Catching up, Part 2: Tuluk

[Quirk]

So, it appears I messed up at some point shortly after game entry. A typo when pointing to where I was going to enter the world has left me fending for myself for the last few months among the gith. It was all a bit scaly at first until I handed over my newbie boots, and now I seem to have been adopted as some sort of tribal mascot. It's all good now. As they say in Heshrak, "Grthrk rethss graj." (No, I don't know what it means either.)

Anyway, to arrive at my point via a circuitous route, this leaves me with a gaping hole in my knowledge of how the areas of the game have progressed in areas which aren't full of tribal gith. And so I'm curious to get your thoughts on one of those areas in particular - Tuluk.

So, to revisit ancient history, way way back Tuluk's political RP used to be non-existent. The combination of a lack of underlying causes for conflict and an emphasis on subtlety led to nobody doing anything much to further their group's goals beyond typing poisonous thoughts.

And the imms saw this, and noted that it was not all that it could be, and they introduced the patron-partisan relationships. And at this I rejoiced, believing that the mesh of new negotiations being opened up would breed new conflicts and give Tuluk's politics a whole new leash of life. Sadly, I never got to play in Tuluk after that.

Here we are, years later. I'm keen to find out how it all worked out. And soon, once I manage to convince the lanky gith with the helmet that looks rather like an upside-down cooking pot to open the encampment's gate, I'll get to find out for myself. In the meantime I want to know your opinion.

So, some questions!

• Has Tuluk become a hotbed of intrigue and skulduggery?
• What's the difference between Allanaki political RP and Tuluki political RP?
• Do you feel patron-partisan relationships add another dimension to Tuluki RP? Is it a significant dimension?
• How does Tuluki subtlety and artistic focus square with the poverty of most of the city? Is it aspirational for most? Or do PCs mostly not play the poorer roles?
• How would you characterise the Tuluk experience generally?
• How has it changed over the years?

I'm not looking for Tuluk-bashing here or blind cheerleading - I'm keen to get considered impressions that'll shed some light on what I can expect when playing there.

[Nyr]

At the first "Tuluki" RPT in Tuluk after the HRPT, the Lirathan Order took over the reins of the templarate, and a rather grisly public execution was had.
At the next "Tuluki" RPT in Tuluk after that, the Lirathan Order casts the Hlum nobility as traitors and collaborators.  Not only is the Estate burned and the Hlum presumably killed, the Hlum and the Grey Hunt are said to never have existed.
We have another "Tuluki" RPT coming up.  Staff didn't advertise for the last two.

[Cutthroat]

There is intrigue and skullduggery in Tuluk. It fluctuates with player activity, but it exists. It's just not a prominent feature because of the nature of such things. Players tend to mistake not being able to see political and covert machinations for their non-existence. However, there is sometimes the feeling that characters are too friendly with each other, and taking the Tuluki veneer of friendliness as more than a veneer. The simple solution is to play it straight yourself, and mix things up behind the scenes.

Patron-partisan relationships (and noble/templar-commoner relationships in general, such as employment) add that dimension of sociopolitical roleplay in Tuluk. A noble isn't going to trust your random Amos with making a subtle song about how Chosen Lady Talia smells like a gortok hide on the first day of meeting them. Trust is built through relationships, and in that sense Tuluki political RP is a bit more open due to the more active dynamic between highblooded folk and commoners, whereas in Allanak nobles and templars tend to be more distant from commoners. Allanak OTOH is an environment where the results of political and covert RP are far more visible. Commoners in Tuluk can also band together and plot against each other with some success.

Tuluki subtlety and artistic focus can be aspirational, already attained, or completely ignored. Subtlety applies mainly to political lifestyle and classier commoners (e.g. bards, Surif House employees, and maybe merchants, or smart/ambitious commoners in general). Thievery and assassination are arts sanctioned by the Lirathan Order, and poor people could definitely grow to care to pursue such arts, given that they presumably live around cruder forms of it.

The Tuluk experience is one where a player's patience and care leads to greater opportunities and fun. It also requires RPing with other people to get the most out of it. I absolutely hate when people boil Tuluk down to "it's easier to solo-hunt there" or "it's easier to play a solo crafter there", on the GDB or IG in an IC way. Tuluk, and this game, isn't at its most fun when people are trying to go solo. And Tuluk depends on an intermingling of social classes (Faithful, Chosen, commoners) and groups (bards, crafters, hunters, etc), and high activity in all of these groups, as much as or more than Allanak.

[Taven]

Has Tuluk become a hotbed of intrigue and skulduggery?

It can be very hard to see the intrigue in Tuluk, or to know if it's there at all. This is one of the things that can make Tuluk more challenging then Allanak. Often when something comes down, people are encouraged not to talk about it in Tuluk. In Allanak, there's often a whole kill-them-slowly-or-by-combat event.

That is not to say that it does not exist, but you have to get into a position where you can be in the know about stuff.


What's the difference between Allanaki political RP and Tuluki political RP?

Allanak has more nobles.

In the south, there are generally 3 houses open at any given time. Usually a House starts with at least 2 nobles, which seems to be to help ensure that there's different angles to play on each House (instead of dealing with Lady Talia X, you can deal with Lord Malik X, who secretly hates his cousin, or whatever). They don't always have 2 per House, but it's a definite trend.

In the north, you have the two noble houses, with their one noble each. There have been attempts to toss a third noble in a third house over the last few years, but it hasn't really worked out. I'm not belittling those nobles who can stick with it at all. Instead, I'm pointing out that because there's less people the avenues for different political angles and plots is more limited.


