Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[Taven]

I'll cede in the whole black and white they're really untouchable thought and change to a they're NOT SO entirely untouchable frame of mind, but in a land where the social classes -are- much less able to be crossed, how much would YOU be willing to risk as a favor for a commoner?

So instead, you're arguing that a commoner should be legally allowed to kill a templar? Or am I misunderstanding?

Because I don't think some commoner should ever be legally able to kill a templar.

As to templars killing templars, it sounds like there will be ways to do that, but that it won't be allowed for in this system, there will be other ways to pursue it (based on Nyr's posts).

[Wish]

That's my point. I don't think it's very Tuluki like to hire outside your homeland. I'd think it as a major act of treason, and isn't it all about appearances?

Isn't it already a major act of treason to WANT TO KILL A TEMPLAR?

I mean if I'm a respected member of northern society and I wanted to kill a Faithful, I probably don't give a flying fuck about what Muk Utep thinks of me and give way more fucks about doing the job quickly and efficiently and hoping it never leads back to me.

If I'm not a respected member of northern society and I want to kill a Faithful, I still give zero fucks about Muk Utep and am probably planning on leaving town once the job's been done.

lol, yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking here...

I'll try and bring to light some shades of grey that really allow the beholder to judge between sanctioned and not sanctioned, why, in some instances, murdering a templar might not be so treasonous, besides the OBVIOUS if they're summoned by Muk into a locked room sands their guards.

Murder: Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder)  and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder)

Murder bad, right? Except in Tuluk, where murder is an art and where the only thing that makes it bad is a set of laws set forth by the Sun King. The same can be said for burglaries. In Tuluk these things are sanctioned. We're on the same page, right? Good.

So what makes murdering a lawmaker treasonous? The thoughts, the act?

If a Templar wants to murder another Templar, that's treason too? How about Legion to Legion? Right, so really the only thing that would make a Tuluki citizen treasonous is not -thinking- they hate a Templar, it's acting against it? 

As a commoner who hates templar X and decide to take it upon myself to get rid of it and commit said treason, I may, being the devout Tuluki that I am, beg the Sun King for forgiveness, castigate myself for going against my King's rule and a shitload more of RP besides running away. I could also not feel treasonous at all, if that mate of mine went into the Heart with the Templar and didn't come out, I might feel justified and vindictive, and separate said Templar from the all knowing Sun King in order to keep my delusion of faithful citizen. 

So yes, the act would be treasonous, but that doesn't and shouldn't go hand in hand with -not giving a fuck- about my Godking. You want a black and white statement keeping in with the rigidity of these new and intricate nuances of shadow artistry? Plotting against the Sun King, treason. There better be a difference between THAT and anything under Him being put into the "just as bad" category.

Feeling justified and acute, poetic love for your city and His Radiance,  you think:
                           "It's just a litttttttttttttttle treason, not like I'm plotting to kill the Sun King Himself."


I'll cede in the whole black and white they're really untouchable thought and change to a they're NOT SO entirely untouchable frame of mind, but in a land where the social classes -are- much less able to be crossed, how much would YOU be willing to risk as a favor for a commoner?

Ok, that's true.  Just because you want to kill a Faithful doesn't mean you hate the Sun King - maybe you feel like the templar you want dead is disgracing the Sun King badly, and that Muk Utep WANTS you to kill them - you're his secret vigilante or something.  You are justice.  You are the night.

That doesn't change the fact that it's against the law, does it?  So maybe you go outside the "system" for a way to kill them, for the Greater Good.

Anyway, there's a shitload of ways to do it and to roleplay it and there's a million different possibilities.  Generally speaking, I'm not going to complain that an avenue for killing templars isn't explicitly built into this "legal crime system" that is arbitrated by templars.  I'd say that in most situations, going to templars about killing other templars is more or less not going to be the best plan.  

[Malken]

Templars are the LAW. They are the ones chosen by Muk Utep personally to make sure that His Will Be Done.

In the eyes of the Templars, if you are asking to murder a Templar, then you are probably asking to murder Muk Utep himself.

No commoners or nobles should ever have the right to "legally" lay a hand on Muk Utep's Chosen Champions, since they are a representation of him, and they can do no wrong in the eyes of the law.

If someone comes up to the Templar and demands that another Templar be killed, then it is probably that Templar's duty to report you right away, disappear you, and then if your reason made any sense to them, /perhaps/ they will investigate it, or better yet, report it to a higher authority than themselves.

At least that's how I see it.

[Desertman]

In the Sa'Kage you can not contract a wetboy to kill another one of The Nine.

The Nine are the leaders of the Sa'Kage.

