Hatred....

[Smoky]

.... Something there's too little of.

One thing that turns me off from the game is seeing people work together peacefully to get something done.  In a world like Zalanthas most people would only care for themselves or their kin, lately I've seen things that -I- think would, and should never happen.

An example of this would be northerners and southerners.   It's a feud that goes way back, but I still see people from different sides who know nothing of each other getting along.  In my mind, I can see a northerner sitting in the gaj drinking an ale when four or five southerners(drunk or not) approach him and start a fight.  This goes both ways.

I currently play a character in Allanak that's from the north, and I'm disgusted at how little hatred is shown for my character.

A little reminder to all of you slack-ass roleplayers out there,  This is not a normal RPG where you band together and gain experience.  This is a game of kill or be killed, just like the banner ad for arm says "Murder, corruption, betrayal".

And yes, I did call you all slack-ass roleplayers to get you pissed off, maybe that'll help you hate.

Peace out-side,
Smoky

[Kronus]

Allanaki citizens are duplicitous, greedy and best of all, subtle (despite what you northies like to say!). For all you know, they're just smiling at you while you're in the room, and as soon as you leave they get to talking about who gets the honor of sticking a knife in your jugular.

[Anonymous]

This isn't a game of kill or be killed.

Its a game of survival.  Sometimes your survival is best benefited by not killing someone.

That being said, it would be nice if there were more people who were overt about their feelings.

I do also find it funny that an Allanaki elf would get more derision and hatred sent his way than a northerner who moved to Allanak.  That's my opinion.

Personally, I can understand some people wanting to try to be nice to a PC to use them, but I also wish there were more gangs of racist pigs.

[Typo]

Smoky, I hear you 100%. It is especially irritating to be playing someone who should be the object of derision, only to have other PCs treat 'em like a long lost friend. UGH! There have been so many times that I justed wanted to get hated on, to make this MUD seem more like a real world than a collection of people who just wanna sit around circle jerkin each other about how great life is.

In Zalanthas, someone is always shitting on someone else. Nobles shit on the life of the commoner, Templars shit on the life of the commoner, Militia and Soldiers shit on the life of the commoner. So who does the commoner shit on? Anyone who is not a noble, templar, militia, or soldier, and different enough that a clear distinction can be drawn between the two; whether that distinction be geographical, racial, or gender-based.

Conflict breeds good RP like my toes breed fungus. Hate is a simple rp-tool that noobs can grasp and vets can wield like a scalpel. Twinkie-fluff PCs are probably not piss-poor rpers, they just lack the confidence to stand up in a bar and say, "Northies tongue-bathe kankholes!" And few people have the huevos grande enough to play the guy everyone hates.

Simple solution, the rpers out there with the cojones stand up and start spitting the hate, after a while, others will start to follow. In a few months, maybe elves and half-elves will stay out of the bar dominated by drunken mercenaries, or at least go in large groups.

The most memorable RL experiences are the ones where shitty stuff happened, so lets get some shit on Zalanthas!

[Lazloth]

There have been so many times that I justed wanted to get hated on, to make this MUD seem more like a real world than a collection of people who just wanna sit around circle jerkin each other about how great life is.

Hey guys, it is a two-step tango.  You can initiate this air with a subtle insult, sneer, refusal for that 8 sid ale, or whatever .. there are ways to stir the environment without being overt or necessarily endangering your welfare.

It's easy to think or post "Damn, I wish you people would do..."; it's more effective, in my experience, acting in-character and waiting on reactionary emulation.

[X-D]

Hhhhmmm, I have to think that you are all talking about human chars:)

Myself, I never play em but My chars hate you all just the same north south any race but his own, But that does not mean your char will ever know it, survival is paramount so it may not be in his best interest to be overt on his fealings, But don't bet he is gonna run in and help ya against that insane elf either:)

So many ways to go about hating.....

[Midland]

First off, who are you to judge those pcs? Maybe a parent of the pc that was nice to you was a half-breed? Maybe the guy that just said excuse me and smiled was thinking NASTY thoughts on you but didnt know anyone in the tavern or street that would back him up.

Thats the problem with making yourself the "roleplay" police, YOU DONT KNOW the motivation, thoughts, or actions of the other pcs. Whether they are spiced up, drunk, depressed or just being two-faced. If you want to be hated without making actions to make you hated _openly_, (keyword = openly) then next time make a pc to heckle the crap out of those you feel are treated too "nicely".

If you feel someone is acting oocly and being "bad" roleplayers then log it and write the account. That way the imms can check into it, discuss with the player to see if IC situations in the time they have played that pc might have changed their opinions, made them rethink the ideals they started with, etc. Because just like in RL the things going on around your pc will change that pc and just like in RL, you dont know why one person acted a certain way unless you ask.

If someone is treating you too nicely, then take advantage of them and screw them over. Look suspiciously at them and ask if they are a boy bugger and just trying to get you alone in an alley to have at it. Tell them you are Tek's bastard son and they should bow down and worship you. But roleplay is a multifaceted thing. It isnt black and white just because it's typed.

[Anonymous]

First off, who are you to judge those pcs? Maybe a parent of the pc that was nice to you was a half-breed?

But see, if *EVERYONE* had a magicker half-elf Allanaki uncle that was married to a Psi woman from the north who was saved from raiders by a friendly tribe of elves and dwarves working in unison....then the exception becomes the norm.

I've played plenty of open magickers and I *worked* to make people feel uncomfortable around me and still had little or no response.  I made scenes and then wrote about it on the rumor boards.  And instead I ended up working for two noble houses.  *Boggle.*

Seriously, the people who won't be racist ignoramuses should be the very rare exception.

That being said, I don't think that everyone should be expected to grab their pitchforks and light a cross everytime they see someone different....But that sort of reaction should be more prevalent than being their sweet, gentle, understanding and Westernized friend.

[Typo]

Ahh, that's what I love about the GDB, the immediate hyperbolists who leap out of the shadows to flout their esteemed values from their soapbox...whether or not anyone is truly listening...


In Response to Midland----

You're right, I don't know the specifics, but I think I would not be wrong in making the generalized statements I made in my earlier posts. If you disagree, then maybe you should go check up on some of the documentation.

You're right again, in that I am not the "roleplay police", but I don't need a RP badge to make criticisms about how other people play their characters. When I first started playing, I was guilty of every noob flaw in the book...it was the posts on the GDB that brought to light my weaknesses and where I needed to improve. If everyone felt the way you felt, I would still be orgy stealing from VNPCs until an imm told me to stop

And, in case you can't see the thread woven throughout this post, You're right a third time. I could email the account, but then others might not benefit from the experience. No one wants to be told by an Imm, "You're roleplay sucks, fix it." Its a lot more constructive for everyone involved to post targeting the playerbase at large, rather than a player feeling like he is the only one guilty of X offense.

But being right doesn't make you right. The tense race relations of ARM is one of the selling points of the MUD, and it isn't until we start discussing it as a playerbase that we can improve. Brushing it under the carpet and hoping that the other person is a really good RPer, but just hasn't proven it yet, is a twinkie belief.

Good Rpers are born noobs, they've just learned to take criticism in a constructive way.

[Anonymous]

Just to add to Typo's point about whether or not discussing this on the GDB is valuable.

