Karma and trust, How so?

[jstorrie]

Some people don't ask nicely, they just want to play the game, and in fact probably do not care about karma at all, therefore they play for the enjoyment of themselves and others.  To tell people to:
Go try and get it" "
"Go play a role that you know imms will watch"
"E-mail the imms and ask for a review."

These sorts of things aren't what you should have to do to be noticed and watched, even if you play loners all the time.  By my count per wizlist Armageddon has 4 overlords, 9 highlords, and 14 Storytellers, so we have a total of 27 staff right now, that may or may not be active, but that is according to the wizlist today. etc., etc.

Let me rephrase - no. Let me say what I said again but with a bold tag for emphasis. If you really want to build up karma, play consistently well in a role that an Imm will keep an eye on. If it bothers you that much then that is what I suggest.

Karma isn't the point of Armageddon, and while it may give you a nice feeling to build it up, it shouldn't be your end goal. If you really, really can't have fun without being able to play Nilazis without special apps, then follow my suggestion.

Do I think the system is flawed? No. If building up karma was the point of the game, then it would be bad that some roles - the roles that involve more frequent interaction with or scrutiny from immortals - will by their very nature prove more effective in terms of convincing those very same immortals that you are a responsible player. But that's not the point of the game. So if you're really bothered about your karma level, you can follow some of the suggestions in this thread. But the absolute very best suggestion? Just chill. It isn't really something to get worked up about.

[jmordetsky]

I have Karma. To my knowledge I've not abused it.

I've had a Karma Race/Class completely abused on me.

To be fair, if you think someone abused Karma, log it and email the mud.

If you think you deserve Karma, email the mud.

It's a pretty simple system. I personally don't see any problems.

I think the plot/conflict system needs alot more attention then the karma system does. It's not perfect, I've been twink killed by templars, muls, half-giants, sorcs.....but it works well. Better then any other mud period.

This is also comming from what could easily be the whiniest player of all time. So, dude, if I don't have a problem with Karma, no one should.

[Bestatte]

Sarajc's doppleganger hath spoken.

And I'll challenge you to the title of whiniest player, Jmordesky. Trade account notes, hmmmmmm?

[Anonymous]

So someone can make a dwarven warrior that can rip mekillots to shreds after he practices at getting strong, but can't have a mul because they are too powerful to begin with..  I'll just stop right here, I think I am going to just stop posting again too because some of the answers I get here are just pointless to read.

-RM

[Xygax]

So someone can make a dwarven warrior that can rip mekillots to shreds after he practices at getting strong, but can't have a mul because they are too powerful to begin with..  I'll just stop right here, I think I am going to just stop posting again too because some of the answers I get here are just pointless to read.

-RM

If you think dwarves even remotely compare to the raw brute potential of a mul, you're downright mistaken.

But more than that, the role is a difficult one to play -- partly because of the remarkable and difficult-to-control power, but also because of the half-breed mentality that so many half-elven players get wrong.  Yes, various magicker classes requiring less karma than muls might have more potential for destruction and mayhem, but mayhem isn't the only measure of power or the difficulty of a role.

-- X

[Maybe42or54]

Yes Xygax, every class can do damage in different ways. And you pointed out a very valuable point to me which i missed in my days and days of thought provoking days at work. Though I believe I shouldn't have to play magicker before I play a mul, you pointed out something.

Half-breeds.

The elf version of the Mul.

I will indeed play those now with humans and thank you Xygax for your semi-informing posts. Thank you for actually answering my questions with just more than a "no". Even if it wasn't my question.

(deleted blurb about magickers)

See how nice it is to not lock the threads on your first post? J/k

[Xygax]

Maybe42or54:  The problem is that your attitude throughout this thread doesn't strike me as one conducive to earning karma.  You are spending too much time thinking about karma.  We don't wander around looking for people who seem to be actively working for karma and reward them with it.  We look for people whose character feel "right", whose activities make sense, who do not have an adversarial relationship with their clan staff or others, and who actively contribute to the world during the time they're logged in (and maybe even when they're not, via submissions, consistent interaction with their staff through e-mail, etc.).

None of this means you need to be in a clan.  None of this means you need to be logged in 24/7.  None of this means you need to play for seven years to get mul-karma.

