Weapons and Armour on Zalanthas

[Comrade Canadia]

This is a long rant, so be warned.  And also, please recognise I'm a useless player.  I've greatly enjoyed this game for many years and as such, have become rather involved in it.  Because of that, I form opinions on how things should be done.  It's easy to be an armchair imm and tell people what is, and what is not appropriate in a game world they've spent  almost a decade and a half building.  So note I recognise my own hypocrisy here.  Still... I think discussions like this are valuable.  SO HERE I GO.

Well, since I thought the entire 'I hate sexism' thread went over well, I'm going to try to stimulate discussion on something I feel is detrimental to the sort of 'feel' of the game world.  There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to what to include in an open, massively multiplayer world like this.  One of them is 'Play what you want, use what you want within reason.'  the other is 'We need to narrowly define what is, and is not appropriate in order to build consistency and believability.'  I'm from the second school of thought.

Weapons and armour, since I feel they are part of the defining aesthetic of any fantasy world, are what I'm gonna attack here.

Armageddon's roots are in Dark Sun with some strong flavouring of Dune.  The Dune part I don't mind, the Dark Sun part - I do.  Dark Sun's world was based on the idea of taking western fantasy cliches, and twisting them.  This is cool, except that the basis is STILL in western fantasy.  The weapons and armour of Dark Sun, with a few exceptions, were the same weapons and armour you find in Forgotten Realms.  Just, uh, made of bone and obsidian instead of steel.

Why is this a bad thing?  I don't feel it's appropriate, and I feel it dilutes the aesthetic.  Armageddon tries very hard to be a fantasy world that's different from the bastard offspring of Tolkein - but we can't even set apart our weapons and armour.  If you look at the Player's Handbook for Dungeons and Dragons - every single freaking weapon listed there can be found in armag... just with 'steel' swapped for 'bone.'  We need to realise where some of these weapons are appropriate, and when others are not.

Armageddon's IC roots of an age long ago SOMEHOW attempts to rationalise  this... but in the end, it strikes me more as an excuse, than an explaination.  I don't care if your ancestors wore plate mail - it still doesn't make wearing silt horror in apparently the HOTTEST DESERT EVER any less suicidal, or a bone claymore any less of a ludicrous concept.

The heavy armour, perhaps above all else, is my greatest concern.  Desert cultures tend to COVER themselves in robes like abas - or wear practically nothing at all.  Covering yourself in the heaviest possible armour should, by all means, kill you.  And the 'Zalanthian people are superhumans' stuff, I don't buy.  I don't care how tough you are, you're going to die if you walk around in the equivalent of an oven in 150 degree weather.  I don't care how tough you are, if you live in this UBER DESERT you should dress and act like it.  What's the point of a harsh desert world if it doesn't actually affect roleplay at all?

Pieces of heavy armour?  Sure!  Remember those Greek gladiators?  Maybe a heavy shoulder piece, greaves and a shield?  Swank.  That works in hot weather.  A full suit?  NO.  Granted, players don't flock to this kind of armour all of the time, but it's still very common in the game world when... I truly don't think it should be.

Anyways, my point here is that armag has a two personalities.  One of them is the brutal, harsh desert world it claims to be.   Another one is sort of a random compilation of pre-industrial ideas from western Europe.  

Finally, I will alos note that over the years the game has done a great deal to drop a hefty chunk of the western Europe aesthetic.  Even still, there's a tremendous amount of it in game that should be addressed.  I have even more to say on specifics, but that can wait until people start flaming me for telling them how to play.

-Dave
-THERE I SAID IT

[Marauder Moe]

Valid points.  What would you have us do, though?

This IS a western (based in the United States, a western nation) fantasy (its not real) game.

On a side note: am I the only one who doesn't believe/agree/like it when people equate Armageddon to Dune?  Other than both involving a desert world (Arrakis is WAY harsher than Zalanthan wilderness, though) there aren't THAT many similarities.

[Anonymous]

On a side note: am I the only one who doesn't believe/agree/like it when people equate Armageddon to Dune?  Other than both involving a desert world (Arrakis is WAY harsher than Zalanthan wilderness, though) there aren't THAT many similarities.

The whole spice and house thing is strikingly similar as well, though.

[Marauder Moe]

On a side note: am I the only one who doesn't believe/agree/like it when people equate Armageddon to Dune?  Other than both involving a desert world (Arrakis is WAY harsher than Zalanthan wilderness, though) there aren't THAT many similarities.

The whole spice and house thing is strikingly similar as well, though.

Other than the words "House" and "Spice" I disagree.  But perhaps we should take this to another thread...

[wizturbo]

From my understanding, the weight of these armors is very restrictive, and likely to become MORE restrictive once armors are redone.  In my time here in Armageddon, I have seen VERY few humans wearing full suits of heavy armor.  Mostly, I see half-giants, muls and some dwarves wearing such because they have the strength to support to encumberance.  

While it might be questionable if a human could wear heavy armors and survive, it becomes very realistic for a half-giant or a mul to do so.  They are beyond super-human.

[House Rising Sun]

By any other name, right?

Weapons like the longsword, shortsword, battle axe, dagger (the staples of the swords half of swords and sorcery) are easy to recognize in text for what they are: blades of various shapes and sizes with handles stuck on them. That's all it means. Does any more really need to be said about it? An obsidian sword only carries the flavor of vanilla fantasy if you picture an english knight's sword from the 1300s, except.. made of obsidian. Just remember, it's a distinctly zalanthan sword, whatever that means to YOU.

Regarding the rest of it, for the thirty-fifth time, yes heavy armor will probably kill a dude under krath. But who cares? It's that kind of thinking, trying to apply overly realistic restrictions to a fantasy setting, that gives nerds like us a bad name.

Perhaps some ooc flavor is in order, to shut stuff like this up in the future. Let's take the LotR movies as an example. Starting with little more than the barest armament descriptions, designers came up with dozens of distinct looks and feels to the weapons and armor used. If this is honestly a problem for us, we can do something similar, and just go ahead and define zalanthan style. It'd certainly make a neat page. Armageddon.org is kinda light on the visuals, no?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I've pretty much argued your exact points in the past.  However, I don't think that the problem can be addressed by telling people that that obsidian breastplate is BAD and if they wear it they are a TWINK.  Because people, in general, will always give themselves as much coded advantage as possible, as long as the staff doesn't put their foot down on it.

Rather, I think we should provide coded incentive to the human who wears a loincloth and a leather collar, so that she can kick the ass of the dwarf wearing obsidian on every wear location that she possesses.  Implement combat and thirst penalties for wearing heavy armor.  Make them take "heat damage" periodically if they go out into the wastes.  And furthermore, make the most extreme pieces of armor unavailable in a common store.  These should only be available to guards who are paid to sit in the shade all day, watching a location.

