Hatred....

[Quirk]

People with power like Sujall and Houses arn't commonplace. like I've said in many post there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules.

Really? I'd say of the PCs located in a region they're not native to, the vast majority are with Houses. I could probably come up with some numbers to back that up, at least as regards the North, but I don't have my messy little text file of notes handy (writing from work).

Quirk

[LoD]

crymerci writes:

Tulukis were really rather nice to Sujaal (or they came around pretty damn quick)

I think many of you are looking to see fireworks, and extreme levels of hatred rather than the more common versions of the same emotion.  You want to see folks get thrown out of bars, chased out of town, beaten or killed by the sounds of the posts.  That's just not the way that people operate except in 'extreme' scenarios.

That sort of behavior MAY have happened (and did) a few years after the north-south war.  Everyone was still hot, society was disrupted, everyone was still very aware of their fallen mothers/brothers/sisterse/friends.

Now, you say that people 'came around quick' and I pose the question, 'Where exactly are you getting your information?'  If by 'quick' you mean over 20 years, then sure.  If by 'came around' you mean stopped shooting arrows, spitting, attacking, threatening, and generally harassing - then yes, after that time period, it started to settle down.

That doesn't mean that some of the northlands doesn't still harbor feelings of ill will toward Houses and southern born men/women.  Even if they ARE powerful.  You just can't expect people to take extreme action unless it is in an extreme situation more often than not.  People will generally avoid conflict, avoid confrontation, avoid trouble, and avoid danger if they can help it.  

That's why people look both ways before telling a racial joke.  That's why people say excuse me when they bump into someone.  Now, you may suggest that it's different in Arm, that everyone is of the mentality kill or be killed, but I still think that much of what you see carries the same theory.  Don't piss someone off unless you're ready, willing, and able to deal with the consequences of your actions.  And that is why you see a little muttering here and there, but not as much 'extreme' reactions to people in either city.

It is easily possible to play a bigot, a racist, a mean son of a bitch, or just an ignorant person who likes to run his mouth.  If you don't see enough of it, then play one and see what happens.  But I propose the people that go out of their way to play this way are working against themselves.  They are playing with an OOC motivation rather than feeding off the character's raw emotion.  Yes, your background says that you hate all northerners because they killed your father.  I could write that I am deaf and cannot hear when merchants shout 'Thief! Thief!' too - but that doesn't make spam stealing okay to do.  I need to still play within a certain level of boundaries and realism.

Anyhow - I've got no problem with people playing out the hatred their PC's feel, just think about why you're playing it that way and to what degree.  Would your character actually be insulting 'X' person that could potentially decide to come and kill you?  Is it worth it?  Or do you wait until the entire public is against the person to join the bandwagon, like most mobs do.

Anyhow, my 2 cents.

-LoD

[Quirk]

That's why people look both ways before telling a racial joke.  That's why people say excuse me when they bump into someone.  Now, you may suggest that it's different in Arm, that everyone is of the mentality kill or be killed, but I still think that much of what you see carries the same theory.

You're thinking of a multicultural society where the social pressure is in favour of playing nice. The social pressure on Zalanthas, however, is certainly not in favour of playing nice. When two races have vastly disparate levels of power and control over society, and the race with the upper hand has no qualms of conscience over the situation, the level of racism rises abruptly. Think whether a white man bumping into a black man during the apartheid era in South Africa would have apologised. It should be the rare human who apologises for bumping into an elf or dwarf on Zalanthas.

Lynch mobs and violence are, indeed, at the extreme end of racism. However, social ostracism is an old and powerful tool that ought to be used all over. You may not want to beat up that Southern merchant, but there's no reason for you to be on good terms with him, and certainly rebuffing his friendly advances causes you very little pain. You're his customer, and he has to deal with you, so it's not as if you have to suck up to him. You ought certainly to think twice before employing a Southerner if you're in the North - can she be trusted? Is she a 'Nakki spy? She's a heretic, she believes in a wicked god and she comes from a race of people who have oppressed and hurt your family and your friends' families. Why under Krath would you employ her when there are lots of Northerners without a job? What special skills does she bring that you need so badly? For a Merchant House where half the members are from the other side of the divide anyway this matters far less, but for a Noble House or a group of local hunters it makes a world of difference.

