Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[hyzhenhok]

It always felt like playing an unlicensed criminal was almost similar to trying to play a defiler in the middle of the city. Doable but probably not for very long. Both for similar reasons.


Things be changing more than advertised?

Playing an unlicensed criminal in Tuluk is not really any different than playing a normal criminal in Allanak, except you don't have an obvious safe haven within the city walls. In some ways I'd argue Tuluk is more criminal friendly, even leaving licenses aside.

It's all been very playable ever since crimcode was disabled at night years ago. Once you play around with it a bit and figure out what you can and can't get away with, it's very doable.

[janeshephard]

Yes. I'd rather they were kept in the dark but only stepped in to check licensing when they suspect the rules were broken, than to make them always agree to contracts. I'll be frank. I think you'll see a steep drop in artistry if they get turned into automaton that must accept every contract their offered.

I'll be frank, too...I doubt that it can get much lower or less utilized than it is now.  I'm willing to accept that if that turns out to be the case and adjust it farther down the road.

I like that you realize this. Can I open a request to northern staff and address this point with some IC information?

Thanks.

It's all been very playable ever since crimcode was disabled at night years ago. Once you play around with it a bit and figure out what you can and can't get away with, it's very doable.

I -totally- did not know crim code was disabled at night. Is this even true?

[hyzhenhok]

I -totally- did not know crim code was disabled at night. Is this even true?

Yes. Most city rooms in the game have virtual NPCs who will witness you committing a crime if you aren't discrete. This virtual NPC crime reporting is removed from most outdoor streets during night hours (late at night and before dusk). This was implemented way back in 2009 or something.

It should probably be mentioned in the Criminal and/or Crime and Punishment documents if it isn't.

Edit: Found it. http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,32997.0.html

First thing, I have not altered the way the code works if there is a soldier/templar nearby when a crime takes place. This code alters the way the populated room flag (that is virtual eyes and ears of the populace that would report a crime to the authorities) behaves under certain conditions.

Before if a room was marked populated it always was considered 'populated' and crimes would be reported.

This change adds the following conditions:

o Visibility must not be extremely poor (sandstorm, darkness, etc... note indoors rooms such as taverns are never affected by this)
o The time is not during night-time hours. When it is 'late at night' or 'near dawn', the populated flags no longer apply (unless again, the room is flagged indoors as well).

[Blur]

It always felt like playing an unlicensed criminal was almost similar to trying to play a defiler in the middle of the city. Doable but probably not for very long. Both for similar reasons.


Things be changing more than advertised?

Playing an unlicensed criminal in Tuluk is not really any different than playing a normal criminal in Allanak, except you don't have an obvious safe haven within the city walls. In some ways I'd argue Tuluk is more criminal friendly, even leaving licenses aside.

It's all been very playable ever since crimcode was disabled at night years ago. Once you play around with it a bit and figure out what you can and can't get away with, it's very doable.

I feel it would be a different situation in Tuluk than Allanak and it has nothing to do with crimcode or even lack of rinth. Still though, this probably too IC, and there was already a warning about that. Besides I could totally be wrong anyways.  

[Dar]

If a legionnaire is a shadow artist, then he should temporarily be dismissed during his job. Otherwise, the crim code will be the greatest Shadow Artist of all!

Personally, if I was ...  anybody, with money and some kind of position that allows taking in partisans. I'm getting myself a whole crew of shadow artists. Some of them, will love me so much, they'll remain journeyman forever. Some of them will one day become masters, but I will know their styles and techniques 'so well', that ... I'll be the most difficult person for them to pull a job on. Even if they've got free entrance to my compounds, or whatever.

I will "love" this situation. My rival comes to the Templar and requests a contract against my house. The Templar groans and says that all currently suitable shadow artists for the job 'work' for that house and are not masters.

I will also probably try to corrupt them all and somehow create a hidden method of communication that allows the artist to tell me about his jobs in one shape, or another.

But anyway, that's what I think I would do.

Some thoughts about killing templars, or going outside of the system.

