Weapons and Armour on Zalanthas

[Dracul]

Note: I don't have much to add...I'd only be an echo.

I support more stamina tags though. Heavy penalities for heavy armor.
There could be a lot of coding added to calculate desert heat, damage, dehydration, etc. I don't know how much work that would be...but I think it'd be quite easy (although going back over a bunch of things would be a hassle) to simple add negative stamina bonuses.

Like someone said, on some items they already exist, they should just be more.

And yes...it will change the balance of the game.

[Laeris]

Not that I'm jumping in on one side or another, but I would be hesitant to conclude that simply because something is hard and heavy and protective that it does not provide adequate ventilation.  That could very well be a faulty assumption.

[Malifaxis]

The Armor thing I agree on.

Slings I agree with.

Devil's advocate position:

The weaponry thing should not be changed.  Why?  Because, even in the middle ages, you know, which most western fantasy is based LOOSELY on, a greatsword was really little more than a giant two handed steel club that started the battle with an edge on both sides.  After about two hits with either side of that sword, against heavy armor, it is now a bludgeoning weapon with an attitude and odd heft.  The fact is that if anyone out there who is unarmored gets hit with a large, six foot long, shaft of wood that is sharpened on both sides, they are going to feel it, and probably be in a decent amount of pain, bordering on agony.

Axes, spears, etc, should not be statistically better than swords.  It should depend solely on the production skill of the craftsman, as well as the materials used in production.  You give me a sharp, three foot chunk of obsidian with a handle, and a guy with a spear is going to have a very difficult time jabbing me because of one simple fact:  On my first or second parry, he has lost the tip of his weapon, making it into a short staff.  A well crafted and balanced axe should be better than a moderately crafted shortsword/longsword.  Why?  Not because of what it is, but because of how it was made into what it is.  The reason most swords are superior is because of the blade length.  If you parry with an axe, you should be parrying with the flat of the blade, or the haft.   With a sword, you have the entire thing, except for the last six inches to a food, to parry with, and it's all bladed.  Swords are exceptionally deadly because of the amount of blade area they possess, and because they have a very good amount of reach in most cases.  They are also relatively easy to control in most situations, because of the formation of the weapon itself.

em kicks ~soapbox over to the next person in line.

[Spoon]

Sandals:

Personally, I couldn't stand getting that much sand between my toes.

Anyway, I do feel that weapons and armour could be more authentic. However, this is difficult when it comes to the  short descriptions of items. I'd love to wield a two-handed obsidian whoojibub, but no-one would have a clue what it was. So, perhaps having 'western' short descriptions and then having more detailed authentic-Zalanthian main descriptions is the way to go, which some items do have already. I swear I've seen obsidian longswords being described as having wide, flat blades. If not, then perhaps they should...

I like the idea someone said about Zalanthas being like the world in Stargate. It's nice to hear people making comparisons other than the usual two, of which I personally know very little. I seem to remember it's very sandy, like Allanak.

And one last thing. Being a European player this could be to do with my play times, but I've never actually seen anyone wearing an obsidian breastplate, nor anything made of silt-horror.

[mansa]

So quit chastising code and chastise people. Read all the docs and you'll get the basic feel of a commoner VNPC or a noble VNPC. It's not the Staff at Armageddon that have a problem, rather the players at Armageddon that do.

Why don't you chastise IG it'd be more fun to laugh at a stupid fool for wearing heavy black obsidian armor in the desert.

Then you wearing light sandcloth all bundled up inside can beat the guy up and prove it to them that it's not cool to wear that armor in the desert. It's a bad fashion statement, and it's too hot.

Go tell the Captains down in Allanak that they should quit making you wear this heavy crap.

I'm going to point out something, here.

Sometimes, you can't change how people play the game, inside the game.  You MUST take it to an outside source, and throw in some of your 'trump' cards, in order to prove to other people that your way of thinking is correct.

Immortals do it, by throwing in their 'Immortal' card.  Long time players do it, by throwing in their "Ate a Baby" card.

