Thief Guild - Burglar/Pick Pocket Combined!

[Salt Merchant]

No.

I dread the thought of more pickpockets in the game. Might as well not even bother to carry anything snatchable at all (including weapons on belts) if this change is made.

It would just be extending the problems of the burglar class (one can clean out every apartment in a city in a day) to picking pockets (good luck if you visit a tavern).

[The Archbishop]

Why don't we just merge every class by that logic?

[Spider]

No way! Never! Pickpockets rock hard. Way harder than burglars. Burglars can't even touch them.

My biggest adrenaline rush ever in this game was the result of a pick pocket, turned successful. And to be deprived of that, or deprive anyone else of that is a shame. (I know you didn't say remove skill_steal, but it's the devotion to that that really makes it a worthwhile role to play).

One of my pick pockets would pretty much be hungry at all times. Why? Well, I felt that my character wouldn't pick pocket someone unless he had a reason to. Being hungry is a good reason. Just sold my pants for a piece of bread? Well, now it's time to take the pants of someone else.

Assassins rock hard too. My vote... REMOVE the burglar guild. Not because they are overpowered or twinked or anything like that. I just don't find them to be an integral part of the world, at least enough to require PC representation, nor a role that is rewarding at all. Personal opinion though.

Edited to add:

I do like burglars for the sole reason of keeping all the spam hunter subguild crafters honest. In my opinion, apartments containing enough materials and crafted items to take over all the merchant houses is a far more heinous crime against the world than stealing. I'm sure if you compared these two different styles of thievery, the indie hunter crafter side of the scale would be low enough to hit the other side of the world.

[jhunter]

No.

I dread the thought of more pickpockets in the game. Might as well not even bother to carry anything snatchable at all (including weapons on belts) if this change is made.

It would just be extending the problems of the burglar class (one can clean out every apartment in a city in a day) to picking pockets (good luck if you visit a tavern).

In all my time playing I've only ever once had anything stolen off my pc and I leave things available to steal most of the time so, I don't believe there is a problem of too many pick pockets in the game. There's nothing wrong with the burglar class just because someone plays unrealistically doesn't make it a problem with the guild, it makes it a problem with the player. Just because someone can unrealistically spam-craft, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the merchant guild. Just because one can unrealistically spar all day long without taking a break, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the warrior guild, etc.
If you feel someone is doing things unrealistically, then it is your responsibility to report it to the staff, let them look into it and assume that -if- there was some poor play going on, they will deal with the player appropriately.

[Kryos]

In all my time playing I've only ever once had anything stolen off my pc and I leave things available to steal most of the time so, I don't believe there is a problem of too many pick pockets in the game. There's nothing wrong with the burglar class just because someone plays unrealistically doesn't make it a problem with the guild, it makes it a problem with the player. Just because someone can unrealistically spam-craft, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the merchant guild. Just because one can unrealistically spar all day long without taking a break, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the warrior guild, etc.
If you feel someone is doing things unrealistically, then it is your responsibility to report it to the staff, let them look into it and assume that -if- there was some poor play going on, they will deal with the player appropriately.

I'd agree its not a problem of quantity, its a problem of quality.

I've had, several times in the course of my playing, screen scroll that looked a bit like

Code Select Expand

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord has arrived from the west.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord has arrived from the west.

A figure in a typical cloak runs north.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord runs north.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord runs north.


In the time it took me to type "think What the Drov was that?"

If anything theft code still needs a hard revisit.  In the six or so times I've been targeted by a thief, only twice has it been either 'reasonable' or 'ig.'  Almost makes me sad to suggest these roles have a bit of karma put on them, so staff watches them more intently, or drops a falcon punch on people that do the above.

[Barzalene]

Salt Merchant:
No.

I dread the thought of more pickpockets in the game. Might as well not even bother to carry anything snatchable at all (including weapons on belts) if this change is made.

Let's say that your pc's most valuable possession was stolen. How would you be damaged by that? It would suck for your PC, sure. But that doesn't make it bad for the game. In fact, a little danger, hardship and conflict are good. Clearly what we do need is more pick-pockets.