Templars.

The Shinga is the leader of the Sa'Kage and leader of The Nine. For our purposes. Muk Utep.

So no, you can't contract a shadow artist to kill a Templar.

Don't argue with Brent Weeks.

[Quirk]

Thinking about it, I actually would like a little wiggle room for templar corruption...

...in the context of them having to adhere to some reasonably detailed laws designed to set out good practice, and having to justify how they followed procedure when a contract fails to their peers or superiors.

I think it would be great for them to have to tick every item off the list in such a way that they could sabotage the contract only through decisions which they could successfully defend later. ("All right, the terms of the hit specify a journeyman artist... Amos is falling apart fast and turning to drink, and no-one's given him a contract in more than a year, but he is still a journeyman... he used to be good though, I can claim I didn't know about his decline...")

Actually breaking the secrecy of the contract and warning someone who is a target should be very serious, templar disappearance territory, though, IMO.

Also, I think it's fine to have killing templars remain illegal, and not be accessible through this system. Templars should handle templar problems within their Orders, and anyone else killing a templar should be damn well careful not to be seen with the blood on their hands.

[Quirk]

Also, I think the discussion that's being had here, trying to examine all the angles and work out the bugs before the docs go live, is awesome. Big thanks to Nyr for engaging in such a major way.

[ShaLeah]

"deemed worthy" is there as an out for templars so they don't have to ink people that are obviously bad for the job.  You can get a new PC inked up pretty quickly if need be already, and this system wouldn't be much different.

But a newbie-friendly thing, hrm...that's worth thinking about.

Would you consider allowing shadow artists to get inked prior to entering the game world much like you let filthy gicks get a gem in Nak?

I'll cede in the whole black and white they're really untouchable thought and change to a they're NOT SO entirely untouchable frame of mind, but in a land where the social classes -are- much less able to be crossed, how much would YOU be willing to risk as a favor for a commoner?

So instead, you're arguing that a commoner should be legally allowed to kill a templar? Or am I misunderstanding?

Because I don't think some commoner should ever be legally able to kill a templar.

As to templars killing templars, it sounds like there will be ways to do that, but that it won't be allowed for in this system, there will be other ways to pursue it (based on Nyr's posts).

Yes, I think it should be allowed, never "legal" but doable. It's not legal in Allanak, but you can still get it done. Even on the off chance if I get that Chosen to be on my side and take out a contract on a Templar, how are we guaranteed they'd take the contract to begin with? Not stop it, not just take my sid and leave me hanging. Sun King forbid there be corruption, or betrayal.

Templars are the LAW. They are the ones chosen by Muk Utep personally to make sure that His Will Be Done.

In the eyes of the Templars, if you are asking to murder a Templar, then you are probably asking to murder Muk Utep himself.

No commoners or nobles should ever have the right to "legally" lay a hand on Muk Utep's Chosen Champions, since they are a representation of him, and they can do no wrong in the eyes of the law.

If someone comes up to the Templar and demands that another Templar be killed, then it is probably that Templar's duty to report you right away, disappear you, and then if your reason made any sense to them, /perhaps/ they will investigate it, or better yet, report it to a higher authority than themselves.

At least that's how I see it.

(As a side note, this brings up the possibility of the permanent noble agent patron.  Nobles trump pretty much everyone.  Suck up to that noble and they can get you a contract on pretty much everyone.  Nobles could use that to their advantage, thereby again increasing the view of a noble in the eyes of Tulukis.)

It's a lot harder to get rid of Templars in Tuluk, politically I would think it's suicide for a Chosen to take out a contract on a Templar, the other Templars would retaliate, wouldn't they?

Anyway, there's a shitload of ways to do it and to roleplay it and there's a million different possibilities.  Generally speaking, I'm not going to complain that an avenue for killing templars isn't explicitly built into this "legal crime system" that is arbitrated by templars. I'd say that in most situations, going to templars about killing other templars is more or less not going to be the best plan. 

Templars or Chosen killing Templars is the ONLY legal way to do it in Tuluk so thus far it seems to be the best plan which is what I find unnecessarily hard, cause let's face it, if I'm a partisan to a Templar and secretly hate him/her and graduate the trust ladder to be alone and can poison the fuck, why wouldn't I? Oh yeah, cause I love my Sun King and don't wanna commit treason and can easily find a noble/templar patron to jump to my cause.


God my head hurts.

[Malken]

Someone needs to start their own "underground" criminal organization in the Warrens where people who don't wish to deal with the "legal" way can go and get justice done in any ways they see fit for a higher fee.