Mobsters meet up in a sikrit meeting and decide that their capo has been taking up the spot too long. If he is to die, one of the mobsters will move up and the rest will pledge allegiance to him. Do they then go and shoot the guy to pieces? Hell no. They're all part of the same family, they cant shoot each other! NO! They will contract out "outside" help. From another family, from another city even. People without connections to the mobsters completely. This ... can ... work ... absolutely ... the same in Tuluk.

To be promoted up via murder method, you 'gotta' think outside the box. Mental equilibristics is paramount to this. Faithful Lady is tightening her grip too much, forcing the tradesmen to leave the city in search of fresher air elsewhere. This saps the coin from the coffers and makes it difficult to upkeep the standing legions. Words and bribing do not work. She is not disloyal, but ... old age made her senile. By the power granted to me by Muk Utep's wisdom, I must defend Tuluk from her senility, even if it means she must die.

Here's an interesting scenario.

A person comes to the Templar and offers a contract of bringing fear to the populace and helping them understand the necessity of the Legion. To do this, he wishes a shadow artist to mug and rob people, selling their belongings and bringing the money to the contractor. The amount of money is exactly 2x of the fee the Templar requests.

[Sayyadina]

There seems to be agreement that the current "system" doesn't work...

I've played in tuluk as a fairly well known assassin. Nobody wanted anyone dead, nobody even tasked him to spy on their rivals.

Thanks, I'm glad some former assassins are chiming in...it got a little lonely, no?

I've played a Tuluki shadow artist thief. I simply didn't have anything to do once I'd mastered my basic skills. I had to find an influential patron to get involved in anything. And as a result, I felt that playing a sneaky in Tuluk wasn't any bit different than playing one in Allanak. The docs had lied to me. No one bothered with that bit of Tuluki flavor. There was no mechanic for me to develop a reputation, no simple mechanic for me to obtain contracts without engaging in normal clan play (which sucked because I had erratic play times at the time) and choosing a side. It wasn't what I had expected for the character, and it was boring.

Namely the current "system" is underutilized...

What you're asking for is in the system today, but it's also a system today that is underused and seemingly prone to corruption; these docs would fix that.

...

I kinda have to laugh that we're discussing the intricacies of whether we have enough role depth available for people to play lawful criminals in Tuluk.  Honestly, not many people are doing it, nor are they really using the current system.

So the current "system" has failed and seemingly needs to be replaced with a new system that is stacked full of mandates to force more use of the new system compared to the current "system."  However, I think this is based on a false assumption that the current "system" isn't working because of a lack of mandates.  I think the current "system" doesn't work because no one knows about it!  I'll bet that the majority of posters in the thread were unaware that templars can currently confidentially broker contracts between an agent and a "shadow artist."  I didn't know until fairly recently.  So is the failure of the current "system" one of design or of implementation?  There are no detailed public documents about the current "system," even.  Of course it won't work.  IMO "shadow artists" are currently underutilized not because they're refusing jobs or they're overly loyal, but because most players are oblivious and uncertain about what the current "system" is and what the expectations are for their roles, especially for contracting agents and "shadow artists."  This uncertainty might manifest as reluctance or excess loyalty, but those are symptoms and not causes.

The new documentation is stacked full of mandates for the contracting agent, for the templars, and for the "shadow artists," and it looks to me that the mandates are the biggest source of concern for those responding in this thread.  I know those many mandates are my biggest personal concern.

So those of us that are concerned are being asked to trust in the new documents and to give it a shot:

No, what I'm saying is that we can accept that players are biased as a whole, and instead of pretending it isn't the case, recognize it, minimize it where we can, and balance it where we can't so that at least the playing field is level from an OOC standpoint.

I don't think we're pretending it isn't the case that players can be biased.  I think we're asking that players play above that and roleplay since it's the first rule of the game.  If it doesn't work or seems horrible to play, we can change it, but I'd rather give the playerbase the opportunity to try something out that is different rather than just assume "well...this will never work because players can't handle it."

But I think what many of us are asking is to be trusted in our roleplay to try out a documented system of "shadow artistry" without all the mandates, and in response we're being told "this will never work because players can't handle it" without mandates.