The best way to get to this is to -enjoy- the game.  Enjoy the characters you're playing now and don't focus your every waking effort on convincing some staff-member to give you karma.  When you manage this, the karma will come easily.

Really, it will.

-- X

[Thoughtful Kank]

The best way to get to this is to -enjoy- the game. Enjoy the characters you're playing now and don't focus your every waking effort on convincing some staff-member to give you karma. When you manage this, the karma will come easily.

Really, it will.

If you're in a role that imms notice. Saying have fun, it will be noticed is not accurate (and I utterly respect Xygax). That's why I'm hoping the unaffilated imms can offer what guilded imms offer, insofar as exposure, eventually.

The damage potential for the high level karma classes/races warrants careful scrutiny over a player's history, habits and play style before handing out such a dangerous weapon. Adopting a system to let players "play what they wanted" is contrary to the entire purpose of karma.

Um. What did your last many-day character die to? Did you understand why? (Before anyone reacts to my vocabulary, if those statistics were not legit and/or desired, why are they provided?)

In short, the bottom line, from my perspective is: Above all, have fun, and damn karma -- wait! Isn't that just what a brilliant, hard-working, thankless imm said earlier? Yes. Now, if you want karma - join a clanned group, and/or a group that can't be ignored. Forgive my cynicism. If anyone can prove me wrong, I'm open to other perspectives.

Otherwise shall we agree that karma is some super secret, intuitive, you either are worthy or not, the imms know but you don't, sort of stat, that isn't a reward, nor a privilage, it simply IS. IS you is, or IS you ain't?

The broke-ass, human bynner is here scoffing at you.

[Anonymous]

Upon my return to the game after many years of not playing, my second pc earned me HG karma. I hadn't played under the karma system before.

That being said, I've been pk'd by those using karma classes/races who were abusing code, ignoring npcs and vnpcs and I'm sure that if I did any of those things since I'd have lost my karma. Instead, I've earned more since and ran into lots of players who do very well with the karma they've earned. I've also played with one of your pcs before Maybe and I thought that you were too focused on power rather than rp. Most likely this is the reason behind your apps being denied but I'm not an imm so I can't be certain.

I don't believe myself to be the authority on rp but I work to better myself constantly. I think that the karma system is fine the way it is and you need to get your focus off getting karma and onto bettering your roleplay. I'm not saying that you're a bad roleplayer but that you might want to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. We all have room for improvement and those that recognize that will eventually get those options.

I want to add that I did enjoy the time that I interacted with at least one of your pcs and you have the potential to be one of the best if you can just get past this attitude about the karma system. I might be taking it the wrong way though and if I am I'm sorry.

Mistakes with giving out karma can disrupt things for the playerbase.
I personally like the attitude as far as karma goes.

You have to learn how to crawl before you can walk...you have to learn how to walk before you can fly.

[jstorrie]

So someone can make a dwarven warrior that can rip mekillots to shreds after he practices at getting strong, but can't have a mul because they are too powerful to begin with..  I'll just stop right here, I think I am going to just stop posting again too because some of the answers I get here are just pointless to read.

-RM

RM, maybe I should add two more suggestions. One, try not to be so rude and confrontational with other players of the game and its caretakers. And two, maybe cut down on the 'hey, join my PC family and make sure you play something that has wagoncrafting because I need that' kind of stuff.

[Qetesh]

I'm gonna ask you guys to cool it with the personal jabs and take that to the PM's so we can keep the topic on track.

[Mean_Old_Bastard]

/me kicks Qetesh in the shin
(you probally wouldn't have answered PMs, and I don't jab)


Anyways...this thread. It slightly bothers me, I see it as potentially insulting to some imms and the system. I think, you don't need karma and it doesn't matter. As many have said 0 karma roles are the best, afterall.

I could talk and give my opinion, and I will, but I'm only echoing sentiments.

Special apps.

Karma is just for if an imm who how been watching you decideds they want you to have that.Imms dont have to be watching you.

I submitted one special app which was denied. No more so far. Although I might just resubmit that same one now that a little account comment business has been cleared up.

A long time ago after a minor disaggrement with an imm, I decied 'screw the immz!' and that I'm not going to roleplay for them. Really, the imm was the shit, very nice, and very (many things). Also right, as part of my argumet was 'whoops' but that a derail no worht going onto.
As I was saying...-don't- play for the imms. -don't- play for karma. Thats no fun.