Then 15% of the 'sids made are passed on to the Templars.

You're Amos the Nobody and want to have Chosen Lord Fancypants murdered? Better way Saul.

[Jherlen]

So enforcing the system fairly (against yourself) = potential of more contracts down the road. But enforcing the system fairly against yourself also = certainty that your assets are going to be harmed, plans disrupted, etc. Is a bird in the hand really not worth (potentially, later) two in the bush to every Tuluki templar? If given the certainty of immediate pain for possible future financial gain, I don't think we can categorically expect every templar to want to shoot themselves in their own foot in every situation. The potential for corruption is there, as it should be. Unfortunately that corruption would undermine trust in the system, and then no one would use it. It goes back to what I said back on page 2 or 3 about expecting templars to act against their own best interest. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, but there's a loophole in the system for templars in the form of soldiers, so I think they'll be okay.

Aw, c'mon Nyr. You and I both know a good templar cares about more than just his soldiers. What about his partisans? A bard who wrote a really good song about him? A merchant he's been making favorable deals with? His political allies helping him with whatever scheme he's up to lately? The hot Chosen Lady he's been banging? A good templar is gonna have his fingers in so many pies he could open a bake shop, and we can't expect he'll be willing to let too many of those pies get eaten up by anyone else.

Templars won't screw you over with this system.  They will screw you over every other way.  This is their meal ticket (or if not their meal ticket--since they get taxes coming in--it is certainly a tidy bit of money it can make them).  You don't cut off the hand that feeds you.

It wouldn't even take a mildly clever templar to figure out how to exploit the "meal ticket" part of the system while also neutering it against his interests. Tulukis are not too dumb to figure that out. And the presumption has to be that if a templar can do something in his own best interests (not the City's, not the Templarate's, his own), he will. It would seem that if you wanted to take a contract out on someone, you had better be damn certain the Faithful you approach wants the same things you do. This just doesn't seem like something the whole city will take on trust.

Well...I guess we'll see.  I'm not sure which points you're trying to make here...that it can be exploited if a templar wants to?  That people just wouldn't believe that templars are handling the system neutrally?  On the other hand, you're saying it should be corrupt because that's cool.  Which is it?

The point I was trying to make is that the system can be exploited, and the obviousness of that can hardly be ignored. That would lead to people believing that the templars aren't handling the system neutrally, since it's possible for them to do so with little oversight. People not trusting the system would lead to people not wanting to use the system. The only two ways around this without changing what's been documented are: 1) acknowledge templar's are going to be corrupt, and let them be, or 2) mandate Rules that the system be followed as outlined Or Else.

I don't like option 1, because I think templar corruption would end up making the system not work at all whenever it suited the templar, and I'd love to see a lawful crime element that was not subject to PC templar whims. However, I really don't like Option 2, because in my mind imposing OOC rules to enforce fairness on a system just to try and make it work despite the underlying unfairness of Zalanthas isn't in the spirit of the game. So that's why I keep advocating for an Option 3 - take the responsibility of adjucating the system and give it to a third party, or back to the assassins themselves. I'd be happy to work on a draft of how that might look if it'd be considered at all.

[Ouroboros]

Making rules that include the outliers isn't needed, I don't think.

But setting forth a rule that prohibits them entirely, is?

So yes, you seem concerned with abuse on one hand and allowing abuse on the other and I'm not sure what side you are taking here.

I'm concerned about abuse, period. I think we're missing each other on the effect Templar on Templar contracts would have. You seem to see that as potential abuse, whereas I see it as balance.

...I see this is about more than this system and about you.  Let's not go there.  Moderated.

Actually, it really isn't. I don't think I shared anything that isn't common knowledge, but have no issue with the moderation either way. My point stands, and I'd request you take what I say at face value instead of reading into it further than it stands. I'm not interested in going there any more than you are, if I was, I would have through different channels.

Given your opinions towards this area, erm...we probably won't be seeing eye to eye on anything related to Tuluk.

I would hope that's not the case, since the only reason I'm taking part in this discussion at all is the fact I've always enjoyed and appreciated Tuluk as a culture and society. You of all should know that, from my playing history, without my having to say it outright. The fact I care about the area is the very reason I'm concerned for its well-being, theme, balance, and enjoyability. If I didn't, I'd simply stay out of this discussion as I do with most threads of the GDB.