When I first started playing I thought it was a sign of being a mature, enlightened PC to have respect and love for all elves, half-elves, magickers, etc.

If people hadn't brought up posts like this I never would have learned that its actually the opposite.

While I don't necessarily agree with calling everyone slack-ass RPer's, I think the topic is a good one.

[Midland]

Brushing it under the carpet and hoping that the other person is a really good RPer, but just hasn't proven it yet, is a twinkie belief.

Let's address Typo here :

I wasnt responding to your post, unless you changed to a different posting name to remain anonymous in some way. I never implied things should be brushed under the carpet and for everyone to "hope" the other person is a really good RPer. To throw the "twinkie belief" part in sort of made where you were going with your post null and void because it reads as you putting out an insult in what you felt was a semi-polite way after starting the post in the same manner.

In response to Christopher:

I agree, it is a good topic. The way is was put in the beginning, was not. This topic has come up time and time again. I am sure I will see it in future years to come also.

My whole post was that just because someone thinks the other isnt rp'ng as they should, doesnt mean that assumption is correct. I have had people that flat out thought a past pc of mine was a flat out total twink, hated me as the player of that pc, etc, until they found out over the years of what went on behind the scenes and roleplayed with me in other situations.  So yes, I am right in saying that some assumption that the player behind the pc is playing them correctly, should be left to the imms to decide. Yes it feels crappy to get a negative note from an imm if they ARENT but that's life.

Perhaps instead of whining about everyone being so nice instead of playing bad, include the vpcs that run around in torturing your pc or the others. I have heard many complain about templars coming in and singling out pcs and not the npcs/vpcs. That is the same in this instance also. Instead of singling out the pcs being nice why not rp some vpcs harassing you? I have done that when my elf was trying to get adopted into another tribe. I knew the pcs probably wouldnt pick on my elf, so I made the vpcs do it and the other players picked up on it a bit.

[Typo]

Quick ammendum:

When I wrote of a  Twinkie belief, I was refering to a similar case found in law, the "twinkie defense", which is an excuse that sounds solid on the surface, but is really nothing but sugar and air.

I did not mean twinkie as in one who abuses code hoops for their own metagaming experience.

Easy mistake to confuse the two, and partly my fault, I should have explained it better. Hope my previous post now becomes a valid query into the playerbase of this MUD.

[creeper386]

Acctually, I'm going to have to say, Midland is crazy.

There is just not enough hatred no matter HOW you look at it, and even playing characters that go out of their way to try and strike up racism and the like, you don't see much of it.

I don't see it as the DUTY to those people that think too many people are being nice is to try and make them play different. I think it's there choice. But it's like having a RP MUD without interaction... You certainly loose something there. You have to have the hate RP, in Zalanthas it's a major part of the world.

SURE there may be people going about being nice just to be nice, but when EVERY body, doesn't mind elves and doesn't mind magickers and doesn't mind dwarves, it gets alittle crazy. The closest thing to hate RP have I seen is friendly insulting, and it's SICKENING.


Creeper

[Midland]

Acctually, I'm going to have to say, Midland is crazy.

Thanks

Actually, Midland rather see people DO something about things than whine about them. Not everyone is nice and friendly with magickers, elves etc. But I am dropping out of this discussion due to being home sick today and my posts are sucking since I cant string my thoughts in a coherent way to get through.

[Rindan]

I tend to agree that the world could use a little more fire under its ass.  I have played the opposite of the Northerner in the South, namely that of a Southerner in the North.  I too ran into the fact that I was treated pretty evenly.  My character was fairly blunt about being an Allanaki too.  He has tattoos from Allanak and was decked out in the latest and greatest Allanaki armor.  You couldn't really mistake him, and he wasn't exactly the strong silent type.  He was the loud and willing to butt heads type.  I generally found that unless I stood up and screamed 'Glory to the One and Only God King Tektolnes!' people were fairly tolerant.  That said, there were exceptions to the rule.  Three players in particular did a good job reminding me that eyes in the back of my head were not a completely unfavorable thing.  It just wasn't the norm.

I would think that as bad as Northerners might be to the Southern folk, it should be even worse in the reverse.  Allanak suffered an absolutely humiliating[/b] defeat.  In fact, they suffered more then one defeat.  Not only did they lose the North, they lost Luir's, holdings in the west, had a couple acts of terrorism inflicted upon them, and to add insult to injury, the North is having a cultural explosion to dwarf the Allanak.  Allanak is hurting and the average person should be down right pissed about way things are going.

That said, I think the bigger issue is that very few people play a character that is assimilated normally into society.  A character that considers nobility better humans and are thankful to be saved from the wastes by the God King with his infinite power is a relatively rare thing in Allanak.  Most people play having a reason to be jaded against Allanaki society and in general are always one step away from playing rebels or just flat out indifferent.  I think a few more people readily embracing the Allanaki stereotype types could provide some pleasant conflict in the game.

As someone who has in the past played a very stereotypical Allanaki, don't discount playing a stereotype as being boring.  On the contrary, I found the experience to be very pleasant.  Once you play with a strong Allanaki mind set you find that there are plenty of people to clash with because in truth the stereotype is far more rare then the exception.

[Some person]

not posting in usual posting style on purpose and i'll be real vague

but my 2 'sid from my own exp is that some of us rp hatred in ways that you never see til the hired assassins got the blade in your chest

been there done that and i gotta say from what it looks like in my rp exp in the game so far it isn't that unusual

Alright, admittedly I haven't read through the whole thread, but I'm not really replying to anything in particular. I wish I had been as bit more hateful with some previous characters, who really should've. I had a Bynner who was deathly... I guess you could call it afraid... of the Northlands, but I didn't lay the hate (There's my homie slang for ya) on any Northies. And there's lots of people I would've liked to call beggars, whores, filthy shit-bags etc. Damn it would've been fun, and makes me want to play in the Byn again. Just because that kinda stuff is (or should be) expected from them.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I see points from both sides of view here. I've played an open magicker and -most- PCs were nice to him, maybe out of fear or whatever...who knows.

I've been in a certain clan for some time now and I find plenty of open conflict there, its a nice change. Elves and humans, males and females, dwarves and...about everyone. It's really pretty cool to see it within the clan but I wish there was more of it in the general populace.

As I said a long time ago, the Byn isnt just for newbies and it's actually been my best clan experiance with a surprising number of good (in my eyes) RPers. Perhaps more so then other 'richer' clans I've been with.

I've been templar, noble, begger, magicker and everything in between...the Byn is awesome and has something to offer for just about everyone.  I didnt mean this to turn into some advertisment but the topic of conflict really gets me thinking of how good I have it right now. I love my role and love my clan...if you are looking for conflict, come on over

Oh, I know the Byn is awesome, my bynner was like my eigth character ;->

[COGATO]

Yea the Byn is great. My most succsessful (longest living) and probably most fun character was one that was in the Byn. I can honestly say I learned the most and had the most fun while in the Byn.

[Disgruntled Northerner]

There is a major lack of hatred in the Northlands. I'm not talking about your "let's go lynch him, he's from the south!" sort of stuff, but overt shunning and unhappiness at any southern presence. It's actually pretty disheartening, though I've seen a few attempts at it. I would think, for the most part, while it would be more subtle hatred than in the south, it would still be there.

