Karma and trust, How so?

[Maybe42or54]

Karma is over-rated.  The best roles require 0 karma.

Angela Christine

That is right. Very right. I don't want to play anything between 0 karma and a mul, 7 karma.

Hell. I only want to play a mul and humans, maybe an elf or two, just toss in a half-breed.

Now, as I was told by an Imm. They want me to play magickers and pretty much everything between 0 and 7, or I can't play 7.


Now, Ac, Give me the frank talk about how Karma and trust works together, please?

[LoD]

Karma is a sensitive subject.  

Karma is one of the only methods by which we perceive we're being judged as players.  The problem is with a player's percetion.  Many players think of karma as a reward.  They believe that "good" RP will earn them karma, and if they don't see these special classes available during character creation, that they've somehow not made the cut.

Imms may see karma as a means to control the amount of one guild's presence in the game, as well as a management tool to support players they feel would do well playing a karma required race/class.

One of the hardest things to do is judge yourself correctly.  You're biased.  You are your best and worst friend.  I know that there were many stages of my time playing Armageddon that I thought my actions were perfectly justified and that my RP was at a high level.  Actions which I now see as being immature and short sighted.

More than good emotes, interaction, communication and role playing, I think that the Imms distribute karma to players they feel have demonstrated the patience and maturity to handle the potential for power that comes along with karma classes/races.  For example:

Muls and Half-Giants have the power to do some real damage to the existing playerbase from the moment they are created.  For no other reason than their strength alone, there must be an assurance on the side of the player's history that the position won't be abused.  If the player has a tendency to ignore realistic gameplay, grow impatient with clan and role restrictions or constantly demonstrate the desire to player kill across several characters, then the Imm Staff may be uncomfortable giving them access to the karma classes/races even if they do maintain a reasonably high level of RP when interacting with the world.

One has to recognize that many of these karma classes/races come with no small amount of power, and that power is greater than your ego.  Karma is not about you.  It is about your place within a dynamic world of other players and whether an Immortal has had the chance to properly review your RP prior to inserting such a character to that mix.

I would highly suggest your friends follow the advice of the other posters and email the MUD account to be reviewed, special app for a karma race/guild for the chance to be watched more closely and follow some of the conventions in place to meet their goals.  Chances are that you will be allowed to play or told the reason why you cannot, or perhaps a suggestion as to what they'd like to see you accomplish first.

Communicate with the Imm(s).  Be polite.  Understand that there may be work you will have to do to make up for past wrongdoings and that the single best road to recovery is honesty, humility and the willingness to listen to constructive criticism.  And hopefully your road will soon bear the sign, "Karma, Population: You."

-LoD

[Xygax]

This issue has come up a number of times.  Here are some threads with good posts about the subject of karma:

Look for Sanvean's post in this one

Halaster's thoughts here are good

Yet another thread about karma

IC and OOC Trust are discussed here, intermixed with some thoughts on karma.

Rindan's first post here is interesting and well thought-out

Here's a post I found when I climbed into the way-back machine....  back when anyone could post in Ask the Staff

-- X

[Larrath]

Karma is over-rated.  The best roles require 0 karma.

Angela Christine

That is right. Very right. I don't want to play anything between 0 karma and a mul, 7 karma.

Hell. I only want to play a mul and humans, maybe an elf or two, just toss in a half-breed.

Now, as I was told by an Imm. They want me to play magickers and pretty much everything between 0 and 7, or I can't play 7.


Now, Ac, Give me the frank talk about how Karma and trust works together, please?

You don't have to make a magicker in order to get high karma.  If you have reasonably high karma and you special app a mul and do a good job, you may end up keeping that option after the PC died.

[Maybe42or54]

Larath. See how I mentioned an Imm in that blurb about they want me to play magickers and pretty much everything between 0 and 7?

Do I really have, or want, 4+ years to finally play all these pcs they want me to play the way I'd want to play them, so that I can play the one I want to play? It may only take 2 years *shrug*. I may not have 2 years. Personal reasons, don't ask.

That is a long time there, my friend. I could have me a nice bottle of scotch if I bought one now and stored it in my closet til that day. I may enjoy that role that much more. I may not enjoy any role between now and then, but there is a chance I would. Playing the roles I like, probably, all look the same to Imms. Even though they all are different to me. The complexity of my thoughts for some of my pcs would probably look extremely simple to people watching.

