I must share a grievance...

[Natron]

With the watch skill pick-pockets can no longer pick pockets.  With the stamina penalties, warriors can no longer fight.  With the change to the armor code and now the stamina penalty to shoot, rangers can no longer hunt with ranged weapons.

I can appreciate the struggle of every Mage at how Uber-powerful every non-mage guild is, but continually making non-mages weaker at their primary skill and continually adding spells for Mages seems kind of... how do I say this... unbalancing.

If this is the path we wish to pursue, I have a suggestion.  Simplify the game into two guilds:  Mage, and Victim.  The Mages will be able to do all these really cool things and wield untold power, and the Victims can sit around and pant a lot until some Mage comes to put them out of their misery.

Does anyone else feel this way, or conversely think me a total idiot?

[mansa]

I think...

When a mage is invisible and 'starting to cast' they should be able to be hit.  They should be 'visible' for that split second.

Props to Marko for bringing up that idea.

[Halaster]

With the watch skill pick-pockets can no longer pick pockets.

Untrue.

With the stamina penalties, warriors can no longer fight.

A silly statement, to put it nicely.  Absolutely absurd to be a little more blunt.

 With the change to the armor code and now the stamina penalty to shoot, rangers can no longer hunt with ranged weapons.

Again, a silly statement .. or.. completely absurd.  Take your pick.

I understand you may feel these things are more difficult, but to say they "can no longer" do these things is just outright silly, and not really even discussion worthy.

[Ritley]

Total idiot to be frank Natron.

Warriors can still fight; they don't need to use kick, bash, and disarm to still be uber. And it's only if you spam them you'll feel the disadvantage.

Same with all the others.

Mages aren't too powerful, it doesn't work like that. A assassin could kill a mage, if the mage doesn't see him... because of backstab. A warrior can beat a assassin in close combat. A ranger can beat a warrior in ranged combat..

It's a circle.

Of course mages are powerful, but if used in the right way so are non karma guilds.

Point is; mages are going to be more powerful. It's just realistic. But mages fail in other points... a warrior could easily do other things; a assassin could take someone out quickly with backstab, a ranger could stay alive in the desert the rest of his life.. and a merchant could easily have the byn behind him to justify his decision.

and unlike mages, non karma guilds can make some pretty cool friends.

Even if they can't kill a magicker in a fight.. it's as simple as this for a cunning merchant.

contact templar

psi This magicker is pissing me off.

Remember.. non karma guilds are also powerful.

Too be honest, I prefer magickers. Not because of their power, but because of other reasons... Yes magickers are more powerful, so what? Is this game about power? no. It's about playing out a role correctly. And with these new changes your more capable than before.

Good on you staff.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I think mages are "balanced" in the sense that 99% of the Known World would gladly kill them if given half a chance.

[LoD]

And with these new changes your more capable (of playing out a role correctly) than before.

I've seen no changes with regards to stamina draining abilities that allows one to be more capable of playing out their role correctly.  I see an implementation of code to manage abusive players under the guise that it promotes a more "realistic" approach to combat fatigue.

If that were the case, I wouldn't mind seeing magick spells fitted with a stamina drain as well to represent the fatigue of channeling their power.  Mana obviously doesn't represent physical fatigue, because it does not impair their ability to move, forage, or partake in other physical activities.  It would make sense to me that channeling powers from an elemental plane of existence would be as physically taxing, if not more, than throwing a kick out at someone in a fight.

-LoD

Total idiot to be frank Natron.

Keep it civil or don't post at all.

[LoD]

Total idiot to be frank Natron.

Keep it civil or don't post at all.

I almost wrote the same thing, except that Natron ends his post with this:

Does anyone else feel this way, or conversely think me a total idiot?

Not that he actually wanted someone to call him an idiot, but nonetheless Ritley was answering his question.

-LoD

[Sneaky kank]

Who's telling you we can't steal any more? I stole thrice, from belts, with a pickpocket who's younger than one-day mark, today. And if an imm watched me, he/she possibly knows I have never twinked my skills, including 'peek'.
I believe steal is made easier when someone's not watching you. Try it first, then come tell people "pickpockets can no longer pick.". To tell the truth, I wasted a loooong deal of time for a perfect escape route and my hands were shaking because I was nearly sure I would fail. Do not discourage people with senseless posts. Steal works the same as before. Just do not fool around with raised hoods and act suspicious.

[Intrepid]

How many threads have we had so far about people complaining about
this exact same topic?

Do we really need this brought up over and over again, guys?

