Karma and trust, How so?

[adrien]

all I can say is dont take this so seriously its just a game, enjoy. I have been enjoying this game on and off for a few years never gained karma becuase of my lack of playing and well every time I played I seem to be unlucky  and well I never did rp well when i played so rarely. but its a game run by good people who dont make mony off it (besides books i think). it is a free to play game. I say why complain about something that costs you nothing.


The imms are doing the best the can with out digging into there own personal lives to much, remeber, there NOT here to slave for our enjoyment but to creat a game that we can all enjoy.

[Cenghiz]

No topic can be locked before Cenghiz posts .
6 pages? Oh mad.. Forgive me, read only half of it.. All I want to say:

1. I earned 3.5 points of karma with unclanned characters. 1.5 points with a clanned one. The point is, you need to be enjoyable to be watched. If your ranger is preparing a plot which involves 6 characters and also a Whiran, you'll be watched. If you're a interesting character that everyone enjoys, you'll be pleased with the amount of animations/help the imms offer. I had one character who had one animation/series of echoes/other helps in my RP per day, because he was damn interesting and to be proud, I played it well.
But if you're a warrior who hunts duskhorns and gets back to the city, you'll not be watched often.

2. Asking for karma is not a call to have your brainz eaten. I asked for karma two times, once I earned 2, the other time I earned 1.5 karma points. Imms sometimes write good notes about you, but they don't always read the collection of all good notes, check your karma level and increase it. Asking for it nicely works.

3. If nothing but usual hassle's happening in a clan, the imms may decide to look elsewhere and watch others - possibly unclanned ones. I know it because I usually get notes from imms who are clan immortals.

4. If you're satisfied with your char, imms also are. For example, currently I don't think I'll ever get karma with the current char, seemingly I just couldn't grasp the mentality of the role, no matter how hard I try. So, if you think you're RPing poorly, don't hesitate to retire, and get a concept which would fit better for you. That's what I'll do after the current plots I'm involved in end, so I won't hurt anyone's RP by retiring.
So with your next more suitable character, imms will be happy - you'll be playing well. Other players will be happy - you'll be real. And you'll be happy, the role will suit you.

[EDITED TO ADD]
5. No no. Wanting karma is not a twinkish instinct. I want to try all the magicker roles, then maybe a mul ranger. Who may blame me for that? I remember writing a special app sounding like "This role will be very interesting to watch, I'll try to earn one more karma to play the guilds x and y in the end." which was approved. Wanting karma is not evil.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'm not terribly interested in getting into an argument about whether or not the karma system is any good or not (personal opinion: I think it works fine.)  I would, however, like to take a moment to offer a few pointers on the special app system.  I've seen a lot of posted opinions that special apps "take too long" or "I don't have the patience."  The thing is, you don't have to wait until you don't have a current character to send in that special app.  Got a great idea for a character?  Send in the app right away, and just keep on trucking with your current character.  If you play long-lived characters, you may end up with approval (or denial) before your current even dies!  If your characters die quickly, play through a few other concepts while you're waiting.  Don't torment yourself by not having a character and waiting for that special app to be approved, unless you have the patience to wait it out

Also, consider sponsored roles.  Want to play a half-giant, but don't have the karma?  Pick a clan you might want to play in (militia, Legion, noble or merchant House) and email the immortals and ask for a sponsored role.  Same thing goes for muls, although your best bet there is militia, Legion, Borsail, or Winrothol.  See if they've got room for a mul slave and would be willing to let you play.  For magickers, there's Oash, the Allanaki templarate, and maybe a few other options if you poke around on the website and check out (and think through) who might be more tolerant of magick than the vast majority of the population.  Yes, sponsored roles generally require you to work closely with staff.  If you feel you've been hurting in the "getting noticed" department, there's your opportunity right there.

[Maybe42or54]

Very good pointers, Jollygreen.

I really liked the ideas you had in your second Paragraph. (And it sounded like you read some of this thread, instead of just posting)

Though one point for the special application process.

Mention somewhere in the application, (hopefully near the beginning) that you are currently playing a pc or intend to play another pc during the application process. They may like to hear that.

