Leadership PCs spending their time on extended intimate scenes unjustly deprives the rest of the game of their presence. The time of a leadership PC's time is valuable, squandering it on extended goon sessions is disrespectful to the playerbase at large. It's understood that some sacrifices must be made by Leadership PCs and I believe this is one of them that should be made.

Is this some kind of known problem, or another imaginary one?

Disclaimer: my opinion has nothing to do with ERP.

I don't think staff (or other players) should be telling players how to spend their time.  Ever.
This is a game.  People come here to have fun and do things. Playing a leadership role already comes with a lot of responsibility, and can be very stressful. I am against anything that makes this worse.

I think this can be handled ICly by reporting people for not doing their jobs to their employers.

The underlying core of what you're suggesting, assuming this isn't just another ERP=Bad argument, is that you want to further control the time/availability expectations of leadership roles. I don't agree with that.

The time requirements of a leadership PC are clearly outlined between them and staff. If they meet those requirements in general availability in some form or another to doing their leadership duties(which are not always to stand in front of subordinates), then whatever other time they wish to give to the game beyond that is 100% their own business.

It's like the old issues with schedules, in my opinion. If someone who plays the game for 12 hours a day is compared with someone who plays it for 3 (adding up to 84 hours in a week for the former, and 21 in the latter) both have pushed far beyond the necessity of a leadership role playing a game for fun. If only 1/4th of the first person's time is given directly to clan leadership, that is still an average of 3 hours a day to a clan. In the latter's case, if they're giving 50% of their time, that's still a couple hours every day to a game that is again, about fun. Everyone cannot give the same. Everyone should respect that everyone else isn't interested in doing things in the game exactly like you.

I get feeling frustrated about not getting to interact with someone you would like to. I've felt that way before. A gentle nudge from staff made their feelings clear on this, and the more I thought about it, the more I've agreed with it and understand.

No, we should not have any further expectations of players with what they do in this manner.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 02, 2024, 11:17:42 AMDisclaimer: my opinion has nothing to do with ERP.

I don't think staff (or other players) should be telling players how to spend their time.  Ever.
This is a game.  People come here to have fun and do things. Playing a leadership role already comes with a lot of responsibility, and can be very stressful. I am against anything that makes this worse.

I think this can be handled ICly by reporting people for not doing their jobs to their employers.

+1

What's next?

"Leadership Roles should be required to only RP with other PCs; there should be a moratorium on solo RP and character development. They must verify that they are putting in 3-5 hours interacting with other PCs, submitting logs for Staff to rubber stamp. They must create one plot a week and one rumor board post a week. They must submit stool samples for health reasons, and may have to undergo intense questioning by Staff as to their character's motives."

C'mon.

If Staff have a problem with how someone is playing a leadership role, that's between Staff and the player. As Players, we are absolutely not well informed enough to have a position like this, and it's not really our place to cast shade or judgement in this respect.

If you want to underexpose yourself to ERP participation or not play a PC that could tangentially be around ERP, then apply to join Staff.

You know what I've noticed for the years I've been around? Lot of people complaining about a lot of things other people are doing and not just watching and working on themselves, like real life in freakin general. So many people have complained about other players, other staff, etc. Get over it! I can say, since beginning playing this game, that I have not had one bad experience with staff, ERP, other players, anything! And mind you, I've had specapp chars instaganked, I've had chars I worked a couple months on get jumped and mantis head in 5 seconds, I've had staff tell me no, I've had staff tell me step it up, and I've had players and staff give me kudos and thumbs up. I have encountered ERP, and it's a fade to black situation for me. Everyone is different. Maybe they like it, maybe they don't. My Arm career has been fun and successful by my standards, so I don't get why people want to place more restrictions on people and go social justice warrior Arm style.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 02, 2024, 11:17:42 AMDisclaimer: my opinion has nothing to do with ERP.

I don't think staff (or other players) should be telling players how to spend their time.  Ever.

I agree with this, but its not that staff/players shouldn't, its really that they can't. Its never worked.

There are a several notable examples in Armageddon's history where the game has made a change thinking players would just accept it and it has only lead to no one playing the roles or even in the area. That said, what this game sometimes forgets is that no amount of code, interactions or world plots replaces the day to day effort of an active player logging in to make the game fun for themselves and others.