[Cenghiz]

Why's everyone obsessed with mages? This is 107th time I'm telling it: "You are NOT supposed to kill mages one on one, if you're not REALLY sure you can kill them because they're unprepared. It's impossible to kill even an unprepared mage so often for most of the classes I played."
About warriors? C'mon! I don't even bother answering.
Rangers? Bah. If you're speaking about a bahamet or mekillot, you're right. Because of their armor, you will not be able to kill them any more on your own I believe. But you shouldn't kill them on your own anyway. I don't think scrabs, beetles and raptors have huge armor classes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
And about new spells? *chuckle* They're not always "uber fart of instadeath." Some spells perform cantrips, some are totally towards specific tasks which do not give codewise benefits when it comes to battling. Which classes had spells added? Rukkians. I have IC knowledge about it but of course I can't tell.. But rukkians are not gifted with ability to kill warriors easier than they could before. It got even harder, you'd know why if you had played a rukkian before and after the spells were added.
Nilazi? I have no idea but, nilazi were already capable of killing people with great ease. I don't think it can be made easier for them.
I'm trying to understand your frustration but... I cannot.

[Larrath]

Honestly.  Unlike most MUDs, not all spells in Arm are geared towards combat or even things that appear to be useful.  And the good combat spells usually take a LONG time to get, and I'm not talking 20 days here.
Just remember that magickers have to deal with a very long period of extreme vulnerability while having a truckload of enemies before they can even protect themselves reasonably.

And having new spells doesn't mean magickers can fight you better.  Hell, for all you know the new spell could be 'Halitosis' that must be cast before 'Fart of Death' is available.  Or it could be a spell that creates a flower or a shiny rock or make bodies of water sing.  Just about anyone who's played a magicker (sometimes after a bit of branching) had at least one or two spells that really, really made them wonder why someone took the time to even code and what the hell they're even good for.

Warriors can fight just as well as before, they simply can't fight as unrealistically as before.  Thieves can still be stealthy, but they can't be so obvious about it.  Rangers can use archery but they can't fire 50 arrows per minute.  Magickers have their own disadvantages, you'll see them when you play one and try to take down something.

[Folker]

First of all, I doubt that the author of this thread actually tried out all three areas that he mentioned himself .

Second of all, relax. Each of these changes removed a bit of uberness from each of the guilds, but didnt completely incapacitate them. There's still plenty of manuever. Atleast for warriors/rangers. For pickpockets, I currently have no experience unfortunately.

[Natron]

Thank you for your replies.  In case it was unclear my saying "No longer can..." was meant to be hyperbole.  I think there's an imbalance in the game between Mages and non-Mages, and with stamina-drains and added spells for Mages that gulf is widening further.

People keep writing about it because it's frustrating.  If one wants to play an outdoors, independent character they were already at a disadvantage if they chose warrior or ranger over a mage guild.  Now it just feels more unbalanced.  Why, other than perhaps for the challenge of it, would someone choose not to be a mage for the outdoors type of adventure?  This fact partly explains why, as a an outdoors independent character, I meet five or six mages for every one ranger or warrior.  

I liked the following ideas:

I like the idea of adding stamina-drain to mages, or making them open to attack if they cast while cloaked.  Or something to level the playing field...

Or how about magickal sub-guilds?

Or a skill for non-mages centered around spell resistance?  It could branch from barrier.  If a mage can cast spells to protect him/her from blades and arrows, why can't a non-mage use their psionic ability to shield them from magickal attacks?

I like RPing, in RL or here on ARM, in a world that has balance.  Mages are icky in their own way, thieves are icky in their own way, warriors are icky in their own way, etc. and it feels like the recent code changes have hindered that balance.

Thank you for your replies, both positive and negative.

-Natron

[Medena]

Why is everyone obsessed with classes lately? And on comparing them with each other? And on skills and stats?  Sheesh, let's just play our characters in this role-playing game.

How many threads have we had so far about people complaining about this exact same topic?

Do we really need this brought up over and over again, guys?

Hear, hear!

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Natron wrote:

Why, other than perhaps for the challenge of it, would someone choose not to be a mage for the outdoors type of adventure? This fact partly explains why, as a an outdoors independent character, I meet five or six mages for every one ranger or warrior.

Not all magick-types are capable of surviving in the wilderness. In fact, I'd venture to say that (from day 0, anyhow) most cannot.
Any idiot ranger, however, can "forage food".
I can't comment on how many magickers you're meeting in-game, but I will say that anyone picking a magicker over a ranger so they can survive in the wilds better should be prepared to be sorely disappointed.
Natron wrote:

Or a skill for non-mages centered around spell resistance? It could branch from barrier. If a mage can cast spells to protect him/her from blades and arrows, why can't a non-mage use their psionic ability to shield them from magickal attacks?