[sacac]

I agree on the obsidian breastplate thing.
But who are you to consider heavyness?
If I am a half-giant with AI strength.
Why would you tell me something is heavy?
I would like to ask if you see more people in obsidian armor then you do in leather and bone. I don't. I don't see very many at all in heavy things like that. And a lot more in leather.
I, my self, have never worn giant turtle shell as armor (And wont) so I can't say one way or another. But in my opinion, how do desert turtles survive with that on? It creates its own atmosphere in there.

[EvilRoeSlade]

They aren't wearing it.  It's their backbone.  It doesn't effect their body temperature in any way whatsoever.

It doesn't really matter how heavy the armor you're wearing is.  What matters is how hot it will make you.  Even a half-giant can die of heat exhaustion and heat stroke.

[sacac]

I missunderstood. Alrighty then. I agree on that though. I never really wore anything during the summer that was heavier then a shirt and maybe shorts. It got pretty hot and I could have sworn I was going to die a few times.

[Bogre]

Zalathans are more fit than we are, because they grew up in the harshness.

[flurry]

But in my opinion, how do desert turtles survive with that on? It creates its own atmosphere in there.

Also, turtles are cold-blooded, so they don't need to regulate their body-temp at some fixed temperature.  Cold-blooded animals tend to do better in hot temperatures and are sluggish when it cools off.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, but it seems to me that the documentation states that Zalanthians are somewhat tougher, and the environment is a LOT harsher.

[Cuusardo]

I had a character who wore a greathelm (made of chitin) that gave a -5 penalty to max stamina.  Honestly, even though that bugged me a bit, I think that perhaps more of the heavier armors should bear such penalties.


(Minor derailment: Spice in Dune is a single type of drug that causes effects similar to clairvoyance.  It's actually a far cry from the different kinds of spice on Zalanthas.  Zalanthas is much more like the desert world in the movie Stargate, IMO.)

[Maybe42or54]

Yea.. That one outpost was just like luir's. Over ran by them other giant crickets. Killed everyone and eventually taken back.

[Angela Christine]

Zalathans are more fit than we are, because they grew up in the harshness.

I think people over-estimate how adapted Zalanthan people are.  If they are so well adapted that 140-150F temperatures don't bother you while wearing heavy armor, why bother saying that it gets that hot at all?  Wouldn't it make just as much sense to say that the hottest days get up around 120F, with average temperatures being 90-100F?  That would get accross the point that it is unpleasantly hot just as well as fantastically high temperatures and people that are adapted to those temperatures, maybe even better.  I'd say that 140 feels at least as bad to a Zalanthan as 120 feels to a Canadian.

AC

[da mitey warrior]

100% agree with heavy armor giving stamina penalties.  It's realistic, it is a good balance between light and heavy armor, and it effects the right people.  A full suit of platemail might give you -100 stamina (combined for all 10 pieces in a full suit), for example.  A noble guard wouldn't care, since he never uses up stamina while walking around the city.  But the first thing the guard will do if he's ever trapped out in the desert is dump all his heavy armor.  A desert ranger would care, and might go for reinforced sandcloth for it's bonuses.  All this without having to enforce some sort of artificial OOC armor policy.  It's perfect.

While I agree with your ideas on weapons in principle, I think they should be left in because it is what people are familiar with.  Realistly, without metal you shouldn't have any types of swords at all.  And that is just too much of a streach for most people, including myself.  Removing them would not add to the game much and would turn off alot of people.  The most you should do, I should think, is boycott unrealistic weapons without enforcing your views on others.

[jmordetsky]

Rather, I think we should provide coded incentive to the human who wears a loincloth and a leather collar, so that she can kick the ass of the dwarf wearing obsidian on every wear location that she possesses.  Implement combat and thirst penalties for wearing heavy armor.  Make them take "heat damage" periodically if they go out into the wastes.  And furthermore, make the most extreme pieces of armor unavailable in a common store.  These should only be available to guards who are paid to sit in the shade all day, watching a location.

This is so weird, because I was thinking about the same thing today and look now it's a thread. Couldn't agree more with the above.

It's an odd state of affairs, I played a tribal elf once where I purposely wore nothing, save a thong, something on my feat, a headband and some tribal markings. When I would walk into a room, characters sitting around in heavy bone plate would be shocked and appaled at how underdressed I was. To which I would reply, "huh?"

odd.

edited: bekuz I is dum

[Trenidor]

You do know...that Northereners wear lots of armor because it's not as hot up there...right?

And southerners wear very little armor at all.

Read this http://www.armageddon.org/general/fightingstyles.html for starters

And this also explains why northlanders use shields and another weapon...axes, hammers, shortswords, clubs, and the like that are able to either get through armor, or break armor.

Whereas, southerners use two weapons, swords, staves, and other such things that allow them to move quickly for the kill.

Now read this: http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html

That explains why Allanaki wear more clothing then they should. It's MODESTY AND FASHION!!! They take those two over comfort, however if you were logically thinking, the more you cover up, the less likely you are to become sunburnt. They shouldn't however, be wearing armor because of it's restricability and the heat it is underneath.

Up north however, where sandstorms arent as few, and the weather is more "cool-hot" people show their skin, the sun doesn't burn as much, and the weather isn't as bad, however, this is only for the people who don't combat. Commoners are likely to wear this sort of clothing. People such as guardsmen don't wear that type of clothing unless absolutly nessicary.

In the north, one can easily tell the difference between a guard for some house, and a bard for a house.

[Cowboy]

Most folks tend towards using what works for them.  The average desert rat, in the south, wears light stuff and packs two blades.  But common sense and experience tend to cause that same rat to adjust and adapt.  If he joins the Byn or a house as a guard , merc or soldier and has to stand and fight from time to time, then heavier armor and different weapons only make sense.  Only a fool would continue with the sandcloth clothing only thing "cause that's what we do down south."  Plus, some folks tend to travel and see other places and get the chance to acquire other armors and arms.  So looking at the average person and trying to decide where they come from by the way they dress or are armed is a fool's errand.  There are many armors that a a negative affect on stamina, as any good soldier or independent who has to fight to live.  There is a balance between weight and usefulness but like most things here, you need to find out for yourself. Old soldiers know these things.   Young bucks wear what feels good, old ones wear what keeps them alive...feel good er not so they can be "old"soldiers.

[Trenidor]

Most folks tend towards using what works for them.  The average desert rat, in the south, wears light stuff and packs two blades.  But common sense and experience tend to cause that same rat to adjust and adapt.  If he joins the Byn or a house as a guard , merc or soldier and has to stand and fight from time to time, then heavier armor and different weapons only make sense.  Only a fool would continue with the sandcloth clothing only thing "cause that's what we do down south."  Plus, some folks tend to travel and see other places and get the chance to acquire other armors and arms.  So looking at the average person and trying to decide where they come from by the way they dress or are armed is a fool's errand.  There are many armors that a a negative affect on stamina, as any good soldier or independent who has to fight to live.  There is a balance between weight and usefulness but like most things here, you need to find out for yourself. Old soldiers know these things.   Young bucks wear what feels good, old ones wear what keeps them alive...feel good er not so they can be "old"soldiers.

