Hatred....

[Smoky]

.... Something there's too little of.

One thing that turns me off from the game is seeing people work together peacefully to get something done.  In a world like Zalanthas most people would only care for themselves or their kin, lately I've seen things that -I- think would, and should never happen.

An example of this would be northerners and southerners.   It's a feud that goes way back, but I still see people from different sides who know nothing of each other getting along.  In my mind, I can see a northerner sitting in the gaj drinking an ale when four or five southerners(drunk or not) approach him and start a fight.  This goes both ways.

I currently play a character in Allanak that's from the north, and I'm disgusted at how little hatred is shown for my character.

A little reminder to all of you slack-ass roleplayers out there,  This is not a normal RPG where you band together and gain experience.  This is a game of kill or be killed, just like the banner ad for arm says "Murder, corruption, betrayal".

And yes, I did call you all slack-ass roleplayers to get you pissed off, maybe that'll help you hate.

Peace out-side,
Smoky

[Kronus]

Allanaki citizens are duplicitous, greedy and best of all, subtle (despite what you northies like to say!). For all you know, they're just smiling at you while you're in the room, and as soon as you leave they get to talking about who gets the honor of sticking a knife in your jugular.

[Anonymous]

This isn't a game of kill or be killed.

Its a game of survival.  Sometimes your survival is best benefited by not killing someone.

That being said, it would be nice if there were more people who were overt about their feelings.

I do also find it funny that an Allanaki elf would get more derision and hatred sent his way than a northerner who moved to Allanak.  That's my opinion.

Personally, I can understand some people wanting to try to be nice to a PC to use them, but I also wish there were more gangs of racist pigs.

[Typo]

Smoky, I hear you 100%. It is especially irritating to be playing someone who should be the object of derision, only to have other PCs treat 'em like a long lost friend. UGH! There have been so many times that I justed wanted to get hated on, to make this MUD seem more like a real world than a collection of people who just wanna sit around circle jerkin each other about how great life is.

In Zalanthas, someone is always shitting on someone else. Nobles shit on the life of the commoner, Templars shit on the life of the commoner, Militia and Soldiers shit on the life of the commoner. So who does the commoner shit on? Anyone who is not a noble, templar, militia, or soldier, and different enough that a clear distinction can be drawn between the two; whether that distinction be geographical, racial, or gender-based.

Conflict breeds good RP like my toes breed fungus. Hate is a simple rp-tool that noobs can grasp and vets can wield like a scalpel. Twinkie-fluff PCs are probably not piss-poor rpers, they just lack the confidence to stand up in a bar and say, "Northies tongue-bathe kankholes!" And few people have the huevos grande enough to play the guy everyone hates.

Simple solution, the rpers out there with the cojones stand up and start spitting the hate, after a while, others will start to follow. In a few months, maybe elves and half-elves will stay out of the bar dominated by drunken mercenaries, or at least go in large groups.

The most memorable RL experiences are the ones where shitty stuff happened, so lets get some shit on Zalanthas!

[Lazloth]

There have been so many times that I justed wanted to get hated on, to make this MUD seem more like a real world than a collection of people who just wanna sit around circle jerkin each other about how great life is.

Hey guys, it is a two-step tango.  You can initiate this air with a subtle insult, sneer, refusal for that 8 sid ale, or whatever .. there are ways to stir the environment without being overt or necessarily endangering your welfare.

It's easy to think or post "Damn, I wish you people would do..."; it's more effective, in my experience, acting in-character and waiting on reactionary emulation.

[X-D]

Hhhhmmm, I have to think that you are all talking about human chars:)

Myself, I never play em but My chars hate you all just the same north south any race but his own, But that does not mean your char will ever know it, survival is paramount so it may not be in his best interest to be overt on his fealings, But don't bet he is gonna run in and help ya against that insane elf either:)

So many ways to go about hating.....

[Midland]

First off, who are you to judge those pcs? Maybe a parent of the pc that was nice to you was a half-breed? Maybe the guy that just said excuse me and smiled was thinking NASTY thoughts on you but didnt know anyone in the tavern or street that would back him up.

