Hatred....

[Anonymous]

I think in a world  based on betrayal and corruption, it's best not to let people know you hate them, but that doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of hatred.

I agree.  But its not just a world based on betrayal and corruption.  Its also based on ignorance, racism and a class system which leaves the vast majority without a pot to piss in.

Just like depressed economies in the south give rise to hate groups, and economic hardship in the middle east lends fuel to the religious fire in that region....so would a *large* contingent of commoners be looking for someone to take their frustrations out on.

I don't demand or expect everyone to play dumb Johnny Allanaki.  I know I haven't done it near as much as I should.

But give it a try.  Characters who are overt in their beliefs, morals, actions and intentions are refreshlingly free to do anything in a Tyler Durden sort of way.

[Unclean]

I'll have you know my character hates about everyone and gets into the shit with about everyone. Especially you filthy southerners. And I know a lot of other Pc's who feel the same in -private-, don't say anything in public but wait to catch the -enemy- somewhere where they won't get arrested for bashing their heads in. Just because you don't see it doesnt mean we aren't slavering to stain the sands with your stinking blood.

[Anonymous]

Just because you don't see it doesnt mean we aren't slavering to stain the sands with your stinking blood.

I don't believe in forcing anyone to play a certain way, however....

If *everyone* plots in secret, and *everyone* had a half-elven psionicist uncle who was saved from certain death by a mul defiler and a elven ranger who were lead there by an elementalist....

Then nobody is playing the norm.

Again, I'd encourage people to play the occasional PC that is incapable of hiding their feelings or plotting beyond waiting for the damn stinking elf to turn his head.

My last PC got in quite a few fights and tried starting a lot more.  I don't have anything against people who don't want to play overtly racist PCs...but it was a lot of fun being the total ass.  Didn't seem like much of a reach either...

Stereotypes can be fun too.

[growingall]

I once played an elf warrior that really did think humans were inferior..

whisper human Scream for me roundear.

:swings his two swords in wild arcs, splattering he humans blood on the walls of the narrow alley.

:licks his knife with some glee.

think I wonder how a loincloth of human skin would look like?

Curiously I don't think I got any karma points for that one..  :roll:

[Armaddict]

Quite frankly, I'm getting a little sick of everyone saying 'I'm the subtle type'.  Why is it -everyone- is so damn subtle?  Everyone is -so- subtle, that they never actually get any hating acts accomplished.  They sit at their barstool, look at the dude a minute, do a few thinks of "Oh, how I'd like to blah blah blah, but I'll wait to blah blah blah, because I'm a genius."

Why is it there are no groups of three or four commoners who stand up from their table to approach that guy in the bar and say, 'We don't like you here.  You should leave."

I know that I led such a small group, once before...and it turned out excellent.  The victim can either be a jerk, and ignore you knowing that they're protected by crimcode (Even though I'm sure some 'nakki soldiers would turn their head from a known northerner getting beat by a group of noble house guards), or they can actually take into account that they've got a group of angry, undisciplined assholes threatening to take their ass outside and slit their throat.

Ah...that's right.  They don't have to worry.  Everyone is too subtle to be dangerous.

[Bushranger]

You may be right, the world may need more hatred. Then again, if I am in the Gaj and I punch someone I don't like I'm going to get arrested and possibly killed by 10000000 half-giant guards, my character knows this IC and I know it OOC. Then again, if I start giving insults the so-called victem will usually insult you back and dare you to hit him, knowing as you do you will get arrested and/or killed for it. Thus, nothing much happens except one of you looks like a pansy and, in my opinion, it doesn't make very interesting RP.

I prefer just to ignore those who I don't like, talk grudgingly with those I don't know but might be ok and make racial/geographical jokes in private with my friends.

Not everyone is a Nazi, commiting hate crimes left and right.

Besides, if everyone knows I hate them what is to stop them from killing my 3 hour characters who haven't got a group of friends yet? Not everyone has 50 friends ready to back them up if they get into trouble.

[aeshyw]

Don't discount cowardice.  It is a perfectly valid motive for one's actions and one that would help most people to survive.  

Personally, my PC rarely shows her disdain, racism or hatred of people from other places to them, for fear they might act against her.  But she has no qualms about quietly arranging their violent, horrible and brutal demise to happen later.