Okay then...since people are gonna do whatever they feel like with no thought about what should occur, then I agree with Comrade Canadia that something needs to be done. However, I was just making point that the VNPCs do it right (and some NPCs)

[Bestatte]

Well *I* wear sandcloth under my heavy plate armor, while hefting a massive, wickedly-spiked obsidian-and-ivory rolling pin. Why, you might ask? Because sandcloth prevents chafing, of course. Everyone knows that. And chafing is the bane to all warriors. Nothing so frustrating as mowing down that gaggle of gith when the rash on your thighs start to itch.

That's my secret. Wear sandcloth skivvies, and it won't matter what you have over them.

[Comrade Canadia]

First of, heavy armour isn't the only point I've addressed here - but it seems to be the one people are going on about.  Allow me to say my piece.

This is NOT AN AVERAGE FANTASY WORLD.  Every other fantasy world out there, there's the ongoing debate between heavy and light armour.  'Do I want to be quick and dextrous?  Or am I slow and powerful?'

This debate shouldn't exist on armag to the same extent it -does- in other worlds because of the heat issue.  This should be 'Do I want to die a painful death of overheating and dehydration?  Or do I not want to die a painful death  from overheating and dehydration?'  

Even in the north (to a lesser extent), heavy armour should be absolutely brutal to be covered in.  Individual pieces, as I said earlier - I actually support.  I like that aesthetic, it's more desertish in my mind.  I don't care if you're a dwarf.  Covering yourself in silt horror should make you DIE.

I'm being rather severe about this because IT'S HEAVY ARMOUR IN A DESERT.  THis isn't just any desert ever.  This is the uberharsh desert of awesomeness!  If we're going to whack off about how harsh we are, we should bloody well have a world that reflects the heat of the world, instead of ignore it.  

And yes, people wear light armour more than heavy.  That still doesn't change the fact that the official uniform of most noble Houses is the heaviest possible armour.   Why?  Ceremonial plate mail, of course.  It's what noble Houses have!

...

IN WESTERN EUROPE.

I would love to see code that punishes you for wearing too much heavy armour - especially over locations like your body... but I'm not holding out for new code.  I just want to bring awareness to this, and at least convince a few people that this -is- an issue.

Speaking of which, here's a few other ideas to toss at people:

Bows as Opposed to Slings:

Wood is expensive.  Arrows are INSANELY expensive.  Why the hell are bows the standard missile weapon when slings can be had?  And I'm not talking about dinky sling-shots, I'm talking about big freaking war slings.  These are weapons which people have used in war, and are quite capable of killing someone.  Bows are better weapons... but a sling should be athe norm and the bow a rich man's alternative.  How cheap is a bit of cloth and a rock for a seriously badass weapon of war and hunting?  Seriously, these should be EVERYWHERE on the mud.  This would require new code - as the code for slings is abhorrent.

I should also mention that I feel crossbows aren't... really armag.  VOTE FOR SLINGS!  SLINGS WILL SAVE YOU FROM TERRORISM!

Greatswords:

Do I need to even get in to this?  Greatswords are ludicrous.  They look silly on armag, and the available materials are all miserable for the creation of greatswords.

Swords in general being favoured over axes, clubs, and spears:

Axes, clubs, and spears should be THE weapons, with swords as a rarer eccentricity.  People have always made axes, clubs, and spears from the materials available on armag... but strangely enough, swords have ALWAYS been made from metal.  Why?  Because bone and obsidian would make for unforgiveably lousy swords!  I'm happy to have them still exist in game - but axes, clubs, and spears should be far more common and... well, statistically better.  The nature of the materials makes this rather obvious, in my mind.

Sandals:

Speaking of heavy armour... why does everyone wear boots?  Sandals are -the- form of footwear in desert heat, and should be plentiful!  

Anyways, discuss.  I'm going to start taking my inane rants to the imms via some of the requests on the projects blog.

-Dave
-On a Crusade!

[Fnord]

The way things are doesn't bother me from an immersion point-of-view, or in regards to game balance.

[Trenidor]

Comrade...Fantasy is Based off Reality. People may think Armageddon is fantasy, but I'm willing to bet ever piece of code on the game came about because of a reality not because someone said it'd be more fantasy like to include this.


So quit chastising code and chastise people. Read all the docs and you'll get the basic feel of a commoner VNPC or a noble VNPC. It's not the Staff at Armageddon that have a problem, rather the players at Armageddon that do.

Why don't you chastise IG it'd be more fun to laugh at a stupid fool for wearing heavy black obsidian armor in the desert.

Then you wearing light sandcloth all bundled up inside can beat the guy up and prove it to them that it's not cool to wear that armor in the desert. It's a bad fashion statement, and it's too hot.

Go tell the Captains down in Allanak that they should quit making you wear this heavy crap.

---
As for bows and slings...tell me one sling that can shoot very far, cause I'd like to buy one.

Plus it is somewhat harder to use a sling than a bow...it takes more practice than just learning how to aim.

And crossbows are too arm style. They're lighter than bows, and are easier to conseal than a bow would be, plus materials like wood are easy enough to get, the kadians and salarri do loads of importing from tuluk to Allanak as well, so seeing bows there is no trouble if your rich enough to handle the shipping price plus the building cost and handlers fee, plus the house tax increase and merchants fees.

I think people use the bow because they like the ease of use it has...
Go criticise IG about it.
---

It's true that some weapons are more advantaged than others, however, I don't want people going around telling others that. Swords ARE weak, but they ARE also a symbol both in RL and on Zalanthas. Sword means Power no matter were you look.

Again...go make fun of someone for using a sword.
---

Sandals:

Same with everything else: DO IT IN GAME!

Sandals are cheeper
Sandals are actually a better fasion than boots are if you're smart enough to watch the clothing of your Nobility.

But, boots are also helpful in modern days of desert areas

---

In other words...if you want to complain about problems of the players, complain first to their characters, then if they are truthfully being unrealistic send an email to the imms stating your side how you hate this and that because of this and that.

The board isn't a place so complain truthfully, it's a intelectual discussion area where people say ideas, not complains...complaints go in the email box for imms to take care of.  :wink:   And that is why, complaining is often considered flaming on a GDB.

[Dracul]

Note: I don't have much to add...I'd only be an echo.

I support more stamina tags though. Heavy penalities for heavy armor.
There could be a lot of coding added to calculate desert heat, damage, dehydration, etc. I don't know how much work that would be...but I think it'd be quite easy (although going back over a bunch of things would be a hassle) to simple add negative stamina bonuses.

Like someone said, on some items they already exist, they should just be more.

And yes...it will change the balance of the game.