Seconding though, the immz we have are the shit.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If truth be told, I would really almost rather see the Karma system scrapped and any class and race other than the mundane acheivable only through special app.

I know it is somewhat ... harsh? but I think it would be the best system.

[Ghost]

A little derailment...

If truth be told, I would really almost rather see the Karma system scrapped and any class and race other than the mundane acheivable only through special app.

I also agree to this statement.  To me, this would make things much easier.  Though we would need more than one imm to look for special applications then.

[Bestatte]

I think the karma system works just fine, generally.

I don't think I should've gotten my first 2 points so close together during my first character. Even if they thought I was some kind of RP genius, I think a little time to see how well I handle the responsibility of playing would've been more appropriate. On the other hand, when I had a point docked for my own stupidity on the GDB, I felt it should've been returned at some point during the last year, especially since it was noted in my account notes that I had apologized for the stupidity, -and- especially since I wasn't ever notified that I had been docked a point.

HOWEVER

I still say it works fine. If I really want that point back badly enough, the staff knows I have a big enough "mouth" (textually speaking) to ask for it. Thing is, the only "karma-class" type characters I have any real interest in playing (other than desert elf which pretty much anyone can get in hardly any time at all), are classes much higher than the 1 point I got docked. They would require a special app, and I don't do special apps unless the role is a staff-recruited one. That's just me, and it's because I am too impatient to wait for someone to approve/reject a special app some time in the next month. That's my limitation, self-imposed, and no way would I ever fault the karma system or the staff for that.

There's also something folks might not be understanding, or maybe it hasn't been clearly noted yet (I haven't read every response, sorry):

If you want to play a karma character, and don't have the karma:

If you submit a request to play that type of character, you can ask in the same note, for the staff to please keep an eye out on your roleplay in advance of approving/rejecting your request. Chances are that's what they'll do anyway, unless they already have been watching all along.

Sometimes people get overlooked, and that's a shame because I'm sure there are some stellar RPers who deserve the karma and don't have it. But for those who -want- that karma, and deserve it - a polite request to the staff to watch you for awhile (and why you want them to watch) is probably all it takes to get exactly what you're asking for.

If you don't get it then, the staff will explain why, and even that can be helpful to improve your RP -and- their perception of how well you can handle the responsibility for a future role of the type you want.

[Maybe42or54]

Maybe42or54:  The problem is that your attitude throughout this thread doesn't strike me as one conducive to earning karma.  You are spending too much time thinking about karma.

-- X

I actually could care less about the majority of Karma. It is that level 7 I want, not that 1-6, or 8 for that matter. I don't even want 7. I want the Mul.

I don't really do something I don't enjoy and call it a game, but seeing as how you guys, the imms, want me to play the roles I don't personally want, then you are forcing me to be worried, or "anxious", about Karma.  Get my point?

I personally love the roles I play, and that is why I play them. The ones I don't play, don't sound entertaining to me. The ones I havn't played yet, are, well, I havn't played them yet.

As for Karma coming easily, sure. I don't believe you, but sure.

And Bestatte, That actually made sense and applied to Running Mountain's comments. Thank you for actually pointing something out.

[waroth]

I am going to reply once more.  Maybe42, try joining a house, or turning your review flag on to get someone to observe your RP for awhile and they may overlook the previous suggestion to play a magicker.  I will almost bet they will if you do well in a role. whether you be a plain commoner or not.  They just need to observe your play awhile.  I know this for a fact as I had zero karma when I 'special app'd' for a mul in the T'Zai Byn and got accepted  by Tlaloc.  Got my first two points of karma while playing that role too as that character lived around six RL months.  Just give it time, play the game for awhile with the review flag on and then apply once more.  Sorry for the derailment.  Good luck Maybe42!

[Anonymous]

I had six karma before I ever played a karma role. You don't have to play one karma role to get another, you have to play the roles you do have consistantly, and responsably.

It think it's ok to want something and to vocally ask for it, but I would suggest that how you ask for it will have a great affect on whether or not you get it. My guess is that if you attack the system in a public forum the system is more likely to become defensive than yeilding. There is something to be said for exercising a bit of diplomacy.