Here's an Example:

Joe Bynner, who's been promoted to Sergeant, has worked his ass off to get himself a full set of Silt Horror armour.  He's spent all his coins, and killed of tons of NPCs, to finally grab that last piece.  He's going to complete his 'outfit' and then never change it, until the day he dies.  Much like some do, when playing games such as 'Diablo' or 'Everquest'.  He's going to wander around the game, he's going to be teaching other players that his way is the correct way, solely based on his attitude and long life, in the game.

Look at Berlian, and his 'hammers' that he had, when he was around.  Anybody tought by him, also started to use Hammers.  Simply because Berlian was using it, everybody else thought it was the best thing to use.

Now, that Sergeant is WRONG.  He's playing TOTALLY OUT OF WORLD and TOTALLY OUT OF STYLE of the game world.  Do you think the immortals will ask him to remove all the items that he's worked so hard to have?  NO!  Of course NOT!

How do you get it through the mind of the players of the game, that what they've been doing since day 0 is WRONG?

You post on the GDB.  You bring up discussions.  You get immortals to introduce penalities to certain aspects of the game.  It's even harder, when the player in the wrong is playing a Highly Respected role, such as a Tor Noble, or a Kurac Family member.  When they wander around the city in full plate armour, and their massive broadsword and huge bow of UNIQUE gear.   New players look up to these players and will copy them in everyway.

So, I'd like to bring this to the table.  Some people play this game with no care in the world, and others play it with the same love that they would show the Bible or other religious icons.  And when some half-hearted player starts talking shit about that whore whos sleeping her way to the top, the people who love this game will start to get pissed off at the OUT OF CHARACTER playstyle that they are bringing into the game.
[/rant]

[Angela Christine]

Sandals:

Personally, I couldn't stand getting that much sand between my toes.

Not just sand, but harsh, burning hot sand of doom!

I think both the loincloth-and-spiderwebs cloathing style of the Blackwing or Darksun,  and the head-to-toe robes and veils of the Bedoin are perfectly acceptable.  With sandals you have to adapt to burning hot sand splashing on your skin from time to time.  With boots you are protected from direct contact from the sand, but have to adapt to wearing a hot, sweaty, fungal paradise on your feet.  Six of one, half a dozen of the other.



As for worn equipment, I've always been of the opinion that (unless the docs contridict it) the code defines reality.  Things work they way they work because that is the way things work, so I start from the way things are and then try to come up for explanations on how they could work that way.  People are pale?  Ok, there must be a reasonable explanation for pale people.  People are clean?  Ok, then it must be reasonable and somewhat afordable to stay clean (at least by by Zalanthan standards of cleanliness, since everybody smells of dust and sweat no matter what their desc says).   Likewise, heavy equipment that appears to have bonuses without penalties must have some reason for being that way, perhaps it is ventalated or something.  If I CAN be comfortable in armor that looks to be uncomfortable, than I'm likely to wear it because the reality is that it is comfortable.  In the end, the way to change reality is to change the code.  

Currently, the penalties of heavy armor can be avoided with high strength.  You can go around in a blisteringly hot mascot costume (ie. a Mickey Mouse or Big Bird costume) and if you are strong you will not suffer.  Obviously it shouldn't work that way, the ability to endure unpleasant apparel should have more to do with Endurance than Strength.  

The easiest way to adjust reality (the code) is with stamina modifiers.  Ok, this does lead to odities of it's own, like when people sleep in their travelling boots because that is the only way to regenerate all their stamina, but nothing is perfect.  Having people take heat dammage or suffer dehydration for wearing a fur coat would be going too far, you want to use the carrot and the stick, not the carrot and the sledge hammer.  Most warm items could have a penaltiy of 5 stamina or fewer, really absurd items like the dreaded obsidian breastplate might have as much as 10, but no higher than that.  So if you decide to dress like a misplaced Eskimo, heavy fur from head to toe, your total stamina penalty would be around 50 -- that isn't crippling but it is discouraging.  My goal here is to maintain diversity, some people will choose things other than comfort, and if the bonuses and penalties are too large then you wind up with everyone looking the same (like when it seemed that half the people in the known world just happened to choose the backpack design that holds 90 stones, while most other backpacks hold 40-60).