How do you know a currently-existing skill/command doesn't do this?
Natron wrote:

I like RPing, in RL or here on ARM, in a world that has balance. Mages are icky in their own way, thieves are icky in their own way, warriors are icky in their own way, etc. and it feels like the recent code changes have hindered that balance.

The Armageddon staff, so far as I can tell, have never really been worried about game balance. A pickpocket shouldn't really be "balanced" against a defiler; a merchant doesn't really need to be "balanced" against a warrior. If you're really looking for game-balance, then (and I'm not trying to be snarky here), you should probably look at some others MUDs. That just isn't what Arm is about.

[Wykydtronn]

Why is everyone obsessed with classes lately? And on comparing them with each other? And on skills and stats?  Sheesh, let's just play our characters in this role-playing game.

Because Arm is not a MUSH.

Our character skills, stats, and general capacity very much effect them and our role play.

Not that I agree at the topic at hand but its silly to say things like "Stats and skills don't matter".

If they don't matter... why do we have them?  Class balance and the way a class full fills a role very much effects how you can role play them.  So simply, they are going to be discussed whether any one likes it or not.


Natron:  Magickers are suspose to be fucking scary.  Code wise and role play wise.  They are meant to be feared and loathed for a reason.

Turning them into bunnies or even bringing them down to a warriors level would defeat the purpose of having them.

[adgohan]

Though it's pretty rare I post, I thought I'd try my best to clear up a few issues that have been circulating with these new changes, based on how much I've read on these threads..

* Elementalists aren't overpopulated - we aren't actually finding a huge ratio of them to warriors/rangers in the game - staff said this in this thread:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18361&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

  I think you may be experiencing this because of the places you hang out,
aka...I don't believe you would be likely to see a mage throwing spells inside Tuluk or Allanak, rather if you are visiting out of the way places that possibly have food or water or sustainable living conditions, your chances of meeting mages and other rogues will probably increase.

* The stamina changes are not to limit or disable any of the melee classes, rather - they are to prevent abuse of certain skills that this change has been applied to.

  So this skill shouldn't cripple a warrior by making it unrealistic to kick, bash, or disarm in a fight. It should not cripple a ranger by making it unrealistic to shoot arrows in a fight. I think if Morgenes sees this happening, it'll get changed.

  Rather, this is to prevent people from kicking 20 times over and over again in a fight, to sway the battle off what would realistically happen - and it is the same for bash, and shooting arrows.

 In a real life scenario, kicking repeatedly, shooting arrows, and thrusting your shoulder at people - combined with high levels of movement and physical exertion, does take stamina. And after a few minutes of fighting -  if you are not well seasoned, you will feel taxed. I will yield for adrenaline and a couple other reasonings, but most of the time - you should feel pretty tired if you're in a constant fight, and this change reflects that.

* This game is not meant to be balanced between all classes, ala it isn't World of Warcraft or Everquest.

 Half-Giants are insane, in some respects. I've met, and played, elementalists that I've just shook my head at, because they were psychotically powerful. The game wasn't designed to be balanced - Zalanthas is hard, and there are people that are better, and stronger, than you. You will need to use your mind, both OOC and realistically IC, to overcome powerful challengers. No matter how far the code goes, as long as it doesn't make you completely invincible, someone can use their mind to overcome it, and smart roleplay and knowing to place these powerful Guilds in the right situation WILL overcome them.


 Let these changes go to work. Play a mage, play a ranger, shoot arrows, and come back with data if it's unbalanced. Don't worry about the ifs, or what's going to happen. I will not go IC, but I can tell you that mages have a lot of reasons they won't absolutely dominate the MUD because stamina changes came in - and I don't think they dominated it before.

 And even giving the benefit of the doubt, assuming mages are ultra-powerful, changing stamina losses in regards to these skills won't really change that. It doesn't widen the gap if you can't shoot more than 20 arrows at someone. A good ranger doesn't need 20, and a good mage only needs that first warning shot to know what's up and respond accordingly. When two veteran players meet, it becomes a battle of knowledge, not spamming kick/bash/disarm/shoot/shoot at people over and over again.

 Let this change address what it was designed to handle, and in a month if you feel the way you do and have good data to support it, I am sure the staff will listen.

[Cenghiz]

If one wants to play an outdoors, independent character they were already at a disadvantage if they chose warrior or ranger over a mage guild.

That is totally correct. Mages have the advantage, while every mage character needs the patience to wait for at least 20 days to receive that advantage. But this is how it's supposed to be.

...added spells for Mages...

Natron? Have you read my post?

"You are NOT supposed to kill mages one on one, if you're not REALLY sure you can kill them because they're unprepared. It's impossible to kill even an unprepared mage so often for most of the classes I played."