There is no word "bigot" in Zalanthas. People don't see treating people from the opposite side of the world or elves or dwarves as equals as enlightened, they see it as a first step down the road to being a traitor to your heritage. That doesn't mean they necessarily run round beating people up or spitting in their face, but it does mean that they will register their distrust openly.

And yes, why not insult that uppity elf who's taken your seat? This is a human-run city, and the elf's likely used to being insulted. What's he going to do, draw his sword and swing at you? The militia would have his head in the blink of an eye. Letting the elf take the best seat in the house without making it clear where he stands is much more likely to be poor RP to my mind.

Quirk

[Forest Junkie]

My opinion-

Hatred should not be expressed so overtly by everyone, unless they are completely ignorant about that dagger they'll get in their back some day.

Remember, your number one goal in Zalanthas is to survive, no matter what. This should be -everyone's- main goal, IMO.

Now, insert a possible scenario: You are a Tuluki, sitting at a bar. In walks an Allanaki. Now, here comes the problem. Either you a) show your ass, and likely get on that fucker's blacklist, or b) keep your fucking comments to yourself, and plan about putting a knife in -HIS- back.

Do you see my point? It makes no sense for a normal person with at least half a brain to spout out their racist comments. Of course, I can see a slip of the tongue at times, sure. I can even see blatant criticism of a southern boy sitting at the Sanc'. BUT, there is a limit to shit people take, and don't expect them to just take your trashtalk forever like a little beatch. No no, expect a tainted dagger in your gooch come high sun.

Remember kids, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Show no mercy, sure, but don't fucking expect any, and don't bitch if you get sliced up for fucking with that elfie.

[Ueda]

My opinion-

Either you a) show your ass, and likely get on that fucker's blacklist, or b) keep your fucking comments to yourself, and plan about putting a knife in -HIS- back.

Why does everything have to end in death? I see hatred as a common thing in Zalanthis, your not going to try and kill someone in the North because He called you a Tek, loving bastard? Cause frankly you are! (Hmmm, maybe your not, but at least you'll like him more than those people that took back over the north, damn huggable bunnies)

[Forest Junkie]

Ueda...Death is everything. The end of all things to come. So yes, everything -does- end in death.

I understand, there are some types of people who will just take the insults and go about their business, but most of the hardass, hardcore freaks will take offense, and plan, with pleasure =P, how they are going to kill you. That is just IMO.

[Delirium]

Meh, there's insults, and then there's "I'M GONNA BUST YOUR FACE OPEN, YOU TEK LOVING BASTARD!" Obviously the latter is stupid (though if your character would do it then by all means do it), and the former can be pulled off without needing to require death.

Grey areas, people, grey areas. Not just black or white all the time.

[Forest Junkie]

I agree, Delirium.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I really believe that there is a dirth of simple, honest-to-goodness beatdowns. The simple fact is that there should be more.

That is why, in taverns such as the Gaj and perhaps the Tooth, I would like to see code that takes in account whether you are using a weapon or not. Fist-to-fist fighting is simply not very applicable in Zlanathas currently, and it should be.

[Quirk]

Hatred should not be expressed so overtly by everyone, unless they are completely ignorant about that dagger they'll get in their back some day.

Remember, your number one goal in Zalanthas is to survive, no matter what. This should be -everyone's- main goal, IMO.

Remember kids, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Show no mercy, sure, but don't fucking expect any, and don't bitch if you get sliced up for fucking with that elfie.