[Laeris]

Not that I'm jumping in on one side or another, but I would be hesitant to conclude that simply because something is hard and heavy and protective that it does not provide adequate ventilation.  That could very well be a faulty assumption.

[Malifaxis]

The Armor thing I agree on.

Slings I agree with.

Devil's advocate position:

The weaponry thing should not be changed.  Why?  Because, even in the middle ages, you know, which most western fantasy is based LOOSELY on, a greatsword was really little more than a giant two handed steel club that started the battle with an edge on both sides.  After about two hits with either side of that sword, against heavy armor, it is now a bludgeoning weapon with an attitude and odd heft.  The fact is that if anyone out there who is unarmored gets hit with a large, six foot long, shaft of wood that is sharpened on both sides, they are going to feel it, and probably be in a decent amount of pain, bordering on agony.

Axes, spears, etc, should not be statistically better than swords.  It should depend solely on the production skill of the craftsman, as well as the materials used in production.  You give me a sharp, three foot chunk of obsidian with a handle, and a guy with a spear is going to have a very difficult time jabbing me because of one simple fact:  On my first or second parry, he has lost the tip of his weapon, making it into a short staff.  A well crafted and balanced axe should be better than a moderately crafted shortsword/longsword.  Why?  Not because of what it is, but because of how it was made into what it is.  The reason most swords are superior is because of the blade length.  If you parry with an axe, you should be parrying with the flat of the blade, or the haft.   With a sword, you have the entire thing, except for the last six inches to a food, to parry with, and it's all bladed.  Swords are exceptionally deadly because of the amount of blade area they possess, and because they have a very good amount of reach in most cases.  They are also relatively easy to control in most situations, because of the formation of the weapon itself.

em kicks ~soapbox over to the next person in line.

[Spoon]

Sandals:

Personally, I couldn't stand getting that much sand between my toes.

Anyway, I do feel that weapons and armour could be more authentic. However, this is difficult when it comes to the  short descriptions of items. I'd love to wield a two-handed obsidian whoojibub, but no-one would have a clue what it was. So, perhaps having 'western' short descriptions and then having more detailed authentic-Zalanthian main descriptions is the way to go, which some items do have already. I swear I've seen obsidian longswords being described as having wide, flat blades. If not, then perhaps they should...

I like the idea someone said about Zalanthas being like the world in Stargate. It's nice to hear people making comparisons other than the usual two, of which I personally know very little. I seem to remember it's very sandy, like Allanak.

And one last thing. Being a European player this could be to do with my play times, but I've never actually seen anyone wearing an obsidian breastplate, nor anything made of silt-horror.

[mansa]

So quit chastising code and chastise people. Read all the docs and you'll get the basic feel of a commoner VNPC or a noble VNPC. It's not the Staff at Armageddon that have a problem, rather the players at Armageddon that do.

Why don't you chastise IG it'd be more fun to laugh at a stupid fool for wearing heavy black obsidian armor in the desert.

Then you wearing light sandcloth all bundled up inside can beat the guy up and prove it to them that it's not cool to wear that armor in the desert. It's a bad fashion statement, and it's too hot.

Go tell the Captains down in Allanak that they should quit making you wear this heavy crap.

I'm going to point out something, here.

Sometimes, you can't change how people play the game, inside the game.  You MUST take it to an outside source, and throw in some of your 'trump' cards, in order to prove to other people that your way of thinking is correct.

Immortals do it, by throwing in their 'Immortal' card.  Long time players do it, by throwing in their "Ate a Baby" card.

Here's an Example:

Joe Bynner, who's been promoted to Sergeant, has worked his ass off to get himself a full set of Silt Horror armour.  He's spent all his coins, and killed of tons of NPCs, to finally grab that last piece.  He's going to complete his 'outfit' and then never change it, until the day he dies.  Much like some do, when playing games such as 'Diablo' or 'Everquest'.  He's going to wander around the game, he's going to be teaching other players that his way is the correct way, solely based on his attitude and long life, in the game.

Look at Berlian, and his 'hammers' that he had, when he was around.  Anybody tought by him, also started to use Hammers.  Simply because Berlian was using it, everybody else thought it was the best thing to use.

Now, that Sergeant is WRONG.  He's playing TOTALLY OUT OF WORLD and TOTALLY OUT OF STYLE of the game world.  Do you think the immortals will ask him to remove all the items that he's worked so hard to have?  NO!  Of course NOT!

How do you get it through the mind of the players of the game, that what they've been doing since day 0 is WRONG?

You post on the GDB.  You bring up discussions.  You get immortals to introduce penalities to certain aspects of the game.  It's even harder, when the player in the wrong is playing a Highly Respected role, such as a Tor Noble, or a Kurac Family member.  When they wander around the city in full plate armour, and their massive broadsword and huge bow of UNIQUE gear.   New players look up to these players and will copy them in everyway.

So, I'd like to bring this to the table.  Some people play this game with no care in the world, and others play it with the same love that they would show the Bible or other religious icons.  And when some half-hearted player starts talking shit about that whore whos sleeping her way to the top, the people who love this game will start to get pissed off at the OUT OF CHARACTER playstyle that they are bringing into the game.
[/rant]

[Angela Christine]

Sandals:

Personally, I couldn't stand getting that much sand between my toes.

Not just sand, but harsh, burning hot sand of doom!

I think both the loincloth-and-spiderwebs cloathing style of the Blackwing or Darksun,  and the head-to-toe robes and veils of the Bedoin are perfectly acceptable.  With sandals you have to adapt to burning hot sand splashing on your skin from time to time.  With boots you are protected from direct contact from the sand, but have to adapt to wearing a hot, sweaty, fungal paradise on your feet.  Six of one, half a dozen of the other.



As for worn equipment, I've always been of the opinion that (unless the docs contridict it) the code defines reality.  Things work they way they work because that is the way things work, so I start from the way things are and then try to come up for explanations on how they could work that way.  People are pale?  Ok, there must be a reasonable explanation for pale people.  People are clean?  Ok, then it must be reasonable and somewhat afordable to stay clean (at least by by Zalanthan standards of cleanliness, since everybody smells of dust and sweat no matter what their desc says).   Likewise, heavy equipment that appears to have bonuses without penalties must have some reason for being that way, perhaps it is ventalated or something.  If I CAN be comfortable in armor that looks to be uncomfortable, than I'm likely to wear it because the reality is that it is comfortable.  In the end, the way to change reality is to change the code.  

Currently, the penalties of heavy armor can be avoided with high strength.  You can go around in a blisteringly hot mascot costume (ie. a Mickey Mouse or Big Bird costume) and if you are strong you will not suffer.  Obviously it shouldn't work that way, the ability to endure unpleasant apparel should have more to do with Endurance than Strength.  