And about new spells? *chuckle* They're not always "uber fart of instadeath." Some spells perform cantrips, some are totally towards specific tasks which do not give codewise benefits when it comes to battling. Which classes had spells added? Rukkians. I have IC knowledge about it but of course I can't tell.. But rukkians are not gifted with ability to kill warriors easier than they could before. It got even harder, you'd know why if you had played a rukkian before and after the spells were added.
Nilazi? I have no idea but, nilazi were already capable of killing people with great ease. I don't think it can be made easier for them.

Note: Seems I forgot that a spell is added to Drovians.. Sorrily I have no idea about it.

Stamina drain for mages? I wouldn't say no to that. I would be nice to have a coded remainder that the magicker is exhausted because of the effort... But it won't be really really useful, too. They can rest comfortably after killing the warrior. You're still imagining a warrior battling a mage that takes about five minutes in your head. This is not the picture. What often happens is the mage speaking seven words swiftly, killing the warrior/incapacipating the warrior/retreating to safety instantly/becoming invulnerable to stone, obsidian or wood.

Being open to attack when invisible? Why? Rooms are not four-feet wide and magickers are not idiots. Why wouldn't they choose a spot furthest away from you, cast, so that in that moment of concentration you see the mage nearly 30 feet away from you for a moment? Why do they need to cast at the reach of your sword?

Or how about magickal sub-guilds?

Translation: I don't like mages being strong, so I want to see half-mages who can protect themselves with warrior abilities.
Didn't feel sensible to me.

Or a skill for non-mages centered around spell resistance? It could branch from barrier. If a mage can cast spells to protect him/her from blades and arrows, why can't a non-mage use their psionic ability to shield them from magickal attacks?

Let it be added.. What is the use? Let's say you have the ability. But never trained it against a mage. (Please let's not even consider an ability that can be trained without seeing the actual thing all your life) So your skill level is pretty low. A fire mage comes and hurls a huge fireball at you. You fail your resistance check and die.
As second, I believe -but not sure of course- there's already a spell resistance. And I'm nearly sure it rises slowly, every time you fail and get affected by an agreessive spell. Also there are other cautions that you can/should find out on your own.

I like RPing, in RL or here on ARM, in a world that has balance.

Arm never had the balance. Merchants cannot kill. Pickpockets cannot become uber warriors. Burglars are shitty compared to a ranger or warrior. D-elves are somewhat more advantageous than other races in most aspects. Sorcerers can cook tea for themselves while their magickal minions shred you to tears. A templar's word is the law. If you're not a ranger, you're often dead in a longing storm. Half-elves can barely get acceptance. Tuluk has wood, Allanak has not. Allanak has obsidian, Tuluk has not. 40-day-old chars may die for the word of a noble. Nobles are often targets of magickal assaults, even when they do nothing but play with their pleasure slaves. Pickpockets may starve if they cannot find victims. Victims starve because a pickpocket finds them, unaware what happened at all.
Arm is not balanced at all.

[Halaster]

Being the one who's coded most of the new spells lately, I have to say that that's not going to change.  I'm still going to keep on trucking.

Why?

Because that's what I enjoy doing (and frankly, it's easier than touching our combat code, heh).

I don't really want to, or feel like, making a new combat skill, or a new way to steal daggers.  I'm not even in the same ballpark as Morgenes or Tiernan or Xygax as far as code expertise goes, so I'm going to stick with what I can and want to do.  The alternative is that I won't code at all.  And that's not the choice I'm going to make.

So if you're unhappy that we've added new spells in the past 1.5 years... sorry about your luck.

My goal over the past 1.5 years has been to give sharper teeth to mages (elementalists specifically), because honestly speaking, most of them were chump-change compared to what we thought they should be.  We tried to tell everyone that they must roleplay being afraid of mages - but let's face it, they didn't have a good reason to be so.  Now, they're getting there.  I think by the fact some people are complaining that they're getting too powerful means I SUCCEEDED.  YAY ME!

[amoeba]

Arm never had the balance. Merchants cannot kill. Pickpockets cannot become uber warriors. Burglars are shitty compared to a ranger or warrior. D-elves are somewhat more advantageous than other races in most aspects. Sorcerers can cook tea for themselves while their magickal minions shred you to tears. A templar's word is the law. If you're not a ranger, you're often dead in a longing storm. Half-elves can barely get acceptance. Tuluk has wood, Allanak has not. Allanak has obsidian, Tuluk has not. 40-day-old chars may die for the word of a noble. Nobles are often targets of magickal assaults, even when they do nothing but play with their pleasure slaves. Pickpockets may starve if they cannot find victims. Victims starve because a pickpocket finds them, unaware what happened at all.
Arm is not balanced at all.