Tuluk has a smaller playerbase and it likes being indie.

Let's face it: Tuluk has fewer people then Allanak and always will. This means that it's harder to have more clans open (for example, noble houses) because everybody is pulling from an extremely small pool. Everyone wants awesome minions, but if one clan is full, usually another is totally empty. There's not enough bodies to go around, typically.

In addition, a lot of people in Tuluk just don't want to join clans. They want to do their own thing. That's fine! But it means that the "Indie Hunter/Merchant Group" is almost like a clan on it's own. That sort of group seems to die off and come back in a perpetual cycle. And while any given indie group can definitely be involved in political RP, it's a different flavor and different possibilities then employees would have.

Tuluk also has the partisanship option, of course.


Do you feel patron-partisan relationships add another dimension to Tuluki RP? Is it a significant dimension?

It feels to me like partisan-patron relationships were invented to take advantage of the Tuluki players inclination toward being indie. You're more able to be part of plots but you don't have to stick to a clan schedule. Of course, plot involvement varies widely, just like patron and partisan arrangements do. You could be in on all of the secret (legal) murders, maneuverings, and plots... Or you could just be doing a simple, straightforward job and not see any of the Tuluki underbelly. It totally depends on your services, who your patron is, and how much they trust you.


How does Tuluki subtlety and artistic focus square with the poverty of most of the city? Is it aspirational for most? Or do PCs mostly not play the poorer roles?

A trend I have noticed is people trying to figure out how to play a grittier Tuluki, someone from the Warrens, or worse off. It's hard. It's especially hard because you have to measure up the harsh experience your PC has had with the expectations of subtly. In addition, it's hard to stay poor in Tuluk. It's a verdant area, and as mentioned earlier, minions are a precious commodity.

In terms of art... It feels like a lot of people are indifferent to it, be it songs or statues and paintings. Some appreciate it and know that they can't do it, and every now and then it seems like there's a group that absolutely hates it. There doesn't seem to be a consistent standard. In terms of the shadow arts, that's far more complex, since ideally most people wouldn't even know you're that sort of artist.


How would you characterise the Tuluk experience generally?

The Tuluki experience is 100% dependent on who the active players there are. A single active, engaging, interesting person can completely change the experience. Because Tuluk generally has less people, it requires a lot of patience. Sometimes what plots are doable are limited just because the right people aren't in the right places. While that is also true of Allanak, it is even more true in Tuluk.


How has it changed over the years?

To really get an idea of the variation and evolution of Tuluk, you'd need to look at about the last RL decade, which is longer then I've been playing Arm altogether.

So, to revisit ancient history, way way back Tuluk's political RP used to be non-existent. The combination of a lack of underlying causes for conflict and an emphasis on subtlety led to nobody doing anything much to further their group's goals beyond typing poisonous thoughts.

And the imms saw this, and noted that it was not all that it could be, and they introduced the patron-partisan relationships. And at this I rejoiced, believing that the mesh of new negotiations being opened up would breed new conflicts and give Tuluk's politics a whole new leash of life. Sadly, I never got to play in Tuluk after that.

I would say that in Tuluk it either feels like you're on the inside, or you're totally clueless of what's happening. Since there are (usually, haha) no public executions, or even talk about what people have done wrong, it can feel like nothing is going on, unless you are in the know. Part of the issue is that Tuluk is a society that focuses on disappearances to make a statement... But you don't know if that was a hunting accident, a hired assassin, or the Faithful getting pissed off. You don't know if they got busy IRL and stored, or what. There are ways around this, but for the most part it remains true.

I think right now things in Tuluk will be heavily in flux. There's stuff going on (check out the history page, it's not so secret) that seems to be reshaping it.

[Quirk]

Taven, that reply is awesome. It feels balanced, and has a lot of meat to it. Thank you very much for writing that, I'll be sure to let that percolate through my brain thoroughly before I roll up my next Tuluki character.

[Nyr]

I think right now things in Tuluk will be heavily in flux. There's stuff going on (check out the history page, it's not so secret) that seems to be reshaping it.

Right on the nose.

[Taven]

Catching up Magick has 30 replies, Catching Up City Elves has 42, and this thread, prior to posting this, had 5 replies.

That's a very large difference.

So to give everyone some food for thought, I thought I'd link you all to some old posts. By old, I mean the thread was started in 2008. I think that nearly (possibly not quite, but close) out dates every PC living in Tuluk. A lot of things have changed since then. Especially recently; for example, there are no longer any Hlum nobles, and the templars have been unified. However, some points are very interesting. That thread was nine pages long.

The Current Languishing of Tuluki Nobility

• Tlaloc addresses some points
• Did Chosen used to be able to make up their own laws? Can they still?
• Tlaloc's follow-up post to his original
• Gimf's advice on Chosen and Tuluki
• Old Qynar documentation

If you're too lazy to go and read through those, some interesting notes are that the Qynar system was created to try and help inspire Tuluki conflict. It was a result of staff and players working together, and PC actions. There were concerns then (2008) that it wasn't living up to all it could be, because of a lack of Chosen and Faithful PC representation. It also discusses how it is best to balance the player base between the two cities. I think that some of these challenges and concerns are still around.

But things are also changing, as we speak. Let's talk about what that might mean.