Especially disheartening is when people who play northerners, icly (for the most part) can't even come up with a reason to hate southerners! I mean, come on! The war wasn't that long ago!

For those who can't manufacture their own reasons to despise the south, here are a few:

About a little over a decade ago, they were raping, killing, torturing and murdering members of your family - How do you think Allanak got in control, and what do you think they did during the war? War is all about rape, killing, torture and murder. Almost every single northerner should have had someone who at least knows someone who's relative was hurt in some way by the war. From rebels to the common populace, the northern nobles weren't the only ones to suffer. Many commoners who expressed loyalties to the north were put to the sword. Many commoners died during the north fighting for the land. They managed to overthrow the scum that occupied it and ousted it. Chances are, you've lost a few relatives to southern-born scum of whatever flavor, be it the Byn, the Nakki Militia, templars or southern malcontents that settled in the north to suck its resources dry. And if someone you know wasn't hurt by them, then they were probably cheated by them.

They are a bunch of blood-spilling barbarians whose culture consists of public torture and execution. The horror stories abount. From prisoners thrown to animals to be ripped apart in front of slavering crowds, to bodies strewn about the streets and entrails decorating the walls. Oh sure, the people who have visited this decrepit city called Allanak might say it's not so bad, but -you- know that they have more crime (that they're bringing up north), and -you- know that at least your criminals aren't put on display in pieces to make your city ugly and upset the children.

The nobles who provide a lot of jobs were hunted and killed, like animals. Here are the people who provide the money, and the employment for hundreds of people and fund city projects that help put food on your family's table. Some of your relatives probably died alongside them, at least the ones that worked for them when the Nakki's came. These people now, who provide a lot of income for the poor, who sponsor the flourishing beauty and help fuel trade. It wasn't the Rebels who hid them, it was commoners who lived in the city and gave up their lives. Now the Nakkis filter in and you let them pose a threat to their well-being? Sure that southerner might look harmless... but you know he -might- be an assassin, just waiting for that right moment to butcher your patron.

Respect! - Gosh darnit! This is your land, and the southerners just come up and dance across it like they still own the place. They smirk and sneer at you, don't listen to you, and generally make themselves a nuisance. They dirty up the streets and taverns like it was.. well.. like it was Allanak or something! Don't they have any respect for the Northerners? No, because they're barbarians, of course! They're lowly, snivelling usurpers, every last doggone one of them, dammit, and they act like -they're- superior.

Anyways, there's lots of reasons to hate the Nakkis. You the player might be enlightened, but your pc probably isn't, and they probably have heard a lot, growing up, about how horrible it was when the Nakkis took over.

Anyways, I agree. Would be nice to see a little less friendly faces around the North.

[Anonymous]

Maybe I'm too careful but I don't regularly tip my hand to my hatred.  I can tell you this, I'm always looking for opportunities to screw the Nak'ers.  On several occasions I have used my guile to pit them against each other by spreading rumors.  This led to them practically fighting each other and it was lots of fun to watch.  So, the general undermining is the game I play.  Now, if I stumbled upon one of them, in a secluded area, on the edge of death, I wouldn't hesitate to help them along.  But the overt hatred seems to me a bad policy given my current characters profession, alliances etc.

You know something else, most Southerners I run into always denounce Allanak when I question them.  Maybe they do it for their own self-preservation and that makes sense.  It's just that I've never run into one that says, yea the South rules!

[crymerci]

I agree--just because you don't see the hatred doesn't mean there's not an assassin waiting in a back alley to stab you, or a spy infiltrating your ranks, or...who knows what else?

[Hoodwink]

I think in a world  based on betrayal and corruption, it's best not to let people know you hate them, but that doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of hatred.

Elves typically view all outsiders with contempt, but they wouldn't ever sell their wonderful goods (at outrageous prices!) if their hatred was written all over their face.  What's more, what fun would the game be if I couldn't interact with most other characters besides either trying to kill them or being rude to them all the time?  I'd rather put a nice smile on may face and let them think I like them, when in fact I mean to plant a knife in their ribs when they least expect it.

However, I think there is a great deal of "niceness" going on that might not necessarily be present in such a world.  There is a wonderful story on this website I read: http://www.armageddon.org/original/hunter.html

I really liked how when the character's mate was killed in battle she simply took his spear and left without looking back, no concern for burial rites what so ever.  It's a kill or be killed world, and friendships are based on what you can do for the other person, not so we can hold hands and live happily ever after  :twisted:

[Typo]

The following post will contain several vague generalzations, which naturally increase the chance of an illogical statement, but I will try to keep it all in bounds:

Okay, lets say that most of the PCs use subtely and guile to further their hatred of their object of ire. That is a fine way to play hatred...as long as that way is IC for your character. Grizzled Bynner who had friends that died in the numerous raids against the north might decide he would like to plant his fist in the scummy northerner rather than paying someone else to do his dirty work for him. Punky merchant might not feel comfortable picking a fight with an elf who looks like the skinny who jacked him for a chest-load of sids, he'd use his other chest to buy a silt-clean assassin to slice some veins.

Maybe what I am looking for is more tension, more intensity to the delicate siuation that Zalanthas is in. True, that this is a game of survival, and sometimes that means you have to lick hole...but, your PC is competing with every other PC/NPC/VNPC for the limited resources found on Zals. It should rub some people a little raw when a southie comes into their bar to drink up their ale. What, weren't satisfied with raping our land, now you have to drink our beer?!?

I think the Disgruntled Northerner had an excellent post, and anyone can expand along those lines to get ideas for tensions between races, sexes, ect.

That's about it, I'm tired again, so this post will probably look like crap in the morning.

[Anonymous]

I think in a world  based on betrayal and corruption, it's best not to let people know you hate them, but that doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of hatred.

I agree.  But its not just a world based on betrayal and corruption.  Its also based on ignorance, racism and a class system which leaves the vast majority without a pot to piss in.

Just like depressed economies in the south give rise to hate groups, and economic hardship in the middle east lends fuel to the religious fire in that region....so would a *large* contingent of commoners be looking for someone to take their frustrations out on.

I don't demand or expect everyone to play dumb Johnny Allanaki.  I know I haven't done it near as much as I should.

But give it a try.  Characters who are overt in their beliefs, morals, actions and intentions are refreshlingly free to do anything in a Tyler Durden sort of way.

[Unclean]

I'll have you know my character hates about everyone and gets into the shit with about everyone. Especially you filthy southerners. And I know a lot of other Pc's who feel the same in -private-, don't say anything in public but wait to catch the -enemy- somewhere where they won't get arrested for bashing their heads in. Just because you don't see it doesnt mean we aren't slavering to stain the sands with your stinking blood.

[Anonymous]

Just because you don't see it doesnt mean we aren't slavering to stain the sands with your stinking blood.

I don't believe in forcing anyone to play a certain way, however....

If *everyone* plots in secret, and *everyone* had a half-elven psionicist uncle who was saved from certain death by a mul defiler and a elven ranger who were lead there by an elementalist....

Then nobody is playing the norm.

Again, I'd encourage people to play the occasional PC that is incapable of hiding their feelings or plotting beyond waiting for the damn stinking elf to turn his head.

My last PC got in quite a few fights and tried starting a lot more.  I don't have anything against people who don't want to play overtly racist PCs...but it was a lot of fun being the total ass.  Didn't seem like much of a reach either...