I don't want Karma, because I may never use it anyway. Since it is levelled, and to get to the top level you need to go through the other levels. I don't see how playing 6 magickers can really effect playing a mul besides me knowing the intricasies of magickering. I don't see how the current leveling of Karma works at all. Which is why I suggested, and it was obviously ignored, that we make an attribute system instead of the current level of Karma. I think that would make a lot more sense to me and my followers, all 4 of them.

Right now it sounds like this: And tell me if I am wrong here.

Level 1- You can look at my dog.
Level 2- You can touch the thing
Level 3- You can make it giggle.
Level 4- You can hold it, but don't move.
Level 5- Alright, you can move.
Level 6- You can dance with it.
Level 7- You can play with toys with it.
Level 8- You can wreslte with it and shoot it with my bb gun.

[Xygax]

The special applications process provides what you hope to achieve with your "attributes" system, Maybe42or54, and allows us the luxury of tuning the MUD's population in various popular guild/race categories.

-- X

[Maybe42or54]

The special applications process provides what you hope to achieve with your "attributes" system, Maybe42or54, and allows us the luxury of tuning the MUD's population in various popular guild/race categories.

-- X

I tried, I was denied. Outright.
For the reasons I stated in my previous post.

There is a story I wrote on that but deleted it after so...
Here are the basics. Over the past year I have emailed the mud I think four or five times requesting information on muls, such as background descriptions, help on the history, so on and so on. Refused with an answer that didn't make sense each time.
I tried the helpers, and let us just say, that didn't work.
I tried other players, and well.. I got a few more basics, but overall it wasn't very helpful.

I special apped for a Pc in the future. I was thinking 3 or 4 months. I was refused outright, but I got some very good insights into the mul. Thank you Imm'er. I was then told they would like me to play some magicker and other races first. That'll take a year right there, if not more. Now, another question.

Why do I have to get purposefully distracted to get the mission in hand? For example, that is like going to a Mazda Car lot to test drive the cars their before I go to a Jeep lot and buy me a Jeep, when I don't like Mazda's. Just sounds that way to me.

[waroth]

Forgive me for chiming in again, but I think the reason they told you that was because they or that Imm wished to see you in some sort of role with responsibility.  They wished to observe you playing a role which required a small amount of trust first, versus one that requires an immense amount of trust.  Maybe I am wrong, but it is how I am translating that.

[Vanth]

Maybe42or54, you're asking for access to a rocket launcher.  We want to see how responsible you are in the use of rifles and machine guns first.

[RunningMountain]

The problem? They are all too busy with their little high-fantasy plots that involve about 4 players in their clan, and that's all they care about. That is just my opinion on why a lot of people get overlooked.

You exaggerate and you seem to need experience running a clan from the immortal side.
If someone wants to get noticed, they can raise their hand.  If not, then you have no argument.

Karma to me is just an excuse to reward certain players who have appeased and played with certain imms, if this wasn't true, then the twenty or so players I believe deserve it would have it.  

In the past (like eight years ago) I would have agreed with you, bro.  I once had a character that was ressed like eight times.  However, this is certainly not the way it works today.  

Imms, like the rest of us,  probably have certain favorite people they feel can really bring life to the game.  They play with these folks and may reward them karma for jobs well done (as anyone is rewarded when their work is noticed).

However, doing nothing to get noticed will get you exactly - nothing.

...there a lot of good players whom do not care for it and these are the ones that get overlooked. Hence making the system quite flawed, and needing to be changed.

If they don't care for it, then you have no argument.  If they don't want it, they don't get it and no one is the worse for it.  If they want it, ask for it.  That's all.  Karma is as easily granted as it is taken away.  I'm sure any Imm who trusts someone with one additional karma point will have no problem taking it away if their trust ends up being misplaced.

Hence, the system is certainly not flawed but actually works quite well.  

Additionally - since special applications are the offer freedom from the wheel of karma, one could argue that the need for a karma system at all is unncessary because anyone can play anything at any given time and karma then simply is relegated to the role of an admin aid.

Frankly, I don't see that you have a reasonable argument - no offense.

Like I said you shouldn't have to "raise your hand" to be noticed.  You should be watched and receive criticism, but unless you send in e-mails to be watched, and even then you are not guaranteed anything but maybe a reply in a few weeks.