Of course, but a Zalanthan would expect others to act in a way to ensure their survival too, and react accordingly. And if an elf takes shit from someone in a bar - not necessarily a beating or a death threat - retaliating would not be in that elf's interest. Indeed, if the elf has the slightest iota of desire to survive, why would they go messing with someone who insulted them in the past and risk bringing wrath down on their head right now? An elf reaching adulthood has likely suffered insults at the hands of hundreds of different people, and has survived because they haven't gone psycho and tried to get vengeance on all of them. Assassinating people who pose no clear threat to you only makes sense when you're in a position where the risks you run from arranging an assassination are less than the risks you run from losing people's respect, and as most elves have exactly zero respect in human circles...

This is something like apartheid. The dominant, controlling race are not going to worry too hard about offending their inferiors, because they have a military designed to keep them under control and they employ reasonable safeguards to ensure their own security, like good locks and guards patrolling the streets.

Like I said in an earlier post, there's far far too much pride being transferred into characters by some players. Almost all Zalanthans are going to be pragmatic and thick-skinned, and will suck up their insults and possibly even beatings without getting onto their high horse and risking death to pursue vengeance. If you're a noble killing people for giving you disrespect is par for the course. If you're a city elf 'Rinther scum, you can't afford the risks vengeance will bring down on your head.

I understand, there are some types of people who will just take the insults and go about their business, but most of the hardass, hardcore freaks will take offense, and plan, with pleasure =P, how they are going to kill you. That is just IMO.

Well, the kind of behaviour you're talking about here fits into "irrational psychopath" territory, where your "freak" isn't concerned first and foremost with personal safety and moreover wants to visit a disproportionate response on the person who insulted them. Now, they will exist on Zalanthas, but they ought to be so much in the minority that people shouldn't even have to consider the possibility. The simple facts are that a) most people don't consider insulting that elf a threat to their survival and b) if that elf is RPed sanely and hasn't got a heap of player pride injected under his skin, he won't risk his neck in some ill-judged attempt to get even.

Quirk

[God]

Quirk, note that vengeance is high on the list of elven personality traits. They do get their revenge, one way or another. There are other things besides survival, and pride is one of them.

[God]

Just to back up my point:

From "The Elven Persona"

As a general rule, the pride of elves makes them very sensitive to the amount of respect given them by both their tribemates and outsiders. In the case of outsiders, this will make elves very observant of how they are treated, and give them very long memories. Elves will remember even the smallest insult, and it will affect them for perhaps the rest of their lives. The theme of revenge often plays a large role in the lives of elves, because they are so sensitive, and so proud - many elves see revenge as the only way to regain the lost pride caused by an insult. The extent of the insult will determine the extent of the revenge, but most elves decide to inflict more damage with the revenge that was done by the insult: thus making them the "winners of the pride race."

Thus, your argument about elves is moot. True, they aren't suicidal, but if they feel they can exact vengeance, they will. It'd be better to apply your argument to common humans.

[Forest Junkie]

God and Quirk both make good points.

As Delirium pointed out, there are grey areas. =P

[Angela Christine]

I think there is racism, but it has to be kept reasonable.  There isn't any evidience that Zalanthans have had (or intend to have) a race war, an ethnic cleansing or a halocaust.  Mobs aren't going around lynching undesireables or burning crosses on their lawns.  Occasionally entire tribes, settlements and cities are wiped out, but that isn't really racially motivated and generally isn't carried out by unruly mobs.  Yes, there is discrimination and violence, but I don't get the impression that the racial situation is a ticking time bomb.

AC

[God]

I suppose I'll chime in my thoughts, since my character died while I was writing my last note. Look away for 60 seconds... *sniffle*

I don't think more hate, or, more accurately, social conflict is more realistic. People just want social conflict because it's dramatic, stirring, and entertaining. People want the MUD to be more exciting than RL, where an open social conflict is rare - very rare. There are many chances for social conflict, but usually it ends with the weaker-willed person bowing to more dominant person's will without a fight. To bring insults or hate to bear, a person needs to feel superior. They have to have power, be it physical, social, economic - whatever. The realistic response to their insults is the person glaring and ignoring them, or perhaps futiley fighting back. The reflection of this in the gameworld is that you have to gain power and experience before you feel confident enough to out starting fights.