[Barzalene]

It seems that it's going to be recognized pretty well outright that most new players will be discouraged from playing Shadow Artists, from the standpoint that they won't be deemed worthy IC'ly because of the natural stumbling blocks that come from learning the new culture outright.  But having said that, there needs to be some actual system put in place where masters are put together with the less skilled, if they chose to garner the full benefit of these relationships with the City-State, for training and apprenticeships.  It would also allow such artists to keep an eye on prospective rivals and talent, while "working" for the unified goal of what can only be classified as organized crime.  Now is that a clan, an IC labor union, Artist's Guild, whatever?  There will need to be some concessions for this to be newbie friendly, because like it or not, Tuluk is a major starting point for newbies, and there is an allure to the wording of this system that would make new players as well as curious veterans and wary old timers to want to try it out.  It certainly sounds in the way it is written that the journey from newly inked apprentice to Master should be one that is a career of years, there needs to be something more in place to reward and support this.

"deemed worthy" is there as an out for templars so they don't have to ink people that are obviously bad for the job.  You can get a new PC inked up pretty quickly if need be already, and this system wouldn't be much different.

But a newbie-friendly thing, hrm...that's worth thinking about.

No, it's basically a way for templars to have an out if a person wants to be an artist but you know they are a blabbermouth, too newbie-ish, or otherwise unfit for the job in that regard.

Good. I'm glad we got here. I think it's important to really balance the idea of guarding and preserving the game world, which often involves limiting new players from roles they don't have the world knowledge to handle, and being inclusive enough to let new players really dive in.

I would hate to see new players who could clearly be taught to be great shadow artists (clearly because they dive in rping their asses off and they'd done the research and they're sponges) denied another facet of the game because they haven't had enough time in.

[AllanakiLackey]

I think that these changes would be interesting.  Comments/concerns below.

On the Docs

What I don't understand from the main doc is if you can become a Shadow Artist and say "I don't do X."  It's kind of addressed in the Shadow Artist FAQ subdoc with "Let them know who you are and what your areas of specialty are. This is important, as the templarate will be giving you jobs that are appropriate for your talents as well as your skill." But what does that mean?  Does that mean that they can't offer you contracts outside your specialty?

In a related vein, knowing whether you can come in later and say, "BTW I'm now good at Y, put me on the list for Y too" or "I no longer do Y but I don't want to quit artisting entirely" would be a helpful addition to the main doc.

On the Discussion

I'd really enjoy seeing either (1) something like was suggested with the call/response idea earlier, giving the Shadow Artist some indication of the type of contract and allowing them to refuse, or (2) a refusal buyout.  I'm much less concerned with "You want me to kill my lover?!" and a lot more concerned honest misunderstandings and mismatches.

For instance, assuming that you can give the templarate ideas of what you're willing/able to do when you register, you told Faithful Happypants when you registered that you're open to "sending messages."  You're all fired up for honest to goodness back alley smack talk, but suddenly you're being approached about burglarizing Amos's apartment and leaving a dead rat in his sock drawer.  Except... you have absolutely no capability to burglarize.  You don't have sneaky or burglary skills, and you aren't allowed to talk about your contracts to get someone with burglary skills to help you.  That wasn't the kind of message you meant!  And now you know about the contract and have no capability to back out.

Sure, the liver-gnawing would make for great roleplay, but as a player I would find that extremely frustrating on an OOC level.

[hyzhenhok]

People seem to be missing that crime will still be possible in Tuluk outside of the shadow artist system. That's the beauty of it.

Unlicensed criminal activity is already perfectly viable in Tuluk; it's just there's simply no reason not to get your licenses because then you have leeway to do virtually anything as long as you don't go on some crazy murder rampage. The end result is there is virtually no real criminal presence in Tuluk; all of the criminals are licensed, so all of their actions are legal! This is boring.

Now, the Sun Legions and templars will actually have something to do: they actually need to watch for common crimes, because even a licensed PC no longer has the freedom to pickpocket 1000 coins from NPCs and steal weapons off people's belts in the Sanctuary just because they can. If your sneaky PC wants to do that, they still can; they just have to break the rules and take risks. That's fun!

If you're an influential Tuluki leader and you want to have a sneaky guy on retainer, you still can! Regardless of whether they are licensed or not! And if you want to do something that is forbidden by the Rules, kill a templar, target someone outside of your caste, etc, you still can! You just have to break the rules, and risk a heck of a lot in the process. For both you and your artist. That's fun!

I've played a Tuluki shadow artist thief. I simply didn't have anything to do once I'd mastered my basic skills. I had to find an influential patron to get involved in anything. And as a result, I felt that playing a sneaky in Tuluk wasn't any bit different than playing one in Allanak. The docs had lied to me. No one bothered with that bit of Tuluki flavor. There was no mechanic for me to develop a reputation, no simple mechanic for me to obtain contracts without engaging in normal clan play (which sucked because I had erratic play times at the time) and choosing a side. It wasn't what I had expected for the character, and it was boring.