Stereotypes can be fun too.

[growingall]

I once played an elf warrior that really did think humans were inferior..

whisper human Scream for me roundear.

:swings his two swords in wild arcs, splattering he humans blood on the walls of the narrow alley.

:licks his knife with some glee.

think I wonder how a loincloth of human skin would look like?

Curiously I don't think I got any karma points for that one..  :roll:

[Armaddict]

Quite frankly, I'm getting a little sick of everyone saying 'I'm the subtle type'.  Why is it -everyone- is so damn subtle?  Everyone is -so- subtle, that they never actually get any hating acts accomplished.  They sit at their barstool, look at the dude a minute, do a few thinks of "Oh, how I'd like to blah blah blah, but I'll wait to blah blah blah, because I'm a genius."

Why is it there are no groups of three or four commoners who stand up from their table to approach that guy in the bar and say, 'We don't like you here.  You should leave."

I know that I led such a small group, once before...and it turned out excellent.  The victim can either be a jerk, and ignore you knowing that they're protected by crimcode (Even though I'm sure some 'nakki soldiers would turn their head from a known northerner getting beat by a group of noble house guards), or they can actually take into account that they've got a group of angry, undisciplined assholes threatening to take their ass outside and slit their throat.

Ah...that's right.  They don't have to worry.  Everyone is too subtle to be dangerous.

[Bushranger]

You may be right, the world may need more hatred. Then again, if I am in the Gaj and I punch someone I don't like I'm going to get arrested and possibly killed by 10000000 half-giant guards, my character knows this IC and I know it OOC. Then again, if I start giving insults the so-called victem will usually insult you back and dare you to hit him, knowing as you do you will get arrested and/or killed for it. Thus, nothing much happens except one of you looks like a pansy and, in my opinion, it doesn't make very interesting RP.

I prefer just to ignore those who I don't like, talk grudgingly with those I don't know but might be ok and make racial/geographical jokes in private with my friends.

Not everyone is a Nazi, commiting hate crimes left and right.

Besides, if everyone knows I hate them what is to stop them from killing my 3 hour characters who haven't got a group of friends yet? Not everyone has 50 friends ready to back them up if they get into trouble.

[aeshyw]

Don't discount cowardice.  It is a perfectly valid motive for one's actions and one that would help most people to survive.  

Personally, my PC rarely shows her disdain, racism or hatred of people from other places to them, for fear they might act against her.  But she has no qualms about quietly arranging their violent, horrible and brutal demise to happen later.

[Quirk]

A lot of this has to do with current code limitations as well as general RP level. If a drunken Bynner in the Gaj swings a punch at a Northern elf, nobody should care. The crimcode simply shouldn't kick in. Even if the Bynner picks up a makeshift weapon and starts knocking the elf round - who cares? It's a bar populated largely by Bynners and as long as nobody important is being picked on, the militia should look the other way. Similarly, if you're RPing the elf or Northerner, you should be afraid to give lip back to the drunken Bynner because ICly he and the crowd of brown abas at the back of the room could beat you to a pulp and no-one would care. Similarly, other Southerners and non-elves ought to back up one of their own in putting the outcast back in their place.

And, to comment on aeshyw's remark - and aeshyw's not the first to say something like it, I'm only mentioning it because I've seen it too often - there is something badly wrong with your RP if you arrange for someone to be killed just because they're an outcast while not showing it to their face. There is a not even slightly thin line between reinforcing social status by putting inferiors down (or even, at a stretch, beating that uppity elf up to teach him he can't insult a Bynner in a Byn bar) and calm, cold-blooded murder of those of another race or culture. If you've got a valid reason to have someone assassinated good for you - but I can't imagine you'd let them off being assassinated simply because they're fully human and come from your hometown. If you've not, what you're doing is as crude in RP terms as going into the 'Rinth to hunt elves. If you're scared to tell someone how much you despise them to their face, you can still show how you really feel by talking behind their back. And if they have outcast status you can torment them safely when you deem you have enough friends nearby. Planning for their murder is an entirely different notion.

Quirk

[aeshyw]

Quirk,

I could not agree with you more.  However, say for instance...you're a krathi desert elf with 'I love Tuluk' tattooed on your forehead and you sit next to me at the Bard's Barrel.  Chances are...I see you as a threat and a chance to get back at naughty ole Muk in my own small way.

Normally, I think that we're a lot better off with more public floggings, maimings and flat out beat downs then random killings. I see nothing wrong with "Mr. PrissyMerchant smiles politely to the halfbreed burping on his infant son's head and contacts his guardsmen..telling them to give the creature a beating he won't soon forget and tell him not to show his face here again".

I should also add, that this same character who does not usually dare to confront someone face to face commonly refers to other races in casual conversation with slurs without even thinking twice, even if there are others about.  There's a wide gap between inviting disaster and showing disdain, imho.  Also...if I have someone beat down..they are damn well going to know why.  Otherwise, there's no point. :twisted:

[Bestatte]

Quirk,

I could not agree with you more.  However, say for instance...you're a krathi desert elf with 'I love Tuluk' tattooed on your forehead and you sit next to me at the Bard's Barrel.  Chances are...I see you as a threat and a chance to get back at naughty ole Muk in my own small way.

Normally, I think that we're a lot better off with more public floggings, maimings and flat out beat downs then random killings. I see nothing wrong with "Mr. PrissyMerchant smiles politely to the halfbreed burping on his infant son's head and contacts his guardsmen..telling them to give the creature a beating he won't soon forget and tell him not to show his face here again".

Heh. If he's got an "I love Tuluk" tattoo on his forehead, he's probably not wearing a gem, so chances are unless YOU are also a magicker, you wouldn't know he was one too. Plus unless you're a noble, merchant family, or templar, you can't read that tattoo.

But yeah like you said aeshyw - give the boy a beating. But killing him just because he's different isn't the place of the general public, not even important people in the general public. Unless you can verify that he's a threat to your person or your employer or your house, arranging for his death should get YOU in trouble from the powers that be ICly. If you can verify that yeah - this desert elf krathi with the northern tattoo is plotting your noble boss's demise, then go for it. But if you can't verify it, then I'd say you're asking for a headache - and whoever pays you should make sure that headache lasts a good long while.

[Quirk]

I'd also like to add that some people who choose to play half-breeds, or city elves, or 'gemmers or whatever should get rid of their pride. Since your character was knee-high to a jozhal, he or she has almost certainly been cursed, insulted, spat on, jeered at and discriminated against. Likely that character's endured a beating or two as a child; children are cruel, and crueler still when they know they can get away with it. If Miss Prissy Merchant murmurs something mildly derogatory about you in the midst of a crowded bar - lap it up! Even if your city elf considers himself or herself above the stupid roundears, chances are they've put up with so much already in life that an insult or even a beating aren't going to have them breathing blood and thunder and hot on the revenge trail. Sure, if the character who's insulted you ends up someday in your power, they'll suffer, but going out of your way to take vengeance isn't really going to be IC for most people, and plotting to kill them for calling you what every child on the block called you as you were growing up is just silly. A little more thick skin would be just dandy.

Back on the other side again, if a big bluff Northern veteran starts loudly making fun of Tek in the middle of a 'Nak bar, and the thought of facing him alone scares your character, get a group together and confront him at their head. Heck, if no PCs are around, I'm sure many imms would be sympathetic if you wished up for the kind of response a Southern crowd would give to such remarks.