[Kryos]

Let's say that your pc's most valuable possession was stolen. How would you be damaged by that? It would suck for your PC, sure. But that doesn't make it bad for the game. In fact, a little danger, hardship and conflict are good. Clearly what we do need is more pick-pockets.

The problem is that anyone, short of a HG or mentally handicapped person, would be able to react to feeling the attempt/noticing something's gone by becoming observant enough to notice future attempts for a time, until their guard went down.  Code doesn't account for this at all.  Pick pockets should be looking for either little scores to get by on the by to by, or a big score by stealing something valuable and laying low, to survive.  You can't be a proponent of harsh one way and not the other.

[jhunter]

In all my time playing I've only ever once had anything stolen off my pc and I leave things available to steal most of the time so, I don't believe there is a problem of too many pick pockets in the game. There's nothing wrong with the burglar class just because someone plays unrealistically doesn't make it a problem with the guild, it makes it a problem with the player. Just because someone can unrealistically spam-craft, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the merchant guild. Just because one can unrealistically spar all day long without taking a break, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the warrior guild, etc.
If you feel someone is doing things unrealistically, then it is your responsibility to report it to the staff, let them look into it and assume that -if- there was some poor play going on, they will deal with the player appropriately.

I'd agree its not a problem of quantity, its a problem of quality.

I've had, several times in the course of my playing, screen scroll that looked a bit like

Code Select Expand

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord has arrived from the west.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord has arrived from the west.

A figure in a typical cloak runs north.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord runs north.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord runs north.


In the time it took me to type "think What the Drov was that?"

If anything theft code still needs a hard revisit.  In the six or so times I've been targeted by a thief, only twice has it been either 'reasonable' or 'ig.'  Almost makes me sad to suggest these roles have a bit of karma put on them, so staff watches them more intently, or drops a falcon punch on people that do the above.

The question is though, does the message the pickpockets get from such an attempt make them aware that you are aware something was amiss? Or does it make them believe they managed to cover it up completely unoticed? The problem is, you're assuming that it is clear to the one making the attempt that you noticed and might be more alert. Which, obviously isn't the case since the code didn't tell you for certain that someone was attempting to steal from you. It said you feeel a faint tug at your belongings and can't find the source which doesn't necessarily mean that you know someone is attempting to steal something from you. Such an assumption, every single time, is rather OOC. Some pcs might be paranoid and look around suspiciously, some might assume their sheath got caught on their chair, etc. Unless you are a super slug typist, there is no way they made that many attempts in the time it took you to type what you did as you say since they have a delay for each attempt. Better rp on your part would've been to emote grasping your things and looking around suspiciously to do something to do something to display that you are alert to something wierd. I think you're jumping to conclusions, as people have a bad habit of doing, and lying all the blame at the feet of the wouldbe pickpocket.

[Salt Merchant]

One successful pickpocket already feels like a plague. Even if played only to feed itself.

Their invincibility (vs. certain classes) is maddening, once they have their skills up. Even if you do spot them, you can't touch them while they dance around you sneering. The law protects thieves most of all.

I was soured on pick pockets early in my "career" here. Admittedly, people play better these days, but to me they're still like a room full of flies that can't be swatted.

EDIT: Instead of looking to remove classes (and choice), why don't people propose some ideas for a new class or two instead?

[Kryos]

The question is though, does the message the pickpockets get from such an attempt make them aware that you are aware something was amiss? Or does it make them believe they managed to cover it up completely unoticed? The problem is, you're assuming that it is clear to the one making the attempt that you noticed and might be more alert. Which, obviously isn't the case since the code didn't tell you for certain that someone was attempting to steal from you. It said you feeel a faint tug at your belongings and can't find the source which doesn't necessarily mean that you know someone is attempting to steal something from you. Such an assumption, every single time, is rather OOC. Some pcs might be paranoid and look around suspiciously, some might assume their sheath got caught on their chair, etc. Unless you are a super slug typist, there is no way they made that many attempts in the time it took you to type what you did as you say since they have a delay for each attempt. Better rp on your part would've been to emote grasping your things and looking around suspiciously to do something to do something to display that you are alert to something wierd. I think you're jumping to conclusions, as people have a bad habit of doing, and lying all the blame at the feet of the wouldbe pickpocket.

