Roleplaying Backstab

[LoD]

According to -you-, their buddy would be in danger after being subjected to the horrors of the backstab skill.  And according to -you,- when their buddy turned around and said "My turn, let me backstab you a few hundred times" then they too would be in danger.  That you don't recognize this or else have chosen not to address it is the contradiction I'm seeing in the underlying theme of your posts.

What is there to recognize if there is only one assassin, which was my example?  There is no contradiction.  There is no failure to recognize any relationship.  One person says, "Hey, turn around, I'm gonna drive this dagger at your throat, but don't worry - I'll make sure I don't kill you."  

You're telling me that someone would agree to that?  Maybe you would.
I wouldn't.  And that's the simple fact.  Yes, according to -me- backstabbing a friend, in any setting and with any setup is the same as fireballing your friend, subduing and hitting your friend or sapping your friend, and that's why I wouldn't condone or participate in it.

The fact is, that skilled warriors (or even unskilled if they're of the right race and you get a little luck on your stat rolls) pose a huge amount of threat to the average character, far more than any assassin I'm aware of ever has.

Is that because an assassin has a lesser potential for successful PK's or because a warrior's skill set is more easily practiced?  An assassin can train and use skills that would kill a warrior without him ever knowing who the killer was, without ever touching the warrior physically, without ever entering into combat with the warrior.

Warriors cannot do this.  My contention for why this may be is because most people favor the path of least resistance and don't have the patience or imagination to take on the role of a skilled and competent assassin.  Anyone can play a warrior, but as you've mentioned in your post - not everyone can play a successful assassin since you've never been killed by one to your knowledge.

I have.  And they are frightening when they are skilled.

Warriors and assassins are situational.  The warrior may be both more accessible and more widely used, but there are circumstances that will disallow a warrior from even being able to attempt what an assassin may be able to do successfully.  Having played a 100 day warrior, I am well aware of what they are capable of, how long it takes to get there and my vulnerabilities.  And there are situations in which my warrior would have been ill equipped or completely unable to reach a point an assassin could have with a different skill set.

Sap is a special case... essentially the same arguments I would have for backstab, I would hold for that skill as well.

Again, -I- just cannot agree to wrapping a towel inside my helm to protect me against blunt trauma striking me with enough force to render me unconcious and feel "okay" about it.  Probably just as much as Rindan cannot condone backstabbing a rat.

Subdue-killing isn't a skill.  You can get better at the skills -necessary- to become better at subdue-killing without exposing yourself to a shred of risk.

Yes, but the point is that this is a tactic some people use as a devastating attack upon another person.  When you practice it, do you actually follow through with the strike or do you simply stop at the subdue?  If you DO stop at the subdue, then why would you ever proceed with a coded backstab or sap?  

Blowing people up is a skill that a magicker can practice without a shred of risk.

Yes, but would you allow someone to practice their fireball on you?  Would you allow them to "only singe you a little bit" because you've wrapped yourself in flame retardent clothing?  Since uber fire only does a little damage at the lowest level, you wouldn't mind your character being burned even a little by magickal fire for the good of a % point increase?  

The underlying theme of all these examples seem to be that they all serve to erode your arguement.

The underlying theme connecting each of these skills and their practice is that they all hold the potential for great personal harm to someone.  Being struck by a club in sparring has a chance to causing to personal harm as well, but it is much less likely than practicing a skill which is specifically targetting not only a vulnerable, but also a lethal, location on your body.

I swordfight with some people, and I -might- get smacked in the crotch by accident sometimes when we fight, even though that's not my intention.  I  would not, however, be interested in the slightest should one of them ask me if they can practice their "crotch shot" -- even if they offered to pad me up real good because the potential[/i] for personal harm is greatly increased and their education isn't worth the potential loss.

What I mean by risk vs. reward pertains to these skills that could, feasibly, kill someone in a single shot.  I've never been killed by a warrior in one shot, but I have been killed by assassins in such a manner.  Skills or tactics that could end a character's life in one practical application should not be an easily practiced thing behind closed doors.  There should be some element of risk involved with gaining the power, or there is no accountability or responsibility.