I like the detail of the new system and other features as I've previously pointed out, and I'm confident we would see increased utilization if we were given a chance to try it out without all the mandates.  And if it doesn't work because no one uses the system without the ironclad guarantees provided by the myriad mandates, what will have been lost by trying it out for a while?  I personally would be more accepting of the mandate-heavy regime if I had seen a documented but mandate-light system fail after all this public discussion.

However, if the mandate-heavy system is implemented and we see increased utilization, how will we know whether the increased utilization is due to the mandates or due to the mere fact that we finally have a publicly documented system that everyone involved knows about and understands?

[Riev]

It really does concern me that a lot of the arguments are revolving around people saying "what if a Chosen wants to kill another Chosen" or "If one Templar can't kill another Templar..."

Seriously. That is nitpicking of the utmost. The current system doesn't work. Few people understand it, fewer use it. Tuluk has legalized crime, but there aren't many that play there, Leaders or otherwise, that really understand how to use it to the fullest extent. That is why I mentioned earlier that I hope the Agents taking out the Contracts can eventually get some ideas on how or what things can be done.

The way I see it, the "major" things people would go for are assassination, theft, burglary. These three things can be done in a "subtle" and "masterful" way in the vein of Tuluki society. But what of the other crimes? Mugging, getting a few guys to beat down some well-to-do Merchant who is big for his britches, publically defacing someone's work (statues, buildings, etc)

Maybe just a page of examples, even eventually, of what could happen, so people have ideas. I think the thought that "Tuluk is too subtle for overt acts of Artistry" is so prevalent that the system will eventually turn back into what we have now. Nobody making Contracts because there are few who can perform the job, because the only Contracts people have are "Just kill this guy".


As an addendum, there might be a look at PC->PC theft as well. How exactly do you steal someone's prized and favored weapon, if they never take it off? (Not REALLY asking, there are definite ways, but with how the code works and how HYPER VIGILANT PCs are... just think about it.)

[Outrider]

I'll admit up front to not having deeply read the full 10 pages (though I plan to work through that).
I'll also start out by expressing gratitude to Nyr for giving this discussion the attention it has received.

While I don't yet know if I like the proposed change - I agree that there is need.  If for nothing else than to quell the desperately OOC "rarr! thief!" rage that leeches into IC play. 

Some initial gut reactions:
*  For existing accomplished master (not necessarily Master) thiefses, resplendent in licenses and exquisite in ability I would hope there would either be a type of grandfathering in of PCs who have been developed under radically different circumstances and expectations or some other way of "opting out" of the new system without too many character-ending consequences. 

          ^As an addition to that, my hope is that this would be introduced as a new thing going forward in Tuluk rather than a retcon.   I think I did pick up on it being the former, though, in one of the scan-throughs.

*  While I read in several places of the documents guiding templars, I have played this game too long to have much faith in the power of documentation to guide positions of power.  Even my experience with the existing system has had me in some rather head-scratching situations wondering if I was reading the same docs.

*  Do any other Master ranks within the city answer directly (and with forced compliance) to the whims and machinations of the templarate?   The protection of the Shadow is a thin and brightly lit illusion.   Even hidden license inks are whispered and murmured about in the best of times and even broadcast (incomprehensibly so) as an insult by those who should know better (see rar! thief! rage above).   The reality is that the playerbase is simply not big enough to hide in, the OOC thief rage too intense not to leech into game play, and templars too ephemeral/inexperienced to be fully trusted (by the player of a hypothetical Master thief).

*  It is hard to play a burg/pickpkt/ass well.   A new look at the guidelines & practices of licensed skullduggery is welcomed.   Knee-jerk reaction to change like this is bound to be negative. . . I'm going to simmer in this sauce a bit more, read Nyr's responses a little deeper, and see what positive feelings bubble up.   

[Quirk]

Maybe just a page of examples, even eventually, of what could happen, so people have ideas. I think the thought that "Tuluk is too subtle for overt acts of Artistry" is so prevalent that the system will eventually turn back into what we have now. Nobody making Contracts because there are few who can perform the job, because the only Contracts people have are "Just kill this guy".