[Quirk]

A lot of this has to do with current code limitations as well as general RP level. If a drunken Bynner in the Gaj swings a punch at a Northern elf, nobody should care. The crimcode simply shouldn't kick in. Even if the Bynner picks up a makeshift weapon and starts knocking the elf round - who cares? It's a bar populated largely by Bynners and as long as nobody important is being picked on, the militia should look the other way. Similarly, if you're RPing the elf or Northerner, you should be afraid to give lip back to the drunken Bynner because ICly he and the crowd of brown abas at the back of the room could beat you to a pulp and no-one would care. Similarly, other Southerners and non-elves ought to back up one of their own in putting the outcast back in their place.

And, to comment on aeshyw's remark - and aeshyw's not the first to say something like it, I'm only mentioning it because I've seen it too often - there is something badly wrong with your RP if you arrange for someone to be killed just because they're an outcast while not showing it to their face. There is a not even slightly thin line between reinforcing social status by putting inferiors down (or even, at a stretch, beating that uppity elf up to teach him he can't insult a Bynner in a Byn bar) and calm, cold-blooded murder of those of another race or culture. If you've got a valid reason to have someone assassinated good for you - but I can't imagine you'd let them off being assassinated simply because they're fully human and come from your hometown. If you've not, what you're doing is as crude in RP terms as going into the 'Rinth to hunt elves. If you're scared to tell someone how much you despise them to their face, you can still show how you really feel by talking behind their back. And if they have outcast status you can torment them safely when you deem you have enough friends nearby. Planning for their murder is an entirely different notion.

Quirk

[aeshyw]

Quirk,

I could not agree with you more.  However, say for instance...you're a krathi desert elf with 'I love Tuluk' tattooed on your forehead and you sit next to me at the Bard's Barrel.  Chances are...I see you as a threat and a chance to get back at naughty ole Muk in my own small way.

Normally, I think that we're a lot better off with more public floggings, maimings and flat out beat downs then random killings. I see nothing wrong with "Mr. PrissyMerchant smiles politely to the halfbreed burping on his infant son's head and contacts his guardsmen..telling them to give the creature a beating he won't soon forget and tell him not to show his face here again".

I should also add, that this same character who does not usually dare to confront someone face to face commonly refers to other races in casual conversation with slurs without even thinking twice, even if there are others about.  There's a wide gap between inviting disaster and showing disdain, imho.  Also...if I have someone beat down..they are damn well going to know why.  Otherwise, there's no point. :twisted:

[Bestatte]

Quirk,

I could not agree with you more.  However, say for instance...you're a krathi desert elf with 'I love Tuluk' tattooed on your forehead and you sit next to me at the Bard's Barrel.  Chances are...I see you as a threat and a chance to get back at naughty ole Muk in my own small way.

Normally, I think that we're a lot better off with more public floggings, maimings and flat out beat downs then random killings. I see nothing wrong with "Mr. PrissyMerchant smiles politely to the halfbreed burping on his infant son's head and contacts his guardsmen..telling them to give the creature a beating he won't soon forget and tell him not to show his face here again".

Heh. If he's got an "I love Tuluk" tattoo on his forehead, he's probably not wearing a gem, so chances are unless YOU are also a magicker, you wouldn't know he was one too. Plus unless you're a noble, merchant family, or templar, you can't read that tattoo.

But yeah like you said aeshyw - give the boy a beating. But killing him just because he's different isn't the place of the general public, not even important people in the general public. Unless you can verify that he's a threat to your person or your employer or your house, arranging for his death should get YOU in trouble from the powers that be ICly. If you can verify that yeah - this desert elf krathi with the northern tattoo is plotting your noble boss's demise, then go for it. But if you can't verify it, then I'd say you're asking for a headache - and whoever pays you should make sure that headache lasts a good long while.

[Quirk]

I'd also like to add that some people who choose to play half-breeds, or city elves, or 'gemmers or whatever should get rid of their pride. Since your character was knee-high to a jozhal, he or she has almost certainly been cursed, insulted, spat on, jeered at and discriminated against. Likely that character's endured a beating or two as a child; children are cruel, and crueler still when they know they can get away with it. If Miss Prissy Merchant murmurs something mildly derogatory about you in the midst of a crowded bar - lap it up! Even if your city elf considers himself or herself above the stupid roundears, chances are they've put up with so much already in life that an insult or even a beating aren't going to have them breathing blood and thunder and hot on the revenge trail. Sure, if the character who's insulted you ends up someday in your power, they'll suffer, but going out of your way to take vengeance isn't really going to be IC for most people, and plotting to kill them for calling you what every child on the block called you as you were growing up is just silly. A little more thick skin would be just dandy.

