability, easier to play and max).
Option 2 : Play a magick Guild path (to begin with) with one of the old Subguilds offered, with the possibility to advance to full-blown mage class. (less survivability, harder to play and max).

Yes, survivability is not a real word....

[JBlack]

I never got a chance to experience any of these full on mages as they were in legacy arm so I'm bummed... The old man in me is wary of any changes to especially bringing back some of those mothertrucking nightmarishly trollish whirans and drovians.If we're working on a new thing, my votes towards having Elkros thrown back into the game with old and new spells.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Who needs mundane when magick is so bad-ass...

Precisely why full magickers never, ever need to come back.

[Alesan]

Who needs mundane when magick is so bad-ass...

Precisely why full magickers never, ever need to come back.

This is why part of me wishes there was a limit on how many of any kind of magicker there can be in the game at once.

[Bast]

I /really/ miss full mages. Its a shame honestly with how cool Arm's magick system is that we don't have more magick in the game. Its been well over a decade nearly two since we had the crazy heavy magick escapades of 2003. I think a lot of magick hate stems from a lot of extra stuff that isn't included in your standard magicker class that was flying back then. Quick was not an normal Nilazi...he had a bunch of extra's. Same with Gin..who wasn't a mage. There were other characters that had extras and I think there was a bit of arms race to try to up some players on a level field with others who had been given too much and blew any balance out of the water. Also because of how Karma used to work a hunk of the player base just never got to play them. There was ton of misinformation about what you can actual do as a mage and what you can't. Salt in the 'you should mistrust/hate magick' because of the IG culture in most parts of the game and you have this really toxic anti-magick sentiment that brewed in the minds of certain players. It wasn't I hate magick ICLY, it was I hate magic OOCLY and I want it completely removed from game.

Mudane classes can really be just as broken. You have players out there that will tear up anyone they get into a combat with because they know how the system works and how to grind out a bad ass. Its not fun watching a year played mages getting back-stabbed by someones throw away elf PC who was on a mission to kill mages..because they don't like mages oocly and then watch them get executed and turn around make another pc that behaves the exact same way. And yet I have never once written a tirade about how all Elven assassins are broken and we need to remove hide/sneak or backstab from the game.

The ooc level of hate aimed at Magicker classes in this game just blows my mind and I honestly feel like the game was better for having pure mages in it. Caster classes on Arm were my favorite thing about the game after Roleplay and I have literally never made a 'villain' mage because I used to worry if I did my PC's name would be one of the ones quoted next time there was a OOC to remove them from the game. Maybe just hit the reset button on expectations when it come to playing one like update the mage docs that pcs don't get to be elemental's as a cap stone. There are soo, sooo many cool things you can do with magick in the game. Especially if you can effectively get a group of mages moving in the same direction.

[number13]

In the before-times of the begone 90s, I tried playing in a couple different Vampire MUSHs (based on Vampire the Masquerade). It didn't last long, because mundane roles were just there to be food/victims/set dressing for the vampire players.

Arm sometimes feels like that. Mundane characters exist just to stand in contrast with the special players who are templars, elementalists, psions, and sorcs.  Like, they are victims whose sole designed purpose is to make gicks feel strong. It's only natural, I guess, to want to play even stronger mages for an even stronger contrast.

It's hard to roleplay a gicker as oppressed when they have so many PC peers. Or rather, that oppression is fully virtual, or occasionally enforced via staff animation. It doesn't actually have a strong influence on gameplay, depending on your sphere of play. My impression is the player base has largely moved on to the spheres where being a gink isn't all that terrible.

That's fine. If people want to play power rangers, I'm not going to say that it's bad-wrong play. I'm guilty, too. When I think back, two out of three of my favorite PCs have been elementalists, and the third had a gink-like mutation super power.

The thing is, if we want power rangers to be special, they have to actually be special and rare.

Or instead, if we want to play a MUD where everyone (or at least half of everyone) gets to be a spellcaster, we should adjust the lenses of the world appropriately, instead of lying to ourselves about the supposed oppression of the ginks. And then balance the magic-user classes with a mind that they are the default PCs.

[SpyGuy]

^ This.   I actually think the subguilds have made this more of an issue as people can ICly hide being a gick much more and build relationships before the reveal.  We as a player base, and I include myself here too, could do a much better job of ostracizing magickers.  Mundanes aren't quite powerless in Arm but it requires banding together to hate on the witches (this doesn't and shouldn't always mean resorting to killing them just because).  The players of magickers should expect this treatment. 

I'm not sure how full guilds would change the situation.  Perhaps increase the fear/otherness and lead to more conflict.  But it's on the mundane PCs to drive that.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As a mundane, I have absolutely no issue hating magickers. You don't have to be uncivil, or disclude them, just be dismissive and deriscive and verbally ostracize them. Well, maybe not hate exactly, but clearly denoting that they are not normal and they are less-than and they are not pointless but they are not better, and ...

