Karma and trust, How so?

[Maybe42or54]

The other thread with Vanth got me to thinking.

How are those 2 compared?
Explain to me.

Karma is simply a measure of trust that the staff members have in a
given player's:

  - Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced
    by playing roles 'realistically.'

  - Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which
    the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.

  - Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to
    show that they are really involved in the game world, and also
    enriching the game world for other players.

Ac, with your infinite wisdom. Explain to me the complexities of the Karma thing.

Seeing how those three are pretty damn easily attained.

[RunningMountain]

Damn easily attained... He said it people..

That is exactly the reason I dislike the karma system.. People attain it to easily, and the ones who might just deserve it are left in the dark, tell me I'm wrong.

-RM

[jstorrie]

Damn easily attained... He said it people..

That is exactly the reason I dislike the karma system.. People attain it to easily, and the ones who might just deserve it are left in the dark, tell me I'm wrong.

-RM

I think you are wrong.

If you really want to build up karma, play consistently well in a role that an Imm will keep an eye on. There are not so many people playing this game that you won't be noticed.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't think Karma should be levelled. I think it should be in attributes (sorta) where the imms say "We think you will be good for this area of Armageddon." and then give me access to the class/guild/whatever.

[Gaare]

Damn easily attained... He said it people..

That is exactly the reason I dislike the karma system.. People attain it to easily, and the ones who might just deserve it are left in the dark, tell me I'm wrong.

-RM

Well, good point! I know I deserve more Karma heh..   Anyway, as it is told before, Karma is just for making things easier for IMMs. If you want a role, it takes a few weeks at most to recieve result of a special application.

[waroth]

I believe it has also been mentioned that if you feel you deserve karma, you can e-mail the mud and request a review of your account.  I recieved a raise by doing just that myself once, so I am a testiment that it works.  Just ask nicely.

[RunningMountain]

Okay, to reply to some of the answers so far.

Some people don't ask nicely, they just want to play the game, and in fact probably do not care about karma at all, therefore they play for the enjoyment of themselves and others.  To tell people to:
Go try and get it" "
"Go play a role that you know imms will watch"
"E-mail the imms and ask for a review."

These sorts of things aren't what you should have to do to be noticed and watched, even if you play loners all the time.  By my count per wizlist Armageddon has 4 overlords, 9 highlords, and 14 Storytellers, so we have a total of 27 staff right now, that may or may not be active, but that is according to the wizlist today.  In my opinion that is a damn lot of immortals to watch people's roleplay, and to make decisions on whether they can be "trusted" to play a certain role or not.  The problem? They are all too busy with their little high-fantasy plots that involve about 4 players in their clan, and that's all they care about. That is just my opinion on why a lot of people get overlooked.

Karma to me is just an excuse to reward certain players who have appeased and played with certain imms, if this wasn't true, then the twenty or so players I believe deserve it would have it.  It's not complicated, it's just that simple to me, if someone deserves it, they should get it, but there a lot of good players whom do not care for it and these are the ones that get overlooked. Hence making the system quite flawed, and needing to be changed.

-RM

[Anonymous]

Yeah, Heaven forbid a player have to actually email the staff to ask for a review of their karma options.  It's an outrage.

[RunningMountain]

That's not how I mean you to take it CRW, I mean that some people prefer to just play, not ask for reviews of how they are playing or if they deserve karma, hence I said these types of people do not necessarily care about it.  Get it?

-RM

[Marc]

*stuff*

That's a load of crap.

27 imms on staff you say?  How many of those are on at any particular time?