If you didn't have to work for something, you won't respect it.

I am arguing principles, because I do sympathize and agree with Rindan on many counts that backstab is one of the few skills that is difficult to practice because its lack of practical scenarios in which one can advance their proficiency, especially if you (the player) feels strongly about not using one of the alternative methods such as fighting animals, humanoids or having a role that holds a fair chance of meeting up with sentient enemies that need a little murdering.

I just don't mind it being difficult to practice as much as he does.

What I do appreciate about his posts, however, is that he mostly strays from sarcasm and insulting the other poster.  I wish you'd follow his example.

-LoD

[Ghost]

So why is this not okay for thieves? Without searching I'll bet I can find plenty of threads containing a general consensus that it's twinkish to fail a steal (Actually Nen's thieving bible mentions not to do this to NPCs or PCs at the very top of the article), sneak back into the room and try to steal from the same victim again. Is that not twinking the steal skill? So the only way to justify backstabbing PC, sneaking out, then back in again and backstabbing again, is to disassociate itself from thievery on Arm.

Picking pockets and backstabbing is not relevant to each other.  In a backstab attempt, you immediately get crim-flagged to start with, and you start a combat. You are already in a bad shape anyway.  If you don't finish off your target, you will be reported as a would-be-killer and there you will confront your local templar.
Yet still, I would not mind you trying it again after fail on PCs.  Because PCs again can do something like calling a templar and giving a report about you immediately.  Or if you sucked too bad and got crimflagged, they will bash your PC and whack you good for it.  You might still desperately be trying to steal, RPing properly in that as well, but you will face the templar, or the angry PC in one way or another.

But pickpocketing NPCs after they start shouting "Thief! Thief!", that, is a bad RP, as you can see:

Examples of inappropriate play:

   * Actions designed purely to advance skills, such as spamming commands, with no regard for roleplay.
   * Disregarding the game world, such as stealing repeatedly from an NPC who is shouting "Thief!"

Now it is a bad RP.  Because you did not suck in stealing too badly, you did not get crim-flagged, and you just got the victim suspicious, but not whom to suspect.  A crafty PC will realize who the would-be thief is.  But an NPC does not have that option.  An NPC won't be able to contact to a templar/soldier and give who might be the suspect(s) trying to steal from him.  A PC on the other hand will have a good chance to get you busted.

Provided you RP it properly.  You don't just steal from someone from half a room away.  So make sure you have not just emoted you are far away from the victim, just before your steal attempt.  Or if you are going to attempt a few times repeatedly on the same victim, make sure you have emoted standing near him.  Because the code does not give any idea where you are when the action takes place in stealing.

If RPed properly, I would find it fair to try steal on the same victim (PC) a few times.  If it is NPC however, I would expect you not to try it if he starts shouting "Thief!  Thief!".

[Rindan]

If a PC is sitting there holding his belt and emoting being paranoid, I REALLY hope you don't think that it is okay keep trying to steal from them.  If they go back to drinking their ale, perhaps you can justify trying again.  If they are pretty clearly aware that something is up, stealing again is just twinkish.  Just because the code lets you do something doesn't mean that you should do it.

The issue with backstabbing someone in the face who has their weapons drawn and stealing from a guy emoting being paranoid is that the code doesn't care what their state of alertness is.  Critical strike or no, whacking a big mean pissed off warrior when he is in a combat stance is hard.  It is a hell of a lot harder then whacking him when he is surprised by the attack.  The same goes for stealing from someone who is on the lookout for a thief.  A guy looking for stray hands is a hell of a lot more difficult of a target then a guy quietly enjoying his ale at the bar.  

Unfortunately, there is no coded way to be paranoid.  As far as the code is concerned, all characters not in combat are in a blissful state of unawareness.  This lets your assassin who could not land a blow on a warrior in normal combat to save his life some how magically by pass his weapons and land a critical strike even when he is staring at you with his weapons ready expecting you to come.  This also lets your elven thief merrily loot a dagger that someone has RPed putting their hand on.