I have to say, I love the way this was stated. I very much agree.

[SpyGuy]

Just to point out about the idea for stamina drain on mages...they have it.  It's called mana and if you've ever played a mage you'll know it's very finite and when it runs out you're more often than not a sitting duck.

That said I wouldn't mind seeing mage types become visible briefly while casting as others have said.  But then again I believe this would only affect two (maybe three?) of the classes in game for the most part.  So it won't do much at all to fix any perceived advantage mages have, it will just weaken the invisibility spell.  Which already has plenty of loopholes anyways.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Arm never had the balance. Merchants cannot kill. Pickpockets cannot become uber warriors. Burglars are shitty compared to a ranger or warrior. D-elves are somewhat more advantageous than other races in most aspects. Sorcerers can cook tea for themselves while their magickal minions shred you to tears. A templar's word is the law. If you're not a ranger, you're often dead in a longing storm. Half-elves can barely get acceptance. Tuluk has wood, Allanak has not. Allanak has obsidian, Tuluk has not. 40-day-old chars may die for the word of a noble. Nobles are often targets of magickal assaults, even when they do nothing but play with their pleasure slaves. Pickpockets may starve if they cannot find victims. Victims starve because a pickpocket finds them, unaware what happened at all.
Arm is not balanced at all.

I have to say, I love the way this was stated. I very much agree.

I agree.

[Intrepid]

I agree with the above as well.

And to add: It's obvious some of you don't play magickers and many of
you never have if you think giving stamina instead of mana is a good way
to "properly" balance mages.  Stamina has almost always been in higher
supply than mana is and comes back faster.

So, by all means--let's give mages mana and see them REALLY tear apart the norms!

You don't lose stamina from wiggling your fingers and saying bippity
boppity boop.  Your link to the elemental planes is not physical.  It's not
even mental.  It's meant to be a link you have no explanation for.

Lastly: Please read the docs.  Every race has saves against certain things
like poisons and magick.  Some races are more resistant than others.
You don't have to ask for what's already in play--it just isn't total magick
resistance like some of you want.

[LoD]

Arm never had the balance. Merchants cannot kill. Pickpockets cannot become uber warriors. Burglars are shitty compared to a ranger or warrior. D-elves are somewhat more advantageous than other races in most aspects. Sorcerers can cook tea for themselves while their magickal minions shred you to tears. A templar's word is the law. If you're not a ranger, you're often dead in a longing storm. Half-elves can barely get acceptance. Tuluk has wood, Allanak has not. Allanak has obsidian, Tuluk has not. 40-day-old chars may die for the word of a noble. Nobles are often targets of magickal assaults, even when they do nothing but play with their pleasure slaves. Pickpockets may starve if they cannot find victims. Victims starve because a pickpocket finds them, unaware what happened at all.
Arm is not balanced at all.

This is a short sighted view of balance, and untrue.  You are looking at too small a picture to understand how balance is achieved.

For example, you say that Tuluk has wood, Allanak has not.  Allanak has obsidian, Tuluk has not.  Is this not balance?  Tuluk and Allanak each have access to resources the other does not.  The north is plentiful in wood and game while the south is rich in obsidian and spice.  How does this describe an unbalanced state?

If a mage can kill a warrior, and a warrior can kill a merchant, and a merchant can hire people to kill a ranger, and a ranger can kill a mage, then how is that unbalanced?  In fact, the idea that each class has advantages over another and goes about their business in a different manner describes an extremely balanced environment where no ONE choice is the best.

A templar orders the death of a desert elf in the City, a desert elf orders the death of a templar in the desert.

Magick is not balanced by its relation to the killing potential of other guilds (i.e. mages can be more powerful than warriors, etc...).  Magick is balanced by volume and society.  If there were as many magickers as normal folk, then I think before too long there wouldn't be any normal folk.  That is not the case, however, because magickers not only comprise a smaller portion of the world's population, they are hunted, killed, hated, mistrusted, used and abused.  Their abundance of power is curbed by their disadvantages.

Arm has always had balance, and always will.  What I think you mean is that all things are not created equal -- and this is true.  But even objects of different sizes, shapes, weights, heights, strengths and weaknesses can co-exist on a balanced scale.

-LoD

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think the point, LoD, is that the classes don't codedly equal each other. And he's right. Armageddon has managed an astonishing balance using things that are not based in concrete. And I like it. Armageddon is simply not built to be fair, but it still manages to be. I appreciate that.

[LoD]

I think the point, LoD, is that the classes don't codedly equal each other. And he's right. Armageddon has managed an astonishing balance using things that are not based in concrete. And I like it. Armageddon is simply not built to be fair, but it still manages to be. I appreciate that.