The proposed changes, though they are a bit raw and have a hole or two, make me excited to try playing a shadow artist in Tuluk again. Or maybe even an unlicensed criminal. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Nyr]

I don't think I shared anything that isn't common knowledge

If it's not in the documentation then you shouldn't be sharing it.  What you were sharing was not appropriate.  Glad to see it wasn't anything more than that, though, no worries!

"deemed worthy" is there as an out for templars so they don't have to ink people that are obviously bad for the job.  You can get a new PC inked up pretty quickly if need be already, and this system wouldn't be much different.

But a newbie-friendly thing, hrm...that's worth thinking about.

Would you consider allowing shadow artists to get inked prior to entering the game world much like you let filthy gicks get a gem in Nak?

Maybe.  If you're getting a gem in Allanak, you were pre-approved to be a magicker by virtue of karma or special application.  Allanaki templars also don't automatically get told about new gemmer PCs.  Should they?  Not sure, not my area, maybe so...but they don't need to have a templar involved at all in order to be a gemmer.  In Tuluk, they might be able to get this tattoo, but they need to get hooked up with a templar so templars know they've got another person out there with x skills or y interests so they can get them hooked up with the right work.  If a newbie picks that and doesn't know what's up with the system...I don't know.

I'll cede in the whole black and white they're really untouchable thought and change to a they're NOT SO entirely untouchable frame of mind, but in a land where the social classes -are- much less able to be crossed, how much would YOU be willing to risk as a favor for a commoner?

So instead, you're arguing that a commoner should be legally allowed to kill a templar? Or am I misunderstanding?

Because I don't think some commoner should ever be legally able to kill a templar.

As to templars killing templars, it sounds like there will be ways to do that, but that it won't be allowed for in this system, there will be other ways to pursue it (based on Nyr's posts).

Yes, I think it should be allowed, never "legal" but doable. It's not legal in Allanak, but you can still get it done. Even on the off chance if I get that Chosen to be on my side and take out a contract on a Templar, how are we guaranteed they'd take the contract to begin with? Not stop it, not just take my sid and leave me hanging. Sun King forbid there be corruption, or betrayal.

If it's not legal but doable then it's always doable.  Keep in mind this is Tuluk (of course, even in Allanak, nobles and templars are not the same), and there is a caste divide...as described, the Chosen are not equal to a templar.  They're equal in rank but not in caste.  When that is the case, caste would trump rank.

Maybe I shouldn't mention this but I did initially want to allow templar contracts in certain cases.  Maybe we can revisit that; this was set up to try to be simpler rather than more complicated.

It's a lot harder to get rid of Templars in Tuluk, politically I would think it's suicide for a Chosen to take out a contract on a Templar, the other Templars would retaliate, wouldn't they?

Well, not just suicide, they aren't equals so they can't even do it (as proposed).

Templars or Chosen killing Templars is the ONLY legal way to do it in Tuluk so thus far it seems to be the best plan which is what I find unnecessarily hard, cause let's face it, if I'm a partisan to a Templar and secretly hate him/her and graduate the trust ladder to be alone and can poison the fuck, why wouldn't I? Oh yeah, cause I love my Sun King and don't wanna commit treason and can easily find a noble/templar patron to jump to my cause.

You don't have to love your Sun King.  Most Tulukis do though.

[Blur]

How about if instead of a contract system it was more of a bounty system?

This one is a nice idea, too, with the only problem being the secrecy involved (a board that tells artists what is needed and how much it charges...well...it seems prone to leaks).

What if the board only stated the bare basics that there was a bounty for mug/steal/beating/hit placed on <victim>? All other information such as bounty and exact instructions and such would be told to the shadow artist by the Templar upon taking a job. Also there would be different boards for different ranks. Imagine a building with different floors, where only master maybe advance shadow artists get the valuable information on the top. New or apprentice shadow artists would only have access to board on the bottom where the smaller jobs take place.

This would mean:
1. The contractors are kept secret
2. The details of the job are kept secret
3. The person taking the job is kept secret.
4. All Shadow artists are all sworn to secrecy, revealing the information on the board or after taking a job would be an act of treason.

Now this does still mean there is still a good chance that the victim finds out there is a bounty on them but that is not a bad thing in term of game-play. Thematically the ideal of keeping secrets is upheld but not to the point where there is absolutely no way someone can't get into that delicious secret pie. I imagine too, that if the victim finds out it is probably the work of the contractor, probably hiring their own shadow artists to go spill the secret to the victim. Forcing someone to leave, effectively exiling them out of the city out of fear of being killed send such a powerful message to everyone else. This too because it would take a powerful influential and rich  individual to keep the bounty going for more than an IC year. Once the victim finds out, other plots might be created as they try to find ways to protect themselves, hiring guard or legion or something else.