The easiest way to adjust reality (the code) is with stamina modifiers.  Ok, this does lead to odities of it's own, like when people sleep in their travelling boots because that is the only way to regenerate all their stamina, but nothing is perfect.  Having people take heat dammage or suffer dehydration for wearing a fur coat would be going too far, you want to use the carrot and the stick, not the carrot and the sledge hammer.  Most warm items could have a penaltiy of 5 stamina or fewer, really absurd items like the dreaded obsidian breastplate might have as much as 10, but no higher than that.  So if you decide to dress like a misplaced Eskimo, heavy fur from head to toe, your total stamina penalty would be around 50 -- that isn't crippling but it is discouraging.  My goal here is to maintain diversity, some people will choose things other than comfort, and if the bonuses and penalties are too large then you wind up with everyone looking the same (like when it seemed that half the people in the known world just happened to choose the backpack design that holds 90 stones, while most other backpacks hold 40-60).

To offset this, I would like to see more "normal cloathing" have small stamina bonuses (less than 5 stamina per item).  Right now, most things that get bonuses are made of sandcloth.  With the right boots, the right cloak, and a few other choice items, it is fairly easy to get a stamina bonus around 50 even while wearing protective armor -- wearing the right boots, the right cloak and normal cloathing should be a little better still.  Sandcloth is the gold standard of desert comfort, but light cotton cloathing should be pretty comfortable too.  I think most commoner cloathing and even most 'rinther cloathing should have small stamina bonuses, sure it looks like shit, smells bad, and is almost worthless, but damn that stuff is comfortable and well broken in.  Choose a cotton vest instead of a leather shirt, you get a bonus of 3 from the vest while the leather shirt had a penalty of 3, so in effect your stamina is 6 higher if you chose the sensible cloathing over the protective apparel.  Not a HUGE difference, but something to gently prod people away from armor they don't need and into more appropriate choices.  

Right now even a merchant who never intends to get into a fight is likely to choose armor, because if they ever do get attacked that armor may buy them a few more seconds to react, and there is no compelling reason to NOT choose armor.  Small but visible bonuses and penalties would make it easier to choose appropriate items.  A mercenary who travels a lot, but travels on kank back rather than on foot, might choose a moderately protective outfit with a total penalty around 20.  A city guard who rarely does more than saunter from the estate to the tavern and back might be willing to take on a 40 or 50 point penalty, sure it is uncomfortable but damn I look good.  A desert elf (or desert human) might choose just a couple of armor items in an outfit with an overall bonus of 40, because their outfit mainly designed to protect them the elements and get them home comfortably rather than stand around fighting all day.  If the lumberjack or freelane miner might choose a good set of gloves and a sturdy helmet with the rest being comfortable cloathing, because if he gets attacked his plan is to scream, drop his load,  and run back to the city, not fight to the death.  A noble or wealthy social climber might choose an outfit that is niether protective nor comfortable, like curly-toed shoes with bells on and a 10 point stamina penalty, simply because they are fasionable and he never expects to need to either run or fight.

I think this sort of statistical behavior modification already takes place, to some extent.  I remember buying a certain kind of robe that looked comfortable but had a 10 point stamina penalty.  Ok, it might have been a bug, but at the time I assumed it was designed that way on purpose because only a certain kind of person should be buying and wearing those robes, and a minor stamina penalty will discourage the public at large without crippling the sort of person who is supposed to wear that item.


The only real downside would be that someone would have to go through every wearable item in the database by hand and decide which items should have penalites (worse than naked) which should have bonuses (better than naked) and which would have no noticable affect at all.  A fur coat would probably have a penalty, but a small item like a fur wristwrap or a bit of fur trim might not have a noticable affect.  Most sandcloth shirts should have a small bonus, but a sandcloth friendship bracelet probably wouldn't be particularily helpful.  



* * *

On a lighter note, I have ICly made fun of people in other games for wearing plate armor all the time, because a walking metal out-house is funny looking.  Wearing a small shed all day, every day doesn't make sense in any world.  


AC

[Comrade Canadia]

*cracks knuckles*  

<long winded>

Comrade...Fantasy is Based off Reality. People may think Armageddon is fantasy, but I'm willing to bet ever piece of code on the game came about because of a reality not because someone said it'd be more fantasy like to include this.

I disagree.  Countless objects have been removed since the start of the mud because they did not fit.  People always have put objects in because they thought they would be 'cool', without mind for what is appropriate to Zalanthas or not.  I don't think this is a problem just with the imms, I think the it's the mud in general.  I refuse to point fingers.  Players are as responsible for the development of the mud over the years as the staff.

Saying that every single object that's in the game makes realistic sense in relation to the world is... well, just wrong.  The imms have a PROJECT asking players to report objects they feel are inappropriate.  I'm just an extremist about this.

So quit chastising code and chastise people. Read all the docs and you'll get the basic feel of a commoner VNPC or a noble VNPC. It's not the Staff at Armageddon that have a problem, rather the players at Armageddon that do.

Why don't you chastise IG it'd be more fun to laugh at a stupid fool for wearing heavy black obsidian armor in the desert.

First off, how do you know I'm not working on this in game?  You don't know who I play.  However, no matter what i"m doing in game - ooc steps must be taken as well.  Frankly, VERY LITTLE changes in game anyways.  Most of the big changes to armag have happened over the years have occured because of ooc initiative, not ic.

This 'Take it in game' argument only solves a small amount of the problem.  The changes HAVE to occur out of game in order to affect things in game.

Then you wearing light sandcloth all bundled up inside can beat the guy up and prove it to them that it's not cool to wear that armor in the desert. It's a bad fashion statement, and it's too hot.

This will solve nothing and you know that.

Now.... Laeris - I'll respond to what you said now.  *grin*

Not that I'm jumping in on one side or another, but I would be hesitant to conclude that simply because something is hard and heavy and protective that it does not provide adequate ventilation. That could very well be a faulty assumption.

Well, I can think of countless heavy armour objects that have miserable ventilation.   And even if they -were- decently ventilated, I'd still say that covering your entire body in this armour is a bad idea.

Heavy armour has never, EVER been worn as a full body covering in a desert by any culture in the history of the universe.  Zalanthians might be tougher, but their desert is harsher, so I think it balances out.  Just pieces of heavy armour?  Sure!  I can think of many examples of this style of armour, and it makes sense to me.  Just try to convince a player to NOT fill a basic wearlocation like their torso with that shiny breastplate.

Could an immortal say, without a shadow of a doubt that  heavy armour in general IS appropriate to Zalanthas... especially Allanak, and then give a convincing argument?  If so, I'll shut up and go home.  I suppose my other suggestions are going to be ignored here so I'll skip on them and concentrate on the armour.

The REASON my argument here is so... well, fervent is that I feel that game worlds need a specific, narrow focus in order to become truly awesome.  I have never liked Zalanthas.  I like the depth of roleplay and awesome players and BRILLIANT code on the mud.  The world has always been an exercise in everyone pretending that they're somehow different from western fantasy, and then utterly failing because of how much western fantasy we bring to the mud.