No More Hlum Nobles

The Hlum was, I would argue, a very flavorful thing about Tuluk. Allanak worthless commoners are always worthless commoners; they will never be anything more (at least not without vastly more plotting). Tuluki citizens (whom the Sun King loves, may anyone who says otherwise be disappeared) could join the ranks of the elite. For a long time, however, the Hlum were cut off from a lot of the social action. That is to say, they had no ability to govern what so ever. They didn't get a vote in the Triumvirate. They got a huge, glorious estate, but they were second-class noble citizens.

The changes to how the Triumvirate worked were a sign that it could change. For the first time, it seemed like the Hlum could get more power. Then, for reasons not explicitly stated (remember the IC stuff isn't a year old yet), that all changed. The Hlum were wiped out.

Does this significantly impact Tuluk OOCly? There won't be any more Grey Hunt RPTs, for one. Your commoner can't aspire to more ever. Is that a deterrent from playing in Tuluk for people? Or largely, do people not care? That, I don't know. For me, I mostly liked it as a flavor thing. Maybe someday, it would have been interesting to try and make a determined PC try and pull it off, but I don't feel like I am less likely to play in Tuluk because of it.

I do wonder, however, if there won't be more of a suspicion of commoners because of this. If commoners won't be more slapped down, because look what happens when you trust them too much. Will this lead to once again a greater divide between the Common caste and the Suirf? It remains to be seen.


The Unified Templar Order

Muk Utep declared it be so, so it must be awesome, right? Well, let's look at what it meant, historically. Historically, the two Orders would be at odds for power. They each had their own niche and duties, and areas where they controlled things. You wanted your Order to be on top, because it gives you the edge. I think that this likely lead to more complexities with what type of templar you had, and what Order they belonged to, behind the scenes. It's also been pointed out by some as odd within Zalanthas, which has no sexism, since all the warriors were male (Jihaen), and those dealing with other aspects were all female (Lirathan).

While I imagine that the transition won't be immediate, this does seem like it will change several things. You could have a female templar who is a kick-ass warrior. You could have a male templar who wasn't. It may also make competition more PC-to-PC, and about personal power, rather then the power of your respective Order. From a Chosen standpoint, you may not have to have the support of a specific Ordered templar in order to have permission to do things in certain areas; it's all one. Though, perhaps within the unified order there will be further distinctions, who knows?

I think this is an interesting change, and I'm curious to see what happens with it.



Something else I'm curious on is how much PCs will be able to impact changes and outcomes. I'm sure that they already have (in ways we can't discuss) but it would be interesting to see if there's anything more that comes out of PC involvement. And, if it will be behind the scenes, or as obvious as it was when the Qynar system changed over. I'd like to think that the current Tuluki PCs will have a decent impact on the changes to the city, and be able to be more involved on whatever level because of it.

[Quirk]

I've read through the old thread you linked. This is still going on, I take it? The Qynar system seems a pretty big deal to me - having noble PC governors of Tuluki regions is frankly awesome, enough so as to completely rehabilitate the role of Tuluki noble in my mind - and I'm kind of shocked that this is the first I've heard of it. I'm also surprised that something as major of this doesn't feature in any docs - I'm finding no hits for the word "qynar" through searching the website.

It feels to me like this is a Tuluki political system in which nobles actually have good reason to scheme against each other. With the added ingredient of patron-partisan based relationships that can form and dissolve fluidly, it seems like the city should be a bubbling cauldron, and substantially more politically active than Allanak. The replies I'm getting seem to suggest that politics goes on, but that this is largely invisible except to well-connected PCs. Is subtlety the issue here? Is it simply a lack of players filling out these roles? Even if you had just one PC noble with real authority over some area of the city, and two groups of indie hunters at loggerheads with each other, it seems like there would be plenty of incentive for bribery, smearing reputations and general political nastiness. If it isn't so - what's wrong?

[Barzalene]

It's hard to scheme and maneuver and try to ruin your enemy while waving a big sign that says Look at me! I'm coming to get you! Watch out! This is me smearing your reputation!"

I think it's just a quieter game up north.

[Quirk]

It's hard to scheme and maneuver and try to ruin your enemy while waving a big sign that says Look at me! I'm coming to get you! Watch out! This is me smearing your reputation!"

I think it's just a quieter game up north.

Well, the outcomes should be visible even if the machinations are not. Reputations should be publicly ruined. Even knowing who is and isn't in favour with major players in the city shouldn't be a big secret. If subtlety should describe the effect and not just the action, something has gone terribly wrong. In particular, if you're setting out to smear a reputation, and only a handful of people understand that what has happened was intended to be a smear, you're not subtle: you're ineffectual.

To analogise: I used to play a lot of judo. For many, the high point of judo is the foot sweep, an attack in which you catch your opponent's foot with yours just as they were about to rest their weight on it and tweak it from under them at the same time as disrupting the balance of their upper body so as to magnify the movement they were originally making. It requires little effort, but perfect timing. It is elegant, subtle, beautiful. It exemplifies the spirit of judo. But, above all else, it is prized because it is effective. People crash to the floor, and those who do not know how to fall well are often winded. Were it not effective, there would be no point in it.

[Barzalene]

It's hard to scheme and maneuver and try to ruin your enemy while waving a big sign that says Look at me! I'm coming to get you! Watch out! This is me smearing your reputation!"

I think it's just a quieter game up north.

Well, the outcomes should be visible even if the machinations are not. Reputations should be publicly ruined. Even knowing who is and isn't in favour with major players in the city shouldn't be a big secret. If subtlety should describe the effect and not just the action, something has gone terribly wrong. In particular, if you're setting out to smear a reputation, and only a handful of people understand that what has happened was intended to be a smear, you're not subtle: you're ineffectual.

