I must share a grievance...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think the point, LoD, is that the classes don't codedly equal each other. And he's right. Armageddon has managed an astonishing balance using things that are not based in concrete. And I like it. Armageddon is simply not built to be fair, but it still manages to be. I appreciate that.

[LoD]

I think the point, LoD, is that the classes don't codedly equal each other. And he's right. Armageddon has managed an astonishing balance using things that are not based in concrete. And I like it. Armageddon is simply not built to be fair, but it still manages to be. I appreciate that.

Then perhaps he should choose wording that says as much.  I was responding to the two times in that paragraph he claims that there is no balance in Armageddon.  There may not be equality, but there is balance.

-LoD

[amoeba]

I think the point, LoD, is that the classes don't codedly equal each other. And he's right. Armageddon has managed an astonishing balance using things that are not based in concrete. And I like it. Armageddon is simply not built to be fair, but it still manages to be. I appreciate that.

Then perhaps he should choose wording that says as much.  I was responding to the two times in that paragraph he claims that there is no balance in Armageddon.  There may not be equality, but there is balance.

-LoD

You are dealing with a point of sematics which only causes to muddy the conversation, yes there may be an -overall- point of balance, even if each individual element is not equal with the other.

[Folker]

To be honest, people often confuse the whole issue of 'balance' of the guilds, and the availability of niches for each guild.

While the niches may differ, since the guilds do not really limit the character concept in any way, those niches 'must' be available as a 'minimum' for those guilds, whether the player chooses to tap them or not.

The way I see those niches, they are as follows;

Warriors are ment to kick ass via a direct approach.
Rangers are ment to demonstrate versatility and survivability in harsh environment.
Pickpockets are meant to rob PCs
Burglars are basically the rangers of the cities.
Assassins are a balancing factor that ensures that  'any' character, no matter how powerful, is still a mortal being.
Merchants are the movers of the social infrastructure within Zalanthas.
Magicians are to provide a disbalancing factor, that ensures an 'always' present outside force that can appear and fuck your plans at 'any moment. They are also there to provide an easy access for fear and hatred, without having to rely on Templars, who are rather few.

Those are the niches as I envision them, and as long as each guild has atleast 'that' option with them codedly, then they're as balanced as they should be. The fact that there are guilds that are in no way, shape, or form, are capable of ever fighting off another guild is actually a good thing.

[John]

Does anyone else feel this way, or conversely think me a total idiot?

I don't feel this way, so.....

Of course mages are powerful, but if used in the right way so are non karma guilds.

NOTE: Newbie mages are as weak as the Gaj's ale. Perhaps those who have played skilled mages in the past are stronger with a newly generated char, but us newbie mages aren't.

I think there's an imbalance in the game between Mages and non-Mages, and with stamina-drains and added spells for Mages that gulf is widening further.

That's great news. There should be an imbalance. If this is your only complaint, then I have one thing to say. "Deal with it in game." This is an IC problem, not an OOC one. Deal with it ICly.

Why, other than perhaps for the challenge of it, would someone choose not to be a mage for the outdoors type of adventure?

Hmm.. oh that's right. Because I'll get killed if I ever enter Tuluk, gemmed if I ever enter Allanak and pestered if I enter any of the small towns. Also, if I should meet anyone in the wilds chances are pretty good that I'll be attacked.

Now you might be thinking "Oh I've seen plenty of mages in Allanak and Tuluk who weren't killed or gemmed." Chances are, if they keep doing it, they'll become gemmed or killed or working for the Templarate. You can only keep that up for so long.

This fact partly explains why, as a an outdoors independent character, I meet five or six mages for every one ranger or warrior.

Why's this? Oh, that's because the outdoor characters can be hired into one of the Merchant Houses. So that also limits how far they travel. Mages can't be hired at the moment, so they tend to go further abroad.

Also, here's a question. How long did your outdoors character live for?

Or a skill for non-mages centered around spell resistance?  It could branch from barrier.

It's called being a dwarf.

[Angela Christine]

My goal over the past 1.5 years has been to give sharper teeth to mages (elementalists specifically), because honestly speaking, most of them were chump-change compared to what we thought they should be.  We tried to tell everyone that they must roleplay being afraid of mages - but let's face it, they didn't have a good reason to be so.  Now, they're getting there.  I think by the fact some people are complaining that they're getting too powerful means I SUCCEEDED.  YAY ME!

Yay Halaster!

I was just thinking the same thing.  I can remember long threads about how weak and helpless elementalists are.  People wanting them to get weapon skills or be able to cast while wielding to avoid unarmed combat penalties.  There was definitely an OOC perception (which may have been mistaken) that beginning mages were easy pickings, as long as you can type "hit <magicker>" before their casting delay ends.  Now the worm has turned, and the OOC perception (which may be mistaken) is that mages are over-powered.