I think the game would be better off taking a hard look at clans and seeing where they can allow active players to step up and take on more of the effort to make the clans fun, removing some of the hierarchy where ever possible and only enforcing meaningful restrictions(ex. no lawbreaking activities, etc). Sponsored role efforts should continue to be reviewed for automation opportunities and have bigger roles to play in assisting staff to DM clan and world plots from more organization levels, giving them more freedom to do their own personal things.

Leadership PC's should be required to fade those ridiculous two hour meetings with other pc leaders that result in no decisions and meander way off tangent.

Lol wut?

Nah

I agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

Hi!

This is a spicy topic, so please keep it civil.

Taking pot-shots at players, or kinds of players through strawmen, please also don't do it.

If this does happen, we'll have to lock this.

Thank you!

sheathe ban.hammer

Quote from: zealus on September 02, 2024, 05:06:05 PMsheathe ban.hammer

Ban hammer is probably back sheath only.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 02, 2024, 04:58:20 PMI agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

The misogynistic part is cringy. Romantic relationships are absolutely weaknesses if exploited. People who are emotional and interested in gushy, romantic, feely things are often considered "not tough", because, well, in an extremely harsh post-apocalyptic desert world based on murder corruption and betrayal, being too emotionally soft is a flaw that a would be murderer would clearly target. Even in a normal setting they are relationships that would be targeted. Remember how Mary Jane got kidnapped by the Green Goblin? Remember how Princess Peach -always- gets kidnapped by Bowser? I guess Spiderman is misogynistic too, also don't let that woman hating plumber near me!

Quote from: KakkarotYaBoi on September 02, 2024, 06:03:14 PMbeing too emotionally soft is a flaw

Ehhh.. I don't know about that man.

Post-apocalyptic or not people are still people.

Quote from: KakkarotYaBoi on September 02, 2024, 06:03:14 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 02, 2024, 04:58:20 PMI agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

Remember how Mary Jane got kidnapped by the Green Goblin? Remember how Princess Peach -always- gets kidnapped by Bowser? I guess Spiderman is misogynistic too, also don't let that woman hating plumber near me!

The fact that only the exploitation of women was used as an example here probably just proves the point that Gimfalisette was making. Regardless of how the dynamic plays out between PCs, that distinction between the sexes doesn't exist on Zalanthas.

Quote from: zealus on September 02, 2024, 05:06:05 PMTaking pot-shots at players, or kinds of players through strawmen, please also don't do it.

That's, like, this whole thread though? It begins with a pot shot at all the leaders. Surprised it wasn't modded from post one.

Quote from: altaccount on September 02, 2024, 06:18:08 PM

Quote from: KakkarotYaBoi on September 02, 2024, 06:03:14 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 02, 2024, 04:58:20 PMI agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

Remember how Mary Jane got kidnapped by the Green Goblin? Remember how Princess Peach -always- gets kidnapped by Bowser? I guess Spiderman is misogynistic too, also don't let that woman hating plumber near me!

The fact that only the exploitation of women was used as an example here probably just proves the point that Gimfalisette was making. Regardless of how the dynamic plays out between PCs, that distinction between the sexes doesn't exist on Zalanthas.

The example was to show how the exploitation of a person(in this context a woman) who are important to another are used as a weakness. I'm not denying that people of all types are exploited, even more so without IRL prejudice in game, because as you said we are playing in a world where that distinction between the genders from the real world do not exist. I'm simply pointing out that it's not misogyny to target a romantic relationship as a possible weakness. I just have never been playing thinking "Wow what a woman hater IRL" or "This person really hates men IRL".

I say, if they want to play an emotionally cold "rough" type that just uses sex workers, maybe that's their way of saying "Yeah, I don't want to write an erotic novel with you.". As far as I see it, the staff give you the autonomy to play WHATEVER the fuck you want, even if that PC concept goes against the "norms" of our Zalanthan societies. You could even play an actually misogynistic PC just for the fun of it, IC ramifications follow.

We're all playing make believe, writing stories together, and having fun. As long as you follow the rules in place (and they're there for good reasons), leave people be to play whoever, whatever, and however they want. React IC and just have fun!