Again, weapons and armour are what -define- a fantasy world's aesthetic, no matter how much we'd like to pretend otherwise.  Our weapons and armour are ganked RIGHT out of the D&D player's handbook, and then metal is swapped for bone, wood, obsidian, and chitin.  Not only have we done this with -rarely- actually thinking about the properties of the materials we're using, we do this without thinking about the geography and climate that caused people to make these items in the first place.

Armag's attempt to make this vivid, brutal desert world has been sabotaged again, and again, and again.  If it's a very hot day in Allanak, and I see someone whistling as they stroll down the road in a full suit of silt horror... I'm no longer in armag.  How can I be?  The entire BRUTAL HARSH DESERT no longer exists to me.  When I think that sort of armour, I think it's armag's equivalent to plate mail!

...

Why is there plate mail in the harshiest harsh that ever did harsh?  Well, because formal armour of mighty troops has always been plate mail!  IN WESTERN EUROPE.  Full, elaborate suits of silt horror are -obviously- armag's equivalent to plate mail.  It's all about 'armag's equivalent' to something in western fantasy.  Why do we want an equivalent to plate mail?  Are we so unimaginative that we can't think of our own formal wear for troops without blindly snagging whatever convention western fantasy uses?  We're in a desert!  Things are different!

The game is awesome, the game is great... but the world can be magnificent if we stop diluting it and focus narrowly on a -defining- aesthetic.  Just because Dark Sun was successful doesn't mean anything about that world made sense.  Dark Sun was a lousy game world and we've differed ourselves from it in countless ways because of that fact.  

ANYWAYS.  I've gone on long enough.  Please, school me and tell me to shut up if I'm -wrong- about this.  "I don't feel there's any problem" isn't good enough if there aren't reasons offered.  Anyways, I've gone on for long enough.  DISCUSS.  I will attempt to do what I can in game, as well as out until I'm told to stop *grin*

</long winded>

-Dave

[Comrade Canadia]

Oh, and Angela - your comment about sandals was well reasoned.  I'd still like to see more sandals in game, but that makes sense to me so I'll drop them from my list of ranty things.  Thanks for reasoning some of the things I've said with a degree of coherency.   Never been a strong point of mine  :lol:

-Dave

[Dracul]

Well I could see a crazy vivudian in full suit of silt armor.

Thats ah...bout it. Logically.

[joyofdiscord]

I am pretty new to this mud, but I tend to agree with some of the points brought up.  Wood/bone as material for slashing weapons has always seemed a bit odd to me.  Piercing, bludgeoning, even chopping, fine, yes.  A stout wooden "sword" tapered down to even a blunt edge is still going to hurt like ever living hell if you crack someone with the blunt edge.

I don't know a lot about the properties of obsidian, except that it can get pretty sharp (and even flint, too), but stone also chips readily, which is a big impediment to a decent slashing weapon.  In any case, the idea of slicing someone up with a wooden or bone-edged weapon, while not unimaginable, just seems very difficult, time-consuming, and horrifically violent to me.  Yeah, maybe Zalanthan wood is super-hard and you can polish it down to a razor-sharp edge.  Then, of course, we really have to question the whole harshness thing.  Zalanthans don't have metal, but what does that really mean if, instead of busting their asses in mines to pull out ore and smelt it, then labor in front of a hot forge, they can just pull some super-hard, super-dense wood out of the forest and cut it down to size?  Doesn't sound so harsh to me.

I, personally, will definitely be paying more attention to the Zalanthan heat in the future, as I agree that no matter how adapted Zalanthans are, they are going to feel pretty hot from time to time.

[Dan]

Seems no one here has taken into account that some areas of the unknown world are *gasp* cold. So by going there in these fur coats and such should actually be giving a bonus, but if this change went into play then they would not.

[Dracul]

Seems no one here has taken into account that some areas of the unknown world are *gasp* cold. So by going there in these fur coats and such should actually be giving a bonus, but if this change went into play then they would not.

Lol...right. (okay seroulsy...don't correct me.)
but for that case...there could be area flags...which might be a big encumberance of code...but...Im doubting the need.

[Dan]

Mayby I am blind, but I am doubting the need for any coded change whatsoever. If anything it really should not be a high priority.

[Spoon]

I think what this post was getting at was the styles of armour and weapons, not the fact that penalties should be given in heat etc. Which has been discussed far too many times already...

So no chitin full helms, bone-mail, wooden gauntlets or obsidian jock-straps.

[Cuusardo]

I am still trying to wrap my brain around why a silk blouse or vest gives stamina penalties, yet you can wear a full suit of plate mail and suffer no staminal pentalties.

[RunningMountain]

Please be sensitive to the word "plate mail" I doubt that anyone on Zalanthas is fully armored in plate mail. Whether it's bone or wood or whatever.

[Cuusardo]

I had a character that wore full plate mail as a uniform.  So yes, there are people on Zalanthas who wear full plate.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I disagree with getting too picky about heavy armor.  I wouldn't mind seeing some stamina penalties applied, but aside from that, let's look at one of the basic ideas presented in close detail.  The assertion is that heavy armor would cause dehydration at a faster rate.  In order to assert that, we have to prove that whatever causes dehydration occurs more with heavier armor on.  Fair enough; it's caused by sweating more.  Warm-blooded creatures sweat as a way to regulate temperature.  Temperature regulation is required in order to maintain a lower body temperature than the outside environment, or to shed excess heat generated by the body due to action.  In order to eliminate as many variables as possible, let's assume that we have the same level of activitiy with or without the heavy armor.

This leaves us with only regulation of temperature because the body is operating at a lower temperature than the environment.  This is almost certainly true; the extreme heats that Zalanthas exhibits are significantly higher than the body temperature of Earth mammals, for example.  However, we also have to assume that Zalanthan warmbloods are either a) operating a much higher body temperature and are required to regulate less b) have naturally superior insulation to heat or c) have more efficient temperature regulation, or some combination of the three, or some other adaptation I haven't listed.

At this point, I think we've adequately illustrated the heart of the problem.  To say that an obsidian breastplate would be hotter than cloth is certainly true, but it's true because we're applying Earth-physics and Earth-rules and Earth-sensibility to the situation.  In order to say that a Zalanthan dwarf would be more dehydrated by an obsidian breastplate, you'd have to know a lot more about the biological and physical characteristics of said dwarf.  How heat-insulating is dwarf skin?  What's the actual humidity of Zalanthan air?  How cooling is sweat?  What's the dwarf's default body temperature?  How much heat does the dwarf's metabolism generate?

You can't answer those questions any more than I can, which is to say, speculating on how that heavy obsidian breastplate would affect the physiology of that dwarf is just that - mere speculation.  It's not that it's a bad question, but it's unanswerable.  If we assume that the rules of Earth-physics apply, we still don't know what variables to plug in.  And of course, the rules may not even apply.