Lets break it down:  Call it three major timezones:  Australian/East, US, Europe/Eastern Europe.  Us gets the bulk of it, but lets say:


19 US staff
4 Euro
4 Asia


Now lets work in those old fogies who exclusively deal with code, ginka, website etc (Morgenes, Tiernan, Tenebrius, Brixus, Saikun, and the guy you DONT want involved with your character, Nessalin):

I think most of those guys are US so now you're at:

13 US
4 Euro
4 Asia

Now take into account that these imms also have RL responsibilities (work, school, family) so lets say they're only able to spend 8 hours a day focused entirely on the mud every OTHER day (8P)

6 1/2  US staff
2 Euro
2 Asia

Not even taking into account leaves of absenses, you're not talking about that many active imms for every player.  At the best of times, 1 for every 10 pcs.

Now consider most if not all of these imms have clan responsibilities.  You're probably right when you guess they're going to focus their attention on pcs in their clans.  Maybe thats what you mean by high-fantasy.

That said, characters that survive AND are well played will receive karma.  You can have the best character concept, the most original and descriptive emotes, an absolute mastery of the ~@#%^'s and be as realistic as one can.  If your character is dead in a couple of days, chances are you wont see shit.  On the flip side if you live for a year, but don't do anything more than hunt/craft emoteless or stare forward at the bar, you probably wont get any karma either.

Best way to get karma?  Communicate with your imm(s).
Next best is play well and play long.  For all their talk, the staff isn't clairvoyant.

[flurry]

With as many players as there are, it's not that surprising that some get overlooked from time to time.  Especially those that play unclanned characters.   It's not a perfect system but it doesn't seem like it's that bad either.  Given the choice between making minor fixes and scrapping it and replacing with a different system, I'd prefer the former.  Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I heard of a great alternative suggestion.   Couldn't hurt to "idea" it if anyone had one of those.

[aruna]

Some people don't ask nicely, they just want to play the game, and in fact probably do not care about karma at all, therefore they play for the enjoyment of themselves and others. To tell people to:
"Go try and get it."
"Go play a role that you know imms will watch."
"E-mail the imms and ask for a review."

These sorts of things aren't what you should have to do to be noticed and watched, even if you play loners all the time.

What should you have to do to get karma/be noticed? You say that karma is attained too easily, and yet you argue that it should be easier. I may be naive, but I can't think of any other way (at least for the most part) that players get karma other than the ways listed above, except playing independents and being lucky enough to catch the attention of the imms.  Those players that attained their "so easily gotten karma" did it through one of these methods, regardless of whether or not that was their intention/goal.

We're all here to play the game, RunningMountain. Some of us care about the karma, some of us don't. Those that do will go looking for it, and for those that don't (whom you seem to be pleading your case for) there isn't a problem.

[Thoughtful Kank]

I think some of what RM said is true, though it was put too cynically for my taste. Unclanned roles simply don't get noticed as much as clanned ones, but I am hoping the non-affiliated imms can begin to change that. However, saying that the imms are worried about their clans, and the players within those clans as a criticism makes no sense to me. That's their job. Certain clanned roles really need their imms involved or it sucks. So, I put my hope in the unclanned imms to snoop their little hearts out, comment, and provide karma where needed. The challenge being that I'm guessing it's much trickier for the unclanned imms to stay on top of all the unclanned players, versus a clanned imm, worrying about a controlled number of players. But maybe I'm wrong about that... I don't know the ratios.

I also agree that sometimes asking for a review can help. If that's too much trouble, stick with what you got. The non-karma guilds and races are better anyway.

[Angela Christine]

Some people don't ask nicely, they just want to play the game, and in fact probably do not care about karma at all, therefore they play for the enjoyment of themselves and others.

I don't see the problem.  If you want to just play the game, just play the game. If you don't want to communicate with staff, just play the game.  If you don't care about karma, just play the game.  If you want to have sorcerer karma in 8 years, just play the game.

Karma is over-rated.  The best roles require 0 karma.  You can absolutely have a blast with the regular races and classes.  Some people love playing desert elves, some people love playing elementalists, but a lot of people that have karma still play 0 karma characters.  I have a little karma, but probably more than 1/2 of my characters are still just regular joes.  The game is fully playable without karma.  