Then perhaps he should choose wording that says as much.  I was responding to the two times in that paragraph he claims that there is no balance in Armageddon.  There may not be equality, but there is balance.

-LoD

[amoeba]

I think the point, LoD, is that the classes don't codedly equal each other. And he's right. Armageddon has managed an astonishing balance using things that are not based in concrete. And I like it. Armageddon is simply not built to be fair, but it still manages to be. I appreciate that.

Then perhaps he should choose wording that says as much.  I was responding to the two times in that paragraph he claims that there is no balance in Armageddon.  There may not be equality, but there is balance.

-LoD

You are dealing with a point of sematics which only causes to muddy the conversation, yes there may be an -overall- point of balance, even if each individual element is not equal with the other.

[Folker]

To be honest, people often confuse the whole issue of 'balance' of the guilds, and the availability of niches for each guild.

While the niches may differ, since the guilds do not really limit the character concept in any way, those niches 'must' be available as a 'minimum' for those guilds, whether the player chooses to tap them or not.

The way I see those niches, they are as follows;

Warriors are ment to kick ass via a direct approach.
Rangers are ment to demonstrate versatility and survivability in harsh environment.
Pickpockets are meant to rob PCs
Burglars are basically the rangers of the cities.
Assassins are a balancing factor that ensures that  'any' character, no matter how powerful, is still a mortal being.
Merchants are the movers of the social infrastructure within Zalanthas.
Magicians are to provide a disbalancing factor, that ensures an 'always' present outside force that can appear and fuck your plans at 'any moment. They are also there to provide an easy access for fear and hatred, without having to rely on Templars, who are rather few.

Those are the niches as I envision them, and as long as each guild has atleast 'that' option with them codedly, then they're as balanced as they should be. The fact that there are guilds that are in no way, shape, or form, are capable of ever fighting off another guild is actually a good thing.

[John]

Does anyone else feel this way, or conversely think me a total idiot?

I don't feel this way, so.....

Of course mages are powerful, but if used in the right way so are non karma guilds.

NOTE: Newbie mages are as weak as the Gaj's ale. Perhaps those who have played skilled mages in the past are stronger with a newly generated char, but us newbie mages aren't.

I think there's an imbalance in the game between Mages and non-Mages, and with stamina-drains and added spells for Mages that gulf is widening further.

That's great news. There should be an imbalance. If this is your only complaint, then I have one thing to say. "Deal with it in game." This is an IC problem, not an OOC one. Deal with it ICly.

Why, other than perhaps for the challenge of it, would someone choose not to be a mage for the outdoors type of adventure?

Hmm.. oh that's right. Because I'll get killed if I ever enter Tuluk, gemmed if I ever enter Allanak and pestered if I enter any of the small towns. Also, if I should meet anyone in the wilds chances are pretty good that I'll be attacked.

Now you might be thinking "Oh I've seen plenty of mages in Allanak and Tuluk who weren't killed or gemmed." Chances are, if they keep doing it, they'll become gemmed or killed or working for the Templarate. You can only keep that up for so long.

This fact partly explains why, as a an outdoors independent character, I meet five or six mages for every one ranger or warrior.

Why's this? Oh, that's because the outdoor characters can be hired into one of the Merchant Houses. So that also limits how far they travel. Mages can't be hired at the moment, so they tend to go further abroad.

Also, here's a question. How long did your outdoors character live for?

Or a skill for non-mages centered around spell resistance?  It could branch from barrier.

It's called being a dwarf.

[Angela Christine]

My goal over the past 1.5 years has been to give sharper teeth to mages (elementalists specifically), because honestly speaking, most of them were chump-change compared to what we thought they should be.  We tried to tell everyone that they must roleplay being afraid of mages - but let's face it, they didn't have a good reason to be so.  Now, they're getting there.  I think by the fact some people are complaining that they're getting too powerful means I SUCCEEDED.  YAY ME!

Yay Halaster!

I was just thinking the same thing.  I can remember long threads about how weak and helpless elementalists are.  People wanting them to get weapon skills or be able to cast while wielding to avoid unarmed combat penalties.  There was definitely an OOC perception (which may have been mistaken) that beginning mages were easy pickings, as long as you can type "hit <magicker>" before their casting delay ends.  Now the worm has turned, and the OOC perception (which may be mistaken) is that mages are over-powered.

I honestly don't know -how- powerful mages are now.  I don't play mages often, and despite playing a lot of outdoorsy types I haven't run into a hostile mage in the wilderness in years.  But I am very happy that OOCly people are worried about mage strength.  OOC perceptions do influence IC perceptions, so if people are OOCly concerned that random mages can kick ass, then they are less likely to have their PCs "hunt" mages in an unrealistic manner or attack anyone they see that appears to have a magickal effect they associate with weak mages.  There are times when it is realistic to hunt or kill mages, but it shouldn't be the stock response for the majority of PCs.