Riev, I think it might be worth reading through Nyr's posts on Catching Up: Tuluk. A quote that may interest you:

Old Tuluki subtlety may be on its deathbed.  Recent events have helped propel it along, and docs will eventually flesh it out more as existing characters settle in to the new swing of things but:

Tulukis don't need to dance around every single issue in the most intricate way possible in order to play a Tuluki properly.  It shouldn't take four kinds of euphemisms to discuss every issue, and behind closed doors when no one is there to see or hear you, maybe you can let your SubtletyGuard^TM down long enough to speak frankly.  There are absolutely times when overt, chilling action is needed...in order so that it may be covered up later.

[Law&Order]

6.  If this system is going to be reliant on status and power brokers willing to take the chances, isn't it perhaps time to open up the Surif on a much broader level than is currently being seen in Tuluk?

Frankly, we've been running full steam since an HRPT 2 months ago; we can't change everything overnight even if we do have plans.  Yes.  It would be nice to have another Surif noble, and we'll put up a call, but it might be a bit longer.

I respect that stance of it being necessary to get the bigger pieces in place for the HRPT so the trickle down changes can happen, but there's a major flaw in the "system" be it a new one or an old one, when the positions of influence to guide and direct the system aren't in place, the system will fail because of lack of interest.  This has been referenced previously, http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=cvdf0m5gtnt0eboih29131qus2&topic=46143.msg776056#msg776056 and as a player who has come and gone and come back to playing in Tuluk, we'll say over the last three years, all there really is present is "more of the same".  And I'm not casting doubt on the players who are already there guiding things socially, but there comes a time when new blood is necessary.  I won't say that I've seen all of the attempts to sprinkle new blood into the shark infested waters, but the few I have seen have had almost no longevity and activity, which damages any credibility that a system in place might have.  It's simply impossible to get your footing for the new or old systems without the bedrock to build off of, and in this case, the bedrock is a decent number of active nobles, representation from regular playing GMH and yes, templars.

I think that the old system, largely unknown and untalked about, so therefore underutilized, would have been fine had there been someone pushing it from behind the scenes, and the new system could be equally promising in the same contest, but without the people who work the puppet strings, nobody will want to play puppets.  Lack of information (DOCS!) and direction (VIP Characters) make any and all systems flawed and hard to play in.  So making up an entirely new system that puts more power into a few pcs, in this case templars, it still doesn't fix the root issue for any changes that will be put into place in Tuluk, and that is....

Nobody will care if it's Noble House A vs Noble House B again, for three straight years, so there will be very few bards in the City, since there are few options on who to impress, and with fewer bards there will be fewer people pissed off by said bards, and with fewer GMH representatives who have longevity and vested interest in the City, there are fewer venues for lower ranked players to get jobs from, which keeps them from spending in the markets, crafting, foraging, buying things from PC traders, and yes...having things that other people want to kill, steal and burgle for...which makes Shadow Artists pointless since they would otherwise only be doing...the exact same thing they are doing now in the new system, except being told to do it by templarate middle-(wo)men.  Which leaves a game which is turning out a higher who list than it has ever seen before with one of it's two MAJOR centers of virtual population floundering...with a shiny, new system that ends up looking just as uninteresting and flawed as the previous one. 

Don't micromanage the system and put barriers and restrictions in place to streamline something that wasn't really broken, just underutilized. 

The HRPT's are shaking things up from the top down...why not make the bold statement of shaking things in the middle a bit too?

[Patuk]

You know, for a city where people live much longer than in Allanak, I'm not entirely certain if a lack of people and longevity is the problem here.

[janeshephard]

It's simply impossible to get your footing for the new or old systems without the bedrock to build off of, and in this case, the bedrock is a decent number of active nobles, representation from regular playing GMH and yes, templars.

We need active nobles and templars and good documentation.

These roles are difficult to pull off 'properly' and include other players.

I'll probably app the next noble role to 'be the change.'

[ShaLeah]

You know, for a city where people live much longer than in Allanak, I'm not entirely certain if a lack of people and longevity is the problem here.

Then what is it then? Is making the system even harder and less welcoming to enjoy the answer?

I'd love it if there were more shadow artists, or usage thereof, it should be a relatively easy process and I think it's so ICly restrictive and OOCly unappealing that if getting more active shadow artists is the goal, the changes will not make that happen. They would be better shadow artists though, so I can see the appeal of that.