To analogise: I used to play a lot of judo. For many, the high point of judo is the foot sweep, an attack in which you catch your opponent's foot with yours just as they were about to rest their weight on it and tweak it from under them at the same time as disrupting the balance of their upper body so as to magnify the movement they were originally making. It requires little effort, but perfect timing. It is elegant, subtle, beautiful. It exemplifies the spirit of judo. But, above all else, it is prized because it is effective. People crash to the floor, and those who do not know how to fall well are often winded. Were it not effective, there would be no point in it.

Oh, definitely. The results should be visible. But we don't always get the result we hope for, then we need to scramble and make it all never happen.

[Cutthroat]

The outcomes are pretty visible in Tuluk; one just needs to put some effort into seeing it. Talking to other PCs tends to do the trick eventually.

I've read through the old thread you linked. This is still going on, I take it? The Qynar system seems a pretty big deal to me - having noble PC governors of Tuluki regions is frankly awesome, enough so as to completely rehabilitate the role of Tuluki noble in my mind - and I'm kind of shocked that this is the first I've heard of it. I'm also surprised that something as major of this doesn't feature in any docs - I'm finding no hits for the word "qynar" through searching the website.

It feels to me like this is a Tuluki political system in which nobles actually have good reason to scheme against each other. With the added ingredient of patron-partisan based relationships that can form and dissolve fluidly, it seems like the city should be a bubbling cauldron, and substantially more politically active than Allanak. The replies I'm getting seem to suggest that politics goes on, but that this is largely invisible except to well-connected PCs. Is subtlety the issue here? Is it simply a lack of players filling out these roles? Even if you had just one PC noble with real authority over some area of the city, and two groups of indie hunters at loggerheads with each other, it seems like there would be plenty of incentive for bribery, smearing reputations and general political nastiness. If it isn't so - what's wrong?

Yes, it's still going on. It actually is somewhat buried in the history docs, with more information being on a Find Out IC basis:

1571 (Year 31 Age 21)

   Several meetings of the Tuluki Triumverate were held. The first abolished the tiers of noble houses and opened the noble quarter to public access. At the second meeting, it was reported that Muk Utep had awoken to find his city disturbed and had made some resolutions. His resolutions were to reopen the area near the Ivory Pyramid once known as the ruins, and rename it the Old Quarter. More significantly, he divided the city into fief-like divisions called qynar, which along with areas outside the city known as striasiri, would henceforth be administered on behalf of the city by noble governors appointed by the Lirathan order.

I think the main issue with Tuluk has generally been a lack of players to completely fill out the different levels of Tuluki society. Clanned and patron/partisan roleplay still don't attract a good chunk of players, despite the fact that it's the only reliable way to get into the bigger plots (especially political ones, but really, plots run by sponsored roles in general). Indie roleplay (even in indie groups) is good, as Taven has said, but it still leaves other functions of the city without the required number of bodies for maximum fun. That doesn't mean Tuluk isn't fun - it certainly is - it's just at its best when the different groups are all filled out and active. Otherwise you get a situation where things seem pretty empty and political conflict is either repetitive or decreased.

[Nyr]

On a purely meta/OOC standpoint, it seemed as though the Hlum role as well as the two templar orders did not work.

Hlum -- fairly undocumented (for staff, for templars, for potential Hlum, even for other Tulukis), very low participation, Grey Hunt events (equally undocumented/incredibly reliant on templars who more than likely had to wing it for the most part) that would sputter along intermittently over the course of years (wasn't it supposed to happen once every 7 years?  weren't we closer to once every 12 years?), rare to see PCs last in the role (no offense to any that were in it, you did great, but the longevity of the role was an issue from this perspective)

Two templar orders -- divided by sex for no discernible reason (though explained IC--using stuff we'd dug up if anyone was paying attention at the last mini-HRPT in Tuluk) which defies the norms for the game in a very visible way (you mean the boys can play at war and the women have to stay at home?  how quaint...), players and staff feel obligated to defend it due to its longstanding nature and difficulty of change (not like you can just abolish them overnight), PCs are forced to go to one Order's templars FIRST for relatively simple city-based stuff, one Order of templars is prevented from involvement in military matters (closing out a whole area of roleplay), one Order of templars is simply not expected to be involved in city affairs

Were they cool IC?  Yes.  There were many neat things that occurred.  Lots of plot happened that wouldn't have happened without those roles.  At some point (actually, around this time last year), we decided to review what did and didn't work from a documentation standpoint.  This or that thing needed to be tweaked, but then it would affect another area of Tuluk, which would need to be tweaked, which would affect another...and so on, and so forth.  The end result?  We decided that if we were going to revamp some documentation, we shouldn't half-ass it.  Both cheeks were needed, and we'd have to start from the top and work our way down while also working from the bottom up, and why not make it an IC thing?  

This has been in the works for some time, and we're not done yet.  We should have something new and significant documentation-wise later this week.

[Jherlen]

It's hard to scheme and maneuver and try to ruin your enemy while waving a big sign that says Look at me! I'm coming to get you! Watch out! This is me smearing your reputation!"