Finally, as someone who recently played their first mul, I can tell you, it is not an easy role. I may have the karma to play one, but it's not a role I'll be wrestling with again soon.

[Cuusardo]

Armageddon is not about gaining karma.  Armageddon is about roleplaying and having fun.  It seems like some people aren't seeing the forest for the trees here.

[Maybe42or54]

Noone is saying it is, Cuusardo. Since my questions have been answered and people have gone into their own little world-style ranting of which it doesn't seem to be mentioned at all, I am done. Thank you Bestatte, Xygax, and the other ones I forgot for being helpful and providing insight even if it took a few pages to get you there.

[Halaster]

I don't mean to derail, but I do want to clear a slight misconception that was posted in this thread.  Someone said they had hopes that the Unafilliated Characters staff would be out there watching the unclanned characters and potentially awarding karma and all that.

That's not exactly our focus.  While we may be a bit more prone to doing so because of our roles, that's not what our intention is.  Our intention is to be a resource to players who's PC is not in a clan.  PC's in a clan have someone on staff they can communicate with should they need to.  We are serving that same role for unclanned PC's, if you want to communicate with us.

So, while there may be a better chance for a non-clanned PC getting noticed because of the Unafilliated Characters staff, don't be confused and think that's our "job".  We expect that you'll contact us first, in most situations.  Otherwise, you may never hear a peep from us.

I agree, too, that it's rather silly to lament about staff members who run plots and do things for their clan folks.  Hello.. that's their job.  They're doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing when they do that.

As to whether or not we show favortism?  In a way yes, in a way no.  We do try and be as impartial as we can and not overlook people.  But let's face reality, too:  If you're a jerk and have an attitude like RunningMountain, you can count on us not wanting to interact with you and leaving you out of things, because your attitude doesn't make us really want to (until you start paying me a good salary).

[Krath]

If truth be told, I would really almost rather see the Karma system scrapped and any class and race other than the mundane acheivable only through special app.

I know it is somewhat ... harsh? but I think it would be the best system.

I agree with this 100%....However, My thoughts....

If you dont have the Karma, Special app. There is a reason you do not have it, you are
not trusted by the staff. I think you all forget, it is a privledge to play here, not a right.
Trust is earned not given.

[Anarchy]

Im an Australian player, and i have never had a problem with Karma. Never had a problem with being given special roles, heck i even got invited to play a special role. Never felt ignored or overlooked. The staff do a bang up job and frankly, even if i thought they were a useless  pack of fussy no-nose chimps i do not have the right to complain. The staff can do what they want, just be glad they made the choice to be as fair as humanly possible.

[wizturbo]

I feel compelled to chime in.

In my moderate tenure on this mud, I've gotten some karma, and the greatest piece of advice I can offer on how to prove your mature and responsible is to get involved in a clan in a leadership capacity, preferrably working your way up from the bottom up.  

This shows the clan immortals the slow and steady development of your character, and then when you get into a position of leadership, how you the player are capable of handling the power and responsibilty of those roles on a day to day basis.

The only other advice I'd offer is use the special application system, but dont' be too ambitious with your requests. To clarify what I mean by this, stick to karma roles within the 1-4 karma levels for a while before requesting anything from the 5-8.  The 5-8 levels have both more potential for abuse, and more challenging roleplay than the former 4 karma tiers in my opinion.  So as Vanth put it, ask to play with a machine gun before you ask to play with the tactical nuclear weapons :-)

[Bedhead]

If an Imm were to bar me from access to my favorite race or class forever, I'd still love this game.   Hell, if I was barred from every race and class but one this game would be great.  

If your enjoyment of the game is suffering so severely by being made to wait for access to just one race... I think you may be quite dissappointed when you do finally get a mul. Disclaimer:  I've never played a mul, and therefore this is pure speculation.  Playing a mul may be a purely orgasmic experience for all I know.  My favorite mul was old and yellow and made me want to wet myself most of the time.

Though, I always believe in offering a solution when possible, so here's what I think:  Make a dwarf with the focus of becoming a mul.

All problems are instantly solved.  You get to play the part of a mul, though with slightly gimped stats which will put the Imms at ease knowing that you won't lay waste to villages the next time there are no staff on.