Thats the problem with making yourself the "roleplay" police, YOU DONT KNOW the motivation, thoughts, or actions of the other pcs. Whether they are spiced up, drunk, depressed or just being two-faced. If you want to be hated without making actions to make you hated _openly_, (keyword = openly) then next time make a pc to heckle the crap out of those you feel are treated too "nicely".

If you feel someone is acting oocly and being "bad" roleplayers then log it and write the account. That way the imms can check into it, discuss with the player to see if IC situations in the time they have played that pc might have changed their opinions, made them rethink the ideals they started with, etc. Because just like in RL the things going on around your pc will change that pc and just like in RL, you dont know why one person acted a certain way unless you ask.

If someone is treating you too nicely, then take advantage of them and screw them over. Look suspiciously at them and ask if they are a boy bugger and just trying to get you alone in an alley to have at it. Tell them you are Tek's bastard son and they should bow down and worship you. But roleplay is a multifaceted thing. It isnt black and white just because it's typed.

[Anonymous]

First off, who are you to judge those pcs? Maybe a parent of the pc that was nice to you was a half-breed?

But see, if *EVERYONE* had a magicker half-elf Allanaki uncle that was married to a Psi woman from the north who was saved from raiders by a friendly tribe of elves and dwarves working in unison....then the exception becomes the norm.

I've played plenty of open magickers and I *worked* to make people feel uncomfortable around me and still had little or no response.  I made scenes and then wrote about it on the rumor boards.  And instead I ended up working for two noble houses.  *Boggle.*

Seriously, the people who won't be racist ignoramuses should be the very rare exception.

That being said, I don't think that everyone should be expected to grab their pitchforks and light a cross everytime they see someone different....But that sort of reaction should be more prevalent than being their sweet, gentle, understanding and Westernized friend.

[Typo]

Ahh, that's what I love about the GDB, the immediate hyperbolists who leap out of the shadows to flout their esteemed values from their soapbox...whether or not anyone is truly listening...


In Response to Midland----

You're right, I don't know the specifics, but I think I would not be wrong in making the generalized statements I made in my earlier posts. If you disagree, then maybe you should go check up on some of the documentation.

You're right again, in that I am not the "roleplay police", but I don't need a RP badge to make criticisms about how other people play their characters. When I first started playing, I was guilty of every noob flaw in the book...it was the posts on the GDB that brought to light my weaknesses and where I needed to improve. If everyone felt the way you felt, I would still be orgy stealing from VNPCs until an imm told me to stop

And, in case you can't see the thread woven throughout this post, You're right a third time. I could email the account, but then others might not benefit from the experience. No one wants to be told by an Imm, "You're roleplay sucks, fix it." Its a lot more constructive for everyone involved to post targeting the playerbase at large, rather than a player feeling like he is the only one guilty of X offense.

But being right doesn't make you right. The tense race relations of ARM is one of the selling points of the MUD, and it isn't until we start discussing it as a playerbase that we can improve. Brushing it under the carpet and hoping that the other person is a really good RPer, but just hasn't proven it yet, is a twinkie belief.

Good Rpers are born noobs, they've just learned to take criticism in a constructive way.

[Anonymous]

Just to add to Typo's point about whether or not discussing this on the GDB is valuable.

When I first started playing I thought it was a sign of being a mature, enlightened PC to have respect and love for all elves, half-elves, magickers, etc.

If people hadn't brought up posts like this I never would have learned that its actually the opposite.

While I don't necessarily agree with calling everyone slack-ass RPer's, I think the topic is a good one.

[Midland]

Brushing it under the carpet and hoping that the other person is a really good RPer, but just hasn't proven it yet, is a twinkie belief.

Let's address Typo here :

I wasnt responding to your post, unless you changed to a different posting name to remain anonymous in some way. I never implied things should be brushed under the carpet and for everyone to "hope" the other person is a really good RPer. To throw the "twinkie belief" part in sort of made where you were going with your post null and void because it reads as you putting out an insult in what you felt was a semi-polite way after starting the post in the same manner.