Back on the other side again, if a big bluff Northern veteran starts loudly making fun of Tek in the middle of a 'Nak bar, and the thought of facing him alone scares your character, get a group together and confront him at their head. Heck, if no PCs are around, I'm sure many imms would be sympathetic if you wished up for the kind of response a Southern crowd would give to such remarks.

Gemmers are subtly different. They are protected by law, and are scary people to boot. Politeness in their presence is entirely sensible. That doesn't mean you can't mutter derisive comments to your friends across the table as you see them enter. Again, though, hiring a contract killer to take them out because they're a gemmer isn't really a valid response to the situation.

There should be no real reason in game for someone to believe that one of their inferiors is going to hurt them because they bore the brunt of a few racial slurs or were discriminated against. It should (and I believe generally does) take quite a lot of pushing before an elf or half-breed snaps and decides to do something about their tormentors. Additionally, characters ought not to be too cowardly when all the odds are on their side and their society supports them.

Quirk

[aeshyw]

Quirk,

As a rule, yes.  However..characters should have flaws.  They should sometimes be cowards, sometimes be idiots who fluster at every insult and sometimes be ready to kill someone for what others might not consider a good reason at all. They are characters with their own quirks and issues and its that constant not knowing how someone will react that is part of what makes Armageddon so interesting and dangerous.

I would never tell someone that playing a coward or a fearless buffoon is bad RP.  I would tell someone that playing a coward or a fearless buffoon and expecting no consequences to come from their actions is silly.

[crymerci]

However, say for instance...you're a krathi desert elf with 'I love Tuluk' tattooed on your forehead and you sit next to me at the Bard's Barrel.  Chances are...I see you as a threat and a chance to get back at naughty ole Muk in my own small way.

But the Barrel is owned by a northerner, and frequented by many elves and magickers.  I don't see how that one person, even with all those traits combined, is a threat just by existing.  To paraphrase Bestatte, "What's s/he done to you?"  If your character really is genocidal, cool.  But the reason that these types of people survive in the world is that there's just too many of them to give any single one of them more than a bit of harassment here and there.

[Quirk]

As a rule, yes.  However..characters should have flaws.  They should sometimes be cowards, sometimes be idiots who fluster at every insult and sometimes be ready to kill someone for what others might not consider a good reason at all.

...

I would tell someone that playing a coward or a fearless buffoon and expecting no consequences to come from their actions is silly.

The current problem, however, is that too many people play either cowards or fearless fools, and hence the consequences are slow in coming. A couple of cowards in a non-cowardly population is fine, but when most of the PC inhabitants of a city are openly pleasant to everyone for fear of reprisals it skews the atmosphere of the area away from what it is in theory meant to be. I think too many people avoid confrontation for their characters sakes OOCly when they shouldn't. I'm not talking here of the ingratiating half-elf who has every reason not to worsen his or her poor lot in life, I'm talking about the well-fed guard in a Noble House, or the comfortably off merchant who's on almost friendly terms with a templar, an established and respected citizen with no more reason to fear elven vengeance for their slurs than they'd fear a slave uprising if they beat a slave they owned for doing something wrong. That's not to say that such a merchant shouldn't be business-like and even polite when selling goods to someone they dislike, but that ragged elf who doesn't look like he has the sid to be a customer can be put in his place without a second thought.

I don't see too many racial minority hotheads, but they can also lead to undesirable RP patterns forming. Even if people aren't in danger from the newbie hothead half-elf warrior, they become more cautious about insulting half-elves because the last one blew up in their face and attacked them - this should be rare, it should be very very rare - and the knock-on effect is that more open conflict is lost from the game because people worry that other members of the despised minorities will react the same way. Even if the hot-head dies, their atypical behaviour can send ripples of caution through the RP of a whole region. The fewer of them, the better.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Quirk brought up something that gives me an idea...can the crimcode be tweaked to ignore offenses against non-citizens?

[Stroker]

No.

The reasoning behind you getting wanted is that someone sees you doing something illegal. Now how could that person decipher the fact that the person you are illegally abusing is a non-citizen?

[Stroker]

Unless that person is an uber-pooper mindmender, in that case BURN THE HERETIC!