If you don't want to deal with getting karma, you don't have to, it will come to you sooner or later.  If you want to get karma faster, there are some good tips in this thread to help you.


Angela Christine

[RunningMountain]

I understand all of what you are trying to say, I am just adding my opinion, and I am always right.  There is no problem for me AC, I'm just one of the mundane and I like it that way.  I am speaking for others.

-RM

[bloodfromstone]

The game is free. Imm positions are volunteer. There is no incentive to take time from their lives to work on, improve, and run the game except for the love of it. If it is watching certain plotlines (or whatever) that keeps them here, keeping the MUD going, then that's fine by me. If the alternative isn't enjoyable for the staff, then we'd be without a staff. I'd much rather have 0 karma than no one moderating the place.

[Ktavialt]

I don't believe the karma system is unfair. Immortals cannot be
everywhere at once so give them a little break. You can also
special app characters anyways, and I've never had a special
app not be approved, though I may just be lucky (2 total). If
they handed out karma like hotcakes though then we'd have a
pile of half-giant/desert-elf/magickers/psionicists, I'm sure the
want to limit people to mundane classes is part of it, however
anyone who really wants to play something abnormal can special
app it. I'm sure they realize some people who are good for a
particular role don't get karma when an occasional one who is
bad for it does.

Also, for the record I received my first karma when being a
kadius hunter and emoting skinning well (I think that's what got
them to recognize me) and second karma because I had well
over forty-six characters (most lived an hour or two, but got
much better later on) and I special app'd a particular mage that
got kinda well known and (I think) kinda contributed well to the
game's environment.

In summary, it isn't a perfect system but it's the best we got, and
there are always special applications.

- Ktavialt

[Yokunama]

Karma is over-rated.  The best roles require 0 karma.

Angela Christine

That is true.

[Cale_Knight]

I agree that the idea of "trust" is kind of nebulous when it comes to rewards, but as people have said, there's ways around it if you want to play that mul sorcerer.

The player/staff interaction on Armageddon is what sets it apart from every game (MUD or not) that I've ever played. If you as a player aren't willing to communicate with the staff on any given issue, even regarding special apps/your karma/whatever, you're ignoring a truly unique aspect of this game.

[adgohan]

I don't post often, but I wanted to share with all of you a message about karma a staff member told me once, in regards to getting it:

"People who are able to release the RL beliefs and embrace Zalanthian beliefs while playing a consistent character get the most karma."

And that's all there really is. I think that quote is so good I don't even want to tarnish it with an explanation.

[RunningMountain]

I don't post often, but I wanted to share with all of you a message about karma a staff member told me once, in regards to getting it:

"People who are able to release the RL beliefs and embrace Zalanthian beliefs while playing a consistent character get the most karma."

And that's all there really is. I think that quote is so good I don't even want to tarnish it with an explanation.

I know players that can do that.  Oddly enough they have 0 karma because they can't be "trusted", you're living in a fantasy world.

-RM

[waroth]

Not to sound like a brownnoser, but how does anyone who doesn't stand over another player every minute they play actually know whether they are trustworthy and good roleplayers?  How do you not know while you are roleplaying with them they do wonderful, but when they walk off they go and twink their skills up?  Maybe they do something that you don't see and an Imm does and THAT is why they have 0 karma?  It took me a good year to get a single point, if not just over a year and I didn't twink and I thought I RP'd well.  Sometimes it takes time to gain any.  Maybe it's just us people with karma arm in fact a group of people who shower the Imms with money and gifts so we can get karma while all the good roleplayers are left with 0?  Uhm...no.

[runningwithscissors]

The only reason karma might be considered unfair, in my opinion, is the fact that you have to be watched by the staff over time to attain it. This can become a bit tough for players like myself who are on off-peak hours. I myself am still very new to the game, so I don't particularly understand what all the fuss is with "karma" and the like. New roles might be fun, but I really think I would love this game no less if I never received one bit of karma. The mundane roles are the most enjoyable for me. Those are the ones which really help immerse the player into a desert planet full of intrigue and death, not some flashy magicker or whatever those karma classes/guilds/races are.