Be afraid.  Be moderately afraid.



Angela Christine

[Bebop]

I really don't think this person was trying to say it's impossible.  But of course people are going to jump on it and be scarcastic like they really think that, that's what he meant.

I don't like the stamina changes or the new difficulty added to the theiving guilds either.  While my opinion is obviously not popular, there it is.  And there have just recently been changes, that is obviously why they're being talked about so much.

Magicker subguilds, will never happen.

Edit - Also I am glad Halaster is making magickers more scary/powerful.  Mages -should- be.  And it is well appriected I'm sure.  And not just by magickers.

[Majikal]

I don't mind seeing the changes to sneak and hide and steal over the watch command, all those things SHOULD be difficult to accomplish and on top of all of this I think a good pickpocket is respected more, something not regarded in tuluk as much as I would like to see.

Concerning magickers the new spells and added scariness of them is in my opinion still not scary enough. The way I see it someone who can manipulate the elements should be able to beat the living shit out of you before you know what hit you. People hear that a defiler is on the loose outside of the city but go out hunting all day anyway, sometimes even looking for them! Keep in mind that when you're gonna try to 'hunt' a magicker you realistically wouldn't go chasing after them by yourself.. hearing the rumors of them waggling a finger and making some ranger explode into flames, get struck by lightning, carried away by the winds, lose their vision or any other random magicker shit should make someone chase a magicker with no less than a small army.

I'm in favor of nearly all of the recent changes, especially the one concerning ranged combat. Taking a larger stamina loss for using a bow more powerful for you is awesome and really helps out us weak elves who can't find a bow that fits them for shit.

[Natron]

My last thoughts on the subject...

First of all, I appreciate the feedback.  I agree with most of you on the idea of balance versus equality.  Each guild should be good at what the guild is designed to be able to do.  Burglars burgle, warriors fight, pick-pockets pick pockets, etc.  I liked the code and felt it was pretty balanced before the stamina drain and the watch hurting pick-pockets, and it was (perhaps still is) my concern that that balance, not equality, is being shifted too much in the trend in recent code changes.  

As someone said, I should perhaps give it time to see if it is IC as bad as I think it appears to be.  That seems fair enough; it is entirely possible I'm just being reactionary.  There was on again/off again interest in my ARM experience, and to that end I've played a 4 day warrior and am currently playing an 8 day ranger.  This is my first MUD experience and early on with my first few characters I didn't know the code well enough to stay alive very long, and this is my first post ever after having played for about 8 months and reading the GDB a lot to try to get a feeling for Armageddon.

To that end I appreciate the gentler rebuttals to what I had to say.  I am, after all, pretty new.  I would play another ranger, and probably even another warrior even with the code changes (I stand by the stamina drain for the warrior code being excessive).  I have not played a pick-pocket, but from reading different threads the general experience since watch seems to be frustration and I would be hesitant to try it.

My goal isn't to scream at people or lay blame at the immortals feet or say the game is now terrible or anything like that.  I like the balance that the game has, and I felt that it was shifting and it would make for a lesser experience.  Further I thought/think that if the balance ever shifts way too far one way or the other that more and more people will play the more powerful side and ignore the less powerful one.  If every mage is a god and every non-mage an insect, everyone will be playing mages at that will affect the Armageddon IC world in less than desirable ways.  If mages are bunnies, as I've now been told they once were, then no one will play or fear them and again it makes the IC world less than optimal.  

I like 95% of Zalanthas, like I suspect most of the rest of you do.  My gpa has suffered since I got hooked on Crackageddon.  My idea of the purpose of having a GDB is to have a chance for everyone to throw in their 2 cents for fixing the little bits and pieces we don't like or think of as not being as good as it could be.  

-Natron

[ale six]

Further I thought/think that if the balance ever shifts way too far one way or the other that more and more people will play the more powerful side and ignore the less powerful one. If every mage is a god and every non-mage an insect, everyone will be playing mages...

I agree with what you're trying to say, but I wonder if you're considering the bigger picture.

I think that, as it currently stands, most mundane guilds already ARE insects to your developed mage, and this is fine. First of all, there are lots of controls on who can even play the powerful mage guilds due to the special app and karma systems. Secondly, a lot of people who could play high-karma magickers still play mostly mundane PCs anyway, for the simple fact that mundane PCs will be more accepted and have an easier time making friends and joining clans and gathering social status than mages will.