[Morrolan]

First, speaking of crimcode, is there a way to make non-weaponed brawling less of a crime?

Secondly, I suspect people are a lot more careful about (crimnal coded) actvities because (a) they lose their weapons, and (b) no one really understands the criminal code except through trial and error.  What this means is that most characters have an almost bourgeois (sp?) fear of being jailed.

A newbie criminal is like a newbie ranger.  Unless you are lucky or smart, SQUISH!  And yes, one can learn IC, or one can be a VERY law abiding citizen.  [note: by newbie, I refer to the player, not the character.]

But I think that the ability to take a poke at someone without major or dire consequences could be a joy in many people's lives.

[crymerci]

The problem with the crim code as it applies to assault, is that whoever initiates the combat is at a huge disadvantage.  Unless behind a locked door, there's a chance a soldier could walk in and automagickally know who started the fight and assume they're at fault.  If you have nosave set one way, you surrender to the soldier and die to your opponent, if you have it set the other way you resist arrest in order to remain alive (although by doing so you put yourself under a great penalty by having two opponents).  

I don't think hauling both fighters in would necessarily be effective, since it might mean a truly innocent assault victim getting jailed, losing important possessions, or even dying.

Having seperate nosave settings for militia and for everyone else might help, but there's still the possibility of your fight-opponent attacking you while the soldier has you nice and subdued.

[Quirk]

No.

The reasoning behind you getting wanted is that someone sees you doing something illegal. Now how could that person decipher the fact that the person you are illegally abusing is a non-citizen?

Um, let's see. They're dressed like a Northerner, or crying for help in a Northern accent, or they have pointy ears and don't matter anyway?

Hey, something very similar works in the 'Rinth.

Quirk

[X-D]

I think too many people avoid confrontation for their characters sakes OOCly when they shouldn't. I'm not talking here of the ingratiating half-elf who has every reason not to worsen his or her poor lot in life, I'm talking about the well-fed guard in a Noble House, or the comfortably off merchant who's on almost friendly terms with a templar,

Unfortunatly, I've seen people play their chars in a manner that would be realistic and would cause problems for others, and we are not talking killing here, and rather then the other chars handling things ic, somebody asks for staff intervention to defuse the matter. It has even happened to me recently, I was not so much pissed off about it as dissapointed that instead of taking a situation that could have been played out over a period of time to the enjoyment of everybody involved, including myself, either a staff member noticed and stepped in or somebody wished up for staff intervention (I think somebody wished up, or it was a staff pc to begin with...shrug) There are other points that bother me on that but they do not belong in this thread.

To summerize, Though the docs and even posts on the gdb from staff back up a certain type of behavier, the code does not support it, the players do not support it and at least some of the staff do not support it...for whatever reasons, maybe they want to protect a plot string or something, who knows. But untill those 3 things are fixed, you can expect things to continue as they have been.

[I Have Steel]

My main problem with playing North to South racism, is the backlash I recently got from it... From other people of my own city.

Sitting in the tavern with my recent character, someone from the 'other' city decides to speak. Heh, screw that, I was talking, and this foreign bastard was making too much noise for my liking. So in my hatred, i pretty much tell him what I think of him, and give him a big blade threat of why he needs to get the fek out of this city and go back home.

But in response, I was made the bad girl by my own people sitting around... Made me feel pretty useless/stupid for playing along what I should be playing, when I am seemingly gonna be outcast for it.

There was one instance between my character, a northy, magicker, and elf though recently, where the three 'evils' worked together, and through the use of mere words, we all broke down in laughs as the northy took out screaming down the main road. That was some excellent rp that I'll always remember.  :lol:

[Ueda]

But in response, I was made the bad girl by my own people sitting around... Made me feel pretty useless/stupid for playing along what I should be playing, when I am seemingly gonna be outcast for it.

Well thats just shitty,but most people should have some disliking in them for the non-citizens simply because, they have most of the City backing them, because it's the norm. I just feel bad that I wasn't there

[crymerci]

In my experience, hatred for north/south is only evident if the hated person is completely without power or influence.

Tulukis were really rather nice to Sujaal (or they came around pretty damn quick), and most people don't blink at a Kadian/Salarri/Kuraci with the wrong accent.

[Ueda]

People with power like Sujall and Houses arn't commonplace. like I've said in many post there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules.

Another thing is that alot of the Player Base gets to play the upper ring of society. (Which is awsome)