It seems that people are more complaining about the overall friendliness of people in the cutthroat Zalanthas. Smiling and nodding gets terribly boring, but I don't see this as that much of a problem. It's realistic to be friendly. People try to at least put up a friendly outside face to avoid making enemies. However, it's so boring that I play rather unfriendly characters, though never murderous ones. I haven't PKed on Arm during my year and 14 characters or so, and I don't think it's realistic to murder over a little insult.

Just because I think friendliness is realistic doesn't mean I think people from other city-states should be accepted. All of my northern characters have considered the southerners to be parasites stealing our resources at the least, or spies at the worst. I show my contempt for them overtly, despite the "subtle" culture of Tuluk, but most people are FAR too accepting. We need a few lynchings and quarterings. Frankly, I don't see why the Templarate lets all these potential spies into their city. They should at least be required to register with the Templarate before being allowed into the city. True, a person could sneak in for a while, as you can't automatically sense a 'nakki, but they shouldn't be allowed to just walk right in.

[Rindan]

I think that you people are FAR too paranoid about people killing you.  My longest lived character ever was one of my most offensive characters.  He was a pure blooded racist Allanaki.  One time this character got in trouble due to something completely unrelated to what a racist bastard he was.  He double crossed someone, made an enemy, and as a result some shit was hitting the fan.  I was talking to one of my character's friends at the times about the messy incident that was slowly engulfing this character.  I commented on how much damned trouble I was in.  He laughed and told me that he knew I deep down inside I liked it because my character was so notorious for just starting fights and causing trouble.  He was probably right.  For the record, this character's bad habits and behavior never killed him.  He actually died after 'reforming' and cleaning up a little, and died committing what was likely the most selfless act of his life.  The point was that he lived a very long time as a very offensive person, and it never once came to smack him in the ass.

The problem I often see with people who play racists or just offensive people in general is that they don't know where to draw the line.  It is a-okay to get and beat up that 'rinth elf.  You can call that dirty 'rinth elf whatever names you want, pick any fights you want, and in general brutalize the bastard to your hearts content.  The key is that you need to know when to shut this off.  This is the key to any decent bastard.  A good bastard knows when the fight is not worth while.  A templar or a noble is a good example of a person you would have to be stupid to lock horns with.  When I see people insulting a noble or Templar, I don't think "Gee, that person is really offensive and a real good old fashion Allanaki bastard." I think "That person is a god damn idiot and about to die."  I tend to think this both OOCly and ICly.  Grow some guts, just don't be stupid about it.

As to this "I am really planning an assassination while I am smile!" crap, I don't buy it for a second, and even if I did buy it, I wouldn't like it.  This goes for both North and South.  You save that sort of trickery for things that matter.  You smile while you plot to kill your boss or your most hated enemies, not while you talking to a half-breed hunter or 'rinth elf.  Doing that would make you an insane sociopath, not a bigot.  In fact, plotting in general would just make you crazy.  If you are plotting to do something mean to some half-breed sitting next to you to show you are a bigot, then you are a little nuts.  Why would you waste your time thinking so much about some random half-breed?  Why would anyone waste their time plotting such a thing?  If you are going to be a racists (and most people should be), then do it like a racists would.  Show your detain and move on with life.  If someone you should dislike tries to talk to you, make your snide comment and move on.  Don't sit there smiling and talking while secretly plotting whatever the hell it is all those 'subtle' (and for the record, subtle and secret are two different things) people do.