... yeah, I wouldn't mind both magickers being capped, and, magick being less hated in general.

[number13]

I could see there being degrees of acceptance. Like, if someone is merely touched by an element, that's about as bad as being a half-elf or mildly worse.  A caster-as-subclass who doesn't spend all day spamming spells in a cave might be viewed as dangerous and awful, but in the same way that a loose mul is. It's potentially a potent ally for the desperate, or a valuable slave for a templar to collar with a gem.

Whereas full casters, sorcs, and nils should probably hated even more concretely.  Like, it's social poison to have so much as a friendly conversation with one, and the virtual powers-that-be will know if you are friendly with a defiler, and outright put a universal permanent wanted flag on you for it, barring you from all civilized areas.

[chrisdcoulombe]

If you build a relationship with another character for years and find out they are a magicker the only default go to is to hate them, which I find forced and makes for bad story telling because the reality is you would have conflicted emotions.  Even if you hated magic, if that person was your best friend, they were still your best friend for many years.   I think that the  magick hatred is overwhelmingly pushed and a nuisance that hurts role play, and it takes away from the game.  I have almost quit entirely because of it twice.  I'm not saying that means in general there should not be IC hate toward witches, but I also don't think hatred should be forced without consideration to the situation, which has been my experience; twice.

[Patuk]

If you build a relationship with another character for years and find out they are a magicker the only default go to is to hate them, which I find forced and makes for bad story telling because the reality is you would have conflicted emotions.  Even if you hated magic, if that person was your best friend, they were still your best friend for many years.   I think that the  magick hatred is overwhelmingly pushed and a nuisance that hurts role play, and it takes away from the game.  I have almost quit entirely because of it twice.  I'm not saying that means in general there should not be IC hate toward witches, but I also don't think hatred should be forced without consideration to the situation, which has been my experience; twice.

Nobody is forcing you to hate your manifested best friend, so I'm not sure why this post is a necessary one.

[SpyGuy]

If you build a relationship with another character for years and find out they are a magicker the only default go to is to hate them, which I find forced and makes for bad story telling because the reality is you would have conflicted emotions.  Even if you hated magic, if that person was your best friend, they were still your best friend for many years.   I think that the  magick hatred is overwhelmingly pushed and a nuisance that hurts role play, and it takes away from the game.  I have almost quit entirely because of it twice.  I'm not saying that means in general there should not be IC hate toward witches, but I also don't think hatred should be forced without consideration to the situation, which has been my experience; twice.

You don't need to hate the magicker.  I've had dialogues with staff about characters having conflicted emotions over magickers.  I was never told 'you need to hate them with a passion now or you're playing wrong'. But I think that's something important to explain in reports and/or bios as you're playing an exception to the docs.

Now everyone around you might hate the gick and by extension you if you're still openly close to them.  That's the social pressure 'enforcing' magicker hate.  Responding to that social pressure is just part of that plot line.

I actually think that's a really interesting plot line as it creates a lot of internal and potentially external conflict.  I also think it's a much more common plot line now than it ever was before because it's the logical progression for a rogue gick that gets discovered.

[chrisdcoulombe]

My experience has been more toward you shouldn't be doing that. 

[Brokkr]

If you build a relationship with another character for years and find out they are a magicker the only default go to is to hate them, which I find forced and makes for bad story telling because the reality is you would have conflicted emotions.  Even if you hated magic, if that person was your best friend, they were still your best friend for many years.   I think that the  magick hatred is overwhelmingly pushed and a nuisance that hurts role play, and it takes away from the game.  I have almost quit entirely because of it twice.  I'm not saying that means in general there should not be IC hate toward witches, but I also don't think hatred should be forced without consideration to the situation, which has been my experience; twice.

Theoretical example that isn't so theoretical if you followed stories on this sort of thing.  Your family has always gotten along well.  It was unthinkable that everyone wouldn't get together at Thanksgiving.  There were the liberals.  And the Trump supporters.  Words were had, opinions made known.

And the whole group hasn't gotten together since, because they just don't feel the same about the people on the other side.

Like two people who know each other in Arm, some folks were always conservative, some always liberal.  People still got along.  But one of them now isn't just a magicker.  They are -using- magick, not ignoring it.  And you just don't feel the same about them any more.

[number13]

Spice should be more like magic. And magic should be more like spice.

Sure, your friendly water healer can cast Cure Light Wounds and Create Water, but it's really good, addictive water. Pretty soon only mage water will fully quench your thirst. And you find that you can't heal as fast any more without magical assistance.

Saying, sure your best buddy is now casting spells, but the magic itself only makes good things happen. If magic caused addictions, it would be as avoided as heavy spice usage is.