Quote from: Valkyrja on September 02, 2024, 08:31:10 PMDon't care if my leaders ERP as long as they're doing their leader thing, too. Whatever makes the role fun within the confines of consent and docs. Sometimes it's cool to be a badass boss bitch and also bang, whatever, cool.

And yeah ultimately I think what some fems seem to be expressing is that the targeting around ERP seems to only negatively effect fem PCs/players. That had been my experience as a player, too. Never seen a masc PC get dragged for mudsexing personally. Guess how often I saw women scandalized or gossiped about because of it? Many.

I don't necessarily think that's the intention of the thread or players here, but it's worth mentioning that this game has a history of misogyny. That's true of any online space or game community, I just think people forget about it if they aren't the marginalized demographic. FWIW I haven't really seen any of that since coming on staff, which has been a pleasant surprise.

I can tell you from my experience from being on staff a long time, that whenever "someone ERPs too much" is brought up, it's about men 75% of the time.  Whenever I hear "all I ever see that person doing is ERP", it's about men 75% of the time.  Whenever I hear someone associated with ERP in a negative way, it's almost always men.  Maybe from your perspective it seems like it's more often about women, but from where I sit I have not observed that.  As someone who's had to deal with more than a few players over the years about this topic, it has been predominantly men.  That said, I'm sure a lot of that has to do with our population breakdown, though, as it's surely predominantly men who play?

In my opinion this notion that women are targeted for.. I guess ERP bashing?.. does not stack up to the amount I've observed.  I've had to have conversations with a handful of players about ERP over the years, and all but one was men.  So I dunno, maybe I'm misunderstanding this? I can concede that.  My gut tells me this notion that women are more targeted for ERP bashing is simply incorrect, but maybe I'm not following what you guys mean.

All of that said....  we're not going to outlaw leaders from ERP, that idea was dead on arrival.

The negative consequence from slut shaming effecting women primarily is an effect of misogyny. I've seen men get comments about how much they mudsex, but it's never resulted in that PC being targeted for assassination or ostracized socially within the game. For women? It's often.

The existing double standard about sexual promiscuity which unjustly seeps into the game due to players' bigory is another good example of how ERP negatively impacts the game.

Quote from: Lotion on September 02, 2024, 08:56:51 PMThe existing double standard about sexual promiscuity which unjustly seeps into the game due to players' bigory is another good example of how ERP negatively impacts the game.

Hah, touche'

Quote from: Valkyrja on September 02, 2024, 08:53:44 PMThe negative consequence from slut shaming effecting women primarily is an effect of misogyny. I've seen men get comments about how much they mudsex, but it's never resulted in that PC being targeted for assassination or ostracized socially within the game. For women? It's often.

This. This is precisely what I am talking about. The notion that an NPC would be animated to come call a male PC whore two dozen times and threaten lying about their sexual activity to a superior is laughable. The idea that later in the day that the exact same (also female) PC would have a bartender animated to tell their mate that they were having sex publicly in the Gaj roasting pits with someone who they were job interviewing (with witnesses, and the staffer knew they were not because they were animating the failed NPC stick up)... is laughable.

How many male PCs have had a random PC who has never had a conversation with them die in the Arena yelling to all of Allanak that they kanked their PC? None that I know of. But I've had a female PC (Heim's mate actually) who had this happen. There are plenty of examples of where women are marginalized in sexual areas in this game in an unfair double standard and catch shit for it IC where it makes no sense. I don't think there's an OOC stigma against ERP that male PCs or male PCs are seeing one over the other, there might be.

I'm very concerned about the weird ways that sexual activities get bad PR for female PCs IC that it shouldn't and that if the character was male it would be laughable. I don't like that and that part smacks of misogyny. And yes it has not happened recently to me. But it has a history of being an issue, which is why people who have had it be an issue in that past are hypervigilant about how it might look coming up in the future.

Quote from: Lotion on September 02, 2024, 08:56:51 PMThe existing double standard about sexual promiscuity which unjustly seeps into the game due to players' bigory is another good example of how ERP negatively impacts the game.

I would rather lay the blame at the feet of the players who are not adhering to our community and fair play standards.

As someone who makes mudsex jokes all the time, I say let them eat cake. I don't care. Any player who mudsexes all the time (outside of leadership positions) is still contributing to the game for those who have meaningful relationships with their PCs. Relationship RP is one of my favorite aspects of roleplay, regardless of medium. Sex is a part of intimacy for many people, faded or played out.