Until there is a way to intentionally cripple your own skills to reflect the increased challenge in stealing/backstabbing someone who is aware of your presence or there is a way for victims to make themselves alert and dramatically harm your chances for success, I personally think it is just code abuse to steal or backstab someone who is expecting it.  If you want to steal again, wait until they stop RPing being paranoid.  If you want to backstab someone in the face again, either use shadow/hide and truly surprise them again, or get them to RP dropping their guard.  Using these skills on a fully alert victim when you know that your chance to succeed is exactly the same as if they had their back turned and were totally unaware of you is just twinkish in my opinion.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

We have the no-quit flag, which disallows someone from quitting out right after a fight. Why not use that same flag to decrease the chances of a second, third, etc, backstab? Simply put, if that flag is on, the code will reduce your final backstab roll by ... say, 25%, even 50%.

Would that account for the alertness?

[EvilRoeSlade]

We have the no-quit flag, which disallows someone from quitting out right after a fight. Why not use that same flag to decrease the chances of a second, third, etc, backstab? Simply put, if that flag is on, the code will reduce your final backstab roll by ... say, 25%, even 50%.

Sounds like a kludgy solution.  The effect should not be to make the assassin less skilled, but to make that particular victim harder to pull one over on.

I'd rather see something like an "Alert" status effect that shows up when you type stat.  You can NEVER induce this effect upon yourself, but if someone uses backstab on you and you live, or uses steal on you and fails, then you automatically recieve the effect and until it wears off, it becomes much harder or impossible for someone to use those skills on you.

[Rindan]

Sounds like a kludgy solution.  The effect should not be to make the assassin less skilled, but to make that particular victim harder to pull one over on.

I'd rather see something like an "Alert" status effect that shows up when you type stat.  You can NEVER induce this effect upon yourself, but if someone uses backstab on you and you live, or uses steal on you and fails, then you automatically recieve the effect and until it wears off, it becomes much harder or impossible for someone to use those skills on you.

I personally would prefer "alert" to be something you can simply toggle on.  If you don't toggle it on every minute or so, it wears off.  It can only be done standing.  Every time you type it in, you echo dropping into a combat stance, so it isn't something you are going to realistically be doing every minute of your life.  Anyone in combat is automatically 'alert'.  As to what 'alert' would do, it would depend upon the skill being used.  

For a skill like steal it would dramatically drop the chances of a successful steal by upping your perception skills for the purposes of making steal checks.  I would make it so that it offers a moderate bonus to your chance of spotting sneaking people as well.  For skills like sap or backstab, I would make it so that instead of doing skill checks Vs perception skills to see if the backstab hits, it does a skill check against combat skills.  If you are facing off against someone who knows you are coming, you need to get past their weapons, not move so quietly.  Your assassin might be able to slam a hunk of obsidian into a 40 day old warrior while he is having an ale and has his back turned, but when he is standing, looking at you, has two long sharp hunks of obsidian held in either hand, and is pissed off, your chances of landing a blow probably sink close to zero.  On the other hand, merchant might very well be looking you in the face as you easily avoid his flailing hands and shank him in the gut.  Hence, it makes sense to do backstab skill checks against alert people against their weapon skills.

[EvilRoeSlade]

What is there to recognize if there is only one assassin, which was my example?  There is no contradiction.  There is no failure to recognize any relationship.  One person says, "Hey, turn around, I'm gonna drive this dagger at your throat, but don't worry - I'll make sure I don't kill you."

Perhaps then there is a flaw in your example.  I don't think you'll see many assassins joining the Byn, thinking "I'm going to practice my backstab on all those warriors without the faintest fear of ever getting hurt in turn."  I did something along those lines when I was a bit more naive and unsure of the appropriate use of the backstab skill.  I learned that it doesn't work.

But whether or not it's more likely two assassins will practice or an assassin will practice with another class isn't something that's really worth arguing about.