In short, you're making a lot of presumptions yourself, and they're incorrect.

1) You imply I've never played a pick pocket, you're wrong.
2) You imply people in Zalanthas wouldn't be quite familiar with the behavior of thieves, you're wrong.  People steal to live, on all number of levels.
3) You imply its ok for someone to put in the command 'steal <something> <someone>;' in the buffer and spam enter so long as they don't get message telling them they failed.  Its not.
4) You suggest that using RP is going to somehow avert this kind of player from just continuing to try and swipe whatever from you until they're codedly caught(and that I don't rp, apparently):  it doesn't, and you're wrong again.

So, yeah, in these cases it's quite fine to say the pickpocket is poorly played.  Its also fine to say the code for hide and thieving is poorly implemented.

Then again, as I said originally, there are good thieves out there too, which was seemingly ignored.  Rather then changing classes, fix the code.

[jhunter]

2) You imply people in Zalanthas wouldn't be quite familiar with the behavior of thieves, you're wrong.  People steal to live, on all number of levels.

On this point, I don't think you are comprehending exactly what I'm saying. My point is that the message doesn't explicitly state that "someone is trying to steal from you" your reaction that it is the case is based primarily on OOC knowledge. That has nothing to do with what is happening Icly. It could mean many different things IC.

I don't think that I implied anywhere that you have never played a pickpocket. Also, no I did not imply that it was okay for "someone to put the command 'steal <something>;' in the buffer and spam enter so long as they don't get a message telling them they failed", what I did say was that you're obviously grossly exaggerating the scenario since there is a delay to the steal command and you say that you were unable to type a short, single line think in during that time. Unless, you happen to hunt and peck type at the speed of a 90 year old their first time attempting to type anything, this is also an exaggeration.
-What- exactly do you suggest doing to "fix" the code that doesn't involve making such types of characters almost unplayable?

[Qzzrbl]

A bit of a derail, but it -would- be pretty cool to get a bump to perception against pickpocketing after getting a "lol, someone stoled from you but you didn't see who" message.

Because.... Well. Y'know, it makes sense to keep an eye on your pockets after feeling someone rifling around in there.

[Synthesis]

If you're feeling a tug at your belongings and you can't figure out who's doing it, chances are it's not a legit Guild_Pickpocket, because by the time a true pickpocket can be unseen, that steal skill is maxed so hard they will never fail, ever.

You're probably getting noobed by a burglar, a subclass thief, or a city-elf.

[lepxii]

  Pickpockets - derail on supposed "buffness". My frank opinion is that it is too easy to avoid being pick pocketed. As long as you kit out in a certain fashion and are consistent in doing certain coded actions the window of opportunity for the would be pickpocket is rather slim.

 (in terms of code/items - this didn't always use to be the case, but it has been in the past decade or so).

 I think players are peeved in an OOC sense when their "stuff" gets stolen (or when they are PKed). Stuff gets stolen (and people are murdered). Try appearing rich (or just western) in certain 3rd countries IRL, and you will be stolen from in a high degree of certainty (and perhaps mugged/kidnapped/beaten to death for your credit card). Most PCs are rich, even very rich (also commoners) in contrast to the very poor environment

 Burglars, *perhaps*, have it easier (not sure in the current apartment environment), and are able (codedly, if twinking) to empty out a whole apartment (including the heavy bed, closet, and whatnot) with a certain degree of coded impunity (if they are fairly certain the owner(s) aren't logged in and playing).

 In short - get over it.

 (and I haven't played too many thieves, if at all, and definitely not recently, so heck, maybe I'm wrong on the easiness).