That babe might be keeping indie hunter Amos in the game because there's no one else to RP at prime time for them and it just so happens they like to ERP. They might do other stuff to effect the story for others at different times.

How do long sessions of ERP contribute to the game more than fade to black? Seriously, I am asking out of a lack of understanding.

I have some pcs who do/have done ERP and some who do/have done the one relationship thing. Difficult to talk about any sort of sexism, because there are RL men who play women and RL women who play men. No way any shenanigans about this can be fairly determined, imo.

Quote from: Drov on September 02, 2024, 09:34:10 PMHow do long sessions of ERP contribute to the game more than fade to black? Seriously, I am asking out of a lack of understanding.

I'm assuming these players are doing things other than ERP during their time logged in, and if the activity of two months ago vs the activity of today is any indication - more people playing = better.

If they enjoy doing that during their free time and it encourages them to be online? Send it.

Quote from: Drov on September 02, 2024, 09:34:10 PMHow do long sessions of ERP contribute to the game more than fade to black? Seriously, I am asking out of a lack of understanding.

I think in general people need variety in their play experience to have fun. Some people get variety in different ways. If they achieve variety in their play experience by also ERPing, more power to them - it keeps them engaged with their PC longer and contributing to other stories, most likely.

Y'all know that many people into kink also have normal lives, too - right?  They're not just... in the dungeon the whole time, heh. Except for Greg. Greg needs to be watered once a day.

(Not directed any anyone in particular, just making a joke.)

I think there's some confusion in this very thread. We have one person referring to NPCs calling PCs whores - and that males don't get that kind of shit from females.

And the rest of the thread appears to be referring to the players, not the characters.  ERP is an OOC thing. PC relationships is an IC thing.  Characters have sex with each other. It's kind of a given, considering that characters were all born, and sex was somehow involved in the process.

But PLAYERS acting out the sexual event - is what makes it ERP. I don't know anyone who is slut-shaming the players in the game. And if they are, they should be complained about, since players don't exist in the game. Separation of player behavior vs. character behavior gets very confused and convoluted when it comes to sex.

If people want to type out erotic text in the game with each other - whatever. Keep it as ICly private as you can, make sure there's consent. And if you're playing a character who has a responsibility to other players - plotlines, jobs, tasks performed OR meted out - that you aren't just ignoring everything else in favor of your erp sessions.

I don't think of that request as misogynistic at all, I don't think the concern is either. I don't know if the player behind the character is male or female half the time, and I really don't care beyond a general curiosity. I also don't care if it's a male or female character who is boinking a male or female character. A dude playing a woman who has sex with another woman played by a non-binary person - I mean really it can get pretty silly if you really want to go down that rabbit hole. Obsessing about ERP is - a bit strange, whether you're the one doing it, or the one complaining about it. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the event doesn't replace the entire rest of the game play, because this isn't a sex-focused game.

There is an age old adage that comes from a long line of Shaolin Monks, or Templars or something...goes like:

"Life is the easiest and simplest when you mind your own business and are not distracted by anything else."

And for everyone else:

"Listen, smile, agree, and then do whatever the fuck you were gonna do anyway" – Robert Downey Jr.

Just to mention for giggles.


I've arranged deaths of 3 people, assassinated 2 with my own character, died twice, endured once, was captured by templar 2 times, caused an alliance between ATV and Akai Skir, provoked another elf into going hostile and losing support of someone Very Powerful, recruited countless spies from aides, assistants, merchants, nobles. Had best of friends turn into bitter enemies. Betrayed clans, betrayed friends, caused others to commit betrayal for my sake. Talked someone into willingly accepting being ritually sacrificed. Tried, but failed to create an alliance with Gith. Leveraged someone into going into enemy city asking questions that A. Got them dissapeared and B. Warned the person I wanted to be warned.

All of that and probably more, was done with romance as a storytelling tool.  And it was played out more often then faded.


Last thing I would give a shit about is some other random player judging how I spend my time playing.

Dont like it? Fire/kill/replace/get me replaced. 

ERP is boogeyman more than actual spooky ghost on Armageddon these days. More people assume it's happening than it is actually happening, in my experience, by a pretty large margin.

But even if it is happening, so what? There's a million other things on Armageddon that people do that isn't interactive and is a lot more questionable, a lot more boring than some one on one descriptive roleplay.

Your solo foraging. Your low-emote, low-effort sparring. Your haggling. Your sneak/hide skill increasing. Your animal hunting without a group of 3 or more.

Where's the complaints about this stuff? Anyone holding these weird conservative double-standards needs to take a little time and self examine before they post or suggest this nonsense.