You're telling me that someone would agree to that?  Maybe you would.
I wouldn't.  And that's the simple fact.  Yes, according to -me- backstabbing a friend, in any setting and with any setup is the same as fireballing your friend, subduing and hitting your friend or sapping your friend, and that's why I wouldn't condone or participate in it.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I've used all of these tactics and I'd really have to say that backstab and sap are the dangerous, far less dangerous than ordinary sparring.

Is that because an assassin has a lesser potential for successful PK's or because a warrior's skill set is more easily practiced?  An assassin can train and use skills that would kill a warrior without him ever knowing who the killer was, without ever touching the warrior physically, without ever entering into combat with the warrior.

Yes, but it isn't easy.  And I would say that the primary focus of this discussion is the backstab skill, which is a melee skill, and does in fact require its user to enter combat.

And I would have to say that if my goal was to kill someone, then making a warrior and joining the Byn for a few years and then finding a way to get to a secluded area with that person is probably the best way to do it.  It's been done to me, and the attackers have gotten away with it.  I've done it to others and gotten away with it.  I've taken 63 damage from a dual-wielding warrior who saw it fit to dish out a surprise attack on me.  I'd be honestly surprised if an assassin equally as skilled as that warrior (who probably didn't have an obscenely large amount of playing time on her) could accomplish the same feat with backstab.

Yes it's true, not everyone can play an assassin.  Both the warrior and assassin seem to me to be classes that require spending their days engaging in melee combat.  But playing a warrior is far more effective in my opinion if you desire to engage in melee combat of any sort, including assassinations.

Yes, but the point is that this is a tactic some people use as a devastating attack upon another person.  When you practice it, do you actually follow through with the strike or do you simply stop at the subdue?  If you DO stop at the subdue, then why would you ever proceed with a coded backstab or sap?

The point is that yes, subdue-killing is extremely deadly, but comes with absolutely none of the risk/reward that an assassin supposedly must contend with.

Yes, but would you allow someone to practice their fireball on you?  Would you allow them to "only singe you a little bit" because you've wrapped yourself in flame retardent clothing?  Since uber fire only does a little damage at the lowest level, you wouldn't mind your character being burned even a little by magickal fire for the good of a % point increase?

If I was playing a dude that blows things up, I wouldn't agree to a spell-sparring match with my friend who also blows things up.  I also wouldn't agree to pretend I don't notice him so he can sneak up on me and try to blow me up.

However, if I was playing a dude that likes to stab things with knives, I would agree to a knife-sparring match in which we pretend we're fighting and attempt to stab each other with sparring knives.  That's because there's a general consensus that when sparring, even though you might take a bit of damage, you can still RP it as mere bruises that you can easily recover from.  I'd also let my friend try to sneak up on me and stab me with a sparring knife, for generally the same reasons.  If I'm well-armored, I don't expect to recieve any serious injuries from a silly little wooden knife that doesn't even have a real point.

The underlying theme connecting each of these skills and their practice is that they all hold the potential for great personal harm to someone.  Being struck by a club in sparring has a chance to causing to personal harm as well, but it is much less likely than practicing a skill which is specifically targetting not only a vulnerable, but also a lethal, location on your body.

I believe the code would disagree with you if you're suggesting that, for example, sparring with a 5 day dwarven warrior with a club in each hand is more dangerous than sneak attack training with a 5 day assassin who has a dagger in one hand.

What I mean by risk vs. reward pertains to these skills that could, feasibly, kill someone in a single shot.  I've never been killed by a warrior in one shot, but I have been killed by assassins in such a manner.  Skills or tactics that could end a character's life in one practical application should not be an easily practiced thing behind closed doors.  There should be some element of risk involved with gaining the power, or there is no accountability or responsibility.

I assume you don't particularly care for any magicker class, then.

I disagree with your risk vs. reward arguement.  I don't want assassins to be able to amass power so quickly that a newbie could roll one up and start slaughtering the population with impunity after a few hours, but nor do I want powerful assassins to be so rare that I'd have to have played this MUD for ten or eleven years before I finally run into one that has even the vaguest ability to kill me.