[Nyr]

Also, are there any guidelines for patrons (for shadow artists, mainly)? For example, if I really like Amos but he isn't my patron now, can I short-term offer him patronage, for the length of a single job? That way I know who can be hired, and I can talk to him about it. Oooor, is there a minimum time limit required for being a patron to a specific shadow artist?

Hmm.  No, there are not.  Should there be?  That sounds like it's a hole you just found.  "I can't pick who I want for a job...but I can engage in a short term patronage relationship with this guy who I know is awesome...so I'll use him for one job...and get around that rule, because he's my guy!"  You guys are sneaky.

Sneakies. In the Shadow artist thread.

>.>

<.<

Are we going to be fined because we were caught?


...More seriously. Is that hole a hole, or a feature? I mean on one hand, you could be pressured into accepting more jobs because a noble wants specifically you...but you get more money for that anyway, and you can chat about shit, which sounds more plotty. On the other hand, it might be harder to get long-term patronage, if someone can just claim you short term. But you're still doing the jobs anyway, even if you aren't someone's partistan, in theory... Hmmm. This should be considered further.

Not sure yet.  That might seem surprising, but this is one of the few cases where we can show what we're planning to do...not spoil IC stuff to any extremes (i.e., this isn't like saying "so what do you guys think about the Hlum")...and then adjust based on feedback and criticism.  Part of throwing these documentation pieces out there in advance of implementation was to find the holes (liked, disliked, intended, or unintended) NOW rather than after implementation.  While the implementation will be in-character and any changes to the system can be developed in-character, it is best to get us on the best footing initially rather than see such a thing sputter along for months while it gets hacked apart and changed to fix noticed problems.

[hyzhenhok]

The system is broken, not just underutilized. Under the current system Templars have the ability to act as proxies and give contracts to licensed thieves and assassins, and I seriously doubt the reason it isn't used is that nobody has thought to try it. The problem is the templars cannot reliably deliver the service, because the licensed artists currently owe nothing to the templarate after they get their license. Instead they become loyal servants of X leader PC, and of course nobody outside of X leader has any real chance of hiring them to do something cool. And why would X leader ever risk trying to hire someone outside of their House for risky, potentially embarrassing jobs?

The end result is shadow artists rarely if ever get contracts; they just become another type of house servant. Which is boring. If you think lack of trust or lack of shadow artists will be a problem with the proposed system, I can guarantee you it's an even bigger problem with the current system. These new docs succeed in a few very important things:

• Opportunity cost for artists to get licensed. Paying some coins for a license has never been a significant cost. Requiring licensed artists to do jobs when called upon in exchange for state sanction? Now there's an interesting trade-off.
• Shadow artists are required to work more closely with the templarate, so the templarate can get a much clearer picture of who is capable of what. It's all well and good to say they can already serve as middlemen, but to be frank, I bet most templars never see an artist again after they license them.
• System opened up for people who don't have the time or resources to have a personal shadow artist on retainer, or whose clans do not have any position for such PCs in their ranks. Now that you know 1) the templars will actually be keeping tabs on the city's shadow artists and 2) eventually a shadow artist will be forced to take your contract, and 3) the docs say if a templar betrays your contract, they are in big doo doo, it suddenly becomes much more realistic to use the system.

[janeshephard]

Instead they become loyal servants of X leader PC, and of course nobody outside of X leader has any real chance of hiring them to do something cool. And why would X leader ever risk trying to hire someone outside of their House for risky, potentially embarrassing jobs?

I would hire people outside my House to do stuff so it doesn't lead back to me.

[Nyr]

I think this is an interesting idea.

But I really am not seeing how the Templars are to be "kept in line" The entire idea that you "don't cut off the hand that feeds you" has not, to date, been backed up in the game at all by Templars and I don't see that changing.

For this particular issue, I think that the problem might be that the playerbase at large hasn't seen the beta "So You Want To Rule The Artists" document that outlines this from the templar's perspective.  It doesn't disclose anything secret, it's just how the templars would be running the system.  Is that something that might be valuable to review, even if it's not committed permanently to public documentation (i.e., put up for viewing briefly)?  You're saying you don't see how the templars are to be kept in line or how they're supposed to run the program, and in general you're right--but that doesn't mean there's nothing keeping them in line. 