This. Allow me to give you a "for instance" from way way back in the day. This was in like 2007 or so, so I'm sure some things have changed, but this is my story on why I think the subtlety thing can sometimes get taken too far:

I was playing a Kuraci Senior Agent named Rokov and had found myself in Tuluk again shortly after the introduction of the qynar system. It came to our attention somehow that a certain Chosen Lady was refusing to buy spice from our PC merchants, because apparently using her haggle skill she could get what she wanted cheaper by haggling with NPC vendors. The solution I came up with was to get staff to (temporarily) raise prices on spice at the Tembo's Tooth, but keep them the same if you bought from a PC. This gave my our PC merchants more to do and also solved the haggle issue. I also wrote a rumor on the rumor board that says the price increase was due to "undue social pressure" being exerted on our merchants in the Tooth by certain Chosen or something like that. I forget whether I called the offender out by name or not, but I believe I at least dropped hints suggesting it was her.

I thought I was being Tuluki enough about it - consequences everyone can see (higher spice prices at the Tooth for a while) + an attack on reputation rather than a more overt reaction. Had this been Allanak (assuming for a moment Kurac actually could openly sell spice in Allanak), we'd probably have done something much different involving direct public shaming in front of other nobles, or roughing up servants or something. But not only did the social effect I had intended not pan out, I actually got yelled at by a different Chosen for being too overt. Apparently according to him by making such a public attack on one Chosen's reputation all the other Chosen Houses would close ranks and Kurac would find itself without allies and we'd be kicked out of Tuluk etc. etc. etc.

Was I 100% right as Rokov? Probably not since I rarely was. I'm sure I could have handled things better, but I didn't think I was outside the docs, either. Point being, if you're going to have a culture that relies so much on reputation, you have to let people get smeared now and then. If you play up the Subtlety aspect so much that writing rumors about a single junior noble suddenly becomes an attack on ALL THE NOBLES, it starts taking the fun out of the system.

I have more thoughts about Hlum nobles, since Rokov later wound up being one of those too, but I'll save those for a later post.

[Jherlen]

More on the Subtlety thing:

The docs make it sound like being Subtle in Tuluk is prized above all else. I think this lead (back in the day, and again maybe something has changed) to an incentive for Tuluki movers and shakers to feel like they had to try and get things done while letting as few other people as possible know they were doing it, especially if what they were trying to do was adversarial to somebody else. That lead to an environment where to the uninitiated, it looked like nothing at all was happening. It becomes harder to attract characters into plots if you don't have a good nucleus of action going on that they can see.

Subtlety is not in fact a Tuluk-only virtue. I met plenty of Allanaki nobles and GMH types who could be very subtle when they wanted to be. The difference was, it wasn't a straightjacket for them. I could name a slew of Borsail and Oash PCs in Allanak that were scary politically because they were subtle, but not all the time. You'd see them get into something and think "Okay, but what's their real angle here?" and not be sure. In Tuluk it was hard enough just to see nobles get into anything to begin with. The thing that seemed to work about Allanak is that being unsubtle wasn't a scarlet letter where politics were concerned. Next to subtle scheming Lady Oash you could have Lord Tor, who's about as subtle as an axe to the head, but doesn't get shunned out of plots for being so.

I don't want to make it sound like I hate Tuluk. I don't; my first PC was from there and I've spent a significant time playing in Tuluk and seeing cool plots and players who get it. But not everyone does, and it just seemed like back in the day the system was much more rigid than Allanak and easily fell apart or shut people out if the social politics weren't going a very certain way. I'm saying all this just because I'm excited to hear things are changing, hopefully for the better, and wanted to bring up my perspective on stuff I didn't think worked before.

[Nyr]

Old Tuluki subtlety may be on its deathbed.  Recent events have helped propel it along, and docs will eventually flesh it out more as existing characters settle in to the new swing of things but:

Tulukis don't need to dance around every single issue in the most intricate way possible in order to play a Tuluki properly.  It shouldn't take four kinds of euphemisms to discuss every issue, and behind closed doors when no one is there to see or hear you, maybe you can let your SubtletyGuard^TM down long enough to speak frankly.  There are absolutely times when overt, chilling action is needed...in order so that it may be covered up later.
Allanakis don't need to avoid subtle steps and loudly state their intentions to everyone around them in order to play an Allanaki properly.

There should be nuance between both extremes.

Sorry that we staffers haven't chimed in much on this thread.  We've been working more on the changes rather than discussion of them, which is good, but I imagine that sometimes discussion is desired, especially for the bigger things.  Some of them we can't really detail because they're still ongoing.

[LauraMars]

Tulukis don't need to dance around every single issue in the most intricate way possible in order to play a Tuluki properly.  It shouldn't take four kinds of euphemisms to discuss every issue, and behind closed doors when no one is there to see or hear you, maybe you can let your SubtletyGuard^TM down long enough to speak frankly.  There are absolutely times when overt, chilling action is needed...in order so that it may be covered up later.
Allanakis don't need to avoid subtle steps and loudly state their intentions to everyone around them in order to play an Allanaki properly.

Thank you.

NYR SAID IT, EVERYONE.

Take a chance, people!  Being a bit bolder in your northern roleplay might work out better than you think.

[Jherlen]

Thanks for the reply Nyr! Especially about subtlety. That one's going to get a lot of quoting, I predict.

A couple thought on Hlums, and then I'll shut up:

I actually liked the concept of Hlum nobles, which is maybe somewhat ironic of me to say because I'll be the first to admit I didn't do a great job when I was one. But at the same time there were some real difficulties with being one. Lack of documentation and lack of clear objectives probably played a role, for me anyway. With a Surif or Allanaki noble, you have a whole House your character belongs to who's resources you can draw on, who you can plot with/against, and whos viewpoints you can use to generally guide your decisions IC. Hlums had none of that, meaning the player had to drive all of it. For me at least, that was a daunting challenge, combined with the fact that my own character's personal circumstances put up some barriers to integrating himself fully enough into the political scene to do the role justice.