Gemmers are subtly different. They are protected by law, and are scary people to boot. Politeness in their presence is entirely sensible. That doesn't mean you can't mutter derisive comments to your friends across the table as you see them enter. Again, though, hiring a contract killer to take them out because they're a gemmer isn't really a valid response to the situation.

There should be no real reason in game for someone to believe that one of their inferiors is going to hurt them because they bore the brunt of a few racial slurs or were discriminated against. It should (and I believe generally does) take quite a lot of pushing before an elf or half-breed snaps and decides to do something about their tormentors. Additionally, characters ought not to be too cowardly when all the odds are on their side and their society supports them.

Quirk

[aeshyw]

Quirk,

As a rule, yes.  However..characters should have flaws.  They should sometimes be cowards, sometimes be idiots who fluster at every insult and sometimes be ready to kill someone for what others might not consider a good reason at all. They are characters with their own quirks and issues and its that constant not knowing how someone will react that is part of what makes Armageddon so interesting and dangerous.

I would never tell someone that playing a coward or a fearless buffoon is bad RP.  I would tell someone that playing a coward or a fearless buffoon and expecting no consequences to come from their actions is silly.

[crymerci]

However, say for instance...you're a krathi desert elf with 'I love Tuluk' tattooed on your forehead and you sit next to me at the Bard's Barrel.  Chances are...I see you as a threat and a chance to get back at naughty ole Muk in my own small way.

But the Barrel is owned by a northerner, and frequented by many elves and magickers.  I don't see how that one person, even with all those traits combined, is a threat just by existing.  To paraphrase Bestatte, "What's s/he done to you?"  If your character really is genocidal, cool.  But the reason that these types of people survive in the world is that there's just too many of them to give any single one of them more than a bit of harassment here and there.

[Quirk]

As a rule, yes.  However..characters should have flaws.  They should sometimes be cowards, sometimes be idiots who fluster at every insult and sometimes be ready to kill someone for what others might not consider a good reason at all.

...

I would tell someone that playing a coward or a fearless buffoon and expecting no consequences to come from their actions is silly.

The current problem, however, is that too many people play either cowards or fearless fools, and hence the consequences are slow in coming. A couple of cowards in a non-cowardly population is fine, but when most of the PC inhabitants of a city are openly pleasant to everyone for fear of reprisals it skews the atmosphere of the area away from what it is in theory meant to be. I think too many people avoid confrontation for their characters sakes OOCly when they shouldn't. I'm not talking here of the ingratiating half-elf who has every reason not to worsen his or her poor lot in life, I'm talking about the well-fed guard in a Noble House, or the comfortably off merchant who's on almost friendly terms with a templar, an established and respected citizen with no more reason to fear elven vengeance for their slurs than they'd fear a slave uprising if they beat a slave they owned for doing something wrong. That's not to say that such a merchant shouldn't be business-like and even polite when selling goods to someone they dislike, but that ragged elf who doesn't look like he has the sid to be a customer can be put in his place without a second thought.

I don't see too many racial minority hotheads, but they can also lead to undesirable RP patterns forming. Even if people aren't in danger from the newbie hothead half-elf warrior, they become more cautious about insulting half-elves because the last one blew up in their face and attacked them - this should be rare, it should be very very rare - and the knock-on effect is that more open conflict is lost from the game because people worry that other members of the despised minorities will react the same way. Even if the hot-head dies, their atypical behaviour can send ripples of caution through the RP of a whole region. The fewer of them, the better.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Quirk brought up something that gives me an idea...can the crimcode be tweaked to ignore offenses against non-citizens?

[Stroker]

No.

The reasoning behind you getting wanted is that someone sees you doing something illegal. Now how could that person decipher the fact that the person you are illegally abusing is a non-citizen?

[Stroker]

Unless that person is an uber-pooper mindmender, in that case BURN THE HERETIC!

[Morrolan]

First, speaking of crimcode, is there a way to make non-weaponed brawling less of a crime?

Secondly, I suspect people are a lot more careful about (crimnal coded) actvities because (a) they lose their weapons, and (b) no one really understands the criminal code except through trial and error.  What this means is that most characters have an almost bourgeois (sp?) fear of being jailed.

A newbie criminal is like a newbie ranger.  Unless you are lucky or smart, SQUISH!  And yes, one can learn IC, or one can be a VERY law abiding citizen.  [note: by newbie, I refer to the player, not the character.]

But I think that the ability to take a poke at someone without major or dire consequences could be a joy in many people's lives.

[crymerci]

The problem with the crim code as it applies to assault, is that whoever initiates the combat is at a huge disadvantage.  Unless behind a locked door, there's a chance a soldier could walk in and automagickally know who started the fight and assume they're at fault.  If you have nosave set one way, you surrender to the soldier and die to your opponent, if you have it set the other way you resist arrest in order to remain alive (although by doing so you put yourself under a great penalty by having two opponents).  

I don't think hauling both fighters in would necessarily be effective, since it might mean a truly innocent assault victim getting jailed, losing important possessions, or even dying.

Having seperate nosave settings for militia and for everyone else might help, but there's still the possibility of your fight-opponent attacking you while the soldier has you nice and subdued.

[Quirk]

No.

The reasoning behind you getting wanted is that someone sees you doing something illegal. Now how could that person decipher the fact that the person you are illegally abusing is a non-citizen?

Um, let's see. They're dressed like a Northerner, or crying for help in a Northern accent, or they have pointy ears and don't matter anyway?

Hey, something very similar works in the 'Rinth.

Quirk

[X-D]

I think too many people avoid confrontation for their characters sakes OOCly when they shouldn't. I'm not talking here of the ingratiating half-elf who has every reason not to worsen his or her poor lot in life, I'm talking about the well-fed guard in a Noble House, or the comfortably off merchant who's on almost friendly terms with a templar,

Unfortunatly, I've seen people play their chars in a manner that would be realistic and would cause problems for others, and we are not talking killing here, and rather then the other chars handling things ic, somebody asks for staff intervention to defuse the matter. It has even happened to me recently, I was not so much pissed off about it as dissapointed that instead of taking a situation that could have been played out over a period of time to the enjoyment of everybody involved, including myself, either a staff member noticed and stepped in or somebody wished up for staff intervention (I think somebody wished up, or it was a staff pc to begin with...shrug) There are other points that bother me on that but they do not belong in this thread.

To summerize, Though the docs and even posts on the gdb from staff back up a certain type of behavier, the code does not support it, the players do not support it and at least some of the staff do not support it...for whatever reasons, maybe they want to protect a plot string or something, who knows. But untill those 3 things are fixed, you can expect things to continue as they have been.

[I Have Steel]

My main problem with playing North to South racism, is the backlash I recently got from it... From other people of my own city.

Sitting in the tavern with my recent character, someone from the 'other' city decides to speak. Heh, screw that, I was talking, and this foreign bastard was making too much noise for my liking. So in my hatred, i pretty much tell him what I think of him, and give him a big blade threat of why he needs to get the fek out of this city and go back home.

But in response, I was made the bad girl by my own people sitting around... Made me feel pretty useless/stupid for playing along what I should be playing, when I am seemingly gonna be outcast for it.