I honestly don't know -how- powerful mages are now.  I don't play mages often, and despite playing a lot of outdoorsy types I haven't run into a hostile mage in the wilderness in years.  But I am very happy that OOCly people are worried about mage strength.  OOC perceptions do influence IC perceptions, so if people are OOCly concerned that random mages can kick ass, then they are less likely to have their PCs "hunt" mages in an unrealistic manner or attack anyone they see that appears to have a magickal effect they associate with weak mages.  There are times when it is realistic to hunt or kill mages, but it shouldn't be the stock response for the majority of PCs.


Be afraid.  Be moderately afraid.



Angela Christine

[Bebop]

I really don't think this person was trying to say it's impossible.  But of course people are going to jump on it and be scarcastic like they really think that, that's what he meant.

I don't like the stamina changes or the new difficulty added to the theiving guilds either.  While my opinion is obviously not popular, there it is.  And there have just recently been changes, that is obviously why they're being talked about so much.

Magicker subguilds, will never happen.

Edit - Also I am glad Halaster is making magickers more scary/powerful.  Mages -should- be.  And it is well appriected I'm sure.  And not just by magickers.

[Majikal]

I don't mind seeing the changes to sneak and hide and steal over the watch command, all those things SHOULD be difficult to accomplish and on top of all of this I think a good pickpocket is respected more, something not regarded in tuluk as much as I would like to see.

Concerning magickers the new spells and added scariness of them is in my opinion still not scary enough. The way I see it someone who can manipulate the elements should be able to beat the living shit out of you before you know what hit you. People hear that a defiler is on the loose outside of the city but go out hunting all day anyway, sometimes even looking for them! Keep in mind that when you're gonna try to 'hunt' a magicker you realistically wouldn't go chasing after them by yourself.. hearing the rumors of them waggling a finger and making some ranger explode into flames, get struck by lightning, carried away by the winds, lose their vision or any other random magicker shit should make someone chase a magicker with no less than a small army.

I'm in favor of nearly all of the recent changes, especially the one concerning ranged combat. Taking a larger stamina loss for using a bow more powerful for you is awesome and really helps out us weak elves who can't find a bow that fits them for shit.

[Natron]

My last thoughts on the subject...

First of all, I appreciate the feedback.  I agree with most of you on the idea of balance versus equality.  Each guild should be good at what the guild is designed to be able to do.  Burglars burgle, warriors fight, pick-pockets pick pockets, etc.  I liked the code and felt it was pretty balanced before the stamina drain and the watch hurting pick-pockets, and it was (perhaps still is) my concern that that balance, not equality, is being shifted too much in the trend in recent code changes.  

As someone said, I should perhaps give it time to see if it is IC as bad as I think it appears to be.  That seems fair enough; it is entirely possible I'm just being reactionary.  There was on again/off again interest in my ARM experience, and to that end I've played a 4 day warrior and am currently playing an 8 day ranger.  This is my first MUD experience and early on with my first few characters I didn't know the code well enough to stay alive very long, and this is my first post ever after having played for about 8 months and reading the GDB a lot to try to get a feeling for Armageddon.

To that end I appreciate the gentler rebuttals to what I had to say.  I am, after all, pretty new.  I would play another ranger, and probably even another warrior even with the code changes (I stand by the stamina drain for the warrior code being excessive).  I have not played a pick-pocket, but from reading different threads the general experience since watch seems to be frustration and I would be hesitant to try it.

My goal isn't to scream at people or lay blame at the immortals feet or say the game is now terrible or anything like that.  I like the balance that the game has, and I felt that it was shifting and it would make for a lesser experience.  Further I thought/think that if the balance ever shifts way too far one way or the other that more and more people will play the more powerful side and ignore the less powerful one.  If every mage is a god and every non-mage an insect, everyone will be playing mages at that will affect the Armageddon IC world in less than desirable ways.  If mages are bunnies, as I've now been told they once were, then no one will play or fear them and again it makes the IC world less than optimal.  

I like 95% of Zalanthas, like I suspect most of the rest of you do.  My gpa has suffered since I got hooked on Crackageddon.  My idea of the purpose of having a GDB is to have a chance for everyone to throw in their 2 cents for fixing the little bits and pieces we don't like or think of as not being as good as it could be.  

-Natron

[ale six]

Further I thought/think that if the balance ever shifts way too far one way or the other that more and more people will play the more powerful side and ignore the less powerful one. If every mage is a god and every non-mage an insect, everyone will be playing mages...

I agree with what you're trying to say, but I wonder if you're considering the bigger picture.

I think that, as it currently stands, most mundane guilds already ARE insects to your developed mage, and this is fine. First of all, there are lots of controls on who can even play the powerful mage guilds due to the special app and karma systems. Secondly, a lot of people who could play high-karma magickers still play mostly mundane PCs anyway, for the simple fact that mundane PCs will be more accepted and have an easier time making friends and joining clans and gathering social status than mages will.