In the past, in either city, I have had or been around PCs who were willing to pay Templars, in coins, services etc, and to do so on a scheduled basis, very large amounts, amounts I dare say that are higher, by a great margin I am sure, then what Templars stand to gain in this system and still they usually ignored the money are killed or tried to kill.

Then, and it may have been mentioned, but what about things that go against the Templars personal interest? Even if for some odd reason they don't just disappear the guy that wants Poofy the Templars favorite bard killed, what is to stop the Templar from just assigning a shadow artist that simply could not pull it off or manipulating the system in other ways?

That's also covered briefly in the doc I mentioned above.

And, assuming things were put into place to satisfy anybody's worries on the above questions and others...then why in hell would anybody ever want to play a Templar in the north...might as well re-open nenyuk for play at that point, it would be more fun.

Then I'm not clear on what you mean exactly.  You are pointing out that you want to know what is in place to encourage this practice among templars, then following that up with "but that would make being a templar boring and unfun."  Which is it that is more important in your opinion--making the system work better than it does now, or making it more fun for templars than it is now?  We're trying to consider both, too, but I'm not sure where you're sitting on it.

[hyzhenhok]

Instead they become loyal servants of X leader PC, and of course nobody outside of X leader has any real chance of hiring them to do something cool. And why would X leader ever risk trying to hire someone outside of their House for risky, potentially embarrassing jobs?

I would hire people outside my House to do stuff so it doesn't lead back to me.

Really? Even when every other skilled, licensed artist is already employed by another House or organization? The way Tuluk works, if you're good at something you don't tend to stay independent for long.

[janeshephard]

The way Tuluk works, if you're good at something you don't tend to stay independent for long.

We must be playing two different muds

[Patuk]

Instead they become loyal servants of X leader PC, and of course nobody outside of X leader has any real chance of hiring them to do something cool. And why would X leader ever risk trying to hire someone outside of their House for risky, potentially embarrassing jobs?

I would hire people outside my House to do stuff so it doesn't lead back to me.

Really? Even when every other skilled, licensed artist is already employed by another House or organization? The way Tuluk works, if you're good at something you don't tend to stay independent for long.

looooooooooooooooool

[janeshephard]

Pretty much what Patuk said. It does change over time, but there are periods where everyone you meet is an indie in Tuluk. I imagine it's the same for Allanak.

I regard that as a problem, to be honest. While it's not directly relevant to this discussion, I think 'status' needs to be a much higher priority in Tuluk. There needs to be stronger IC motivations to work for GMHs or Nobles in Tuluk.

You know. Not the usual "do I get to leave the gates? oh ok i'm in then."

[hyzhenhok]

...um, yeah. I'm pretty sure if it were so easy to get independent, licensed shadow artists to do your dirty work right now, staff wouldn't be trying to overhaul the system.

But what do I know, I stopped trying to play criminals in Tuluk because my licensed master pickpocket had nothing to do except join a clan, and haven't played there in a while.

If you guys are talking about the scores of indie hunters in Tuluk, those are not really relevant to the topic at hand.

[Molten Heart]

The greatest obstacle to the whole "Shadow Artist System" is the unavailability or lack of capable shadow artists.  In a system where failure is the only way to learn and failure is illegal.... that seems to be a problem.  If there were some system or organization that helped to cultivate and develop young shadow artist talent, I Think that alone would go a long way to helping develop the art of crime in Tuluk.  The documentation is great and people can argue about the finer details of the organization until they are blue int he face, but if the role of the shadow artist is too difficult and/or unrewarding, people just won't play those roles.

[Nyr]

Murder. Corruption. Betrayal.
Player driven plots.


First, I'd like somethings answered definitively, instead of implied at.

I think that it has been answered definitively here and elsewhere, but I'll be happy to go over it again and go into more detail.

-Why is this change going in place?