I know that's not how it works.  But people do plenty in game and never get noticed, because they aren't involved in the special little plots that imms like to setup for their clans, only, when's the last time the entire PC population was affected by a plot?  I can't even recall, for me it was the HRPT for the liberation of Tuluk.  Since then I have tried to avoid plots because they do nothing but get me killed and piss me off.



I'm not trying to make an arguement, just a point, that the system does not reach everyone, and plenty of players are simply overlooked, whether it's the staff's fault or the player's fault for now "asking" for the karma is up to you to decide I suppose?

-RM

[Maybe42or54]

Waroth. Hopefully that is out of the question.
I've only had 11 or 12 pcs and 5 of those have been in leadership positions within a house or clan.

Maybe42or54, you're asking for access to a rocket launcher.  We want to see how responsible you are in the use of rifles and machine guns first.

Nice Analogy, but someone skilled in Machine gunning and someone trained in rocketry wont be able to do each others jobs perfectly.

[Xygax]

If the purpose of this thread is to determine whether Maybe42or54 (and/or RunningMountain, though that looks like a derailment from Maybe's original post) should have access to the mul race-option, I'd rather that sort of thing not be discussed on the GDB.

Maybe42or54:  Feel free to e-mail me personally and include all of your previous correspondence; I'll have a look at it, though I don't guarantee that my thoughts will differ from the thoughts of those before me, or that my opinion will hold any weight.

I don't personally consider the karma system flawed, relative to other alternatives that I've seen proposed, and so far I haven't seen a system outlined here that presents anything as effective as what we have now.  I realize that sometimes people go overlooked, and that far more often people feel overlooked.  There are remedies for that that have been mentioned within this thread and the several others I linked before, please try them out.  If those remedies don't work for you, then I suggest trying to find a way to enjoy the roles for which you do have karma.

-- X

[Maybe42or54]

Of course you don't. The purpose of this thread was for someone to answer my ignored questions. Keyword being ignored questions. Using myself as an example.

Now would anyone care to answer the questions I asked?

[Nao]

mmh, as far as I know, being a new player I'm still karma-less.  I know that I'm gonna get frustrated about the karma sooner or later, probably when I really want to play that awesome d-elf/magicker concept I thought up but can't due to lack of karma and because I feel that as an european player with off-peak play times, I'm not watched a lot.

However, I think the karma system here is handled -FAR- better than in another MUD  I've seen. We have imms that are online off-peak, too, important for euro players like me. We have imms assigned to unclanned characters (I happen to play one of those atm) now. Even without karma, you can play a fair number of races and guilds, playing all those concepts I'd like to with those choices is still going to keep me busy for some time. During the time I played here, I've actually noticed some imm-presence, even during off-peak hours (cheered me up quite a lot, I'm not alone, yay!). You don't loose karma when you play a karma-restricted class/race.  I feel that unlike in certain other places I've played for some time, a fair number of those that deserve karma really get it. And if everything doesn't work out, you can always submit a special application and hope to be lucky with that.
Overall I think the system is as good as it can get...

[Xygax]

Of course you don't. The purpose of this thread was for someone to answer my ignored questions. Keyword being ignored questions. Using myself as an example.

Now would anyone care to answer the questions I asked?

I assume you mean this question?

Topic:  Karma and trust
How are those two compared

Your question is answered in all of the other threads I posted earlier.

-- X

[Qetesh]

Maybe42or54

I think the point was, the staff may be ready to trust you with a lot of other roles before that one. And we would like you to give a try into one of those others or at least monitor your play more, before we feel you can be ready for that race.

Yes, you can always speical app, but if you get approved is always up in the air. However, if you don't we will give you a clear reason why, and you really can't ask for more than that.

And RM, once again, we do have the review flag. It really doesn't get much easier than that. You can send us an email and we will respond to you. I mean, most people that want Karma and don't get it, inquire.

We all have lives and this is a volunteer effort. I myself would love nothing more than to dedicate my 8 hour work day to the mud. However, Nessalin has made it clear he can only pay me in imaginary peanuts, and that doesn't pay my rent. So instead I just devote 4-6 hours at night to the mud. And not every night, because I have a family that need to not feel second place to a game and I at least have to pretend for their sake that it's true.

And I am not the only Imm with this dilemma, most of us are your average, hard working adults. We do our best. It will have to be good enough. Sorry.

[Maybe42or54]

My questions:

Why is the current system built in "Levels"?