In response to Christopher:

I agree, it is a good topic. The way is was put in the beginning, was not. This topic has come up time and time again. I am sure I will see it in future years to come also.

My whole post was that just because someone thinks the other isnt rp'ng as they should, doesnt mean that assumption is correct. I have had people that flat out thought a past pc of mine was a flat out total twink, hated me as the player of that pc, etc, until they found out over the years of what went on behind the scenes and roleplayed with me in other situations.  So yes, I am right in saying that some assumption that the player behind the pc is playing them correctly, should be left to the imms to decide. Yes it feels crappy to get a negative note from an imm if they ARENT but that's life.

Perhaps instead of whining about everyone being so nice instead of playing bad, include the vpcs that run around in torturing your pc or the others. I have heard many complain about templars coming in and singling out pcs and not the npcs/vpcs. That is the same in this instance also. Instead of singling out the pcs being nice why not rp some vpcs harassing you? I have done that when my elf was trying to get adopted into another tribe. I knew the pcs probably wouldnt pick on my elf, so I made the vpcs do it and the other players picked up on it a bit.

[Typo]

Quick ammendum:

When I wrote of a  Twinkie belief, I was refering to a similar case found in law, the "twinkie defense", which is an excuse that sounds solid on the surface, but is really nothing but sugar and air.

I did not mean twinkie as in one who abuses code hoops for their own metagaming experience.

Easy mistake to confuse the two, and partly my fault, I should have explained it better. Hope my previous post now becomes a valid query into the playerbase of this MUD.

[creeper386]

Acctually, I'm going to have to say, Midland is crazy.

There is just not enough hatred no matter HOW you look at it, and even playing characters that go out of their way to try and strike up racism and the like, you don't see much of it.

I don't see it as the DUTY to those people that think too many people are being nice is to try and make them play different. I think it's there choice. But it's like having a RP MUD without interaction... You certainly loose something there. You have to have the hate RP, in Zalanthas it's a major part of the world.

SURE there may be people going about being nice just to be nice, but when EVERY body, doesn't mind elves and doesn't mind magickers and doesn't mind dwarves, it gets alittle crazy. The closest thing to hate RP have I seen is friendly insulting, and it's SICKENING.


Creeper

[Midland]

Acctually, I'm going to have to say, Midland is crazy.

Thanks

Actually, Midland rather see people DO something about things than whine about them. Not everyone is nice and friendly with magickers, elves etc. But I am dropping out of this discussion due to being home sick today and my posts are sucking since I cant string my thoughts in a coherent way to get through.

[Rindan]

I tend to agree that the world could use a little more fire under its ass.  I have played the opposite of the Northerner in the South, namely that of a Southerner in the North.  I too ran into the fact that I was treated pretty evenly.  My character was fairly blunt about being an Allanaki too.  He has tattoos from Allanak and was decked out in the latest and greatest Allanaki armor.  You couldn't really mistake him, and he wasn't exactly the strong silent type.  He was the loud and willing to butt heads type.  I generally found that unless I stood up and screamed 'Glory to the One and Only God King Tektolnes!' people were fairly tolerant.  That said, there were exceptions to the rule.  Three players in particular did a good job reminding me that eyes in the back of my head were not a completely unfavorable thing.  It just wasn't the norm.

I would think that as bad as Northerners might be to the Southern folk, it should be even worse in the reverse.  Allanak suffered an absolutely humiliating[/b] defeat.  In fact, they suffered more then one defeat.  Not only did they lose the North, they lost Luir's, holdings in the west, had a couple acts of terrorism inflicted upon them, and to add insult to injury, the North is having a cultural explosion to dwarf the Allanak.  Allanak is hurting and the average person should be down right pissed about way things are going.

That said, I think the bigger issue is that very few people play a character that is assimilated normally into society.  A character that considers nobility better humans and are thankful to be saved from the wastes by the God King with his infinite power is a relatively rare thing in Allanak.  Most people play having a reason to be jaded against Allanaki society and in general are always one step away from playing rebels or just flat out indifferent.  I think a few more people readily embracing the Allanaki stereotype types could provide some pleasant conflict in the game.