I'm sure you are a good player RunningMountain. Perhaps even a great one. But don't let your observations of a few players justify you're current position. Perhaps the karma system is unbalanced, but at least this game offers a "reward" system of sorts. I think that's a pretty nice gesture myself. As for wether or not these players you know deserve karma, I think only playtime will tell. And perhaps the keen eye of a high-ranking staff member. :wink:

[moab]

The problem? They are all too busy with their little high-fantasy plots that involve about 4 players in their clan, and that's all they care about. That is just my opinion on why a lot of people get overlooked.

You exaggerate and you seem to need experience running a clan from the immortal side.
If someone wants to get noticed, they can raise their hand.  If not, then you have no argument.

Karma to me is just an excuse to reward certain players who have appeased and played with certain imms, if this wasn't true, then the twenty or so players I believe deserve it would have it.  

In the past (like eight years ago) I would have agreed with you, bro.  I once had a character that was ressed like eight times.  However, this is certainly not the way it works today.  

Imms, like the rest of us,  probably have certain favorite people they feel can really bring life to the game.  They play with these folks and may reward them karma for jobs well done (as anyone is rewarded when their work is noticed).

However, doing nothing to get noticed will get you exactly - nothing.

...there a lot of good players whom do not care for it and these are the ones that get overlooked. Hence making the system quite flawed, and needing to be changed.

If they don't care for it, then you have no argument.  If they don't want it, they don't get it and no one is the worse for it.  If they want it, ask for it.  That's all.  Karma is as easily granted as it is taken away.  I'm sure any Imm who trusts someone with one additional karma point will have no problem taking it away if their trust ends up being misplaced.

Hence, the system is certainly not flawed but actually works quite well.  

Additionally - since special applications are the offer freedom from the wheel of karma, one could argue that the need for a karma system at all is unncessary because anyone can play anything at any given time and karma then simply is relegated to the role of an admin aid.

Frankly, I don't see that you have a reasonable argument - no offense.

[Qetesh]

I like the Karma system, A –lot-, it's an excellent way to reward players and also keep the ratios of race and guild to the way we think it should be in the world.

It also insures that the people who can do the most damage to the game world are the most responsible, and when people come into contact with those less abundant others, they know they are in for a good Rp experience.

Now as for how to get Karma. Really, what do you want from us? 27 Imms  (if that's even correct) for a player base of well over 200 people? I don't think it's unreasonable that we ask if you are looking to garner Karma that you request we have a look at you.  Hell, we even made a review flag for it to make it easy for you.

No we can't look at everyone all the time. And yes, there are plenty of great RP'er that get missed if they don't ask about it.  We do make the effort to look at people that are not clanned, but yes, we will always look at our clanned players more, mostly because those are our assigned players, they are our responsibility.

Now as for what will give you Karma, that's simple. Firstly, quality Rp, time and time again, a lack of bad account notes, leadership roles (Yes.. that's right, leadership roles. Because they are hard and take time, detection and help involve players. And before you jump on this one RM, I don't just mean ordinary Nobles, Merchants, Templars. I mean anyone that takes initiative and keeps other players motivated and keeps things going.) Being helpful (in general).  

Basic stuff. You don't need to kiss Imm ass to get karma. You just need to play the game properly, and yes, I am very sorry, sometimes you need to be asked to be noticed.

And also, for those of you who have bad account notes. It's not impossible to regain staff trust and gain Karma, though I will say it's not easy.  If you are requesting Karma and you have notes a mile long don't expect to play a few good PC's and get instant redemption, it might take a while.

But again, its not impossible by any mark. Hell, I have a couple bad account notes.   :wink: