I must share a grievance...

[Natron]

With the watch skill pick-pockets can no longer pick pockets.  With the stamina penalties, warriors can no longer fight.  With the change to the armor code and now the stamina penalty to shoot, rangers can no longer hunt with ranged weapons.

I can appreciate the struggle of every Mage at how Uber-powerful every non-mage guild is, but continually making non-mages weaker at their primary skill and continually adding spells for Mages seems kind of... how do I say this... unbalancing.

If this is the path we wish to pursue, I have a suggestion.  Simplify the game into two guilds:  Mage, and Victim.  The Mages will be able to do all these really cool things and wield untold power, and the Victims can sit around and pant a lot until some Mage comes to put them out of their misery.

Does anyone else feel this way, or conversely think me a total idiot?

[mansa]

I think...

When a mage is invisible and 'starting to cast' they should be able to be hit.  They should be 'visible' for that split second.

Props to Marko for bringing up that idea.

[Halaster]

With the watch skill pick-pockets can no longer pick pockets.

Untrue.

With the stamina penalties, warriors can no longer fight.

A silly statement, to put it nicely.  Absolutely absurd to be a little more blunt.

 With the change to the armor code and now the stamina penalty to shoot, rangers can no longer hunt with ranged weapons.

Again, a silly statement .. or.. completely absurd.  Take your pick.

I understand you may feel these things are more difficult, but to say they "can no longer" do these things is just outright silly, and not really even discussion worthy.

[Ritley]

Total idiot to be frank Natron.

Warriors can still fight; they don't need to use kick, bash, and disarm to still be uber. And it's only if you spam them you'll feel the disadvantage.

Same with all the others.

Mages aren't too powerful, it doesn't work like that. A assassin could kill a mage, if the mage doesn't see him... because of backstab. A warrior can beat a assassin in close combat. A ranger can beat a warrior in ranged combat..

It's a circle.

Of course mages are powerful, but if used in the right way so are non karma guilds.

Point is; mages are going to be more powerful. It's just realistic. But mages fail in other points... a warrior could easily do other things; a assassin could take someone out quickly with backstab, a ranger could stay alive in the desert the rest of his life.. and a merchant could easily have the byn behind him to justify his decision.

and unlike mages, non karma guilds can make some pretty cool friends.

Even if they can't kill a magicker in a fight.. it's as simple as this for a cunning merchant.

contact templar

psi This magicker is pissing me off.

Remember.. non karma guilds are also powerful.

Too be honest, I prefer magickers. Not because of their power, but because of other reasons... Yes magickers are more powerful, so what? Is this game about power? no. It's about playing out a role correctly. And with these new changes your more capable than before.

Good on you staff.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I think mages are "balanced" in the sense that 99% of the Known World would gladly kill them if given half a chance.

[LoD]

And with these new changes your more capable (of playing out a role correctly) than before.

I've seen no changes with regards to stamina draining abilities that allows one to be more capable of playing out their role correctly.  I see an implementation of code to manage abusive players under the guise that it promotes a more "realistic" approach to combat fatigue.

If that were the case, I wouldn't mind seeing magick spells fitted with a stamina drain as well to represent the fatigue of channeling their power.  Mana obviously doesn't represent physical fatigue, because it does not impair their ability to move, forage, or partake in other physical activities.  It would make sense to me that channeling powers from an elemental plane of existence would be as physically taxing, if not more, than throwing a kick out at someone in a fight.

-LoD

Total idiot to be frank Natron.

Keep it civil or don't post at all.

[LoD]

Total idiot to be frank Natron.

Keep it civil or don't post at all.

I almost wrote the same thing, except that Natron ends his post with this:

Does anyone else feel this way, or conversely think me a total idiot?

Not that he actually wanted someone to call him an idiot, but nonetheless Ritley was answering his question.

-LoD

[Sneaky kank]

Who's telling you we can't steal any more? I stole thrice, from belts, with a pickpocket who's younger than one-day mark, today. And if an imm watched me, he/she possibly knows I have never twinked my skills, including 'peek'.
I believe steal is made easier when someone's not watching you. Try it first, then come tell people "pickpockets can no longer pick.". To tell the truth, I wasted a loooong deal of time for a perfect escape route and my hands were shaking because I was nearly sure I would fail. Do not discourage people with senseless posts. Steal works the same as before. Just do not fool around with raised hoods and act suspicious.

[Intrepid]

How many threads have we had so far about people complaining about
this exact same topic?

Do we really need this brought up over and over again, guys?

[Cenghiz]

Why's everyone obsessed with mages? This is 107th time I'm telling it: "You are NOT supposed to kill mages one on one, if you're not REALLY sure you can kill them because they're unprepared. It's impossible to kill even an unprepared mage so often for most of the classes I played."
About warriors? C'mon! I don't even bother answering.
Rangers? Bah. If you're speaking about a bahamet or mekillot, you're right. Because of their armor, you will not be able to kill them any more on your own I believe. But you shouldn't kill them on your own anyway. I don't think scrabs, beetles and raptors have huge armor classes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
And about new spells? *chuckle* They're not always "uber fart of instadeath." Some spells perform cantrips, some are totally towards specific tasks which do not give codewise benefits when it comes to battling. Which classes had spells added? Rukkians. I have IC knowledge about it but of course I can't tell.. But rukkians are not gifted with ability to kill warriors easier than they could before. It got even harder, you'd know why if you had played a rukkian before and after the spells were added.
Nilazi? I have no idea but, nilazi were already capable of killing people with great ease. I don't think it can be made easier for them.
I'm trying to understand your frustration but... I cannot.

[Larrath]

Honestly.  Unlike most MUDs, not all spells in Arm are geared towards combat or even things that appear to be useful.  And the good combat spells usually take a LONG time to get, and I'm not talking 20 days here.
Just remember that magickers have to deal with a very long period of extreme vulnerability while having a truckload of enemies before they can even protect themselves reasonably.

And having new spells doesn't mean magickers can fight you better.  Hell, for all you know the new spell could be 'Halitosis' that must be cast before 'Fart of Death' is available.  Or it could be a spell that creates a flower or a shiny rock or make bodies of water sing.  Just about anyone who's played a magicker (sometimes after a bit of branching) had at least one or two spells that really, really made them wonder why someone took the time to even code and what the hell they're even good for.

Warriors can fight just as well as before, they simply can't fight as unrealistically as before.  Thieves can still be stealthy, but they can't be so obvious about it.  Rangers can use archery but they can't fire 50 arrows per minute.  Magickers have their own disadvantages, you'll see them when you play one and try to take down something.

[Folker]

First of all, I doubt that the author of this thread actually tried out all three areas that he mentioned himself .

Second of all, relax. Each of these changes removed a bit of uberness from each of the guilds, but didnt completely incapacitate them. There's still plenty of manuever. Atleast for warriors/rangers. For pickpockets, I currently have no experience unfortunately.

[Natron]

Thank you for your replies.  In case it was unclear my saying "No longer can..." was meant to be hyperbole.  I think there's an imbalance in the game between Mages and non-Mages, and with stamina-drains and added spells for Mages that gulf is widening further.

People keep writing about it because it's frustrating.  If one wants to play an outdoors, independent character they were already at a disadvantage if they chose warrior or ranger over a mage guild.  Now it just feels more unbalanced.  Why, other than perhaps for the challenge of it, would someone choose not to be a mage for the outdoors type of adventure?  This fact partly explains why, as a an outdoors independent character, I meet five or six mages for every one ranger or warrior.  

I liked the following ideas:

I like the idea of adding stamina-drain to mages, or making them open to attack if they cast while cloaked.  Or something to level the playing field...

Or how about magickal sub-guilds?

Or a skill for non-mages centered around spell resistance?  It could branch from barrier.  If a mage can cast spells to protect him/her from blades and arrows, why can't a non-mage use their psionic ability to shield them from magickal attacks?

I like RPing, in RL or here on ARM, in a world that has balance.  Mages are icky in their own way, thieves are icky in their own way, warriors are icky in their own way, etc. and it feels like the recent code changes have hindered that balance.

Thank you for your replies, both positive and negative.

-Natron

[Medena]

Why is everyone obsessed with classes lately? And on comparing them with each other? And on skills and stats?  Sheesh, let's just play our characters in this role-playing game.

How many threads have we had so far about people complaining about this exact same topic?

Do we really need this brought up over and over again, guys?

Hear, hear!

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Natron wrote:

Why, other than perhaps for the challenge of it, would someone choose not to be a mage for the outdoors type of adventure? This fact partly explains why, as a an outdoors independent character, I meet five or six mages for every one ranger or warrior.

Not all magick-types are capable of surviving in the wilderness. In fact, I'd venture to say that (from day 0, anyhow) most cannot.
Any idiot ranger, however, can "forage food".
I can't comment on how many magickers you're meeting in-game, but I will say that anyone picking a magicker over a ranger so they can survive in the wilds better should be prepared to be sorely disappointed.
Natron wrote:

Or a skill for non-mages centered around spell resistance? It could branch from barrier. If a mage can cast spells to protect him/her from blades and arrows, why can't a non-mage use their psionic ability to shield them from magickal attacks?

How do you know a currently-existing skill/command doesn't do this?
Natron wrote:

I like RPing, in RL or here on ARM, in a world that has balance. Mages are icky in their own way, thieves are icky in their own way, warriors are icky in their own way, etc. and it feels like the recent code changes have hindered that balance.

The Armageddon staff, so far as I can tell, have never really been worried about game balance. A pickpocket shouldn't really be "balanced" against a defiler; a merchant doesn't really need to be "balanced" against a warrior. If you're really looking for game-balance, then (and I'm not trying to be snarky here), you should probably look at some others MUDs. That just isn't what Arm is about.

[Wykydtronn]

Why is everyone obsessed with classes lately? And on comparing them with each other? And on skills and stats?  Sheesh, let's just play our characters in this role-playing game.

Because Arm is not a MUSH.

Our character skills, stats, and general capacity very much effect them and our role play.

Not that I agree at the topic at hand but its silly to say things like "Stats and skills don't matter".

If they don't matter... why do we have them?  Class balance and the way a class full fills a role very much effects how you can role play them.  So simply, they are going to be discussed whether any one likes it or not.


Natron:  Magickers are suspose to be fucking scary.  Code wise and role play wise.  They are meant to be feared and loathed for a reason.

Turning them into bunnies or even bringing them down to a warriors level would defeat the purpose of having them.

[adgohan]

Though it's pretty rare I post, I thought I'd try my best to clear up a few issues that have been circulating with these new changes, based on how much I've read on these threads..

* Elementalists aren't overpopulated - we aren't actually finding a huge ratio of them to warriors/rangers in the game - staff said this in this thread:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18361&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

  I think you may be experiencing this because of the places you hang out,
aka...I don't believe you would be likely to see a mage throwing spells inside Tuluk or Allanak, rather if you are visiting out of the way places that possibly have food or water or sustainable living conditions, your chances of meeting mages and other rogues will probably increase.

* The stamina changes are not to limit or disable any of the melee classes, rather - they are to prevent abuse of certain skills that this change has been applied to.

  So this skill shouldn't cripple a warrior by making it unrealistic to kick, bash, or disarm in a fight. It should not cripple a ranger by making it unrealistic to shoot arrows in a fight. I think if Morgenes sees this happening, it'll get changed.

  Rather, this is to prevent people from kicking 20 times over and over again in a fight, to sway the battle off what would realistically happen - and it is the same for bash, and shooting arrows.

 In a real life scenario, kicking repeatedly, shooting arrows, and thrusting your shoulder at people - combined with high levels of movement and physical exertion, does take stamina. And after a few minutes of fighting -  if you are not well seasoned, you will feel taxed. I will yield for adrenaline and a couple other reasonings, but most of the time - you should feel pretty tired if you're in a constant fight, and this change reflects that.

* This game is not meant to be balanced between all classes, ala it isn't World of Warcraft or Everquest.

 Half-Giants are insane, in some respects. I've met, and played, elementalists that I've just shook my head at, because they were psychotically powerful. The game wasn't designed to be balanced - Zalanthas is hard, and there are people that are better, and stronger, than you. You will need to use your mind, both OOC and realistically IC, to overcome powerful challengers. No matter how far the code goes, as long as it doesn't make you completely invincible, someone can use their mind to overcome it, and smart roleplay and knowing to place these powerful Guilds in the right situation WILL overcome them.


 Let these changes go to work. Play a mage, play a ranger, shoot arrows, and come back with data if it's unbalanced. Don't worry about the ifs, or what's going to happen. I will not go IC, but I can tell you that mages have a lot of reasons they won't absolutely dominate the MUD because stamina changes came in - and I don't think they dominated it before.

 And even giving the benefit of the doubt, assuming mages are ultra-powerful, changing stamina losses in regards to these skills won't really change that. It doesn't widen the gap if you can't shoot more than 20 arrows at someone. A good ranger doesn't need 20, and a good mage only needs that first warning shot to know what's up and respond accordingly. When two veteran players meet, it becomes a battle of knowledge, not spamming kick/bash/disarm/shoot/shoot at people over and over again.

 Let this change address what it was designed to handle, and in a month if you feel the way you do and have good data to support it, I am sure the staff will listen.

[Cenghiz]

If one wants to play an outdoors, independent character they were already at a disadvantage if they chose warrior or ranger over a mage guild.

That is totally correct. Mages have the advantage, while every mage character needs the patience to wait for at least 20 days to receive that advantage. But this is how it's supposed to be.