Skilled assassins are good for the environment.  When you step on a nobles toes in Tuluk, and she smiles at you, and then two weeks later you've mysteriously vanished and everyone who once new you suddenly seems to have trouble remembering you existed, that is good for the environment.  When a southern noble starts stepping on the toes of the blue-robes and throwing his money in places that he'd be advised not to throw his money into... and then has an accident, that is good for the environment.

Assassins are to leaders what gortok are to newbie rangers.  They are the threat of death, which should appear more frequently in those higher sectors.  Commoners struggle to earn something to eat, and nobles struggle to avoid eating something that hasn't been laced with poison.  That is the world that the documentation suggests, and that is the world that I'd like to see a reality.  Removing the bias on training the backstab skill is just one step in the right direction.

As for sarcasm and insults, I'm honestly puzzled as to why you continually accuse me of such things when I try to be as respectful and as neutrally toned as possible, but thankfully, I'm past the point of taking the baseless accusations of people on the internet seriously.  Clearly there has been a misunderstanding somewhere, but accusation and persecution seems to be unlikely to resolve it.

And have a great day.

[Martial Kank]

I really don't see why backstab couldn't be trained just like any other skill. I've taken martial arts and I have practiced many techniques that could potentially break man's arm. I repeatedly practiced this on my sparring/training partners and they practiced the same techniques on me. And you know what? No one was ever injured. It was just a matter of holding back just before the right amount of force was exerted. I admit I had a good deal of trust for my partner, I knew that no one was going to intentionally hurt me. (though, this is only a small comfort when my instructer was flopping me around like a rag doll)

Now, I know that sneaking up on a guy for a stab and practicing a standard arm bar techniques are not the same thing. But the general argument seems to be that backstab should not be trained with another   that skill is -always- used with an attempt to harm.  Realistically 'the backstab skill' could be trained in a way similar to my martial arts class. All movements associated with the skill would be the same as those used by the assasin, just the eventual stab would be held back or reduced in some way. However I would agree that nobody would practice this skill with Joe Tavern Sitter they just met and didn't trust

From a in game perspective, I think the stigma surrounding the skill occurs becuase there is no way to practice the skill without incurring a good deal of damage. I think there should be a practice backstab command. Something like the 'nil' of spellcasting. It would be a way of practicing the skill without harming the partner. The catch would be that you would need a willing partner. Somone who wouldn't mind pretending to be unaware that his death creeps up on him. We also should have an echo, just so that Assasin McNoob doesn't walk into a tavern and then spam the command until he maxes his skill. I'd even say that it should have a hostile responce when used on npc's for similar reasons.

Thoughts?

[Rindan]

From a in game perspective, I think the stigma surrounding the skill occurs becuase there is no way to practice the skill without incurring a good deal of damage. I think there should be a practice backstab command. Something like the 'nil' of spellcasting. It would be a way of practicing the skill without harming the partner. The catch would be that you would need a willing partner. Somone who wouldn't mind pretending to be unaware that his death creeps up on him. We also should have an echo, just so that Assasin McNoob doesn't walk into a tavern and then spam the command until he maxes his skill. I'd even say that it should have a hostile responce when used on npc's for similar reasons.

I don't think a new command is needed.  From my experience as someone who has helped to train an assassin by being his pin cushion, getting backstabed with a training dagger will not hurt you enough to require you to sleep to heal.  The only thing needed to make coded training of backstabbing is for it to be an acceptable practice OOCly.  Personally, I have absolutely no problem with Kurac or a noble house training assassins by making up assassin games.  That said, unless it has changed, the official imm line is that you are not allowed to train backstab in any coded manner.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

A possible method to implement a nil backstab would be as simple as checking for the mercy flag's status, and adjusting the damage multiplier accordingly. We use mercy to keep spars non-fatal, do the same with the backstab and sap skills and approve their training.

[HunterKiller]

A possible method to implement a nil backstab would be as simple as checking for the mercy flag's status, and adjusting the damage multiplier accordingly. We use mercy to keep spars non-fatal, do the same with the backstab and sap skills and approve their training.

Good idea.  Incorporate the mercy flag already implemented.