[Akaramu]

2. Asking for karma is not a call to have your brainz eaten. I asked for karma two times, once I earned 2, the other time I earned 1.5 karma points. Imms sometimes write good notes about you, but they don't always read the collection of all good notes, check your karma level and increase it. Asking for it nicely works.

Last I knew, asking for karma was a good way to not get any, and wanting karma was a bad attitude to have. But different people have a different opinion on the matter. IMHO, the only people I ever heard say that karma does not matter were the ones who already had it, and were able to play almost any role they liked at any time.

AC: Some players enjoy magickers over anything else, others desert elves, again others mercenaries. In a perfect world, everyone would be happy with 0-karma roles at all times. But unfortunately there are some people who come up with one awesome magicker idea after the next. I was one of them. Magickers and leader roles intrigued me so much that I could hardly come up with ideas for anything else, let alone enjoy it after 1 and a half years of starting over and over again with mundane short lived nobodies.

And my last special app never got a response after 2 months and 2 reminders. I am getting the strong impression that the imm doing special apps gets pretty burned out on them after maybe half a year until someone else takes special apps over. The unfairness of the karma system would be no problem if special apps always got answered in under a month. But after one month of waiting, the excitement over a cool new idea just goes away.

The karma system is unfair. I dont believe that an european player with 3 hours of time during off-peak hours will get as much karma as the US timezone student with 10 hours a day, given they play equally well. If they are unlucky enough to only have short lived roles despite being careful, the chances diminish further.

I'm also not sure an imm will assign karma to a player they dislike, even if that player does well. If this is true, how could the system possibly be fair?

Karma and trust: Karma players are not necessarily more trustworthy than players with 0 karma. In all my time of playing, I have encountered one single player who did not even mention the tiniest little thing that could be considered IC information OOCly. Its all about who gets caught and who doesnt. But I'm not going to name names.


An idea to possibly improve the karma system: Instead of rewarding players sort of randomly (based on one well-played scene that happened to be observed, or maybe 6 months of running a leader) have karma assigned after certain periods of time IF there have been no observations / notes that the player did anything that made them less trustworthy.

Examples:

-During 50 days of time played, player A has been observed going on a twinking spree with 2 dwarf warrior characters. He has been warned and is doing better, but still has twinkish tendencies. No karma for player A.

-During 50 days of time played, player B (who was totally new to the mud) has mastered the emote system and obviously accumulated much knowledge about the world, which he takes into consideration realistically. However, player B sometimes walks through a storm at night (within the city) because he OOCly knows the way. 1 karma for player B.

Please note I'm referring to time spent actually playing the game, not 50 days of RL time passed.

[Malifaxis]

What I don't believe is how this discussion lasted so long.

I don't have uber karma.  I'm happy with my roles.  Can I come up with endless magicker concepts?  Hell yeah, magickers rule!  Can I come up with endless d-elf concepts?  Of course!  D-elves are the best ever!  Can I come up with endless noble concepts?  Naturally... nothing beats nobles!  Can I come up with endless twisted templar personalities?  Not even a challenge.  Can I come up with endless emotes for how grains of sand fly up my nose?  Yeah, cause I'm just that kinda guy.  I'm thrilled with the entire game.

Every single race on Armag is the best one.  Each class is the most powerful.  All of them are out of balance and twinky, and every damn role I play is sadly underpowered because I don't min max.  Every subclass is the most important.  Strength, of all the stats, is primary... because if you're strong, you can handle any obstacle.  Agility is by far the most important stat, as if you're quick, you can avoid any trouble.  Wisdom, more than any other stat, rules all, as if you can learn quickly you can survive.  And of course, of all the facets of a character, Endurance is the absolutely most important to have at a high rating, because without it, you don't survive.

If I haven't made my point, go shoot yourself.

[Kankman]

2. Asking for karma is not a call to have your brainz eaten. I asked for karma two times, once I earned 2, the other time I earned 1.5 karma points. Imms sometimes write good notes about you, but they don't always read the collection of all good notes, check your karma level and increase it. Asking for it nicely works.