As someone who has in the past played a very stereotypical Allanaki, don't discount playing a stereotype as being boring.  On the contrary, I found the experience to be very pleasant.  Once you play with a strong Allanaki mind set you find that there are plenty of people to clash with because in truth the stereotype is far more rare then the exception.

[Some person]

not posting in usual posting style on purpose and i'll be real vague

but my 2 'sid from my own exp is that some of us rp hatred in ways that you never see til the hired assassins got the blade in your chest

been there done that and i gotta say from what it looks like in my rp exp in the game so far it isn't that unusual

Alright, admittedly I haven't read through the whole thread, but I'm not really replying to anything in particular. I wish I had been as bit more hateful with some previous characters, who really should've. I had a Bynner who was deathly... I guess you could call it afraid... of the Northlands, but I didn't lay the hate (There's my homie slang for ya) on any Northies. And there's lots of people I would've liked to call beggars, whores, filthy shit-bags etc. Damn it would've been fun, and makes me want to play in the Byn again. Just because that kinda stuff is (or should be) expected from them.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I see points from both sides of view here. I've played an open magicker and -most- PCs were nice to him, maybe out of fear or whatever...who knows.

I've been in a certain clan for some time now and I find plenty of open conflict there, its a nice change. Elves and humans, males and females, dwarves and...about everyone. It's really pretty cool to see it within the clan but I wish there was more of it in the general populace.

As I said a long time ago, the Byn isnt just for newbies and it's actually been my best clan experiance with a surprising number of good (in my eyes) RPers. Perhaps more so then other 'richer' clans I've been with.

I've been templar, noble, begger, magicker and everything in between...the Byn is awesome and has something to offer for just about everyone.  I didnt mean this to turn into some advertisment but the topic of conflict really gets me thinking of how good I have it right now. I love my role and love my clan...if you are looking for conflict, come on over

Oh, I know the Byn is awesome, my bynner was like my eigth character ;->

[COGATO]

Yea the Byn is great. My most succsessful (longest living) and probably most fun character was one that was in the Byn. I can honestly say I learned the most and had the most fun while in the Byn.

[Disgruntled Northerner]

There is a major lack of hatred in the Northlands. I'm not talking about your "let's go lynch him, he's from the south!" sort of stuff, but overt shunning and unhappiness at any southern presence. It's actually pretty disheartening, though I've seen a few attempts at it. I would think, for the most part, while it would be more subtle hatred than in the south, it would still be there.

Especially disheartening is when people who play northerners, icly (for the most part) can't even come up with a reason to hate southerners! I mean, come on! The war wasn't that long ago!

For those who can't manufacture their own reasons to despise the south, here are a few:

About a little over a decade ago, they were raping, killing, torturing and murdering members of your family - How do you think Allanak got in control, and what do you think they did during the war? War is all about rape, killing, torture and murder. Almost every single northerner should have had someone who at least knows someone who's relative was hurt in some way by the war. From rebels to the common populace, the northern nobles weren't the only ones to suffer. Many commoners who expressed loyalties to the north were put to the sword. Many commoners died during the north fighting for the land. They managed to overthrow the scum that occupied it and ousted it. Chances are, you've lost a few relatives to southern-born scum of whatever flavor, be it the Byn, the Nakki Militia, templars or southern malcontents that settled in the north to suck its resources dry. And if someone you know wasn't hurt by them, then they were probably cheated by them.

They are a bunch of blood-spilling barbarians whose culture consists of public torture and execution. The horror stories abount. From prisoners thrown to animals to be ripped apart in front of slavering crowds, to bodies strewn about the streets and entrails decorating the walls. Oh sure, the people who have visited this decrepit city called Allanak might say it's not so bad, but -you- know that they have more crime (that they're bringing up north), and -you- know that at least your criminals aren't put on display in pieces to make your city ugly and upset the children.