To offset this, I would like to see more "normal cloathing" have small stamina bonuses (less than 5 stamina per item).  Right now, most things that get bonuses are made of sandcloth.  With the right boots, the right cloak, and a few other choice items, it is fairly easy to get a stamina bonus around 50 even while wearing protective armor -- wearing the right boots, the right cloak and normal cloathing should be a little better still.  Sandcloth is the gold standard of desert comfort, but light cotton cloathing should be pretty comfortable too.  I think most commoner cloathing and even most 'rinther cloathing should have small stamina bonuses, sure it looks like shit, smells bad, and is almost worthless, but damn that stuff is comfortable and well broken in.  Choose a cotton vest instead of a leather shirt, you get a bonus of 3 from the vest while the leather shirt had a penalty of 3, so in effect your stamina is 6 higher if you chose the sensible cloathing over the protective apparel.  Not a HUGE difference, but something to gently prod people away from armor they don't need and into more appropriate choices.  

Right now even a merchant who never intends to get into a fight is likely to choose armor, because if they ever do get attacked that armor may buy them a few more seconds to react, and there is no compelling reason to NOT choose armor.  Small but visible bonuses and penalties would make it easier to choose appropriate items.  A mercenary who travels a lot, but travels on kank back rather than on foot, might choose a moderately protective outfit with a total penalty around 20.  A city guard who rarely does more than saunter from the estate to the tavern and back might be willing to take on a 40 or 50 point penalty, sure it is uncomfortable but damn I look good.  A desert elf (or desert human) might choose just a couple of armor items in an outfit with an overall bonus of 40, because their outfit mainly designed to protect them the elements and get them home comfortably rather than stand around fighting all day.  If the lumberjack or freelane miner might choose a good set of gloves and a sturdy helmet with the rest being comfortable cloathing, because if he gets attacked his plan is to scream, drop his load,  and run back to the city, not fight to the death.  A noble or wealthy social climber might choose an outfit that is niether protective nor comfortable, like curly-toed shoes with bells on and a 10 point stamina penalty, simply because they are fasionable and he never expects to need to either run or fight.

I think this sort of statistical behavior modification already takes place, to some extent.  I remember buying a certain kind of robe that looked comfortable but had a 10 point stamina penalty.  Ok, it might have been a bug, but at the time I assumed it was designed that way on purpose because only a certain kind of person should be buying and wearing those robes, and a minor stamina penalty will discourage the public at large without crippling the sort of person who is supposed to wear that item.


The only real downside would be that someone would have to go through every wearable item in the database by hand and decide which items should have penalites (worse than naked) which should have bonuses (better than naked) and which would have no noticable affect at all.  A fur coat would probably have a penalty, but a small item like a fur wristwrap or a bit of fur trim might not have a noticable affect.  Most sandcloth shirts should have a small bonus, but a sandcloth friendship bracelet probably wouldn't be particularily helpful.  



* * *

On a lighter note, I have ICly made fun of people in other games for wearing plate armor all the time, because a walking metal out-house is funny looking.  Wearing a small shed all day, every day doesn't make sense in any world.  


AC

[Comrade Canadia]

*cracks knuckles*  

<long winded>

Comrade...Fantasy is Based off Reality. People may think Armageddon is fantasy, but I'm willing to bet ever piece of code on the game came about because of a reality not because someone said it'd be more fantasy like to include this.

I disagree.  Countless objects have been removed since the start of the mud because they did not fit.  People always have put objects in because they thought they would be 'cool', without mind for what is appropriate to Zalanthas or not.  I don't think this is a problem just with the imms, I think the it's the mud in general.  I refuse to point fingers.  Players are as responsible for the development of the mud over the years as the staff.

Saying that every single object that's in the game makes realistic sense in relation to the world is... well, just wrong.  The imms have a PROJECT asking players to report objects they feel are inappropriate.  I'm just an extremist about this.

So quit chastising code and chastise people. Read all the docs and you'll get the basic feel of a commoner VNPC or a noble VNPC. It's not the Staff at Armageddon that have a problem, rather the players at Armageddon that do.

Why don't you chastise IG it'd be more fun to laugh at a stupid fool for wearing heavy black obsidian armor in the desert.