 

[Bilanthri]

I have played with (and played) both pickpockets and burglars who used their skill sets in "unconventional" ways. When that ranger friend of yours saps a raptor, or the merchant you've been selling materials to offers you a poisoned blade, it can make for some interesting re-evaluations. I always found it enjoyable to realize that these sorts chose to play a person, rather than just emptying my pockets/apartment.

Combining/removing either of these classes would, in my opinion, reduce the range of options for people who want to be creative in playing middle to low combat ability characters.

[jhunter]

I have played with (and played) both pickpockets and burglars who used their skill sets in "unconventional" ways. When that ranger friend of yours saps a raptor, or the merchant you've been selling materials to offers you a poisoned blade, it can make for some interesting re-evaluations. I always found it enjoyable to realize that these sorts chose to play a person, rather than just emptying my pockets/apartment.

Combining/removing either of these classes would, in my opinion, reduce the range of options for people who want to be creative in playing middle to low combat ability characters.

How would combining them reduce the range of options when, the way I suggest, the same guild could be played either way?

[Bilanthri]

I have played with (and played) both pickpockets and burglars who used their skill sets in "unconventional" ways. When that ranger friend of yours saps a raptor, or the merchant you've been selling materials to offers you a poisoned blade, it can make for some interesting re-evaluations. I always found it enjoyable to realize that these sorts chose to play a person, rather than just emptying my pockets/apartment.

Combining/removing either of these classes would, in my opinion, reduce the range of options for people who want to be creative in playing middle to low combat ability characters.

How would combining them reduce the range of options when, the way I suggest, the same guild could be played either way?

Hmm...if there was a class that had all the skills of both Pickpocket and Burglar, it would seem that the uber-rogue would be born. I like that a Pickpocket and Burglar have skills to offer one another in a rogue team. I guess the idea of a stock thief just bores me.

[Sam]

Last I checked... You feeling a tug at your belongings was also added as a random "feeling" in some rooms.

Might be you just got hit by a smooth set of feels.

[Barzalene]

 I think players are peeved in an OOC sense when their "stuff" gets stolen (or when they are PKed). Stuff gets stolen (and people are murdered).
 In short - get over it.

I did, I completely cannibalized lepxii's post. Maybe this wasn't his/her intention. Sorry, in that case, lepxii.

I hope it's not rude to say this, but seriously? Get over it.

[Salt Merchant]

I hope it's not rude to say this, but seriously? Get over it.

That's easy to say, isn't it?

Here are a few others for people then:

Mages can wtfpwn you? Get over it.
Dwarves are too strong and dominate the fighting classes now? Get over it.
Half-giants don't seem stupid enough to you? Get over it.

In fact, we can just shut down any line of conversation with a good ol' "get over it", can't we.

[Barzalene]

Actually, I've never complained about any of those things.

[Salt Merchant]

Actually, I've never complained about any of those things.

No, but plenty of other people have.

Get over it.

[Barzalene]

Ok.

[hyzhenhok]

I hope it's not rude to say this, but seriously? Get over it.

That's easy to say, isn't it?

Here are a few others for people then:

Mages can wtfpwn you? Get over it.
Dwarves are too strong and dominate the fighting classes now? Get over it.
Half-giants don't seem stupid enough to you? Get over it.

In fact, we can just shut down any line of conversation with a good ol' "get over it", can't we.

Doesn't really make sense with the half-giants, since that's a reasonable roleplaying complaint.

For all the others and your whine about pickpockets, yeah. Get over it.

[Qzzrbl]

I hope it's not rude to say this, but seriously? Get over it.

That's easy to say, isn't it?

Here are a few others for people then:

Mages can wtfpwn you? Get over it.
Dwarves are too strong and dominate the fighting classes now? Get over it.
Half-giants don't seem stupid enough to you? Get over it.

In fact, we can just shut down any line of conversation with a good ol' "get over it", can't we.

Doesn't really make sense with the half-giants, since that's a reasonable roleplaying complaint.

For all the others and your whine about pickpockets, yeah. Get over it.

Not like anybody's forcing anybody to play a pickpocket....

Stop trying to get burglars that can pickpocket like a motherfucker and have sap, folks.