Quote from: Halaster on September 02, 2024, 08:47:06 PMIn my opinion this notion that women are targeted for.. I guess ERP bashing?.. does not stack up to the amount I've observed.  I've had to have conversations with a handful of players about ERP over the years, and all but one was men.  So I dunno, maybe I'm misunderstanding this? I can concede that.  My gut tells me this notion that women are more targeted for ERP bashing is simply incorrect, but maybe I'm not following what you guys mean.

I'm a player that has an old bad account note directly about who my character was (presumed by the staffer to be) having sex with. IIRC from when we discussed this type of account note in Discord, it was other female players or players of female PCs noting that they had these account notes.

The conversation about ERP often goes hand in hand with derision of "silky" PCs and "tressy-tressed aides" who are assumed to have "banged their way to the top." I've truly never seen an instance IC or OOC of a male PC or male player being denigrated over ERP. I've seen it lots of times toward female players or players of female PCs. I do think this is a situation where if you have not ever regularly played female PCs you're not going to understand the experience. I wish I could say that RL biases and sexism are no longer present in Armageddon MUD, but that would absolutely be a lie. Very little has changed in the way that female PCs are treated in game now versus 15 years ago.

My point about sexism and ERP really has to do with activities and PCs that are femme-coded in the game being treated with derision. Femme-coded activities include tavern sitting and other purely social behaviors; crafts that aren't related to combat; playing a noble (not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers); playing an aide; artistic pursuits; romantic relationships; emotionally-supportive friendships; NOT competing over things; being nice; etc. Yes, this is Armageddon and it's a harsh world blah blah blah but there's no world where femme-coded activities don't have actual value.

Quote from: Valkyrja on September 02, 2024, 08:31:10 PMNever seen a masc PC get dragged for mudsexing personally.

I know, right? Like, I'm /waiting/ to be gossiped about here! (Meant to be lighthearted.)

Leaders should ftb their sweaty grunts and punching and wrasslin' on ruff circle day while we're at it.

I'd like to remind everyone that when discussing your opinions on changes you'd like to see or addressing issues, it's most productive to focus on what's happening in the game now. Complaining about things that happened historically doesn't really help us move forward if we've already fixed them or if they are no longer issues.

On topic, leadership players have enough responsibilities. I don't intend to try and tell them what they should be doing in their 'free', character development time. If you feel leadership PCs aren't present enough for whatever reason, then you can always reach out to us and we can look into it. At the end of the day, this is a game and they are people playing the game, they ought be having fun and they can't be around 24/7. Sometimes it will just take a hot minute to get a leader's attention because they are busy, but they are entitled to their down time play as much as anyone, whatever that may look like.

I think there's a fundamental flaw in the initial argument, and it is the implication that staff have any right to micromanage a player's time, as if staff are employers and the players of leadership roles engaging in ERP are doing the Armageddon equivalent of staring at a blank Excel sheet when the boss walks in. That's entirely the wrong way to look at this. Leadership comes with some basic expectations, but beyond that we want players to have autonomy. Telling players what they can and can't do with their time flies in the face of staff's "yes, and" and "no, but" approach to staffing.

I think that if leadership PC time is truly considered valuable, then we should trust the players in those roles to use that highly valued time in the way that they deem best, and we should not concern ourselves with anything beyond that unless they are breaking the rules of the game.

The dynamic between staff and players in leadership roles should simply be that of support. I want to know when the leadership in my clans are struggling with stuff that makes their role feel more job-like and less like fun.

Quote from: Halaster on September 02, 2024, 08:47:06 PMIn my opinion this notion that women are targeted for.. I guess ERP bashing?.. does not stack up to the amount I've observed.  I've had to have conversations with a handful of players about ERP over the years, and all but one was men.  So I dunno, maybe I'm misunderstanding this? I can concede that.  My gut tells me this notion that women are more targeted for ERP bashing is simply incorrect, but maybe I'm not following what you guys mean.

This is what people mean when they talk about privilege. Halaster, you put in a lot of work for this game and I respect that more than anything about you. But there's a blind spot if you've NEVER encountered these attitudes in all your time staffing.

I once played a BTA (big tiddy aide) with a rather... piquing description. There were reasons I made that choice but they was soon overshadowed by the amount of baggage, assumptions and EXPLICIT sexism that character encountered. At the time I litigated my ooc complaints as having to do with overbearing clan leaders, pk culture and ooc cheating. But looking back there's no doubt in my mind misogynistic assumptions about my character played a role.