It might have been better had there been more than one Hlum raised up at a time, so at least each Hlum would have a buddy to play off, but that would have taken some of the excitement out of the Grey Hunt since so few people seemed to participate anyway, going from one winner to more might have made it too easy.

Another problem with Hlums is that the Surif nobles were much more accessible to the common people to begin with than nobles you see in the south. There's not a whole lot of room for a noble "of the common people" when the common people can just walk up to Chosen Lady Winrothol herself and have a polite conversation without being afraid of being slapped down. Hlums still had the stigma of being lower-class nobles, but without having any real approachability advantage.

I'm pretty convinced that in the right hands, a Hlum could still have been an awesome force in Tuluki politics, but I think doing so would be even more challenging than playing a normal noble, and without some of the associated perks. I don't have the perspective to see how any Hlums after me did, but it'd be cool to hear other people's thoughts.

I do agree with Taven above about the removal of Hlum nobles doing some damage to perceptions of social mobility in Tuluk, though. In all honesty that might not be a bad thing. I think Tuluk could benefit from a general feel of more overt oppression, man-keeping-you-down style, and that doesn't work as well if every commoner can maintain dreams of being a Chosen some day.

[Lizzie]

Tulukis don't need to dance around every single issue in the most intricate way possible in order to play a Tuluki properly.  It shouldn't take four kinds of euphemisms to discuss every issue, and behind closed doors when no one is there to see or hear you, maybe you can let your SubtletyGuard^TM down long enough to speak frankly.  There are absolutely times when overt, chilling action is needed...in order so that it may be covered up later.
Allanakis don't need to avoid subtle steps and loudly state their intentions to everyone around them in order to play an Allanaki properly.

Thank you.

NYR SAID IT, EVERYONE.

Take a chance, people!  Being a bit bolder in your northern roleplay might work out better than you think.

Not only did Nyr say it, but Lizzie thanks Nyr for doing so. And just to make sure the planet doesn't blow up - my criticism is that Nyr didn't say it years ago.

Lurv, Lizzeh

[manonfire]

I like teasers. Give us more, my preciousss.

[Nyr]

Not only did Nyr say it, but Lizzie thanks Nyr for doing so. And just to make sure the planet doesn't blow up - my criticism is that Nyr didn't say it years ago.

Lurv, Lizzeh

Different time, different period for the game.  At that time we were under the impression we'd be tackling a new game in the near future (within a couple years at least, for those of us that were the most optimistic at that time).  Tacking on fixes and making changes on a smaller scale were both things that were considered and implemented, but they might have just muddied the water for Tuluk.  The effort was made in good faith, but it probably resulted in more of an attitude of "get used to it, it's Tuluk" from Tuluki fans and an attitude of "wtf, bunnyhugging weird-ass RP Tuluk" from those that didn't "get it."

In retrospect, both sides had their points and it's hard to talk about how Tuluk can or should change without changing it bit by bit (but significantly, each time).

In early/mid 2012, we stopped the Reborn project and shifted it entirely to a code project; in mid/late 2012, we started working on this.  Unfortunately for those that want to see it all right now, it's not something we can drop in all at once.  Fortunately for staff, phasing in things every few weeks is not only doable, it is much less stressful, and it allows us (and players) to take a breather long enough to implement and react (and thereby foster more staff-side implementation and reaction to PC actions, making the whole thing feel organic and involved).  It doesn't have to be perfect on day one, because there are many things that must be done over time to make IC sense and to bring the documentation to the place that we on staff feel it should be.

[Cutthroat]

Tulukis don't need to dance around every single issue in the most intricate way possible in order to play a Tuluki properly.  It shouldn't take four kinds of euphemisms to discuss every issue, and behind closed doors when no one is there to see or hear you, maybe you can let your SubtletyGuard^TM down long enough to speak frankly.  There are absolutely times when overt, chilling action is needed...in order so that it may be covered up later.

I would argue that "Tuluki subtlety" as an entity was never really about euphemisms and saying something without saying it. Players tend to take it that way and they're not wrong, but in general, I always thought "Tuluki subtlety" was about a "clean hands" approach to politics, skullduggery, satirical songs, etc (attacks on other people). Whereas Allanak was a "clean or dirty hands doesn't matter, just the end result" sort of place with similar things.

[Kryos]

Agreeable stuff quoted and truncated a few times

Plenty of players have, and likely plenty of players still do, behave towards the suggested manner.  Certainly wouldn't be new, but more wide spread would be wonderful.

The best Tuluki players I've seen were dancing and posturing in public, while being human beings behind closed doors.  And I can say Allank's touch is there too.  A bit of normalization will be boss.

[Nyr]

but that would have taken some of the excitement out of the Grey Hunt since so few people seemed to participate anyway

This wasn't the biggest reason for an OOC look at removal, but it was a contributing factor.  Had things gone differently at the HRPT, you'd see a whole different facet of this play out in-game.

Another problem with Hlums is that the Surif nobles were much more accessible to the common people to begin with than nobles you see in the south. There's not a whole lot of room for a noble "of the common people" when the common people can just walk up to Chosen Lady Winrothol herself and have a polite conversation without being afraid of being slapped down. Hlums still had the stigma of being lower-class nobles, but without having any real approachability advantage.

This is true.  The facade that a commoner could become a noble may have been so perfect that it may have fooled the players as well.

Catching up Magick has 30 replies, Catching Up City Elves has 42, and this thread, prior to posting this, had 5 replies.

That's a very large difference.

I didn't feel like it was a good idea to discuss anything related to Tuluk when we were about to run an RPT that would essentially get rid of both Orders, so I kept my mouth shut except for hints about that in this thread beforehand (and at least two other hints on staff announcement role call posts that clever players might find--hint hint, Breaking Bad fans).

If you're too lazy to go and read through those, some interesting notes are that the Qynar system was created to try and help inspire Tuluki conflict. It was a result of staff and players working together, and PC actions. There were concerns then (2008) that it wasn't living up to all it could be, because of a lack of Chosen and Faithful PC representation. It also discusses how it is best to balance the player base between the two cities. I think that some of these challenges and concerns are still around.

We're making our way down the list of things in Tuluk.  I assure you that you'll see things happen but I can't tell you what you'll see or where you'll see it until after it happens.  As a side note, we're not going to make a habit of hijacking people's RPTs (even with their knowledge) in the future, but it sure was fun to do that from time to time.

But things are also changing, as we speak. Let's talk about what that might mean.
No More Hlum Nobles

The Hlum was, I would argue, a very flavorful thing about Tuluk. Allanak worthless commoners are always worthless commoners; they will never be anything more (at least not without vastly more plotting). Tuluki citizens (whom the Sun King loves, may anyone who says otherwise be disappeared) could join the ranks of the elite. For a long time, however, the Hlum were cut off from a lot of the social action. That is to say, they had no ability to govern what so ever. They didn't get a vote in the Triumvirate. They got a huge, glorious estate, but they were second-class noble citizens.

They were intended to be second-class noble citizens.  More on that later.

The changes to how the Triumvirate worked were a sign that it could change. For the first time, it seemed like the Hlum could get more power. Then, for reasons not explicitly stated (remember the IC stuff isn't a year old yet), that all changed. The Hlum were wiped out.

Oh, parts of it were explicitly stated on the History page:

1628 (Year 11 Age 22)

    In a ruthless act of suppression, the newly ascendant order of Lirathu casts the Hlum nobility as traitors and collaborators. The Templarate proceeds to erase the Grey Hunt from Tuluki society and eradicates the Hlum Nobility, burning the estate to the ground. Those found to "remember" or mention the Hlum or Grey Hunt are dealt with quietly and efficiently by the Templarate.

Tulukis don't know that, or they know but don't talk about it.  They know that if they do talk about it they will face some serious problems.  There were IC hooks that players can discover in-game (probably easier in Allanak, but if you're in Tuluk you've had the opportunity to learn, too).

Does this significantly impact Tuluk OOCly? There won't be any more Grey Hunt RPTs, for one. Your commoner can't aspire to more ever. Is that a deterrent from playing in Tuluk for people? Or largely, do people not care? That, I don't know. For me, I mostly liked it as a flavor thing. Maybe someday, it would have been interesting to try and make a determined PC try and pull it off, but I don't feel like I am less likely to play in Tuluk because of it.

It's probably better to have commoners entirely separated from the highborn.  As I mentioned above, perhaps the facade was too well-constructed.  For it to work, the underbelly of Tuluk had to bleed through.  What could (or should?) have been seen in Tuluk lite was that the Hlum were nothing more than pawns in an ongoing game of making those without power think they had some or could have some so that they wouldn't focus on their lack of power and influence (as well as the plight of their day-to-day situations).  I think that in the past, the "real" part of Tuluk (the part that gets shit done) had rarely come to the surface to make the pleasant decor seem as chilling as it is meant to be.  Maybe it didn't work that well before, but since "new shit has come to light", perhaps this iteration of Tuluk will see some more of that.

I do wonder, however, if there won't be more of a suspicion of commoners because of this. If commoners won't be more slapped down, because look what happens when you trust them too much. Will this lead to once again a greater divide between the Common caste and the Suirf? It remains to be seen.

Exactly.

The Unified Templar Order

Muk Utep declared it be so, so it must be awesome, right? Well, let's look at what it meant, historically. Historically, the two Orders would be at odds for power. They each had their own niche and duties, and areas where they controlled things. You wanted your Order to be on top, because it gives you the edge. I think that this likely lead to more complexities with what type of templar you had, and what Order they belonged to, behind the scenes. It's also been pointed out by some as odd within Zalanthas, which has no sexism, since all the warriors were male (Jihaen), and those dealing with other aspects were all female (Lirathan).

While I imagine that the transition won't be immediate, this does seem like it will change several things. You could have a female templar who is a kick-ass warrior. You could have a male templar who wasn't. It may also make competition more PC-to-PC, and about personal power, rather then the power of your respective Order. From a Chosen standpoint, you may not have to have the support of a specific Ordered templar in order to have permission to do things in certain areas; it's all one. Though, perhaps within the unified order there will be further distinctions, who knows?

Yes, it is in transition right now.  To me, the most important thing to note is that from an OOC standpoint, there's finally going to be redundancy for templars.  I don't know if our current crop of PC templars realize that, but they've been at a disadvantage on that front for quite some time.  Want to take a break and go on vacation?  Better hope there's another templar that does what you do to back you up--otherwise, your clan suffers indirectly, and so does the PC playerbase of the city, and then you (might?) feel like crap when you get back.  Also, it can really affect your own RP time if you have to be the "on-call templar" to do things that need to be done, whatever they might be.  All clan leader PCs have a certain minimum they're expected to handle, but it has seemed more unbalanced in this area for Tuluk.

Something else I'm curious on is how much PCs will be able to impact changes and outcomes. I'm sure that they already have (in ways we can't discuss) but it would be interesting to see if there's anything more that comes out of PC involvement. And, if it will be behind the scenes, or as obvious as it was when the Qynar system changed over. I'd like to think that the current Tuluki PCs will have a decent impact on the changes to the city, and be able to be more involved on whatever level because of it.

So far, a lot of PCs have been able to impact changes and outcomes.  Some RPTs have been changed on the fly due to PC involvement.  Even the HRPT outcomes were changed by PC involvement.  Do I mean that a volcano wouldn't have popped up out of the ground where it did had someone contacted the right npc via the Way with the password?  No, nothing like that.  NPCs died that were not slated for it.  Some NPCs survived that were not slated for it.  And some PCs--purely by being in the right place at the right time--stepped up to get involved up-close and personal with some events that few others will get to say they participated in.  They can say "see this history event?  This thing that happened?  I wasn't just there, I was involved!"

[Taven]

I do agree with Taven above about the removal of Hlum nobles doing some damage to perceptions of social mobility in Tuluk, though. In all honesty that might not be a bad thing. I think Tuluk could benefit from a general feel of more overt oppression, man-keeping-you-down style, and that doesn't work as well if every commoner can maintain dreams of being a Chosen some day.

It's probably better to have commoners entirely separated from the highborn.  As I mentioned above, perhaps the facade was too well-constructed.  For it to work, the underbelly of Tuluk had to bleed through.  What could (or should?) have been seen in Tuluk lite was that the Hlum were nothing more than pawns in an ongoing game of making those without power think they had some or could have some so that they wouldn't focus on their lack of power and influence (as well as the plight of their day-to-day situations).  I think that in the past, the "real" part of Tuluk (the part that gets shit done) had rarely come to the surface to make the pleasant decor seem as chilling as it is meant to be.  Maybe it didn't work that well before, but since "new shit has come to light", perhaps this iteration of Tuluk will see some more of that.

I think that Tuluk has always seemed more "fluffy", but I've also always felt that this was by design. Tuluk likes to pretend that everyone always agrees with it, that the Sun King personally cares for the people, and that the Faithful are there to watch out for you, yes, YOU, good citizen. The Hlum was proof of how valued commoners in Tuluk were. They could become Chosen. It was really a "fool the inattentive and disappear the rest who say anything" atmosphere. But, as I mentioned earlier, it didn't always work. There weren't always enough hints dropped that there was disappearing happening, instead of another hunting accident or storage. This could make Tuluk feel as if maybe it actually cared, which in turn I think is why everyone thinks Tuluki hug trees.

This is obviously changing. Public executions, publicly burning down an estate, perhaps other things not on the history page. Is that good? I don't know. It feels like right now Tuluk is trying to get a new gritty flavor without becoming a second Allanak. I don't think that flavor is fully defined yet. As Nyr has said, the docs are in transition. What players do may also change how that flavor emerges, and how this new iteration of Tuluk is ultimately defined.

They were intended to be second-class noble citizens.  More on that later.

[...]

It's probably better to have commoners entirely separated from the highborn.  As I mentioned above, perhaps the facade was too well-constructed.  For it to work, the underbelly of Tuluk had to bleed through.  What could (or should?) have been seen in Tuluk lite was that the Hlum were nothing more than pawns in an ongoing game of making those without power think they had some or could have some so that they wouldn't focus on their lack of power and influence (as well as the plight of their day-to-day situations).  I think that in the past, the "real" part of Tuluk (the part that gets shit done) had rarely come to the surface to make the pleasant decor seem as chilling as it is meant to be.  Maybe it didn't work that well before, but since "new shit has come to light", perhaps this iteration of Tuluk will see some more of that.

Some of Taloc's comments suggests that originally, Hlums were potentially going to be more of a playing factor. It didn't turn out that way, of course--as you state, the Hlums were more a distraction for the commoners. I don't think this fact escaped a lot of players, I think it's a reason that they Grey Hunt wasn't more popular--Players may not see an advantage to having a Hlum PC. That said, the Hlum was a jumping off point for PCs to marry into Surif houses and get actual power. With recent events it felt like maybe the Hlum were going to have more of a say, and be less of a facade. Things rapidly went in the other direction, however (IC reasons, all that jazz).

So far, a lot of PCs have been able to impact changes and outcomes.  Some RPTs have been changed on the fly due to PC involvement.  Even the HRPT outcomes were changed by PC involvement.  Do I mean that a volcano wouldn't have popped up out of the ground where it did had someone contacted the right npc via the Way with the password?  No, nothing like that.  NPCs died that were not slated for it.  Some NPCs survived that were not slated for it.  And some PCs--purely by being in the right place at the right time--stepped up to get involved up-close and personal with some events that few others will get to say they participated in.  They can say "see this history event?  This thing that happened?  I wasn't just there, I was involved!"

Sometimes it's nice to hear staff say this, because in any HRPT (including the Gith War, actually, though that was an Allanaki-local thing not a world-wide HRPT) players often wonder if staff has a pre-decided plan, or if their actions actually impacted anything. I know in the Gith War, staff revealed that where players focused the defense and fought did lead to different outcomes then if they had made other decisions. Just a reminder (like the above) can really make players feel warm and fuzzy inside.