I'll agree that it certainly -seems- illogical to see someone tromping around clad head to toe in chitin, and I wouldn't mind seeing a few little penalties applied in order to discourage this sort of behaviour, or at least to balance it out a bit.  Beyond that, I'm willing to exercise my suspension of disbelief.  It's nice to make Earth-real and Zalanthan-real match up to a large extent, because it adds that "gritty realism."  At the same time, you can only match it up to a certain point, because once you delve too far into the science, Zalanthas starts to fall apart, and has to rely on its own virtual version of reality.  I believe that this is one of those times.

[Rhyden]

Pieces of heavy armour?  Sure!  Remember those Greek gladiators?  Maybe a heavy shoulder piece, greaves and a shield?  Swank.  That works in hot weather.  A full suit?  NO.  Granted, players don't flock to this kind of armour all of the time, but it's still very common in the game world when... I truly don't think it should be.

All Zalanthians have adopted to be more resistant to climate conditions that 'we' would generally not be. Zalanthians are bigger, stronger and can endure the weather way more than any Earthling can. I think there was a past post more generalized around this topic, perhaps somebody could dig it up? Anyways, I'm sure it's in the helpfiles as well, but I'm too lazy to even dig that up. Cheers!

[Agent_137]

Holy shit, JollyGreenGiant made a full length solid, non-humorous post.

I've lost so much faith in the world.

:cry:


In related news, I agree with him.

Let's just stick with the obvious. It's hotter than cloth, heavier than cloth. Add a stamina penalty here and there and move on.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

Sandals in the cities will work, or someone who keeps all the time on their mounts. But walking/fightin/moving in the deserts with very hot sand running about your bare feet, with the hot sands baking your toes nice and crisp? No thanks.

[Spoon]

With half-giants stomping around? I'll stick to my obsidian plated doc martins.

Ahem. Yes, I agree, sadals would be fine in cities. Socks and sandals, however, will never fit in ANYWHERE.

[Comrade Canadia]

The climate issue has been addressed already, and repeatedly.  If Zalanthians are so tough they can cover their entire bodies with heavy, non-porous material in 150 weather... then there's no point to this being a desert.  

Seriously, why make a desert if we're immune to the heat?  That's ridiculous.  Zalanthians can LIVE in this horrible environment while an earth human would probably die very quickly - that's where their extra toughness comes into play.  Not in making them immune to the effects of heat.

Anyone else think slings are cool?  Seriously.  Their cheap and kill things.  What's not to love?

-Dave

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Comrade Canadia wrote:

Anyone else think slings are cool? Seriously. Their cheap and kill things. What's not to love?

Yes! Yes, slings are very cool. And I have a lot to say on the subject, but I accidentally put it in the wrong thread, 'cause I'm like that.
FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit wrote:

I hope you all don't mind if I give a dead horse one final, swift kick to the kidneys, but I have to mention the issue of slings.
They are, to put it simply, not where they should be.
A stone fired from a sling would be very painful to an adult human, and could cause a serious wound, even if a fatal one, if it hit a vital area like the neck or head. If you can get those little pebbles to a high enough speed, they are very capable of cracking a skull.
Of course, most people would probably prefer a bow or crossbow for long-range combat with versus other humans. Fair enough. Bows and espicially crossbows are more practical for that use. A sling's main purpose, after all, would probably be for the hunting of small game.
A pebble fired from a sling should utterly decimate a rat or vestric, and would seriously slow down a gurth or tandu. This, however, is simply not the case, IG.
Here's a short list of reasons why I think slings aren't used much:
-The code is a bit clunky, mainly the fact that you have to unequip a sling before you can reload. This is not my main concern, however. After all, slings aren't really made to fire a barrage of stones in a short period of time, like a war bow can.
-One of the major benefits of getting a sling is that it uses a cheap, lightweight ammo. Unfortunately, when the ammo does run out, it gets ICly awkward having to look for more. When your character bends down, looking for a small, round pebble to throw into his sling and resume combat with, he quite often comes up with a head-sized chunk of sandstone, much to the player's chagrin. I don't think a 'forage stone' or a 'forage ammo' command would be too out of line.
-One of the major drawbacks to slings is that have seriously stunted damage. All missile weapons do for playability purposes, of course. But slings are so weak that they have been rendered basically useless. One time I had a sling-wielding character who spotted a vestric, and began whipping stones at it. Realistically, a single stone fired from a sling would be enough to shatter a vestric's hollow little bones. My character, however, launched five stones into it, and the little beast was still standing. Frustrated, he chased it down, and when the vestric began to tire out, my character looked at it, and saw it was still in 'excellent' condition.
I'd also like to add that this same vestric went on to 'viscously peck' my poor character's neck.
-On the issue of ammo once again, it seems as if every PC in Zalanthas is obsessive-compulsive when it comes to selecting rocks. Many 'pebble' and 'stone' objects that, at a glance, seem like they could be used in a sling can't. When you read their mdesc, however, it mentions something about it being slightly uneven, or grainy. My response is... so what? You can still try to fire it. Clearly, it won't hit as accurately or do as much damage as the ideal, perfectly spherical marble of doom, but it should do in a pinch.
My point is, it'd be nice if more stones were coded as 'fireable', even if they are not the ideal ammunition.
-Also, as for all those times you succeed at forage, but fail to find the thing you were looking for, I wonder why my character can't just slam that hunk of jasper onto the ground, pick up the shards, and then start shooting. Rocks can already by broken down to a certain degree, but for some reason, then never seem to flake off into pebbles. The major argument against this, I'd guess, is that a block of granite, succesfully cut, would be produce a huge amount of fireable pebbles. My response to this is: so what? Yeah, Zalanthas is harsh, but is it having-to-choose-between-water-and-your-precious-ordinary-pebbles harsh? Should dull, ordinary rocks be a rare commodity?
It might be nice if fireable stones just came up more often in the 'forage' randomization. Right now, you seem to get an equal number of jasper cinderblocks (a semi-precious stone) as you do granite pebbles. If you made getting fireable rocks more common, that poor sling-user who spams 'forage rocks', trying to get something to shoot before that gurth re-heals, might have something to show for his efforts.
-There are certain RP implications that make slings annoying. For example, it's hard to 'swiftly' load and fire a sling, what with the swinging it overhead and all. Also, let's say you fire a stone at a jozhal standing on a sand dune. The stone misses, and the jozhal runs away. Your character could not, realistically, walk up the sand dune, bend over, and pick up the tiny rock among a mountain of sand, could they?
Little things like this are tedious, but are part of the nature of slings, and not really a 'problem' in my eyes. You could always just ignore the RP implications of a sling, and treat it like a smaller, cheaper bow. Sort of like how people like to pretend crossbows are stronger, fancier bows.
-It would nice to see more than one kind of sling.
With that said, here are some concessions I'm willing to make:
-It is possible that the characters I have used slings with had too low an archery skill to make full use of the weapon.
-You could always make them too good. For example, you could make ammo more accesible and make the damage higher, but if you do, you might see a lot of people walking around with slings, and even using them in on the battlefield or similar, questionable places.
-A change to slings might cause a rippling effect of other balances, which could make 'archery' itself overpowered. Or underpowered.
That about it does it for now. Comments?