- HK

[flurry]

I'd also let my friend try to sneak up on me and stab me with a sparring knife, for generally the same reasons.  If I'm well-armored, I don't expect to recieve any serious injuries from a silly little wooden knife that doesn't even have a real point.

When I saw this, I thought "well, gee, then those training daggers should be breaking all the time if people were allowed to practice backstab with them".  But then, maybe that would be a good thing.

I have always had the impression that the policy on backstab was as much motivated by OOC considerations as by IC realism.  If there were a coded, safe, accessible way to practice them regularly, no matter how realistic that is, it would probably be a bad thing for the game.  As it is now, it's self limiting - it's hard to get good at those things, so you don't get a lot of PCs who are good at them.  I think that's a good thing, but I do kind of wish there were a middle ground.  Maybe something coded like special training dummies/equipment, with strict limitations on access.  I don't know, but I think too easy to train would be worse for the game than too hard to train.

[Anonymous]

I usually don't emote when I'm backstabbing people. It tends to take away from the element of suprise.

I once had this character who would backstab everyone that pissed him off. Sometimes, people would piss him off so he'd chase after them and then kill them with a quick, precise backstab. Then he'd take all their loot and sell it and get lots of coins for it.

He also liked flowers. He told me he wanted to collect lots of flowers so I dressed him up and got him a nice basket to collect flowers in. So he went out into a field and collected lots of flowers. He got all different colors and sizes of flowers and he brought them back to his house. Then he tried to backstab somebody who pissed him off with one of his best flowers but it didn't work so he just gave the flower to the guy and then backstabbed him.

I should make a character exactly like this again, I think it would enroll many people in highly-developed, detailed RP that is good for the game.

Backstabbing is fun, but don't emote when you do it.

Oh, on a side note, it's really fun backstabbing dwarves.

[Anonymous]

I usually don't emote when I'm backstabbing people. It tends to take away from the element of suprise.

I once had this character who would backstab everyone that pissed him off. Sometimes, people would piss him off so he'd chase after them and then kill them with a quick, precise backstab. Then he'd take all their loot and sell it and get lots of coins for it.

He also liked flowers. He told me he wanted to collect lots of flowers so I dressed him up and got him a nice basket to collect flowers in. So he went out into a field and collected lots of flowers. He got all different colors and sizes of flowers and he brought them back to his house. Then he tried to backstab somebody who pissed him off with one of his best flowers but it didn't work so he just gave the flower to the guy and then backstabbed him.

I should make a character exactly like this again, I think it would enroll many people in highly-developed, detailed RP that is good for the game.

Backstabbing is fun, but don't emote when you do it.

Oh, on a side note, it's really fun backstabbing dwarves.

[Zharal]

I have always had the impression that the policy on backstab was as much motivated by OOC considerations as by IC realism.  If there were a coded, safe, accessible way to practice them regularly, no matter how realistic that is, it would probably be a bad thing for the game.  As it is now, it's self limiting - it's hard to get good at those things, so you don't get a lot of PCs who are good at them.  I think that's a good thing, but I do kind of wish there were a middle ground.  Maybe something coded like special training dummies/equipment, with strict limitations on access.  I don't know, but I think too easy to train would be worse for the game than too hard to train.

I'm totally with you on this...  I also believe that this skill once achieved is a very strong skill and
must be limited or positioned in a manor  thus to protect us from abuse and power gamming of it.  
It is not impossible to get good at backstab, its just hard to twink its progression without being
noticed of it.  I personally don't feel it is correct to backstab rats or to do it to someone in sparring.  
The idea, in my thoughts, is to be able to position yourself into a situation that would allow you  to
slip through someone's defenses and strike a critical area.  I don't see this happening  in a sparring
ring.  I do however believe there are other ways to go about learning Backstab..  Figure out ways
you can rp out learning the skill, write the Imms, if they approve then your on a road to something.  
If I am correct you don't necessary have to engage  the skill to get better at it, there's always rp
and possible advancement for it.