There was one instance between my character, a northy, magicker, and elf though recently, where the three 'evils' worked together, and through the use of mere words, we all broke down in laughs as the northy took out screaming down the main road. That was some excellent rp that I'll always remember.  :lol:

[Ueda]

But in response, I was made the bad girl by my own people sitting around... Made me feel pretty useless/stupid for playing along what I should be playing, when I am seemingly gonna be outcast for it.

Well thats just shitty,but most people should have some disliking in them for the non-citizens simply because, they have most of the City backing them, because it's the norm. I just feel bad that I wasn't there

[crymerci]

In my experience, hatred for north/south is only evident if the hated person is completely without power or influence.

Tulukis were really rather nice to Sujaal (or they came around pretty damn quick), and most people don't blink at a Kadian/Salarri/Kuraci with the wrong accent.

[Ueda]

People with power like Sujall and Houses arn't commonplace. like I've said in many post there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules.

Another thing is that alot of the Player Base gets to play the upper ring of society. (Which is awsome)

[Quirk]

People with power like Sujall and Houses arn't commonplace. like I've said in many post there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules.

Really? I'd say of the PCs located in a region they're not native to, the vast majority are with Houses. I could probably come up with some numbers to back that up, at least as regards the North, but I don't have my messy little text file of notes handy (writing from work).

Quirk

[LoD]

crymerci writes:

Tulukis were really rather nice to Sujaal (or they came around pretty damn quick)

I think many of you are looking to see fireworks, and extreme levels of hatred rather than the more common versions of the same emotion.  You want to see folks get thrown out of bars, chased out of town, beaten or killed by the sounds of the posts.  That's just not the way that people operate except in 'extreme' scenarios.

That sort of behavior MAY have happened (and did) a few years after the north-south war.  Everyone was still hot, society was disrupted, everyone was still very aware of their fallen mothers/brothers/sisterse/friends.

Now, you say that people 'came around quick' and I pose the question, 'Where exactly are you getting your information?'  If by 'quick' you mean over 20 years, then sure.  If by 'came around' you mean stopped shooting arrows, spitting, attacking, threatening, and generally harassing - then yes, after that time period, it started to settle down.

That doesn't mean that some of the northlands doesn't still harbor feelings of ill will toward Houses and southern born men/women.  Even if they ARE powerful.  You just can't expect people to take extreme action unless it is in an extreme situation more often than not.  People will generally avoid conflict, avoid confrontation, avoid trouble, and avoid danger if they can help it.  

That's why people look both ways before telling a racial joke.  That's why people say excuse me when they bump into someone.  Now, you may suggest that it's different in Arm, that everyone is of the mentality kill or be killed, but I still think that much of what you see carries the same theory.  Don't piss someone off unless you're ready, willing, and able to deal with the consequences of your actions.  And that is why you see a little muttering here and there, but not as much 'extreme' reactions to people in either city.

It is easily possible to play a bigot, a racist, a mean son of a bitch, or just an ignorant person who likes to run his mouth.  If you don't see enough of it, then play one and see what happens.  But I propose the people that go out of their way to play this way are working against themselves.  They are playing with an OOC motivation rather than feeding off the character's raw emotion.  Yes, your background says that you hate all northerners because they killed your father.  I could write that I am deaf and cannot hear when merchants shout 'Thief! Thief!' too - but that doesn't make spam stealing okay to do.  I need to still play within a certain level of boundaries and realism.

Anyhow - I've got no problem with people playing out the hatred their PC's feel, just think about why you're playing it that way and to what degree.  Would your character actually be insulting 'X' person that could potentially decide to come and kill you?  Is it worth it?  Or do you wait until the entire public is against the person to join the bandwagon, like most mobs do.

Anyhow, my 2 cents.

-LoD

[Quirk]

That's why people look both ways before telling a racial joke.  That's why people say excuse me when they bump into someone.  Now, you may suggest that it's different in Arm, that everyone is of the mentality kill or be killed, but I still think that much of what you see carries the same theory.

You're thinking of a multicultural society where the social pressure is in favour of playing nice. The social pressure on Zalanthas, however, is certainly not in favour of playing nice. When two races have vastly disparate levels of power and control over society, and the race with the upper hand has no qualms of conscience over the situation, the level of racism rises abruptly. Think whether a white man bumping into a black man during the apartheid era in South Africa would have apologised. It should be the rare human who apologises for bumping into an elf or dwarf on Zalanthas.

Lynch mobs and violence are, indeed, at the extreme end of racism. However, social ostracism is an old and powerful tool that ought to be used all over. You may not want to beat up that Southern merchant, but there's no reason for you to be on good terms with him, and certainly rebuffing his friendly advances causes you very little pain. You're his customer, and he has to deal with you, so it's not as if you have to suck up to him. You ought certainly to think twice before employing a Southerner if you're in the North - can she be trusted? Is she a 'Nakki spy? She's a heretic, she believes in a wicked god and she comes from a race of people who have oppressed and hurt your family and your friends' families. Why under Krath would you employ her when there are lots of Northerners without a job? What special skills does she bring that you need so badly? For a Merchant House where half the members are from the other side of the divide anyway this matters far less, but for a Noble House or a group of local hunters it makes a world of difference.

There is no word "bigot" in Zalanthas. People don't see treating people from the opposite side of the world or elves or dwarves as equals as enlightened, they see it as a first step down the road to being a traitor to your heritage. That doesn't mean they necessarily run round beating people up or spitting in their face, but it does mean that they will register their distrust openly.

And yes, why not insult that uppity elf who's taken your seat? This is a human-run city, and the elf's likely used to being insulted. What's he going to do, draw his sword and swing at you? The militia would have his head in the blink of an eye. Letting the elf take the best seat in the house without making it clear where he stands is much more likely to be poor RP to my mind.

Quirk

[Forest Junkie]

My opinion-

Hatred should not be expressed so overtly by everyone, unless they are completely ignorant about that dagger they'll get in their back some day.

Remember, your number one goal in Zalanthas is to survive, no matter what. This should be -everyone's- main goal, IMO.

Now, insert a possible scenario: You are a Tuluki, sitting at a bar. In walks an Allanaki. Now, here comes the problem. Either you a) show your ass, and likely get on that fucker's blacklist, or b) keep your fucking comments to yourself, and plan about putting a knife in -HIS- back.

Do you see my point? It makes no sense for a normal person with at least half a brain to spout out their racist comments. Of course, I can see a slip of the tongue at times, sure. I can even see blatant criticism of a southern boy sitting at the Sanc'. BUT, there is a limit to shit people take, and don't expect them to just take your trashtalk forever like a little beatch. No no, expect a tainted dagger in your gooch come high sun.

Remember kids, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Show no mercy, sure, but don't fucking expect any, and don't bitch if you get sliced up for fucking with that elfie.

[Ueda]

My opinion-

Either you a) show your ass, and likely get on that fucker's blacklist, or b) keep your fucking comments to yourself, and plan about putting a knife in -HIS- back.

Why does everything have to end in death? I see hatred as a common thing in Zalanthis, your not going to try and kill someone in the North because He called you a Tek, loving bastard? Cause frankly you are! (Hmmm, maybe your not, but at least you'll like him more than those people that took back over the north, damn huggable bunnies)

[Forest Junkie]

Ueda...Death is everything. The end of all things to come. So yes, everything -does- end in death.