I've played a wide variety of characters. Complaints of misogyny and sexism wouldn't normally factor in 95% of them. But for some weird reason (Aide + Fme desc + ??mudsex??) seems to break people's minds. It's like it isn't even the same game.

I do not know what 'femme-coded' means, but all of those things you listed are things I see both male and female PC's do every day. In fact, I myself have played male pc's that are primarily craft or city bound tavern sitters. Maybe a player or two has gotten all 'up in my face' with their combat-oriented PC once in a while, but I assumed that was just RP. Not derisive. Not being argumentative. I just have not experienced the same issues some of you seem to be having, or perhaps I am blind to it somehow. BTW, I am NOT a new player.

Quote from: Inky on September 03, 2024, 08:06:37 AM

Quote from: Halaster on September 02, 2024, 08:47:06 PMIn my opinion this notion that women are targeted for.. I guess ERP bashing?.. does not stack up to the amount I've observed.  I've had to have conversations with a handful of players about ERP over the years, and all but one was men.  So I dunno, maybe I'm misunderstanding this? I can concede that.  My gut tells me this notion that women are more targeted for ERP bashing is simply incorrect, but maybe I'm not following what you guys mean.

This is what people mean when they talk about privilege. Halaster, you put in a lot of work for this game and I respect that more than anything about you. But there's a blind spot if you've NEVER encountered these attitudes in all your time staffing.

I once played a BTA (big tiddy aide) with a rather... piquing description. There were reasons I made that choice but they was soon overshadowed by the amount of baggage, assumptions and EXPLICIT sexism that character encountered. At the time I litigated my ooc complaints as having to do with overbearing clan leaders, pk culture and ooc cheating. But looking back there's no doubt in my mind misogynistic assumptions about my character played a role.

I've played a wide variety of characters. Complaints of misogyny and sexism wouldn't normally factor in 95% of them. But for some weird reason Aide + Fme desc + ??mudsex?? seems to break peoples minds. It's like it isn't even the same game.

You're totally right, I've never played a female PC so I will readily admit I don't know what it's like.  But I think we might be talking about two different things? I agree, sexist stuff still happens in the game no matter how much we don't want it to and try to stop it, and that isn't right.

I was trying to generally refer to bashing people about engaging in ERP.  I probably did a bad job communicating it, but I was narrowly thinking about it from the point of view of 'looking down on people who engage in ERP' or 'people getting in trouble for too much ERP'.  That was my interpretation of Lotion's point of this thread, but I could be waay off.  From that sort of administrative perspective, the people who -are- bashed for it and who -do- get in trouble for it are primarily male players.

That's not to say female players aren't looked down on or viewed adversely for it by other players, I don't know.  I believe y'all when you say it happens.  I just meant it from a staffer who has often had to deal with game issues about it and handle it.  If that makes sense?


EDIT to add:  This is all my perspective as staff since coming back on staff in 2021.  In all those years I was gone, I can't say what it was like.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2024, 12:09:03 AMFemme-coded activities include tavern sitting and other purely social behaviors; crafts that aren't related to combat; playing a noble (not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers); playing an aide; artistic pursuits; romantic relationships; emotionally-supportive friendships; NOT competing over things; being nice; etc. Yes, this is Armageddon and it's a harsh world blah blah blah but there's no world where femme-coded activities don't have actual value.

Can you explain what that means?  How is a coded ability to craft objects "femme-coded".  What does that mean?  Are you saying that it's meant only for females?  And are you saying that the fact templars have power mean it's only coded for males?  I'm not following you here at all.

This thread is silly, stemming from the nature of someone looking for things to actively be offended by.

Quote from: Halaster on September 03, 2024, 08:30:31 AM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2024, 12:09:03 AMFemme-coded activities include tavern sitting and other purely social behaviors; crafts that aren't related to combat; playing a noble (not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers); playing an aide; artistic pursuits; romantic relationships; emotionally-supportive friendships; NOT competing over things; being nice; etc. Yes, this is Armageddon and it's a harsh world blah blah blah but there's no world where femme-coded activities don't have actual value.

Can you explain what that means?  How is a coded ability to craft objects "femme-coded".  What does that mean?  Are you saying that it's meant only for females?  And are you saying that the fact templars have power mean it's only coded for males?  I'm not following you here at all.

Picture a nurse caring for patients at a hospice.

....

....

....

Was that nurse a man or woman? Let's be real, it was probably a woman.

By "coded", I take it to mean mean that certain roles and behaviours are understood to be gendered as a result of societal norms. It is read and written intuitively. Almost like language.