First off, how do you know I'm not working on this in game?  You don't know who I play.  However, no matter what i"m doing in game - ooc steps must be taken as well.  Frankly, VERY LITTLE changes in game anyways.  Most of the big changes to armag have happened over the years have occured because of ooc initiative, not ic.

This 'Take it in game' argument only solves a small amount of the problem.  The changes HAVE to occur out of game in order to affect things in game.

Then you wearing light sandcloth all bundled up inside can beat the guy up and prove it to them that it's not cool to wear that armor in the desert. It's a bad fashion statement, and it's too hot.

This will solve nothing and you know that.

Now.... Laeris - I'll respond to what you said now.  *grin*

Not that I'm jumping in on one side or another, but I would be hesitant to conclude that simply because something is hard and heavy and protective that it does not provide adequate ventilation. That could very well be a faulty assumption.

Well, I can think of countless heavy armour objects that have miserable ventilation.   And even if they -were- decently ventilated, I'd still say that covering your entire body in this armour is a bad idea.

Heavy armour has never, EVER been worn as a full body covering in a desert by any culture in the history of the universe.  Zalanthians might be tougher, but their desert is harsher, so I think it balances out.  Just pieces of heavy armour?  Sure!  I can think of many examples of this style of armour, and it makes sense to me.  Just try to convince a player to NOT fill a basic wearlocation like their torso with that shiny breastplate.

Could an immortal say, without a shadow of a doubt that  heavy armour in general IS appropriate to Zalanthas... especially Allanak, and then give a convincing argument?  If so, I'll shut up and go home.  I suppose my other suggestions are going to be ignored here so I'll skip on them and concentrate on the armour.

The REASON my argument here is so... well, fervent is that I feel that game worlds need a specific, narrow focus in order to become truly awesome.  I have never liked Zalanthas.  I like the depth of roleplay and awesome players and BRILLIANT code on the mud.  The world has always been an exercise in everyone pretending that they're somehow different from western fantasy, and then utterly failing because of how much western fantasy we bring to the mud.

Again, weapons and armour are what -define- a fantasy world's aesthetic, no matter how much we'd like to pretend otherwise.  Our weapons and armour are ganked RIGHT out of the D&D player's handbook, and then metal is swapped for bone, wood, obsidian, and chitin.  Not only have we done this with -rarely- actually thinking about the properties of the materials we're using, we do this without thinking about the geography and climate that caused people to make these items in the first place.

Armag's attempt to make this vivid, brutal desert world has been sabotaged again, and again, and again.  If it's a very hot day in Allanak, and I see someone whistling as they stroll down the road in a full suit of silt horror... I'm no longer in armag.  How can I be?  The entire BRUTAL HARSH DESERT no longer exists to me.  When I think that sort of armour, I think it's armag's equivalent to plate mail!

...

Why is there plate mail in the harshiest harsh that ever did harsh?  Well, because formal armour of mighty troops has always been plate mail!  IN WESTERN EUROPE.  Full, elaborate suits of silt horror are -obviously- armag's equivalent to plate mail.  It's all about 'armag's equivalent' to something in western fantasy.  Why do we want an equivalent to plate mail?  Are we so unimaginative that we can't think of our own formal wear for troops without blindly snagging whatever convention western fantasy uses?  We're in a desert!  Things are different!

The game is awesome, the game is great... but the world can be magnificent if we stop diluting it and focus narrowly on a -defining- aesthetic.  Just because Dark Sun was successful doesn't mean anything about that world made sense.  Dark Sun was a lousy game world and we've differed ourselves from it in countless ways because of that fact.  

ANYWAYS.  I've gone on long enough.  Please, school me and tell me to shut up if I'm -wrong- about this.  "I don't feel there's any problem" isn't good enough if there aren't reasons offered.  Anyways, I've gone on for long enough.  DISCUSS.  I will attempt to do what I can in game, as well as out until I'm told to stop *grin*

</long winded>

-Dave

[Comrade Canadia]

Oh, and Angela - your comment about sandals was well reasoned.  I'd still like to see more sandals in game, but that makes sense to me so I'll drop them from my list of ranty things.  Thanks for reasoning some of the things I've said with a degree of coherency.   Never been a strong point of mine  :lol:

-Dave

[Dracul]

Well I could see a crazy vivudian in full suit of silt armor.