Last I knew, asking for karma was a good way to not get any, and wanting karma was a bad attitude to have. But different people have a different opinion on the matter. IMHO, the only people I ever heard say that karma does not matter were the ones who already had it, and were able to play almost any role they liked at any time.

Asking for karma is definitely a good way to make sure you have not been overlooked. It has worked for me on two seperate occasions, just like Cenghiz.

I do think you're right, its likely mostly people who have karma saying it doesn't matter. Having karma is great if you want to play karma restricted roles. Not having karma sucks if you want to play karma restricted roles.

In the past, I've also had special apps that never had responses. Having dealt with Naiona as a clan imm, and also as a special application imm, I can say with very little doubt that it would take a power-outage to keep her from responding to your special app within a month.

For all those who doubt, read these words as truth:

A simple email, worded along the lines of my example below, WILL get you karma if you've been playing for a while and don't have any (recent) bad account notes.

Hi there, this is the player of account ______.

I've been playing Armageddon for ____ (amount of time) and to my knowledge haven't received any (recent)bad account notes. Or if I did, here is the explanation........

I've really been looking forward to playing ____ and was wondering if I might be able to get the karma to do so, rather than going the special app route.

Thanks for taking the time to consider it.

That will absolutely not get you in trouble. It may yield karma. It may yield a polite response as to why you're not getting any. DEFINITELY you will NOT get your brainz eaten.

[Anonymous]

Bleh. I don't have karma, and I don't care about getting any either. I could care less if I'm noticed as well, because that's not what I came here for. I came here to roleplay and have fun. I can do that with rangers and thugs or mercenaries. If my playstyle or emoting or "ICness" doesn't wow the imms Akaramu, that's just too bad.

I'm a latenight player like you though. Don't get bent out of shape. Life's a garden - Dig it.

[Barzalene]

Last I knew, asking for karma was a good way to not get any, and wanting karma was a bad attitude to have. But different people have a different opinion on the matter. IMHO, the only people I ever heard say that karma does not matter were the ones who already had it, and were able to play almost any role they liked at any time.

There is a huge difference between asking that your prior pc's be reveiwed and present rp watched as you've been playing for x amount of time, have an interest in a karma role and feel that you can handle it, and demanding karma because you feel you deserve it.

[Cuusardo]

Bleh. I don't have karma, and I don't care about getting any either. I could care less if I'm noticed as well, because that's not what I came here for. I came here to roleplay and have fun. I can do that with rangers and thugs or mercenaries. If my playstyle or emoting or "ICness" doesn't wow the imms Akaramu, that's just too bad.

I'm a latenight player like you though. Don't get bent out of shape. Life's a garden - Dig it.

I think more people should think this way.  But if this thread has proved anything, it's proved that there are some people who are more worried about karma than they should be, and it is taking away some of their enjoyment from the game.  Yes, the karma system is not perfect - nothing is perfect.  But as someone once told me "Karma is for wussies.  If you want to play one of those races or classes you don't have the karma for, special app it."

[Qetesh]

Last I knew, asking for karma was a good way to not get any, and wanting karma was a bad attitude to have. But different people have a different opinion on the matter. IMHO, the only people I ever heard say that karma does not matter were the ones who already had it, and were able to play almost any role they liked at any time.

Not at all, emailing the staff and asking them to have a look at your account and your current play, is just a heads up to us that you'd like to be reviewed. Staff is pretty happy to oblige and respond to these sorts of requests and start a dialogue of the outcome, weither it results in an award of karma or not.

And my last special app never got a response after 2 months and 2 reminders. I am getting the strong impression that the imm doing special apps gets pretty burned out on them after maybe half a year until someone else takes special apps over. The unfairness of the karma system would be no problem if special apps always got answered in under a month. But after one month of waiting, the excitement over a cool new idea just goes away.

I find this to be an odd and weird exception. Perhaps emails were lost or something. Even if we do reject a special app. Notice would be sent out.

The karma system is unfair. I dont believe that an european player with 3 hours of time during off-peak hours will get as much karma as the US timezone student with 10 hours a day, given they play equally well. If they are unlucky enough to only have short lived roles despite being careful, the chances diminish further.