Early last year we started moving clan documentation to clan discussion boards.  This serves a few purposes:  it allows protection of the documentation for a clan by removing people from its access after they leave the forum, it removes the need for "clan documentation requests" (because a forum join = a clan documentation request--not that we have a lot, but it removes a small amount of workload), and it allows nearly instantaneous updating and feedback to documentation by staff (whereas before we needed to have admin+ code staff to do anything for website docs that were password protected).  This also meant that in the case of severely old documentation, it could be updated (why not do it while we're moving things?) and it could take into account feedback of people in those groups.  Around the middle of last year, I came to be the administrator of Tuluk and its clans, so we started working on that area and got Bards done.  The process began on the templarate and noble houses, but we realized a lot of structural stuff just wasn't working that well, either, and it would need to be reviewed.  It isn't enough to change one thing at a time if the culture of the city wasn't backing up each individual group and vice versa.  So that began the process everyone is seeing this summer and so on in Tuluk. 

One area in particular for review was the artist system.  The artist system as reviewed by staff does not seem to work from our perspective.  It exists in law as how things are handled but it is not particularly well-documented, nor is it particularly well-utilized.  Two issues I pointed out earlier (reluctant artists and loyal artists) resulted in two problems:  jobs that could have been handled by artists weren't being handled at all, and artists were being capitalized on by individual groups instead of the city as a whole.  Bards we changed away from that and got it so anyone could become a Master Bard if they put in the time and energy, but we made it clear that the higher reaches of bardic rank equaled dedication to the CIRCLE rather than to a patron.  This allows dedicated, achievement-oriented players to focus on long-lived roles that were not necessarily sponsored that got to reach high levels of influence and power that are built in a way that are not game-breaking.  We'd like to see the same sort of thing happen to artists, but we don't think that happens unless master level artists have incentive to break free from organizational ties and become servants of the city-state's needs as a whole rather than servants of a patron's interests.

-Is this system new, or has it always been the case, IC?

It is new, the first page of this thread and a few other posts inside the thread explain that it will supplant existing documentation.  The documentation itself (the beta form) even says that it changes IC after 1628 (recent events), so there's no way it could have "always been the case IC".

-All inked citizens, other then templars, are able to become shadow artists?

All inked citizens that are deemed worthy of handling it--it's possible that people might not make the initial cut to become an inked shadow artist because they are deemed too risky a choice for the entire system.

Second, I have a few questions about things that have been said, and I'd like to put some thoughts out.

What you're asking for is in the system today, but it's also a system today that is underused and seemingly prone to corruption; these docs would fix that.

It's not prone to corruption.  It's "seemingly" prone to corruption.  This would remove the seemingly entirely and make it not prone to corruption.  Why do we want it to be less corrupt?  Not sure.  I just want it to be used if it's there.  If it requires it to look like it's a system that works, and requires some restrictions initially, I'm all for trying it.

So you, an admin (once a temporary producer) of the staff, aren't sure why you want a IG system to be -less- corrupt, got it.

Correct.  I (an admin, and once a producer) of the staff, am not sure why I want an IG system to be less corrupt.  I'd like to make the IG system used more than it is now.  The biggest sticking point I've seen in occasional complaints, reports, and mentionables here and there on the board and in-game are that the appearance of corruption in this particular system stymies and keeps it from being used--therefore I feel it is important to get rid of the appearance of that corruption so that the system ends up being used.  If the goal is to create a system that doesn't work, is eminently corruptible in view if not in fact (and perception is often more important than reality), and prevents murdering, corrupting, and betrayal in OTHER AREAS of Tuluk, then we can just leave it the way it is now.  We don't have to make any changes if we want it to continue to not work and be undocumented.

You also aren't "all for trying it" you -are- trying it. Unless your going to rephrase what you said.

I said all for trying it because I am all for trying it.  That was in reference to the previous statement:  I'm all for trying a system out that has MORE restrictions to reduce the appearance of corruption in order to make the system work...because if it DOESN'T work after we try it, we can find reason to change it afterwards.  I am not trying it yet because the documentation is not live, and we're getting feedback from players (including you) on this area, reviewing what seems to work and what seems to not work about the system.

these are not active documents (so you do not need to use them in-game yet).

templars will be above the system, outside of the system, and brokering the system.
Their task is not to manipulate, at least not in THIS area.

Templars won't screw you over with this system.

They are not doing jobs for templars. Templars might also be the hiring agent at time

we are not forbidding templars from killing anyone.