Thats ah...bout it. Logically.

[joyofdiscord]

I am pretty new to this mud, but I tend to agree with some of the points brought up.  Wood/bone as material for slashing weapons has always seemed a bit odd to me.  Piercing, bludgeoning, even chopping, fine, yes.  A stout wooden "sword" tapered down to even a blunt edge is still going to hurt like ever living hell if you crack someone with the blunt edge.

I don't know a lot about the properties of obsidian, except that it can get pretty sharp (and even flint, too), but stone also chips readily, which is a big impediment to a decent slashing weapon.  In any case, the idea of slicing someone up with a wooden or bone-edged weapon, while not unimaginable, just seems very difficult, time-consuming, and horrifically violent to me.  Yeah, maybe Zalanthan wood is super-hard and you can polish it down to a razor-sharp edge.  Then, of course, we really have to question the whole harshness thing.  Zalanthans don't have metal, but what does that really mean if, instead of busting their asses in mines to pull out ore and smelt it, then labor in front of a hot forge, they can just pull some super-hard, super-dense wood out of the forest and cut it down to size?  Doesn't sound so harsh to me.

I, personally, will definitely be paying more attention to the Zalanthan heat in the future, as I agree that no matter how adapted Zalanthans are, they are going to feel pretty hot from time to time.

[Dan]

Seems no one here has taken into account that some areas of the unknown world are *gasp* cold. So by going there in these fur coats and such should actually be giving a bonus, but if this change went into play then they would not.

[Dracul]

Seems no one here has taken into account that some areas of the unknown world are *gasp* cold. So by going there in these fur coats and such should actually be giving a bonus, but if this change went into play then they would not.

Lol...right. (okay seroulsy...don't correct me.)
but for that case...there could be area flags...which might be a big encumberance of code...but...Im doubting the need.

[Dan]

Mayby I am blind, but I am doubting the need for any coded change whatsoever. If anything it really should not be a high priority.

[Spoon]

I think what this post was getting at was the styles of armour and weapons, not the fact that penalties should be given in heat etc. Which has been discussed far too many times already...

So no chitin full helms, bone-mail, wooden gauntlets or obsidian jock-straps.

[Cuusardo]

I am still trying to wrap my brain around why a silk blouse or vest gives stamina penalties, yet you can wear a full suit of plate mail and suffer no staminal pentalties.

[RunningMountain]

Please be sensitive to the word "plate mail" I doubt that anyone on Zalanthas is fully armored in plate mail. Whether it's bone or wood or whatever.

[Cuusardo]

I had a character that wore full plate mail as a uniform.  So yes, there are people on Zalanthas who wear full plate.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I disagree with getting too picky about heavy armor.  I wouldn't mind seeing some stamina penalties applied, but aside from that, let's look at one of the basic ideas presented in close detail.  The assertion is that heavy armor would cause dehydration at a faster rate.  In order to assert that, we have to prove that whatever causes dehydration occurs more with heavier armor on.  Fair enough; it's caused by sweating more.  Warm-blooded creatures sweat as a way to regulate temperature.  Temperature regulation is required in order to maintain a lower body temperature than the outside environment, or to shed excess heat generated by the body due to action.  In order to eliminate as many variables as possible, let's assume that we have the same level of activitiy with or without the heavy armor.

This leaves us with only regulation of temperature because the body is operating at a lower temperature than the environment.  This is almost certainly true; the extreme heats that Zalanthas exhibits are significantly higher than the body temperature of Earth mammals, for example.  However, we also have to assume that Zalanthan warmbloods are either a) operating a much higher body temperature and are required to regulate less b) have naturally superior insulation to heat or c) have more efficient temperature regulation, or some combination of the three, or some other adaptation I haven't listed.