It may be unlikely that you will be as watched, but a request for review could easily balance that.

I'm also not sure an imm will assign karma to a player they dislike, even if that player does well. If this is true, how could the system possibly be fair?

Well, it's not true. First, there are a lot of different imms, with -very- different views on players and clans and everything. Though if the player over all is a problem, no they might not garner karma, but if we are all in agrrement that a player is a problem.. Honestly, they usually are.

Something that we strive very hard for, is to not let personal feelings effect our dealings with players. I may not like what you do, but that does not mean that you are a bad roleplayer. I have seen Imm's that -hate- what a PC is doing, and in the end, award the player for playing a good character.

Karma and trust: Karma players are not necessarily more trustworthy than players with 0 karma. In all my time of playing, I have encountered one single player who did not even mention the tiniest little thing that could be considered IC information OOCly. Its all about who gets caught and who doesn't. But I'm not going to name names.

That's true in life as well. You may be an upstanding citizen by day and a serial killer by night, but if you never get caught you aren't going to jail.

We don't monitor things like AIM or IRC channel or anything like that. So the only way we have to know if people are doing bad things, is if they are doing them in clear OOC fashions Ic'ly. How else can we judge?

I don't see that last one as a fair statement even.  Sorry.

An idea to possibly improve the karma system: Instead of rewarding players sort of randomly (based on one well-played scene that happened to be observed, or maybe 6 months of running a leader) have karma assigned after certain periods of time IF there have been no observations / notes that the player did anything that made them less trustworthy.

I'd actually like this if it instead of instantly awarded karma, it just raises a priority review flag on the account if it shows no karma and no notes.

[Akaramu]

I don't have uber karma.  I'm happy with my roles.  Can I come up with endless magicker concepts?  Hell yeah, magickers rule!  Can I come up with endless d-elf concepts?  Of course!  D-elves are the best ever!  Can I come up with endless noble concepts?  Naturally... nothing beats nobles!  Can I come up with endless twisted templar personalities?  Not even a challenge.  Can I come up with endless emotes for how grains of sand fly up my nose?  Yeah, cause I'm just that kinda guy.  I'm thrilled with the entire game.

And after all those great ideas... you can actually play any of the roles you've developed concepts for, anytime you want? In that case you have all the karma / experience (in the case of noble and templar roles) you need. If I had not found a happy new home, I'd envy you.

And Qetesh, thank you for the kind reply. Appreciated.

Just one thing:

We don't monitor things like AIM or IRC channel or anything like that. So the only way we have to know if people are doing bad things, is if they are doing them in clear OOC fashions Ic'ly. How else can we judge?

I don't see that last one as a fair statement even.  Sorry.

I did not find this to be true, in my experience. I have not ever, not once, unless I was on drugs and forgot (I dont take drugs), let any OOC knowledge influence my characters. To the best of my knowledge I always paid close attention to this. But despite it being totally unrelated to my PC and her actions and reasoning (and I could have proven why), I have been scolded for OOC communication. It felt like in the end, it cost me a role which meant a lot to me.

My point is that when players 'report' someone else for OOC communication, I'd say at least half of the time it is the result of some infighting among players with the result of wanting to rat the other one out to hurt them. With nearly everyone communicating OOCly, the only ones you will 'catch' in this way (if there was no abuse visible ICly) are victims of player infighting. Because friends surely will not report on each other.

[Qetesh]

Personally, in my experience as a player, I do my very best to avoid speaking with my OOC friends, (and I have quite a few) About anything IC going on with my PC's and I prefer that they don't tell me about theirs.
I also (like most Imms) Keep the fact that I am an imm very quite, and most people I know, if they know, don't ask me about it.

All and all I preferred never to know who people play because I've always felt I don't do a very good job at separating the PC's from the players. Also once you know who someone plays and you get chatty, it almost always boils down to grips about who you like and don't like,  and who did this and that. It just ends up being bad.

You really never know what things you say to someone OOCly with "trust" will wind up in someone else's ear.  And what you may think is harmless and small or just discussed in light conversation, might end up ruining a plot for someone else you don't even talk to.