Explain it to me frankly.

Would it be better in an attributed system?

Yes, I know, people that have more than 5 karma don't really care. Imms less then that, from my point of view.

Isn't the system inherently flawed since we have a level system in a leveless game?


With the attributed style:
You could build it the way you want by putting the karma where you want it. For instance, you have no Karma. Imms give you 1 karma(s). You want to play a mul, so you pick the species route and put that 1 karma to play d-elf.
As you build up karma, you keep attributing it to the side of the race you want it to go. Magickers and whatnot can play magickers and the half giants can play half giants and so on and so forth.

This is also inherently flawed since you only need 3 karma to play a mul which is pretty much a special app process anyways. So, when you get that mul option, you need to email the mud asking them to open it for you since, they know if you are worthy or not.

*shrug* Just an idea.

[Xygax]

Why is the current system built in "Levels"?

Because it works well and makes sense with the way power is distributed among the races and guilds.

Would it be better in an attributed system?

No.  See below.

Isn't the system inherently flawed since we have a level system in a leveless game?

No.  See below.

With the attributed style:
You could build it the way you want by putting the karma where you want it. For instance, you have no Karma. Imms give you 1 karma(s). You want to play a mul, so you pick the species route and put that 1 karma to play d-elf.
As you build up karma, you keep attributing it to the side of the race you want it to go. Magickers and whatnot can play magickers and the half giants can play half giants and so on and so forth.

This is still a tiered system (ie. level-based), and only serves to allow you to "short-cut" to a class you want to play.  The reason for the karma system in the first place is to prevent short-cuts like that.  There is another route for short-cuts called special application.  I'm sorry that that route hasn't been successful for you.

This is also inherently flawed since you only need 3 karma to play a mul which is pretty much a special app process anyways. So, when you get that mul option, you need to email the mud asking them to open it for you since, they know if you are worthy or not.

*shrug* Just an idea.

So...  you're calling your own proposal inherently flawed?  Maybe I'm being dense:  please clarify.

-- X

[Gaare]

Let me tell you what I understand from detrailment, some people would like to be praised occasionally for what they are doing IG and to be told how they are doing right.

Maybe rarely, but I see some players begin to play directly with IMMs instead of thinking of IG consequences. Like.. I lost this character because X does not like me.. this quest is failed because of Y, these are false conclusions of Z, because X does not like me my karma and account notes are awful.. Because of Z, all alphabet hates me, etc..

Peh... IMMs are human so they may mistakes or do not notice what you are doing good. After a while playing game OOCly with IMMs, some people begin to think everything around themselves happen because of their personal relations with IMMs.  I have heard these from people, I have seen these kinds of words many times. Then after this period, some of those players leave the MUD or try to blame IMMs for everything in OOC level or using GDB (note I am not saying everything is perfect, but simply every problem your PC face can not be because of your relation with IMMs.)

There was a recent post about what is RP. RP very shortly means staying IC. On the other hand, playing game with/againist IMMs and using OOC communication (IMs, GDB or chat)  for smoothing or blaming a few things you face IG is definetly not staying IC.

I really am getting bored of reading some players trying to prove how IMMs are making mistakes in every post. Surely critizing is the most imporant way of improvement. On the other hand, with an aggressive attitude mentioning how things are wrong (or you do not like) with your each post everyday  is not a good way of critizing but only meaningless noise.. at least for me.

My two sids.

PS. Funny thing is, those people who like expressing themselves via angry and inconstructive posts are eager to blame everybody else as doing what they are doing for Karma or good attitude of IMMs. Peh..

[RunningMountain]

What I think Maybe is trying to ask is how can you trust someone to play a level 2 karma magicker, but not a mul? I know why muls were raised in karma level and I think they should stay that way, because I remember when there were twenty muls running around at some times, and it was getting ridiculous, but the question I think is, how can you can trust someone to play a level 2-3-4 karma magicker which can kill you with 1 spell, but not a mul?  Muls really aren't that hard to play, they just roll a high strength statistic, and are very low in population because they are bred, not born.  Again though, as far as trust is concerned, I don't see why they are so high up on the karma level.

-RM

[LoD]

With the attributed style:
You could build it the way you want by putting the karma where you want it. For instance, you have no Karma. Imms give you 1 karma(s). You want to play a mul, so you pick the species route and put that 1 karma to play d-elf.
As you build up karma, you keep attributing it to the side of the race you want it to go. Magickers and whatnot can play magickers and the half giants can play half giants and so on and so forth.