[LucidApex]

I skipped over reading most of this article because I am a lazy, impatient bastard, so this may have been said before, but here goes:

I see backstab as a combinatiion of all three: anatomy, location, and suprise.  I honestly think the skill is very difficult to pull off even once, correctly. Basically, here is the way it works: you have to sneak up on the person, distract them, keep tthem unaware of your presence. Then you have to calculate where you will hit them, and from what angle. Then you have to pull it off. The person can't move, or it'll throw your aim off. The person has to basically be a sitting duck, and you have to be excellent with the placement of your weapon for it to be good. Youpretty much have to be a master for a backstab to kill in just one hit. That would be for the ideal backstab anyways.

Now...to attempt to backstab in combat might be that your character is just skilled at aiming for critical areas. He makes his hits count.

I think the solution to this problem would be a lot of work. The division of the skill. One skill, backstab, lets you attempt a one hit kill, if it hits, it does a hell of a lot of damage. The other would be critical strike skill, which lets you add a set amount of damage to your attacks with a certain success rate.

Too much work. I.e. don't be twinky. Aiming in combat is dificult, much less hitting the person. The only way I can see backstbbing in combat would be maybe after a successfu parry, or three successfull hits. I dunno. It really just boils down to using one's best judgement.

Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

I just can't understand why, if there is no non-twinky way to make a particular skill better, that the people running this game would hand it out to newbies like candy.

Why should there be only one skill in the game which can only be trained by roleplaying? A skill that is extremely important if you want assassins to be differentiated from other classes in any way. (well, there seems to be that or poisoning someone).

*doesnt understand any of this at all*

[Xygax]

I just can't understand why you think there are any skills in the game that can be trained without roleplaying.  This is an RP-required MUD.

-- X

[Cenghiz]

This a common mistake. Done a lot by a Turkish friend too.. Raising skills is RP. So let's say, if my human warrior attends every sparring session and spars to raise his skills, if a human ranger seeks a master archer and takes lessons from him then the codewise teach, if an elementalist walks to a spot in rhyme with his element and performs a training session which causes a branch, it's still RP.

Raising skills in an unrealistic manner is twinking. I train spells with my every mage, spar with my every warrior, hunt harder and harder animals with my every ranger, steal a logical amount from PCs and NPCs and backstab a logical amount of NPCs in 'rinth with my every assassin. I have never received a bad note and I don't think I will. IRL we study lessons, work out in body building saloons and read books etc etc... It is a part of life we live. Just the same, IG our characters practice skills and it's a part of their lives.

[gfair]

Roleplaying Backstab - it seems almost like an oxymoron. How do you roleplay trying to severely wound someone with one strike? How can you possibly train this skill?

To attempt to backstab someone is a direct statement: you are my target, and I aim to kill you. How could someone possibly volunteer to help someone train their skill in this, when life is very precious in Arm and the person could die?

Sparring dummies don't work because sparring dummies don't react, and it's the reaction, the movement and manners of the target that make backstab so hard.

And with regards to backstab and sap training - realistic to train on beasts? Realistic to use on beasts, or are they humanoid-only skills?

Ideas?

[Ghost]

I think it makes sense to use backstab on beasts, sometimes.

Roleplaying backstab can be simplified to two steps: Aim, and the accuracy against the reaction.

Aim is basically that.  Aim.  You paint a spot in the target, and you attempt to strike there with all your strength.  How close you are, will determine your accuracy.  If you can hit nearly on the spot when you use all your strength and speed, then you have the perfect aim.  That can be roleplayed on everything.  Including beasts, kids, normal people, dummies, boxes...etc.  Just pick a spot and try to hit exactly there.

The second and more important part is the race against your opponent.  Considering you are now facing a real opponent with the instincts of survival, you will not find it easy to reach the spot you mark.  He will attempt to dodge it, parry it, block it, cover it and you will have to get past the defense.  You can achive this by speed (by being quicker than your opponent's reaction time) or by stealth (not letting him know you are going for the kill) by surprise (faking that you are aiming for somewhere else) or by sheer strength (breaking down whatever gets in the way and still reaching the spot).  This can be Roleplayed with people with a little combat experience and animals (to some point).  