Magic breaks the game balance, to the extent that I don't think mage guild abilities and mundane guild abilities should even be compared side by side. Mages are always going to be stronger, as they ought to be. The thing is, at the end of the day everybody is still going to die, and the game really isn't about who is strongest. You'll discover a lot more secrets and have a lot more fun and roleplay by joining a clan or focusing on interacting with other PCs, as opposed to going out into the deserts all the time to kill gith and get buff. It doesn't matter if you're playing a warrior who can kill 4 gith at a time or a Krathi who can kill fifty, sheer raw strength of skills alone isn't enough to leave your mark on the game.

I'll stop ranting and drink more coffee.

Edited: Basically in summary, mages already are more powerful and unbalanced, but there's still lots more reasons to play mundanes and most people still do.

[gfair]

If every mage is a god and every non-mage an insect, everyone will be playing mages at that will affect the Armageddon IC world in less than desirable ways.

-Natron

There will never be a situation where even the majority of the PC Arm population will be mages, since Mages require Karma and trust from staff members, and were so powerful not only 1 year ago, but even more-so today, that their population would, I would guess, be intentionally limited even if there were that many people with karma.


What you are getting at is balanced races, since we see so much of that in other games. Those other games are wrong to balance races and classes, that's just a ridiculous notion. Not even the standard classes in this game are balanced, let alone mage classes. Imbalance is a part of life, and therefore, realistically, it should be in Arm because Arm strives to be realistic physically and socially in my opinion.

I'm also loving the new stamina penalties, this is something that the realists have been talking about for years, and with the current crop of Imms, Arm is more realistic today than ever.


The only thing that Arm seems to be lacking these days is the life-threatening danger near cities. It's close, but not close enough. Cities are encroachments on wildlife, wildlife would be attracted to cities because of the food nearby, and in the real world cities that encroach on wildlife see things like Bears, Moose, Coyotes and Foxes, and Elk end up in those cities, causing trouble. It would be nice to see more threats right in close to the city walls, one league away tops, to ensure a healthy amount of danger.

[Agent_137]

OH NOES.
Armageddon is getting harder!

what ever will we do?

[grog]

OH NOES.
Armageddon is getting harder!

what ever will we do?

Make more characters.

[Treestone Capricorn]

Wow, I hope I never get like this. Everyone's counting days and shit till their mages are "uber", everyone's worried about whether or not their rangers and warriors are gonna get tired because of the stamina drain changes.

I really hope I don't end up like that. I like it, when, my char is so crappy at the skills they have, they have to do pathetic things just to make enough sid to eat. I remember my ranger, who fought like, I think, one gurth, hahaha, man, the rest of the time, I kinda just walked around, hungry, checking the bar tables to see whether or not someone left any food, and if I couldn't find it, then I'd just forage for it. Man, good times.

Frankly, if I make another warrior, I plan on him not even liking fighting, I hope he finds a way to just practice when forced to, because of the byn, and the rest of the time, he'll just kind lay around in the Gaj getting drunk and harassing elves and half-elves.

Oh man, that just gave me a great idea!!! I'm gonna stop worrying about this horrible post-apoclyptic world filled with defilers, corrupt templars, and cunning rogues and thieves getting harder, and act as if it really should be hard. Then, I'm gonna have my character bitch, a lot. Maybe even, when I'm supposed to be training, I'll decide not to. Ya know, take some me time, ya know, sit around, keep an eye out for my superiors, and smoke some spice, like I do in real life.

[Agent_137]

I've been playing nethack a lot lately. I just want all you nubs to know this game [arma] is FUCKING EASY.

[Cenghiz]

Polymorph yer pet, Agent...

[spawnloser]

Polymorph yer pet, Agent...

If it doesn't end up a troll, iron golem, unicorn or dragon, polymorph it again.

[UnderSeven]

Heh, play a mage and be ready to have a very lonely character.  

I think most mages die from bordem.

[Vynestra]

While I dont have much experience with Armaggedon, I have had experience in a few MUDs and MUSHs and the like. What I have found is the journey is much more fun that the destination. How does this apply to this discussion? When it comes right down to it, WHAT I am in some game has nothing to do with what interesting roleplaying experiences I am able to have. Some of the most exciting roles have been when I have been nothing important at all. So to me, trying to figure out what combinations of classes, or actual powers, and all that is just so......*sighs* ....boring?

I love tough, gritty RP where you can have a lot of interesting things happening, without dying...so you can build on those RPing experiences. My biggest problem is dying...Not for death's sake but because it ends RPing for that character and conflict. Death is easy...RPing the effects of having your hand cut off or your eye gouged out, or your ass ....(well you get the picture)...THAT RP is worth gold! That RP is what makes games fun, not the kind of game where you can melt someone out of existance with lazerbeams coming out of your eyeballs.