I understand, there are some types of people who will just take the insults and go about their business, but most of the hardass, hardcore freaks will take offense, and plan, with pleasure =P, how they are going to kill you. That is just IMO.

[Delirium]

Meh, there's insults, and then there's "I'M GONNA BUST YOUR FACE OPEN, YOU TEK LOVING BASTARD!" Obviously the latter is stupid (though if your character would do it then by all means do it), and the former can be pulled off without needing to require death.

Grey areas, people, grey areas. Not just black or white all the time.

[Forest Junkie]

I agree, Delirium.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I really believe that there is a dirth of simple, honest-to-goodness beatdowns. The simple fact is that there should be more.

That is why, in taverns such as the Gaj and perhaps the Tooth, I would like to see code that takes in account whether you are using a weapon or not. Fist-to-fist fighting is simply not very applicable in Zlanathas currently, and it should be.

[Quirk]

Hatred should not be expressed so overtly by everyone, unless they are completely ignorant about that dagger they'll get in their back some day.

Remember, your number one goal in Zalanthas is to survive, no matter what. This should be -everyone's- main goal, IMO.

Remember kids, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Show no mercy, sure, but don't fucking expect any, and don't bitch if you get sliced up for fucking with that elfie.

Of course, but a Zalanthan would expect others to act in a way to ensure their survival too, and react accordingly. And if an elf takes shit from someone in a bar - not necessarily a beating or a death threat - retaliating would not be in that elf's interest. Indeed, if the elf has the slightest iota of desire to survive, why would they go messing with someone who insulted them in the past and risk bringing wrath down on their head right now? An elf reaching adulthood has likely suffered insults at the hands of hundreds of different people, and has survived because they haven't gone psycho and tried to get vengeance on all of them. Assassinating people who pose no clear threat to you only makes sense when you're in a position where the risks you run from arranging an assassination are less than the risks you run from losing people's respect, and as most elves have exactly zero respect in human circles...

This is something like apartheid. The dominant, controlling race are not going to worry too hard about offending their inferiors, because they have a military designed to keep them under control and they employ reasonable safeguards to ensure their own security, like good locks and guards patrolling the streets.

Like I said in an earlier post, there's far far too much pride being transferred into characters by some players. Almost all Zalanthans are going to be pragmatic and thick-skinned, and will suck up their insults and possibly even beatings without getting onto their high horse and risking death to pursue vengeance. If you're a noble killing people for giving you disrespect is par for the course. If you're a city elf 'Rinther scum, you can't afford the risks vengeance will bring down on your head.

I understand, there are some types of people who will just take the insults and go about their business, but most of the hardass, hardcore freaks will take offense, and plan, with pleasure =P, how they are going to kill you. That is just IMO.

Well, the kind of behaviour you're talking about here fits into "irrational psychopath" territory, where your "freak" isn't concerned first and foremost with personal safety and moreover wants to visit a disproportionate response on the person who insulted them. Now, they will exist on Zalanthas, but they ought to be so much in the minority that people shouldn't even have to consider the possibility. The simple facts are that a) most people don't consider insulting that elf a threat to their survival and b) if that elf is RPed sanely and hasn't got a heap of player pride injected under his skin, he won't risk his neck in some ill-judged attempt to get even.

Quirk

[God]

Quirk, note that vengeance is high on the list of elven personality traits. They do get their revenge, one way or another. There are other things besides survival, and pride is one of them.

[God]

Just to back up my point:

From "The Elven Persona"

As a general rule, the pride of elves makes them very sensitive to the amount of respect given them by both their tribemates and outsiders. In the case of outsiders, this will make elves very observant of how they are treated, and give them very long memories. Elves will remember even the smallest insult, and it will affect them for perhaps the rest of their lives. The theme of revenge often plays a large role in the lives of elves, because they are so sensitive, and so proud - many elves see revenge as the only way to regain the lost pride caused by an insult. The extent of the insult will determine the extent of the revenge, but most elves decide to inflict more damage with the revenge that was done by the insult: thus making them the "winners of the pride race."

Thus, your argument about elves is moot. True, they aren't suicidal, but if they feel they can exact vengeance, they will. It'd be better to apply your argument to common humans.

[Forest Junkie]

God and Quirk both make good points.

As Delirium pointed out, there are grey areas. =P

[Angela Christine]

I think there is racism, but it has to be kept reasonable.  There isn't any evidience that Zalanthans have had (or intend to have) a race war, an ethnic cleansing or a halocaust.  Mobs aren't going around lynching undesireables or burning crosses on their lawns.  Occasionally entire tribes, settlements and cities are wiped out, but that isn't really racially motivated and generally isn't carried out by unruly mobs.  Yes, there is discrimination and violence, but I don't get the impression that the racial situation is a ticking time bomb.

AC

[God]

I suppose I'll chime in my thoughts, since my character died while I was writing my last note. Look away for 60 seconds... *sniffle*

I don't think more hate, or, more accurately, social conflict is more realistic. People just want social conflict because it's dramatic, stirring, and entertaining. People want the MUD to be more exciting than RL, where an open social conflict is rare - very rare. There are many chances for social conflict, but usually it ends with the weaker-willed person bowing to more dominant person's will without a fight. To bring insults or hate to bear, a person needs to feel superior. They have to have power, be it physical, social, economic - whatever. The realistic response to their insults is the person glaring and ignoring them, or perhaps futiley fighting back. The reflection of this in the gameworld is that you have to gain power and experience before you feel confident enough to out starting fights.

It seems that people are more complaining about the overall friendliness of people in the cutthroat Zalanthas. Smiling and nodding gets terribly boring, but I don't see this as that much of a problem. It's realistic to be friendly. People try to at least put up a friendly outside face to avoid making enemies. However, it's so boring that I play rather unfriendly characters, though never murderous ones. I haven't PKed on Arm during my year and 14 characters or so, and I don't think it's realistic to murder over a little insult.

Just because I think friendliness is realistic doesn't mean I think people from other city-states should be accepted. All of my northern characters have considered the southerners to be parasites stealing our resources at the least, or spies at the worst. I show my contempt for them overtly, despite the "subtle" culture of Tuluk, but most people are FAR too accepting. We need a few lynchings and quarterings. Frankly, I don't see why the Templarate lets all these potential spies into their city. They should at least be required to register with the Templarate before being allowed into the city. True, a person could sneak in for a while, as you can't automatically sense a 'nakki, but they shouldn't be allowed to just walk right in.

[Rindan]

I think that you people are FAR too paranoid about people killing you.  My longest lived character ever was one of my most offensive characters.  He was a pure blooded racist Allanaki.  One time this character got in trouble due to something completely unrelated to what a racist bastard he was.  He double crossed someone, made an enemy, and as a result some shit was hitting the fan.  I was talking to one of my character's friends at the times about the messy incident that was slowly engulfing this character.  I commented on how much damned trouble I was in.  He laughed and told me that he knew I deep down inside I liked it because my character was so notorious for just starting fights and causing trouble.  He was probably right.  For the record, this character's bad habits and behavior never killed him.  He actually died after 'reforming' and cleaning up a little, and died committing what was likely the most selfless act of his life.  The point was that he lived a very long time as a very offensive person, and it never once came to smack him in the ass.