At this point, I think we've adequately illustrated the heart of the problem.  To say that an obsidian breastplate would be hotter than cloth is certainly true, but it's true because we're applying Earth-physics and Earth-rules and Earth-sensibility to the situation.  In order to say that a Zalanthan dwarf would be more dehydrated by an obsidian breastplate, you'd have to know a lot more about the biological and physical characteristics of said dwarf.  How heat-insulating is dwarf skin?  What's the actual humidity of Zalanthan air?  How cooling is sweat?  What's the dwarf's default body temperature?  How much heat does the dwarf's metabolism generate?

You can't answer those questions any more than I can, which is to say, speculating on how that heavy obsidian breastplate would affect the physiology of that dwarf is just that - mere speculation.  It's not that it's a bad question, but it's unanswerable.  If we assume that the rules of Earth-physics apply, we still don't know what variables to plug in.  And of course, the rules may not even apply.

I'll agree that it certainly -seems- illogical to see someone tromping around clad head to toe in chitin, and I wouldn't mind seeing a few little penalties applied in order to discourage this sort of behaviour, or at least to balance it out a bit.  Beyond that, I'm willing to exercise my suspension of disbelief.  It's nice to make Earth-real and Zalanthan-real match up to a large extent, because it adds that "gritty realism."  At the same time, you can only match it up to a certain point, because once you delve too far into the science, Zalanthas starts to fall apart, and has to rely on its own virtual version of reality.  I believe that this is one of those times.

[Rhyden]

Pieces of heavy armour?  Sure!  Remember those Greek gladiators?  Maybe a heavy shoulder piece, greaves and a shield?  Swank.  That works in hot weather.  A full suit?  NO.  Granted, players don't flock to this kind of armour all of the time, but it's still very common in the game world when... I truly don't think it should be.

All Zalanthians have adopted to be more resistant to climate conditions that 'we' would generally not be. Zalanthians are bigger, stronger and can endure the weather way more than any Earthling can. I think there was a past post more generalized around this topic, perhaps somebody could dig it up? Anyways, I'm sure it's in the helpfiles as well, but I'm too lazy to even dig that up. Cheers!

[Agent_137]

Holy shit, JollyGreenGiant made a full length solid, non-humorous post.

I've lost so much faith in the world.

:cry:


In related news, I agree with him.

Let's just stick with the obvious. It's hotter than cloth, heavier than cloth. Add a stamina penalty here and there and move on.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

Sandals in the cities will work, or someone who keeps all the time on their mounts. But walking/fightin/moving in the deserts with very hot sand running about your bare feet, with the hot sands baking your toes nice and crisp? No thanks.

[Spoon]

With half-giants stomping around? I'll stick to my obsidian plated doc martins.

Ahem. Yes, I agree, sadals would be fine in cities. Socks and sandals, however, will never fit in ANYWHERE.

[Comrade Canadia]

The climate issue has been addressed already, and repeatedly.  If Zalanthians are so tough they can cover their entire bodies with heavy, non-porous material in 150 weather... then there's no point to this being a desert.  

Seriously, why make a desert if we're immune to the heat?  That's ridiculous.  Zalanthians can LIVE in this horrible environment while an earth human would probably die very quickly - that's where their extra toughness comes into play.  Not in making them immune to the effects of heat.

Anyone else think slings are cool?  Seriously.  Their cheap and kill things.  What's not to love?

-Dave

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Comrade Canadia wrote:

Anyone else think slings are cool? Seriously. Their cheap and kill things. What's not to love?

Yes! Yes, slings are very cool. And I have a lot to say on the subject, but I accidentally put it in the wrong thread, 'cause I'm like that.
FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit wrote:

I hope you all don't mind if I give a dead horse one final, swift kick to the kidneys, but I have to mention the issue of slings.
They are, to put it simply, not where they should be.
A stone fired from a sling would be very painful to an adult human, and could cause a serious wound, even if a fatal one, if it hit a vital area like the neck or head. If you can get those little pebbles to a high enough speed, they are very capable of cracking a skull.
Of course, most people would probably prefer a bow or crossbow for long-range combat with versus other humans. Fair enough. Bows and espicially crossbows are more practical for that use. A sling's main purpose, after all, would probably be for the hunting of small game.
A pebble fired from a sling should utterly decimate a rat or vestric, and would seriously slow down a gurth or tandu. This, however, is simply not the case, IG.
Here's a short list of reasons why I think slings aren't used much:
-The code is a bit clunky, mainly the fact that you have to unequip a sling before you can reload. This is not my main concern, however. After all, slings aren't really made to fire a barrage of stones in a short period of time, like a war bow can.
-One of the major benefits of getting a sling is that it uses a cheap, lightweight ammo. Unfortunately, when the ammo does run out, it gets ICly awkward having to look for more. When your character bends down, looking for a small, round pebble to throw into his sling and resume combat with, he quite often comes up with a head-sized chunk of sandstone, much to the player's chagrin. I don't think a 'forage stone' or a 'forage ammo' command would be too out of line.
-One of the major drawbacks to slings is that have seriously stunted damage. All missile weapons do for playability purposes, of course. But slings are so weak that they have been rendered basically useless. One time I had a sling-wielding character who spotted a vestric, and began whipping stones at it. Realistically, a single stone fired from a sling would be enough to shatter a vestric's hollow little bones. My character, however, launched five stones into it, and the little beast was still standing. Frustrated, he chased it down, and when the vestric began to tire out, my character looked at it, and saw it was still in 'excellent' condition.
I'd also like to add that this same vestric went on to 'viscously peck' my poor character's neck.
-On the issue of ammo once again, it seems as if every PC in Zalanthas is obsessive-compulsive when it comes to selecting rocks. Many 'pebble' and 'stone' objects that, at a glance, seem like they could be used in a sling can't. When you read their mdesc, however, it mentions something about it being slightly uneven, or grainy. My response is... so what? You can still try to fire it. Clearly, it won't hit as accurately or do as much damage as the ideal, perfectly spherical marble of doom, but it should do in a pinch.
My point is, it'd be nice if more stones were coded as 'fireable', even if they are not the ideal ammunition.
-Also, as for all those times you succeed at forage, but fail to find the thing you were looking for, I wonder why my character can't just slam that hunk of jasper onto the ground, pick up the shards, and then start shooting. Rocks can already by broken down to a certain degree, but for some reason, then never seem to flake off into pebbles. The major argument against this, I'd guess, is that a block of granite, succesfully cut, would be produce a huge amount of fireable pebbles. My response to this is: so what? Yeah, Zalanthas is harsh, but is it having-to-choose-between-water-and-your-precious-ordinary-pebbles harsh? Should dull, ordinary rocks be a rare commodity?
It might be nice if fireable stones just came up more often in the 'forage' randomization. Right now, you seem to get an equal number of jasper cinderblocks (a semi-precious stone) as you do granite pebbles. If you made getting fireable rocks more common, that poor sling-user who spams 'forage rocks', trying to get something to shoot before that gurth re-heals, might have something to show for his efforts.
-There are certain RP implications that make slings annoying. For example, it's hard to 'swiftly' load and fire a sling, what with the swinging it overhead and all. Also, let's say you fire a stone at a jozhal standing on a sand dune. The stone misses, and the jozhal runs away. Your character could not, realistically, walk up the sand dune, bend over, and pick up the tiny rock among a mountain of sand, could they?
Little things like this are tedious, but are part of the nature of slings, and not really a 'problem' in my eyes. You could always just ignore the RP implications of a sling, and treat it like a smaller, cheaper bow. Sort of like how people like to pretend crossbows are stronger, fancier bows.
-It would nice to see more than one kind of sling.
With that said, here are some concessions I'm willing to make:
-It is possible that the characters I have used slings with had too low an archery skill to make full use of the weapon.
-You could always make them too good. For example, you could make ammo more accesible and make the damage higher, but if you do, you might see a lot of people walking around with slings, and even using them in on the battlefield or similar, questionable places.
-A change to slings might cause a rippling effect of other balances, which could make 'archery' itself overpowered. Or underpowered.
That about it does it for now. Comments?

[Agent_137]

Five monkeys, I like all you have to say, except:

-It would nice to see more than one kind of sling.

There is more than one kind of sling. Though, in my time, I've only seen one type sold in shops.