On top of that, having a shadow artist as a friend, lover or partisan does sound good, especially if that shadow assassin is highly ranked or a master. I can imagine those are the few reasons a shadow artist might break their code of silence to warn people they care about for one reason or another. Equally it takes the pressure off PC Templar to find shadow artists all the time to perform jobs. There might just not be any PC shadow artists qualified or even available, in which case in this system one could argue the bounty was just not good enough or again the bounty itself could be used as a means to send a message.  

Anyways hope this helps, if only as food for thought, mostly since I don't believe in critiquing other people's ideas that they worked hard on without at least trying to offer some alternative myself.    

[Nyr]

Good. I'm glad we got here. I think it's important to really balance the idea of guarding and preserving the game world, which often involves limiting new players from roles they don't have the world knowledge to handle, and being inclusive enough to let new players really dive in.

I would hate to see new players who could clearly be taught to be great shadow artists (clearly because they dive in rping their asses off and they'd done the research and they're sponges) denied another facet of the game because they haven't had enough time in.

To be honest, there are cases where a willing newbie is better than a clueless veteran.  We don't want to keep newbies out of this.  We do, however, want to have IC controls on who can and can't be an artist, just like now...except documented, unlike now.

I think that these changes would be interesting.  Comments/concerns below.

On the Docs

What I don't understand from the main doc is if you can become a Shadow Artist and say "I don't do X."  It's kind of addressed in the Shadow Artist FAQ subdoc with "Let them know who you are and what your areas of specialty are. This is important, as the templarate will be giving you jobs that are appropriate for your talents as well as your skill." But what does that mean?  Does that mean that they can't offer you contracts outside your specialty?

It's not explicitly stated, but I was thinking of it being a "yes" to your question.  "I'm wanting to be involved in thievery and mayhem projects you might have going on, but I'm not really interested in killing people, nor do I have any ideas on how to do that well."  In turn that'd mean you would not be given tasks in areas you just said you don't handle.

In a related vein, knowing whether you can come in later and say, "BTW I'm now good at Y, put me on the list for Y too" or "I no longer do Y but I don't want to quit artisting entirely" would be a helpful addition to the main doc.

To the first:  yes, I think you should always be able to add to the list.  To the second:  maybe.  Some flexibility might be nice.  "Had too much killing, all I see is their cold dead eyes, I just want to put poop in a Bynner's pack."

On the Discussion

I'd really enjoy seeing either (1) something like was suggested with the call/response idea earlier, giving the Shadow Artist some indication of the type of contract and allowing them to refuse, or (2) a refusal buyout.  I'm much less concerned with "You want me to kill my lover?!" and a lot more concerned honest misunderstandings and mismatches.

For instance, assuming that you can give the templarate ideas of what you're willing/able to do when you register, you told Faithful Happypants when you registered that you're open to "sending messages."  You're all fired up for honest to goodness back alley smack talk, but suddenly you're being approached about burglarizing Amos's apartment and leaving a dead rat in his sock drawer.  Except... you have absolutely no capability to burglarize.  You don't have sneaky or burglary skills, and you aren't allowed to talk about your contracts to get someone with burglary skills to help you.  That wasn't the kind of message you meant!  And now you know about the contract and have no capability to back out.

Sure, the liver-gnawing would make for great roleplay, but as a player I would find that extremely frustrating on an OOC level.

Yeah, they need to make it absolutely clear.  Not quite...uh...guild sniffing...but let's be honest, you need to be clear about your skills here.  Can you break and enter?  Okay, you need to say that.

Farther along the path let's say you get a job and you realize in the job you can't handle it (codedly you just don't have the skill or don't know how or etc.).  There probably should be avenues for that to be handled, too, without it being a "alright, you're dead!" response.

[Molten Heart]

Whoops, nothing to see here.

[Nyr]

People seem to be missing that crime will still be possible in Tuluk outside of the shadow artist system. That's the beauty of it.

This is also a big reason for putting this up:  because some people (like you) will see the silver lining that no one else does, and it forces staff to consider that silver lining and to give it depth.  We didn't wholly leave out unlicensed stuff, but we definitely didn't give it that much depth, and we might want to do that.