I don't know what your experience was Akaramu, but I will say, it takes a lot of Imms to agree on it and a good deal of review to confront a player with an OOC communication issue. It's never a willy nilly thing, because the last thing you want to do is wrongfully accuse someone of OOC issues. The players think we eat enough brains already. Yes, lost of people talk about playing, and players and plots.. But we can really only reprimand those who end up having it effect their play. And that might not be fair, but that's the way it is.

If you really want to avoid the chance of facing something like that, its best just not to talk about anything involving the game with other players. I dunno, talk about sports or something.

[Bestatte]

As for impatience with special apps, in regards to Jolly Green Giant's post....

I apped for a templar position once, while I was still playing a different character. That app was approved by the IMM responsible for templars in that location.

By the time my current PC had been killed, that IMM had left the staff and was replaced. The new IMM advertised that they were seeking people to fill a templar role. I sent an e-mail to that IMM letting them know that I was still interested in the role, and that it had already been approved.

The new IMM rejected the app - the main thrust of the rejection was - and I quote:

"Frankly, you displease me."

So I did -exactly- as you suggested JGG, and was even approved, but by the time I was actually able to fill the role, AND the role was available, it was staffed by someone who just plain didn't like me. I realize this isn't a karma situation, but the general principal still applies. I would rather earn the karma and know in advance that the staff trusts me for the role, than to special app only to discover that the IMM doesn't think I should have the role (no matter the reason).

[Anonymous]

"Frankly, you displease me."

Bestatte, you really need to let shit like that go. Don't take it personally. This is a game, and if you feel someone is "wronging" you, just let it go and kill with kindness. You can't be friends with everyone, but you can earn their respect. I personally feel that if an immortal has issues with
-any- player on an ooc level, they should not let it affect their motivations for roles and such. But who am I to say that; I'm not in charge of the game. I'm sure that over time, if there truly is animosity between a staffer and yourself, time will heal the wounds.

-fj

[Anonymous]

"Frankly, you displease me."  is pretty funny.  That had to be an off-handed remark or a small joke about how the app wasn't suitable.

[Kalden]

It was probably literal. On the bright side, the guy was upfront and honest about it instead of passive-aggressively beefing up the NPCs as they killed you.  :wink:

[Akaramu]

I don't know what your experience was Akaramu, but I will say, it takes a lot of Imms to agree on it and a good deal of review to confront a player with an OOC communication issue. It's never a willy nilly thing, because the last thing you want to do is wrongfully accuse someone of OOC issues. The players think we eat enough brains already. Yes, lost of people talk about playing, and players and plots.. But we can really only reprimand those who end up having it effect their play. And that might not be fair, but that's the way it is.

Actually, I think that is fair. Or would be, if the staff really only came down on those who, without a doubt, let those OOC issues affect their play.

It is not fair when a player is getting that stamp without being told why, and without a chance to explain why their doing was in fact perfectly IC, and what  the thought processes involved were. I requested a hearing on the matter and was turned down, which is still bugging me whenever I happen to remember it.

[Bestatte]

I have let it go, FJ. JGG's post reminded me of it, as one example to support the reason why special apps might frustrate players.

As for the incident itself, CW, no it wasn't a joke. I had asked for an explanation of the rejection note because I didn't understand it (that wasn't the only thing said). I was told that I am trusted to play responsibly, I am a good roleplayer, my OOC interactions with other players appear to be generally positive, and a few other things..all things that seem to me to be criteria for getting approved. And yet those were the reasons I was rejected, according to the explanation. I decided then that there was no point in pursuing it further because it was just gonna result in a staff member and a player both being pissed off.

It never worked itself out, but that staff member is no longer a staff member so it isn't an issue anymore. It -still- is one valid example of why I would prefer not to special app for something that I wasn't recruited for or asked to try. The point being, I would really hate to spend a month waiting - developing another character during the interim, worrying about whether or not I'd have to retire my current PC, only to find out that the staff member had no intention of approving my app in the first place. I come to play, not to wait for something special to come knocking at my door. So I play what I like to play, what I already have karma to play (most of my roles don't require any karma at all), and on occasion I'll send word to the staff that I might be interested in a special role IF they agree that I might be a good fit for it. Only then would I apply.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Plenty of special applications go through just fine, Bestatte.  Your bad experience sounds like it sucks, but shouldn't form the basis for someone else's willingness to give the system a try.