The nobles who provide a lot of jobs were hunted and killed, like animals. Here are the people who provide the money, and the employment for hundreds of people and fund city projects that help put food on your family's table. Some of your relatives probably died alongside them, at least the ones that worked for them when the Nakki's came. These people now, who provide a lot of income for the poor, who sponsor the flourishing beauty and help fuel trade. It wasn't the Rebels who hid them, it was commoners who lived in the city and gave up their lives. Now the Nakkis filter in and you let them pose a threat to their well-being? Sure that southerner might look harmless... but you know he -might- be an assassin, just waiting for that right moment to butcher your patron.

Respect! - Gosh darnit! This is your land, and the southerners just come up and dance across it like they still own the place. They smirk and sneer at you, don't listen to you, and generally make themselves a nuisance. They dirty up the streets and taverns like it was.. well.. like it was Allanak or something! Don't they have any respect for the Northerners? No, because they're barbarians, of course! They're lowly, snivelling usurpers, every last doggone one of them, dammit, and they act like -they're- superior.

Anyways, there's lots of reasons to hate the Nakkis. You the player might be enlightened, but your pc probably isn't, and they probably have heard a lot, growing up, about how horrible it was when the Nakkis took over.

Anyways, I agree. Would be nice to see a little less friendly faces around the North.

[Anonymous]

Maybe I'm too careful but I don't regularly tip my hand to my hatred.  I can tell you this, I'm always looking for opportunities to screw the Nak'ers.  On several occasions I have used my guile to pit them against each other by spreading rumors.  This led to them practically fighting each other and it was lots of fun to watch.  So, the general undermining is the game I play.  Now, if I stumbled upon one of them, in a secluded area, on the edge of death, I wouldn't hesitate to help them along.  But the overt hatred seems to me a bad policy given my current characters profession, alliances etc.

You know something else, most Southerners I run into always denounce Allanak when I question them.  Maybe they do it for their own self-preservation and that makes sense.  It's just that I've never run into one that says, yea the South rules!

[crymerci]

I agree--just because you don't see the hatred doesn't mean there's not an assassin waiting in a back alley to stab you, or a spy infiltrating your ranks, or...who knows what else?

[Hoodwink]

I think in a world  based on betrayal and corruption, it's best not to let people know you hate them, but that doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of hatred.

Elves typically view all outsiders with contempt, but they wouldn't ever sell their wonderful goods (at outrageous prices!) if their hatred was written all over their face.  What's more, what fun would the game be if I couldn't interact with most other characters besides either trying to kill them or being rude to them all the time?  I'd rather put a nice smile on may face and let them think I like them, when in fact I mean to plant a knife in their ribs when they least expect it.

However, I think there is a great deal of "niceness" going on that might not necessarily be present in such a world.  There is a wonderful story on this website I read: http://www.armageddon.org/original/hunter.html

I really liked how when the character's mate was killed in battle she simply took his spear and left without looking back, no concern for burial rites what so ever.  It's a kill or be killed world, and friendships are based on what you can do for the other person, not so we can hold hands and live happily ever after  :twisted:

[Typo]

The following post will contain several vague generalzations, which naturally increase the chance of an illogical statement, but I will try to keep it all in bounds:

Okay, lets say that most of the PCs use subtely and guile to further their hatred of their object of ire. That is a fine way to play hatred...as long as that way is IC for your character. Grizzled Bynner who had friends that died in the numerous raids against the north might decide he would like to plant his fist in the scummy northerner rather than paying someone else to do his dirty work for him. Punky merchant might not feel comfortable picking a fight with an elf who looks like the skinny who jacked him for a chest-load of sids, he'd use his other chest to buy a silt-clean assassin to slice some veins.

Maybe what I am looking for is more tension, more intensity to the delicate siuation that Zalanthas is in. True, that this is a game of survival, and sometimes that means you have to lick hole...but, your PC is competing with every other PC/NPC/VNPC for the limited resources found on Zals. It should rub some people a little raw when a southie comes into their bar to drink up their ale. What, weren't satisfied with raping our land, now you have to drink our beer?!?

I think the Disgruntled Northerner had an excellent post, and anyone can expand along those lines to get ideas for tensions between races, sexes, ect.

That's about it, I'm tired again, so this post will probably look like crap in the morning.