The problem I often see with people who play racists or just offensive people in general is that they don't know where to draw the line.  It is a-okay to get and beat up that 'rinth elf.  You can call that dirty 'rinth elf whatever names you want, pick any fights you want, and in general brutalize the bastard to your hearts content.  The key is that you need to know when to shut this off.  This is the key to any decent bastard.  A good bastard knows when the fight is not worth while.  A templar or a noble is a good example of a person you would have to be stupid to lock horns with.  When I see people insulting a noble or Templar, I don't think "Gee, that person is really offensive and a real good old fashion Allanaki bastard." I think "That person is a god damn idiot and about to die."  I tend to think this both OOCly and ICly.  Grow some guts, just don't be stupid about it.

As to this "I am really planning an assassination while I am smile!" crap, I don't buy it for a second, and even if I did buy it, I wouldn't like it.  This goes for both North and South.  You save that sort of trickery for things that matter.  You smile while you plot to kill your boss or your most hated enemies, not while you talking to a half-breed hunter or 'rinth elf.  Doing that would make you an insane sociopath, not a bigot.  In fact, plotting in general would just make you crazy.  If you are plotting to do something mean to some half-breed sitting next to you to show you are a bigot, then you are a little nuts.  Why would you waste your time thinking so much about some random half-breed?  Why would anyone waste their time plotting such a thing?  If you are going to be a racists (and most people should be), then do it like a racists would.  Show your detain and move on with life.  If someone you should dislike tries to talk to you, make your snide comment and move on.  Don't sit there smiling and talking while secretly plotting whatever the hell it is all those 'subtle' (and for the record, subtle and secret are two different things) people do.

Elves might be mindful of respect, but they are not sociopaths.  More importantly, I would hope elves realize the difference between bigotry and an insult.  Bigotry is a fact of life when it comes to living in a human controlled city.  If they responded to every act of bigotry, then their entire lives would be ruled with thousands of assassination plots.  The dirty Byn mercenary yelling an insult in the Gaj isn't insulting.  On the other hand, someone making a deal with you and some how cheating you would be insulting.  Being used or thieved from would be insulting.  Perhaps if an insult resulted in real humiliation then that might be insulting.  A few slung words are not what I think that help file is referring to.  If it is, then I think most elves are going to live lives ruled by a manic desire to inflict revenge upon every human they have run into.  Further, even if someone is insulted, then that does not mean that the elf is going to inflict retribution that is a thousand times greater.  If a Byn calls you a dirty name, a perfectly valid retaliation that would settle all matters of pride, in my opinion, would be a slightly nastier comment back and a mental note to steal his dagger if you ever get a good opportunity.  If should not lead to plotting anything more elaborate then that in my opinion.  That is just bad RP for any sane character in my opinion and does more to harm RP then help it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with Rindan completely.

[Quirk]

Good point, God, one I'd overlooked entirely.

And I'm also in agreement with Rindan all the way.

Quirk

[Bestatte]

I've been known to toss a loud grumbling "Damned vile southerners" around from time to time (among other more covert activities involving curved or hooked blades)...

Funny thing is, even when it's just a grumble and not an actual public or rowdy threat, I've been scolded by some of those more official-type people in the north for daring to even mention my disdain. "Oh maybe they just came up here to be reformed," for example.. or "Well the city allows them here so we have to be tolerant and accepting" for another example.

I mean, I'm not standing there telling a southern PC that if he doesn't get out of my sight I'm gonna slice his neck off, and damned the jail fine. THAT I think would be a) not too bright and b) just a wee more uncivilized than the North portends to be.

So for all you PC clan leaders (of noble houses, merchant houses, and other clan-type position) in the north: When a citizen makes a *mention* of their disgust when a southerner's around, remember where you are. If it's in your character's character to not care how he is perceived by the general public of south-hating commoners, then go ahead and kiss a southerner today! Right there in the middle of the street! If, on the other hand, you care about the reputation of the clan you represent, and consider that there -are- commoners who could beat your south-loving ass to a pulp, then maybe it's you who should try a bit more subtlety.

Oh and to a certain templar who made a one-line comment the other day - that was... PERFECT. So thanks. It really did refresh my enjoyment of northern roleplay.

[John]

I can see a northerner sitting in the gaj drinking an ale when four or five southerners(drunk or not) approach him and start a fight.

Sorry for not reading the whole 5 pages. But IC wise. If I were to start a brawl with an unclanned northerner and even kill them, would I get punished? Should I get punished? (ignoring the code here for the post )

[Delirium]

Nice post, Rindan.

I imagine you'd get punished, John, just not nearly as severely as you would if it had been a citizen. Assuming that your character was southern and was in Allanak.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Necromancy.

[RogueGunslinger]

Necromancy.

Clever.

I personally love making a character who is a downright mean, loathing bastard. I always enjoy the roleplay that comes from an open confrontation, and love enticing people into them.

[Spoon]

I can see a northerner sitting in the gaj drinking an ale when four or five southerners(drunk or not) approach him and start a fight.

Sorry for not reading the whole 5 pages. But IC wise. If I were to start a brawl with an unclanned northerner and even kill them, would I get punished? Should I get punished? (ignoring the code here for the post )

This is more about power and authority rather than if anyone cares. Lord Templar hardarse does all the killing in this town.

[brytta.leofa]

A favorite early Arm memory: riding up to Tuluk with my wide-eyed Byn runner on an escort contract.

Watching my sergeant inexplicably speak with a northern accent and talk delicately about how he was, of course, not actually born in the "Black City."  Asking for ale in the high-class watering hole.  Drawing a flurry of veiled jabs from Aide Swishyskirt.

[Folker]

I hate you Smoky.

[Troicha]

If we brought the nasty feelings smeared across the GDB IG, this problem would be solved.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

HAHAHA.

Or worsened. I can't count the number of times I have heard about someone upset because they swear that there is an OOC vendetta against them on the part of other players.

Regardless, yes, in keeping with the theme of the thread, hatred is always just fine. Just ... don't be insane about it and expect to keep breathing.

[Akaramu]

That being said, it would be nice if there were more people who were overt about their feelings.

It would also be nice if PCs didnt agree to pay ridiculous amounts of sid to get someone murdered over an insult that wasn't THAT bad.

Or if the response to snappish, arrogant PC's wasn't to murder them, but rather some other form of payback. 

[Ghost]

good good...

now release your anger

[Akaramu]

good good...

now release your anger

Rawr.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3346/foffbv5.jpg

Just kidding, Ghost, you know I wub you.

[Nile]

You obviously haven't seen me IG. Hating is what I do.

[Zoltan]

My PC got hated on a couple times recently. It was... nice. 

[Arillion]

I am confused why hatred has to equal murder? Arent there better long term things that could be done to accomplish the hatred thing and have more to RP?

Death is the end of RP for one player's character and thus the loss of RP that might have gone on longer.

Castration...now there is a vehicle of hate.

[Nile]

One problem I've suffered, was that every time I'd hate on somebody they'd then try to kill me. People just don't know how to take the hate.

[Synthesis]

"...for a wounded man shall say to his assailant, 'If I live, I will kill you.  If I die, you are forgiven."  Such is the rule of honor."

[BlackMagic0]

Castration...now there is a vehicle of hate.

I doubt I could do that to the person, I hated worst in this world.. That is just plain, WRONG!