Unlicensed criminal activity is already perfectly viable in Tuluk; it's just there's simply no reason not to get your licenses because then you have leeway to do virtually anything as long as you don't go on some crazy murder rampage. The end result is there is virtually no real criminal presence in Tuluk; all of the criminals are licensed, so all of their actions are legal! This is boring.

Now, the Sun Legions and templars will actually have something to do: they actually need to watch for common crimes, because even a licensed PC no longer has the freedom to pickpocket 1000 coins from NPCs and steal weapons off people's belts in the Sanctuary just because they can. If your sneaky PC wants to do that, they still can; they just have to break the rules and take risks. That's fun!

If you're an influential Tuluki leader and you want to have a sneaky guy on retainer, you still can! Regardless of whether they are licensed or not! And if you want to do something that is forbidden by the Rules, kill a templar, target someone outside of your caste, etc, you still can! You just have to break the rules, and risk a heck of a lot in the process. For both you and your artist. That's fun!

I've played a Tuluki shadow artist thief. I simply didn't have anything to do once I'd mastered my basic skills. I had to find an influential patron to get involved in anything. And as a result, I felt that playing a sneaky in Tuluk wasn't any bit different than playing one in Allanak. The docs had lied to me. No one bothered with that bit of Tuluki flavor. There was no mechanic for me to develop a reputation, no simple mechanic for me to obtain contracts without engaging in normal clan play (which sucked because I had erratic play times at the time) and choosing a side. It wasn't what I had expected for the character, and it was boring.

The proposed changes, though they are a bit raw and have a hole or two, make me excited to try playing a shadow artist in Tuluk again. Or maybe even an unlicensed criminal. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Thanks, and thanks for the ideas.

[Taven]

This may seem like a dumb question, but it is tangentally related to the topic at hand.

Things are very "patron" based. The docs suggest that only Chosen or Faithful can be patrons, but I'm pretty sure in the past Family/Reps of the GMH Houses could also take partisans. Is that no longer true?

Also, are there any guidelines for patrons (for shadow artists, mainly)? For example, if I really like Amos but he isn't my partisan now, can I short-term offer him patronage, for the length of a single job? That way I know who can be hired, and I can talk to him about it. Oooor, is there a minimum time limit required for being a patron to a specific shadow artist?

[Blur]

It always felt like playing an unlicensed criminal was almost similar to trying to play a defiler in the middle of the city. Doable but probably not for very long. Both for similar reasons.


Things be changing more than advertised?

[Nyr]

This may seem like a dumb question, but it is tangentally related to the topic at hand.

Things are very "patron" based. The docs suggest that only Chosen or Faithful can be patrons, but I'm pretty sure in the past Family/Reps of the GMH Houses could also take partisans. Is that no longer true?

Technically anyone can be a patron or partisan to anyone else:

Patronage is a formal agreement between two parties for the benefit of both. Patronage may be either long-term or short-term. This can take many different forms. The following examples are not meant to limit what can be done but highlight the possibilities.

The noble was used because it's the most common one; there are plenty of other examples of what can be done though.

Also, are there any guidelines for patrons (for shadow artists, mainly)? For example, if I really like Amos but he isn't my patron now, can I short-term offer him patronage, for the length of a single job? That way I know who can be hired, and I can talk to him about it. Oooor, is there a minimum time limit required for being a patron to a specific shadow artist?

Hmm.  No, there are not.  Should there be?  That sounds like it's a hole you just found.  "I can't pick who I want for a job...but I can engage in a short term patronage relationship with this guy who I know is awesome...so I'll use him for one job...and get around that rule, because he's my guy!"  You guys are sneaky.

[Taven]

Also, are there any guidelines for patrons (for shadow artists, mainly)? For example, if I really like Amos but he isn't my patron now, can I short-term offer him patronage, for the length of a single job? That way I know who can be hired, and I can talk to him about it. Oooor, is there a minimum time limit required for being a patron to a specific shadow artist?

Hmm.  No, there are not.  Should there be?  That sounds like it's a hole you just found.  "I can't pick who I want for a job...but I can engage in a short term patronage relationship with this guy who I know is awesome...so I'll use him for one job...and get around that rule, because he's my guy!"  You guys are sneaky.

Sneakies. In the Shadow artist thread.

>.>

<.<

Are we going to be fined because we were caught?


...More seriously. Is that hole a hole, or a feature? I mean on one hand, you could be pressured into accepting more jobs because a noble wants specifically you...but you get more money for that anyway, and you can chat about shit, which sounds more plotty. On the other hand, it might be harder to get long-term patronage, if someone can just claim you short term. But you're still doing the jobs anyway, even if you aren't someone's partistan, in theory... Hmmm. This should be considered further.