However, there you have it, folks.  Bestatte has decided to be the testimonial voice of the occasional human failing in the special application system.  In case we didn't know it before, we're now acutely aware that there's a possibility of anything involving human beings to have imperfections.  I sincerely hope that you don't use her lone example as the reason to never give special applications or sponsored roles a try for yourself; you're doing yourself a disfavor if you do.

[Bestatte]

I don't think there was any reason for you to be snide about it JGG. As I said twice already - it was an explanation of why *I* don't like special apping, which was in response to your saying you didn't understand why people wouldn't want to special app.

You asked, I answered. That's how discussions work.

*I* don't like special apping because *I* would prefer to have rejections sent to me withing 24 hours, rather than have to wait a whole month anticipating a possible acceptance, and then to be disappointed.

This doesn't only happen to me. EVERYONE who is rejected with a special app has to wait up to a month, or longer, to find out that they were rejected. I - me, myself, personally, speaking for no one else or on anyone else's behalf, with absolutely no semblance of authority whatseover..do not like waiting to be rejected.

Hope that clears things up for ya.

[Xygax]

Folks, this kind of bickering is what started (for me, at least) my more aggressive policy of board-moderation, and is causing me to regret that I didn't lock this thread about 3 pages ago.

Please.  Stop it.

-- X

[skeetdaddle]

Okay, to get back on topic, (hopefully), I think the karma system is pretty good. There are two things, (which have been previously mentioned), that would maybe help make the karma system even better. One thing is independent/clanless pcs getting watched a bit more. The other, Akaramu brought up. The idea that over time, with no bad account notes, karma be automatically given out. I'm not sure that's exactly the best way to do it, but there's something about that idea that I really like. Not only would it satisfy the players who do a good job roleplaying but for whatever reason aren't getting the attention they deserve, but it would also free up the immortals some from the obligation of having to watch players "do their thing." Not that it isn't fun to watch people mudsexing or anything.

[skeetdaddle]

AFTERTHOUGHT: Perhaps the answer lies somewhere between Akaramu and Qetesh's posts? I don't think people should just be handed karma because they've been playing forever.

[Bhagharva]

I find it interesting that most in this discussion that have cried the loudest are the specific people who have been given multiple chances to prove they can play responsibly and intelligently.  

TIME AND TIME again these specific players have shown they are not capable of handling even the most mundane roles. The key word in the karma system is trust. If I don't trust you, I'm not going to award karma. Its that simple. Trust is something earned and the majority of gripers on this thread are the ones that are basically demanding recognition. Well... I've watched you roleplay. It ain't all that. In fact, how well you RP is only part of the equation. Whats more, I can say that some of the gripers are actually CAPABLE of gaining really high karma, were they mature enough to stop and listen to what they are being encouraged to do by whichever imm is working with them. This isn't what happens. Impatience takes over and the griping begins.

An example..

Player A is given a chance to play a role and to prove they aren't going to act retarded anymore (since they had been up to that point). Player A does really well for a few weeks, then suddenly slips back into old habits. Even worse, the role given to player A is not being played appropriately and now not only is Player A confused, but they are setting an example to players B and C who they have been interacting with who now think that Player A's behavior is the norm for that particular role. So now all sorts of damage has to be repaired, and player A wonders why they aren't invited back.

We try to encourage all players, and I can say without a shadow of doubt that we've bent over backwards for some of the whiners in this thread, attempting to get them back on track. The failures they have had are obviously frustrating or they wouldn't be posting here with such vehemence.

Play responsibly.
Play maturely.
Stick to the role agreed on.
Do not demand anything, ask politely and do not badger anyone for replies.
Know your documentation and your game world.
Don't be a smartass. (This is a real stumblng block)