Magic breaks the game balance, to the extent that I don't think mage guild abilities and mundane guild abilities should even be compared side by side. Mages are always going to be stronger, as they ought to be. The thing is, at the end of the day everybody is still going to die, and the game really isn't about who is strongest. You'll discover a lot more secrets and have a lot more fun and roleplay by joining a clan or focusing on interacting with other PCs, as opposed to going out into the deserts all the time to kill gith and get buff. It doesn't matter if you're playing a warrior who can kill 4 gith at a time or a Krathi who can kill fifty, sheer raw strength of skills alone isn't enough to leave your mark on the game.

I'll stop ranting and drink more coffee.

Edited: Basically in summary, mages already are more powerful and unbalanced, but there's still lots more reasons to play mundanes and most people still do.

[gfair]

If every mage is a god and every non-mage an insect, everyone will be playing mages at that will affect the Armageddon IC world in less than desirable ways.

-Natron

There will never be a situation where even the majority of the PC Arm population will be mages, since Mages require Karma and trust from staff members, and were so powerful not only 1 year ago, but even more-so today, that their population would, I would guess, be intentionally limited even if there were that many people with karma.


What you are getting at is balanced races, since we see so much of that in other games. Those other games are wrong to balance races and classes, that's just a ridiculous notion. Not even the standard classes in this game are balanced, let alone mage classes. Imbalance is a part of life, and therefore, realistically, it should be in Arm because Arm strives to be realistic physically and socially in my opinion.

I'm also loving the new stamina penalties, this is something that the realists have been talking about for years, and with the current crop of Imms, Arm is more realistic today than ever.


The only thing that Arm seems to be lacking these days is the life-threatening danger near cities. It's close, but not close enough. Cities are encroachments on wildlife, wildlife would be attracted to cities because of the food nearby, and in the real world cities that encroach on wildlife see things like Bears, Moose, Coyotes and Foxes, and Elk end up in those cities, causing trouble. It would be nice to see more threats right in close to the city walls, one league away tops, to ensure a healthy amount of danger.

[Agent_137]

OH NOES.
Armageddon is getting harder!

what ever will we do?

[grog]

OH NOES.
Armageddon is getting harder!

what ever will we do?

Make more characters.

[Treestone Capricorn]

Wow, I hope I never get like this. Everyone's counting days and shit till their mages are "uber", everyone's worried about whether or not their rangers and warriors are gonna get tired because of the stamina drain changes.

I really hope I don't end up like that. I like it, when, my char is so crappy at the skills they have, they have to do pathetic things just to make enough sid to eat. I remember my ranger, who fought like, I think, one gurth, hahaha, man, the rest of the time, I kinda just walked around, hungry, checking the bar tables to see whether or not someone left any food, and if I couldn't find it, then I'd just forage for it. Man, good times.

Frankly, if I make another warrior, I plan on him not even liking fighting, I hope he finds a way to just practice when forced to, because of the byn, and the rest of the time, he'll just kind lay around in the Gaj getting drunk and harassing elves and half-elves.

Oh man, that just gave me a great idea!!! I'm gonna stop worrying about this horrible post-apoclyptic world filled with defilers, corrupt templars, and cunning rogues and thieves getting harder, and act as if it really should be hard. Then, I'm gonna have my character bitch, a lot. Maybe even, when I'm supposed to be training, I'll decide not to. Ya know, take some me time, ya know, sit around, keep an eye out for my superiors, and smoke some spice, like I do in real life.

[Agent_137]

I've been playing nethack a lot lately. I just want all you nubs to know this game [arma] is FUCKING EASY.

[Cenghiz]

Polymorph yer pet, Agent...

[spawnloser]

Polymorph yer pet, Agent...

If it doesn't end up a troll, iron golem, unicorn or dragon, polymorph it again.

[UnderSeven]

Heh, play a mage and be ready to have a very lonely character.  

I think most mages die from bordem.

[Vynestra]

While I dont have much experience with Armaggedon, I have had experience in a few MUDs and MUSHs and the like. What I have found is the journey is much more fun that the destination. How does this apply to this discussion? When it comes right down to it, WHAT I am in some game has nothing to do with what interesting roleplaying experiences I am able to have. Some of the most exciting roles have been when I have been nothing important at all. So to me, trying to figure out what combinations of classes, or actual powers, and all that is just so......*sighs* ....boring?

I love tough, gritty RP where you can have a lot of interesting things happening, without dying...so you can build on those RPing experiences. My biggest problem is dying...Not for death's sake but because it ends RPing for that character and conflict. Death is easy...RPing the effects of having your hand cut off or your eye gouged out, or your ass ....(well you get the picture)...THAT RP is worth gold! That RP is what makes games fun, not the kind of game where you can melt someone out of existance with lazerbeams coming out of your eyeballs.