Because everybody will have a basic instict for survival, they will not let you reach to their vital spots.  A veteran fighter will probably have a lot of ways to cover his vital spots than a novice fighter.  But still, it will require some trick to get past the novice fighter.

The thing about the animals is that, you can practice it with animals too.  Because they will have a survival instinct and they will not be handing you their neck without a fight.  They usually have their own ways to respond to a threat. The basic animal instinct that responds to your threat to its vital points will be very similar nearly at each attempt.  Like dodging, covering the spot with its furs and what not.  At some points it will be similar to fighting a novice warrior.  So yes, even at "the fighting against the instinct part" you can train with animals, but it will be for a short period of time (depending on the reaction time and fighting capabilities of the animal).  You will have to take it against more and more advanced opponents in fight, and responding more like a normal person in a fight... So you will need to take it to a real combat (veteran, humanoid fighter), after some level.

Basically I am saying.. Yes you can train on anything for a short while and you can train with animals for maybe a little longer than you can train with "anything".  And in order to master it, you will have to take it to the real combat (veteran humanoid warrior).

EDIT:  By real combat, I mean, fighting an experienced humanoid fighter.

[Xygax]

I have no problem with using backstab/sap on beasts.  If we want you not to gain skill when attacking non-humanoids, we'll reflect that in the code (it wouldn't be hard, maybe it already does that).

-- X

[Ghost]

I have no problem with using backstab/sap on beasts.  If we want you not to gain skill when attacking non-humanoids, we'll reflect that in the code (it wouldn't be hard, maybe it already does that).

-- X

I think it already does reflect it.  I do believe, on a one to one fight, animals are more prone to backstab/sap, thus making it easier to success and impossible to maximize the skill.

[gfair]

Ok, thanks for the tips.

[Anonymous]

I have no problem with using backstab/sap on beasts.  If we want you not to gain skill when attacking non-humanoids, we'll reflect that in the code (it wouldn't be hard, maybe it already does that).

-- X

Eh, careful, Xygax.  You might not remember the people getting karma nerfed for buying a kank, taking it outside the gates by three rooms, and backstabbing it, but I do.

There is a school of Armageddoners who feels that practicing backstab on rats, kanks, or other animals is poor form for the reasons Larrath already mentioned (predominantly differences in anatomy).

It is possible to get better at a skill without "practicing" it.  You just use it when you need to, and you'll eventually get better.  Need/want to kill a guy? Backstab him and finish the job. Yes, it's slow, but it does happen.  I played a magicker like this - I only cast the spells that I needed to cast, and then only when I needed them.  I wasn't the uberest of all ubers, but I had fun. The key is to spend your time in life/death situations where you can do this rather than warming a chair in a tavern.

I think the main complaint has been that, with code differences between rangers, warriors, and assassins, assassins have arguably come out of the deal with the short end of the stick overall.  The perfect generalists with a specialty that is so hotly contended most RPers wouldn't touch it. I also agree with the other poster who said that, if there are few very successful assassin-classed assassins, it might be a sign that the class is underpowered relative to other guilds.

No, it's not IC to volunteer to let someone attempt to backstab you. While the help file does not imply a measure of stealth the skill itself does - at least to me. Doing this against a dummy makes little IC sense, either. Animals don't share the same anatomy... so....

... unless backstab improves on a vastly faster curve than other guilds combat skills, assassins are pretty nerfed.  But, the guild also seems to attract the types of players who are more likely to powergame than to role play.  And that's just unfortunate.

I personally think it's Allanaki flame cheese to bs, flee, hide, sneak, e, bs, (wash rinse repeat). The code lets you do it, sure, but I don't feel that it represents stellar RP in most contexts.  Then again, if you're crazy enough to wander into a lawless zone, I guess it's best you figured out your own way to fend off the assassin who only really has one good skill to carry him.

Either way, I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death by the players - and maybe even by the staff.  I'm sure that staff members have even come up with great ways to change backstab.  I'm also sure there are reasons it hasn't been changed.

If staff opinion about it is as diverse as the player opinion on it, though, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't touch it with a twenty foot pole.