[X-D]

I think this is an interesting idea.

But I really am not seeing how the Templars are to be "kept in line" The entire idea that you "don't cut off the hand that feeds you" has not, to date, been backed up in the game at all by Templars and I don't see that changing.

In the past, in either city, I have had or been around PCs who were willing to pay Templars, in coins, services etc, and to do so on a scheduled basis, very large amounts, amounts I dare say that are higher, by a great margin I am sure, then what Templars stand to gain in this system and still they usually ignored the money are killed or tried to kill.

Then, and it may have been mentioned, but what about things that go against the Templars personal interest? Even if for some odd reason they don't just disappear the guy that wants Poofy the Templars favorite bard killed, what is to stop the Templar from just assigning a shadow artist that simply could not pull it off or manipulating the system in other ways?

And, assuming things were put into place to satisfy anybody's worries on the above questions and others...then why in hell would anybody ever want to play a Templar in the north...might as well re-open nenyuk for play at that point, it would be more fun.

(Edit) I do take one point back, there as been one well known southern Templar that nearly never killed off the cash cows for petty reasons...but that quality Templar is so rare that one in twenty two years does not bode well for another.

[Medivh]

Murder. Corruption. Betrayal.
Player driven plots.


First, I'd like somethings answered definitively, instead of implied at.
-Why is this change going in place?
-Is this system new, or has it always been the case, IC?
-All inked citizens, other then templars, are able to become shadow artists?

Second, I have a few questions about things that have been said, and I'd like to put some thoughts out.

What you're asking for is in the system today, but it's also a system today that is underused and seemingly prone to corruption; these docs would fix that.

It's not prone to corruption.  It's "seemingly" prone to corruption.  This would remove the seemingly entirely and make it not prone to corruption.  Why do we want it to be less corrupt?  Not sure.  I just want it to be used if it's there.  If it requires it to look like it's a system that works, and requires some restrictions initially, I'm all for trying it.

So you, an admin (once a temporary producer) of the staff, aren't sure why you want a IG system to be -less- corrupt, got it.
You also aren't "all for trying it" you -are- trying it. Unless your going to rephrase what you said.

these are not active documents (so you do not need to use them in-game yet).

templars will be above the system, outside of the system, and brokering the system.
Their task is not to manipulate, at least not in THIS area.

Templars won't screw you over with this system.

They are not doing jobs for templars. Templars might also be the hiring agent at time

we are not forbidding templars from killing anyone.

Now consider a
scenario where templars run the system by these rules.

I assume this is part of the not corrupt system. We will take it on faith that templars will do this task, flawlessly at all times, and not manipulate the system.

Just like an artist would have to do their job, a templar would have to do their job--which means making the system work.  Sure, they might HAVE IC biases.
Acting on them by manipulating this brokerage system would be foolhardy.

A system not corrupt, at all, because something is foolhardy.

In regards to one's social status, which can be life or death in Tuluk, the docs say this...
"The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule."

THIS SYSTEM IS NOT JUST FOR KILLING PEOPLE,
IT'S FOR LOTS OF STUFF, ALL HAVING TO DO WITH SENDING A MESSAGE.

It's not very Tuluki to mug someone, but if you need to send a message to
someone that's encroaching on your turf, hiring an
artist to go beat the shit out that person sure sounds like fun.

Would one actually use the shadow brokers and artists to do this?

But besides love, there are lots of other viable reasons I can see an artist wanting to refuse -- most of these will probably be far more common anyway.

• The contract is beyond their skill and they know it, and they don't want to risk failure or death.
• The contract is beneath their skill and isn't a challenge, and they don't want to waste their time
• The reward offered isn't worth the risk, or isn't enough to cover expenses
• They're too busy with other work

1)  Templar shouldn't be giving a contract to someone that can't do it.
2)  Artist shouldn't have that kind of attitude; if they got asked to do it is because they were the best one for the job (or the only PC available?)
3)  This should never, ever, ever be an issue; the reward should always be worth the risk and also be enough to cover expenses
4)  Not being able to refuse is not the same as not being able to delay or negotiate details.

On point number 2.
What if the artist is an elf?

On stealing from elven roleplay...
" If an elf sees something that belongs to someone else, and provides moderate challenge for them, they want to take it - simply for the sake of taking it."


Similar questions are springing to mind now.
What if the only artist available for a certain task isn't human?
A dwarf with a focus to work around. An elf with a tribe to work around.

[Blur]

I rather not see legionnaires be able to be shadow artists too. It just feels too unfair.


However, considering what I have seen in the past those may just be my feelings.