Karma isn't a lounge.  1 point of karma doesn't equate to "access" to all karma options where the Imms just picked numbers out of a hat for what class/race goes where.  If you want to play a mul, then you should follow the suggestions of the Immortals and play other roles that contain no small amount of IC power.  What they want to see is how you make use of that immense power, and if you would be dangerous handling a mul.

Mul karma used to be much lower, which was a point that I contested.  When they were easier to create, many players would "make a mul" because they wanted the stats.  They were after the raw and awesome killing power that is a mul.  They didn't want to RP a slave, as the vast majority of muls in game would be.  I could count the number of actual PC mul "slaves" on one hand while I would constantly run into "free" muls wandering around the sands.  I am glad that they made the change to raise mul karma.

As for Xygax's analogy of the rifle and the rocket launcher, I think you misinterpreted the comparison.  He wasn't comparing skill, but damage potential.  If I hand someone a rifle and they misfire (just as if the Imms hand you a special app and you abuse it) they -might- kill someone, but there's a much larger chance that it will graze, wound or miss altogether.  When some misfires a rocket launcher, chances are that its victim and everyone within a fair distance will be killed and/or badly wounded.

The damage potential for the high level karma classes/races warrants careful scrutiny over a player's history, habits and play style before handing out such a dangerous weapon.  Adopting a system to let players "play what they wanted" is contrary to the entire purpose of karma.

-LoD

[RunningMountain]

LoD I agree with raising the karma level. I think rejecting muls more often and keeping a cap on the population would be just as effective as raising the karma so that hardly anyone has it.  Just because you have the karma to make it doesn't mean it needs to be approved.

-RM

[amoeba]

, how can you can trust someone to play a level 2-3-4 karma magicker which can kill you with 1 spell, but not a mul?  Muls really aren't that hard to play, they just roll a high strength statistic, and are very low in population because they are bred, not born.

You may really hate this answer, and no disprespct intended.  It wasn't until after I started playing some karma roles that I really got a feel for -why- they were karma role.  Sure a magicker could kill in one spell, but it's not as easy as you think. There are as many risks as there is power.  The shear power a mul would hold right out of the chute could be phenomonal. If you remember the posts about delfs, and people complaining about how much damage a delf could do when it is poorly played.  Think of a mul and how much more powerful they are.  In short sometimes you don't fully understand the whys of things until you you get there.

One other thing to think of from a post that was referenced

You really need to have the patience of a saint at times while using Karma classes or be content solo RPing. I have never retired a mundane character and class or wished hope against hope that they die. I have retired karma classes before and there have been times where I have prayed for a crazy elf to slice my throat open.

When times get exceeding dull, will you have the patience to stick it out, or will you use the power to entertain yourself?  I think much of that is what they are looking for.

My two sid, back to lurking on this thread.

[RunningMountain]

Amoeba, so how will you ever truly know if someone can play a mul? Eventually it comes down to just giving it to them correct? Do they have to prove themselves by not killing anybody with karma level 2 magicker, then go to karma level 3 and play a giant and not PK anybody, then so and so forth?  I am perplexed.

[amoeba]

Amoeba, so how will you ever truly know if someone can play a mul? Eventually it comes down to just giving it to them correct? Do they have to prove themselves by not killing anybody with karma level 2 magicker, then go to karma level 3 and play a giant and not PK anybody, then so and so forth?  I am perplexed.

I think that is an oversimplification. It's not about PKing persay.  How you demonstrate trust worthyness varies from player to player.  There is the straight forward rising up in karma, which is the most obvious route, albiet a slow route. Then there is the special app route. If you think all that is cared about is to if you kill someone or not you're missing the boat.  

Personaly I don't know the answer for you, I don't know your RP, only those who can see from above can.  It seems that rather than having a very public discussion about your individual needs, you might be better served by communicating with the IMMs.  To me communicating with them is like the hide skill. I don't really know if what I am doing is right, I can only infer it by the outcome. And with all things, you get better at it with time.  And please, don't twink practice IMM contact. It probably just pisses them off.   But I doubt bantering back and forth here will help your cause any.

Now, I'm tired, it's freaking hot, 115+, and I'm going to go lay down in front of a fan. Good luck.