[Agent_137]

Five monkeys, I like all you have to say, except:

-It would nice to see more than one kind of sling.

There is more than one kind of sling. Though, in my time, I've only seen one type sold in shops.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would like to see heavy armor sap MP, while normal clothings do nothing to it, and desert gear give you MP. Beyond that, I have nothing against anything in Armageddon. It is a fantasy world, thus, suspend your disbelief and deal with the fact that swords are just fucking cool. I would, however, like to see some more unusual names for things, however. This would add to the mistique.

[halfhuman]

I've seen slings before in arm. I didn't buy it though.  Too bad, they're soo bad ass.

Anyways, I wanna see one of these bad baby's in a shop somewhere:

(I tried multiple times to make the fecker smaller but it failed. Just look at a klingon klak-djar on google or something. That's basically what it looked like.)

Only of course it'd be chitin, or obsidian or something.

[Teleri]

Personally, I would like to see more "Zalanthan" weapons used instead of European arms made out of obsidian or bone.  Most Asian weapons don't set the proper theme, in my opinion.  Katars, tiger claws, staves, clubs/maces, and spears are all from that region that truly belong, I believe.  The problem with making weapons that feel more Zalanthan is that there's really no way we can concieve of them completely, as equivalents aren't really existant in our world.

Although many people have a great connection and facination with them, swords could be done away with to add to the unique theme of the game.  Eliminating the weapons, however, is problematic.  Perhaps the means to produce such blades would be lost in some sort of catastrophy befalling the Salarri and other arms makers.  Without knowing exactly how to strike obsidian/bone to produce a sword blade (which is hard in the first place, I would imagine, without the whole thing shattering), few are produced.  Swords made of obsidian and bone become rare, and are thus confiscated from all who are not of noble birth or serving nobles/cities.  Only wooden swords are left, and these, of course, don't hold an edge very well, despite the unique hardness of Zalanthan lumber.  The new swords become knives, which are far easier to make as they do not require so much raw material and through making one you do not run such a high risk of the whole shard shattering.  Just a thought.

More scimitars would definitely boost the desert atmosphere of the game.  To me, nothing says harsh desert life like a scimitar, especially one made out of a mandible or edged with glass/obsidian shards.  Speaking of which, Aztec or Mayan weapons should be some great guidelines for Zalanthan weapons, as they use roughly the same materials.  Weapons of Zalanthas should not be as streamlined as they seem to be, in my opinion, save for those owned by nobility or merchant houses.  Instead, they should more accurately reflect the harsh reality of the desert through their curves, wicked edges, and the crude manner of their creation.  

From what I have seen, there is no problem with the armor styles in the game, except for the fact that many people don't follow the guidelines of their region.  The style of Tuluk's guards has a very unique feel to it that I like, but I'm not sure about the Militia in the south.  What irks me is when I come across some random dude in the desert decked out in full shell/chitin, who tries to pass as a hunter of small desert animals.  As I read on a site about Armageddon (I think it had "White Wolf" in it somewhere), that's a pretty ridiculous get-up for hunting.  One really only needs some light leather or sandcloth to go against most usually-hunted creatures, unless one is going against some huge predator...which they very well may be.  But then, you're probably wanting to go with a lot of other people dressed similarly...and with a lot bigger weapons.

I would like to see more slings, and an increased usage of these weapons in certain areas of the world, especially in the south.  Bows are better, it is true, but slings are overall more affordable and probably more reliable.  Arrows are expensive as hell and hard to make, but stones are all over the place.  Bows (realistically) take hours or days to make, but slings take a couple hours at most...for a really good one.  But, I'm not a bowyer or hunter IRL, so what the hell do I know.  For that matter, neither are many of us here, no matter how much we posture, so what the hell do most of us know.

[halfhuman]

I disagree.  I mean, sure stone swords would be hard to make, but look at Michaelangelo?  I don't think there was much of a risk of him cracking the David while he carved it.  You'd just need to find the right stones really. I nice large stone that wasn't cracked and was very "straight grained" to throw a lumber term into there, if it even applies.  Bone swords seem like a much better idea though, assuming theres a ready supply of bones large enough to build a sword out of.  Chitin, you'd think would not be flat enough to make a blade out of, unless it was a mandible (which is one big fecking mandible)

Anyways, I've read a couple different threads about hunter getup.  It IS unrealistic to wear all that plate and heavy armor while hunting most things, but there is also the contingency that you'll be spotted by something else (like a silt horror or something)  I agree that you wouldn't wear full plate, but I think studded type armor wouldn't be overly unrealistic, depending on the area you're hunting in.  Heavy plate would only be somewhat realistic if you were gonna head off to the salt flats to hunt a mek.

I read one guy that said his ranger wore a loincloth and sandles or something.  That's not very good desert wear either.  I was in Boy Scouts, and they said that on a hike you'd want long sleeves and long pants to avoid sunburn, and getting cut on underbrush (though I doubt you'd have to worry about that last one in Zalanthas)  My ranger wore a cloak, long pants, long shirt, gloves, a wide brimmed hat, and a face wrap to keep from getting sunburned.  I think that that's a very realistic get up for someone frequently wandering the desert. It may be hotter than a loincloth, but it protects your ninies from whipping sand and sunburn.

Ranger weapons? I think an axe would be a good choice, because you'd want something heavy to crush through protective chitin.

[Xamminy]

Just because this is set in a desert-like environment similar to the mid-east does not mean that we couldn't have weapons like other times and places in human history.  I have little problem with that.

The armor, the most notable one being the obsidian breastplate, though.  Damn, I mean, it's gotta take one tough bastard to survive wearing that in the desert for more than ten minutes.

[Teleri]

Perhaps there should be less of the "right type of stone" available, then.  After all, there can't be an infinite supply of sword-worthy obsidian, and that which is currently in supply would be dwindling due to greed of merchants and consumption of broken weapons.  Also, obsidian is, as I would imagine, a lot harder to accurately shape than the stone that The David is made out of.  Now if The David was made out of glass or obsidian, that would be a whole hell of a lot more impressive.  Were Michaelangelo to have the option, though, I don't think he'd make his sculpture out of obsidian.  Not only because of supply problems, but because it's hard to shape the volcanic glass.

Mandible weapons would be possible.  After all, there are some pretty freakin big bugs out there with ultra-strength carapaces.

[the not signed in half]

I should know that there are plenty of big bugs too. I get eaten by most of them.  

if you carve carefully and slowly enough, I don't think you'd be at too much of a risk of breaking it.  I've made knives before IRL and instead of powergrinding them sharp, we filed them down by hand with an instrument that looks like a glorified nail filer.