Elves might be mindful of respect, but they are not sociopaths.  More importantly, I would hope elves realize the difference between bigotry and an insult.  Bigotry is a fact of life when it comes to living in a human controlled city.  If they responded to every act of bigotry, then their entire lives would be ruled with thousands of assassination plots.  The dirty Byn mercenary yelling an insult in the Gaj isn't insulting.  On the other hand, someone making a deal with you and some how cheating you would be insulting.  Being used or thieved from would be insulting.  Perhaps if an insult resulted in real humiliation then that might be insulting.  A few slung words are not what I think that help file is referring to.  If it is, then I think most elves are going to live lives ruled by a manic desire to inflict revenge upon every human they have run into.  Further, even if someone is insulted, then that does not mean that the elf is going to inflict retribution that is a thousand times greater.  If a Byn calls you a dirty name, a perfectly valid retaliation that would settle all matters of pride, in my opinion, would be a slightly nastier comment back and a mental note to steal his dagger if you ever get a good opportunity.  If should not lead to plotting anything more elaborate then that in my opinion.  That is just bad RP for any sane character in my opinion and does more to harm RP then help it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with Rindan completely.

[Quirk]

Good point, God, one I'd overlooked entirely.

And I'm also in agreement with Rindan all the way.

Quirk

[Bestatte]

I've been known to toss a loud grumbling "Damned vile southerners" around from time to time (among other more covert activities involving curved or hooked blades)...

Funny thing is, even when it's just a grumble and not an actual public or rowdy threat, I've been scolded by some of those more official-type people in the north for daring to even mention my disdain. "Oh maybe they just came up here to be reformed," for example.. or "Well the city allows them here so we have to be tolerant and accepting" for another example.

I mean, I'm not standing there telling a southern PC that if he doesn't get out of my sight I'm gonna slice his neck off, and damned the jail fine. THAT I think would be a) not too bright and b) just a wee more uncivilized than the North portends to be.

So for all you PC clan leaders (of noble houses, merchant houses, and other clan-type position) in the north: When a citizen makes a *mention* of their disgust when a southerner's around, remember where you are. If it's in your character's character to not care how he is perceived by the general public of south-hating commoners, then go ahead and kiss a southerner today! Right there in the middle of the street! If, on the other hand, you care about the reputation of the clan you represent, and consider that there -are- commoners who could beat your south-loving ass to a pulp, then maybe it's you who should try a bit more subtlety.

Oh and to a certain templar who made a one-line comment the other day - that was... PERFECT. So thanks. It really did refresh my enjoyment of northern roleplay.

[John]

I can see a northerner sitting in the gaj drinking an ale when four or five southerners(drunk or not) approach him and start a fight.

Sorry for not reading the whole 5 pages. But IC wise. If I were to start a brawl with an unclanned northerner and even kill them, would I get punished? Should I get punished? (ignoring the code here for the post )

[Delirium]

Nice post, Rindan.

I imagine you'd get punished, John, just not nearly as severely as you would if it had been a citizen. Assuming that your character was southern and was in Allanak.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Necromancy.

[RogueGunslinger]

Necromancy.

Clever.

I personally love making a character who is a downright mean, loathing bastard. I always enjoy the roleplay that comes from an open confrontation, and love enticing people into them.

[Spoon]

I can see a northerner sitting in the gaj drinking an ale when four or five southerners(drunk or not) approach him and start a fight.

Sorry for not reading the whole 5 pages. But IC wise. If I were to start a brawl with an unclanned northerner and even kill them, would I get punished? Should I get punished? (ignoring the code here for the post )

This is more about power and authority rather than if anyone cares. Lord Templar hardarse does all the killing in this town.

[brytta.leofa]

A favorite early Arm memory: riding up to Tuluk with my wide-eyed Byn runner on an escort contract.

Watching my sergeant inexplicably speak with a northern accent and talk delicately about how he was, of course, not actually born in the "Black City."  Asking for ale in the high-class watering hole.  Drawing a flurry of veiled jabs from Aide Swishyskirt.