...added spells for Mages...

Natron? Have you read my post?

"You are NOT supposed to kill mages one on one, if you're not REALLY sure you can kill them because they're unprepared. It's impossible to kill even an unprepared mage so often for most of the classes I played."

And about new spells? *chuckle* They're not always "uber fart of instadeath." Some spells perform cantrips, some are totally towards specific tasks which do not give codewise benefits when it comes to battling. Which classes had spells added? Rukkians. I have IC knowledge about it but of course I can't tell.. But rukkians are not gifted with ability to kill warriors easier than they could before. It got even harder, you'd know why if you had played a rukkian before and after the spells were added.
Nilazi? I have no idea but, nilazi were already capable of killing people with great ease. I don't think it can be made easier for them.

Note: Seems I forgot that a spell is added to Drovians.. Sorrily I have no idea about it.

Stamina drain for mages? I wouldn't say no to that. I would be nice to have a coded remainder that the magicker is exhausted because of the effort... But it won't be really really useful, too. They can rest comfortably after killing the warrior. You're still imagining a warrior battling a mage that takes about five minutes in your head. This is not the picture. What often happens is the mage speaking seven words swiftly, killing the warrior/incapacipating the warrior/retreating to safety instantly/becoming invulnerable to stone, obsidian or wood.

Being open to attack when invisible? Why? Rooms are not four-feet wide and magickers are not idiots. Why wouldn't they choose a spot furthest away from you, cast, so that in that moment of concentration you see the mage nearly 30 feet away from you for a moment? Why do they need to cast at the reach of your sword?

Or how about magickal sub-guilds?

Translation: I don't like mages being strong, so I want to see half-mages who can protect themselves with warrior abilities.
Didn't feel sensible to me.

Or a skill for non-mages centered around spell resistance? It could branch from barrier. If a mage can cast spells to protect him/her from blades and arrows, why can't a non-mage use their psionic ability to shield them from magickal attacks?

Let it be added.. What is the use? Let's say you have the ability. But never trained it against a mage. (Please let's not even consider an ability that can be trained without seeing the actual thing all your life) So your skill level is pretty low. A fire mage comes and hurls a huge fireball at you. You fail your resistance check and die.
As second, I believe -but not sure of course- there's already a spell resistance. And I'm nearly sure it rises slowly, every time you fail and get affected by an agreessive spell. Also there are other cautions that you can/should find out on your own.

I like RPing, in RL or here on ARM, in a world that has balance.

Arm never had the balance. Merchants cannot kill. Pickpockets cannot become uber warriors. Burglars are shitty compared to a ranger or warrior. D-elves are somewhat more advantageous than other races in most aspects. Sorcerers can cook tea for themselves while their magickal minions shred you to tears. A templar's word is the law. If you're not a ranger, you're often dead in a longing storm. Half-elves can barely get acceptance. Tuluk has wood, Allanak has not. Allanak has obsidian, Tuluk has not. 40-day-old chars may die for the word of a noble. Nobles are often targets of magickal assaults, even when they do nothing but play with their pleasure slaves. Pickpockets may starve if they cannot find victims. Victims starve because a pickpocket finds them, unaware what happened at all.
Arm is not balanced at all.

[Halaster]

Being the one who's coded most of the new spells lately, I have to say that that's not going to change.  I'm still going to keep on trucking.

Why?

Because that's what I enjoy doing (and frankly, it's easier than touching our combat code, heh).

I don't really want to, or feel like, making a new combat skill, or a new way to steal daggers.  I'm not even in the same ballpark as Morgenes or Tiernan or Xygax as far as code expertise goes, so I'm going to stick with what I can and want to do.  The alternative is that I won't code at all.  And that's not the choice I'm going to make.

So if you're unhappy that we've added new spells in the past 1.5 years... sorry about your luck.

My goal over the past 1.5 years has been to give sharper teeth to mages (elementalists specifically), because honestly speaking, most of them were chump-change compared to what we thought they should be.  We tried to tell everyone that they must roleplay being afraid of mages - but let's face it, they didn't have a good reason to be so.  Now, they're getting there.  I think by the fact some people are complaining that they're getting too powerful means I SUCCEEDED.  YAY ME!