Now consider a
scenario where templars run the system by these rules.

I assume this is part of the not corrupt system. We will take it on faith that templars will do this task, flawlessly at all times, and not manipulate the system.

You already take it on faith that plenty of roles do certain tasks that they are supposed to do.  You don't question that a Great Merchant House sponsored role does things for that Great Merchant House, like handle sales for a particular area...do you?  We are saying that this is part of a templar's job in Tuluk, and that this system is something considered traditional (though expanded) in Tuluk, so people expect it to work.

Just like an artist would have to do their job, a templar would have to do their job--which means making the system work.  Sure, they might HAVE IC biases.
Acting on them by manipulating this brokerage system would be foolhardy.

A system not corrupt, at all, because something is foolhardy.

In regards to one's social status, which can be life or death in Tuluk, the docs say this...
"The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule."

THIS SYSTEM IS NOT JUST FOR KILLING PEOPLE,
IT'S FOR LOTS OF STUFF, ALL HAVING TO DO WITH SENDING A MESSAGE.

It's not very Tuluki to mug someone, but if you need to send a message to
someone that's encroaching on your turf, hiring an
artist to go beat the shit out that person sure sounds like fun.

Would one actually use the shadow brokers and artists to do this?

Yes, that's part of the open-ended nature of these contracts.  If it sends a message to someone, it more than likely is something a shadow artist can be used for.

But besides love, there are lots of other viable reasons I can see an artist wanting to refuse -- most of these will probably be far more common anyway.

• The contract is beyond their skill and they know it, and they don't want to risk failure or death.
• The contract is beneath their skill and isn't a challenge, and they don't want to waste their time
• The reward offered isn't worth the risk, or isn't enough to cover expenses
• They're too busy with other work

1)  Templar shouldn't be giving a contract to someone that can't do it.
2)  Artist shouldn't have that kind of attitude; if they got asked to do it is because they were the best one for the job (or the only PC available?)
3)  This should never, ever, ever be an issue; the reward should always be worth the risk and also be enough to cover expenses
4)  Not being able to refuse is not the same as not being able to delay or negotiate details.

On point number 2.
What if the artist is an elf?

On stealing from elven roleplay...
" If an elf sees something that belongs to someone else, and provides moderate challenge for them, they want to take it - simply for the sake of taking it."

An elf seeing something and wanting to take it because it provides a moderate challenge for them is their cultural mindset.
An elf getting a task to do something they already do as part of their cultural mindset (stealing) might well seem like a kind of theft:

To an elf, theft is: "Taking anything that would not be given if the possessor knew all of the facts." 

The elf is taking money from an unknown benefactor through the templarate.  The unknown benefactor may not even know they are getting an elven artist...and if they did know all of the facts, do you really think they'd want an ELF handling their task, regardless of what it is?  Probably not.  So in that regard, the elf should be pleased as punch.  However, an elf will more than likely never make it to Master level, just like an elven bard might not make it past the rank of Seeker--at those higher levels, EVERYONE is expected to abandon loyalty to anything but the greater good of their Circle or the City.

Similar questions are springing to mind now.
What if the only artist available for a certain task isn't human?
A dwarf with a focus to work around. An elf with a tribe to work around.

The dwarf and the elf PCs both chose this path with this in mind, therefore they're responsible for the difficulty of the roleplay involved.  I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly...if a dwarf has a focus, that affects their life completely, to be sure...but unless becoming an artist is against their focus or would impact it negatively, I doubt that is a problem.  Yes, an elf may have a tribe, but an elf with a tribe may still do work at the lower and middle levels of artistry without working against their tribe (in this case that'd be their "patron").

I hope that covers your questions.

[Nyr]

I rather not see legionnaires be able to be shadow artists too. It just feels too unfair.


However, considering what I have seen in the past those may just be my feelings.  

That's not explicitly stated but generally that is expected to be the case based on what we have been talking about on staff side.  Legion soldiers are fairly exempt from the system and also have some amount of criminal immunity.  Since we can't (with current code) easily turn that on and off, it's best to find IC reason to restrict them from the system and instead use them to police it under the guidance of their templar and military rank overlords.

That might change, but that is what we are looking at now.