[amoeba]

Arm never had the balance. Merchants cannot kill. Pickpockets cannot become uber warriors. Burglars are shitty compared to a ranger or warrior. D-elves are somewhat more advantageous than other races in most aspects. Sorcerers can cook tea for themselves while their magickal minions shred you to tears. A templar's word is the law. If you're not a ranger, you're often dead in a longing storm. Half-elves can barely get acceptance. Tuluk has wood, Allanak has not. Allanak has obsidian, Tuluk has not. 40-day-old chars may die for the word of a noble. Nobles are often targets of magickal assaults, even when they do nothing but play with their pleasure slaves. Pickpockets may starve if they cannot find victims. Victims starve because a pickpocket finds them, unaware what happened at all.
Arm is not balanced at all.

I have to say, I love the way this was stated. I very much agree.

[SpyGuy]

Just to point out about the idea for stamina drain on mages...they have it.  It's called mana and if you've ever played a mage you'll know it's very finite and when it runs out you're more often than not a sitting duck.

That said I wouldn't mind seeing mage types become visible briefly while casting as others have said.  But then again I believe this would only affect two (maybe three?) of the classes in game for the most part.  So it won't do much at all to fix any perceived advantage mages have, it will just weaken the invisibility spell.  Which already has plenty of loopholes anyways.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Arm never had the balance. Merchants cannot kill. Pickpockets cannot become uber warriors. Burglars are shitty compared to a ranger or warrior. D-elves are somewhat more advantageous than other races in most aspects. Sorcerers can cook tea for themselves while their magickal minions shred you to tears. A templar's word is the law. If you're not a ranger, you're often dead in a longing storm. Half-elves can barely get acceptance. Tuluk has wood, Allanak has not. Allanak has obsidian, Tuluk has not. 40-day-old chars may die for the word of a noble. Nobles are often targets of magickal assaults, even when they do nothing but play with their pleasure slaves. Pickpockets may starve if they cannot find victims. Victims starve because a pickpocket finds them, unaware what happened at all.
Arm is not balanced at all.

I have to say, I love the way this was stated. I very much agree.

I agree.

[Intrepid]

I agree with the above as well.

And to add: It's obvious some of you don't play magickers and many of
you never have if you think giving stamina instead of mana is a good way
to "properly" balance mages.  Stamina has almost always been in higher
supply than mana is and comes back faster.

So, by all means--let's give mages mana and see them REALLY tear apart the norms!

You don't lose stamina from wiggling your fingers and saying bippity
boppity boop.  Your link to the elemental planes is not physical.  It's not
even mental.  It's meant to be a link you have no explanation for.

Lastly: Please read the docs.  Every race has saves against certain things
like poisons and magick.  Some races are more resistant than others.
You don't have to ask for what's already in play--it just isn't total magick
resistance like some of you want.

[LoD]

Arm never had the balance. Merchants cannot kill. Pickpockets cannot become uber warriors. Burglars are shitty compared to a ranger or warrior. D-elves are somewhat more advantageous than other races in most aspects. Sorcerers can cook tea for themselves while their magickal minions shred you to tears. A templar's word is the law. If you're not a ranger, you're often dead in a longing storm. Half-elves can barely get acceptance. Tuluk has wood, Allanak has not. Allanak has obsidian, Tuluk has not. 40-day-old chars may die for the word of a noble. Nobles are often targets of magickal assaults, even when they do nothing but play with their pleasure slaves. Pickpockets may starve if they cannot find victims. Victims starve because a pickpocket finds them, unaware what happened at all.
Arm is not balanced at all.

This is a short sighted view of balance, and untrue.  You are looking at too small a picture to understand how balance is achieved.

For example, you say that Tuluk has wood, Allanak has not.  Allanak has obsidian, Tuluk has not.  Is this not balance?  Tuluk and Allanak each have access to resources the other does not.  The north is plentiful in wood and game while the south is rich in obsidian and spice.  How does this describe an unbalanced state?

If a mage can kill a warrior, and a warrior can kill a merchant, and a merchant can hire people to kill a ranger, and a ranger can kill a mage, then how is that unbalanced?  In fact, the idea that each class has advantages over another and goes about their business in a different manner describes an extremely balanced environment where no ONE choice is the best.

A templar orders the death of a desert elf in the City, a desert elf orders the death of a templar in the desert.

Magick is not balanced by its relation to the killing potential of other guilds (i.e. mages can be more powerful than warriors, etc...).  Magick is balanced by volume and society.  If there were as many magickers as normal folk, then I think before too long there wouldn't be any normal folk.  That is not the case, however, because magickers not only comprise a smaller portion of the world's population, they are hunted, killed, hated, mistrusted, used and abused.  Their abundance of power is curbed by their disadvantages.

Arm has always had balance, and always will.  What I think you mean is that all things are not created equal -- and this is true.  But even objects of different sizes, shapes, weights, heights, strengths and weaknesses can co-exist on a balanced scale.

-LoD