I also just want to add that I've been having LOTS of fun with you all. I have zero OOC communication, I don't know ANY of you, and I MUST say I believe it has made my Armageddon experience UUHHHHMAZIN. Perhaps I don't see the issues you all do because of this.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 02, 2024, 04:58:20 PM

• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

In my opinion this is absolute nonsense.  Someone hating on ERP does not automatically have a strong prejudice against women, that's just unfairly jumping to conclusions and assuming you know the motivations of the people who dislike it. It is attacking other players because you think you know their motivation.  Or you are assuming the worst intention in them because of.. reasons I don't know why you would.  Maybe they dislike it because they feel like it's a distraction from "more important" (to them) aspects of the game.  Maybe they feel like it takes an inordinate amount of time.  Maybe they feel like it just leads to bunch of people getting mad at each other.  Or a host of other reasons.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails.

Quote from: KakkarotYaBoi on September 02, 2024, 06:03:14 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 02, 2024, 04:58:20 PMI agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

The misogynistic part is cringy. Romantic relationships are absolutely weaknesses if exploited. People who are emotional and interested in gushy, romantic, feely things are often considered "not tough", because, well, in an extremely harsh post-apocalyptic desert world based on murder corruption and betrayal, being too emotionally soft is a flaw that a would be murderer would clearly target. Even in a normal setting they are relationships that would be targeted. Remember how Mary Jane got kidnapped by the Green Goblin? Remember how Princess Peach -always- gets kidnapped by Bowser? I guess Spiderman is misogynistic too, also don't let that woman hating plumber near me!

Those are actually really good examples of refrigerating women which is a very misogynistic trope in media and gaming wherein an (often female) love interest is kidnapped/killed to harm/destroy the 'untouchable' (often male) 'protagonist', and it has actually caught a ton of heat in the online space in recent years. Further, everything about this reminds me of Dennis Reynolds' thing about feeling feelings like he was 14 and Mac being like 'no I know what feelings are I have feelings like every single day are you telling me you haven't felt anything since you were 14?'. Like. People feel feelings and bond with one another. The ones that don't are usually mentally ill in some respect. Even my PCs, and I am notoriously antisocial as a player at this point.

I think the focus on ERP here distracts from what seems to be OP's concern about availability. After all, if the leader character is unavailable (or perceived as unavailable), does it matter if they're engaged in ERP, playing cards, cooking, drinking, or turning cartwheels?

Clan staff are in the best position to determine whether a leader role is doing what's expected of them.  And no player should feel like their leader role can't have a life outside of their clan responsibilities.

Quote from: dumbstruck on September 02, 2024, 07:25:58 PM

Quote from: KakkarotYaBoi on September 02, 2024, 06:03:14 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 02, 2024, 04:58:20 PMI agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

The misogynistic part is cringy. Romantic relationships are absolutely weaknesses if exploited. People who are emotional and interested in gushy, romantic, feely things are often considered "not tough", because, well, in an extremely harsh post-apocalyptic desert world based on murder corruption and betrayal, being too emotionally soft is a flaw that a would be murderer would clearly target. Even in a normal setting they are relationships that would be targeted. Remember how Mary Jane got kidnapped by the Green Goblin? Remember how Princess Peach -always- gets kidnapped by Bowser? I guess Spiderman is misogynistic too, also don't let that woman hating plumber near me!

Those are actually really good examples of refrigerating women which is a very misogynistic trope in media and gaming wherein an (often female) love interest is kidnapped/killed to harm/destroy the 'untouchable' (often male) 'protagonist', and it has actually caught a ton of heat in the online space in recent years. Further, everything about this reminds me of Dennis Reynolds' thing about feeling feelings like he was 14 and Mac being like 'no I know what feelings are I have feelings like every single day are you telling me you haven't felt anything since you were 14?'. Like. People feel feelings and bond with one another. The ones that don't are usually mentally ill in some respect. Even my PCs, and I am notoriously antisocial as a player at this point.

Actually no, it's examples of generalizations IRL that are very real, and to which there are always a minority of exceptions. They were more of examples of how two peoples that are intimately in a relationship get that "weakness" exploited by an antagonist. Their gender honestly doesn't matter. If I hate someone, and they're a gay man, and I stab their same-sex partner to death to get back at them, does that mean I'm misogynist too? If two same sex PC's engage in ERP, and one rough and tough type thinks it's too complicated to deal with an in depth relationship and decides to go back to emotionless sex with prostitutes, is that misogyny as well?

At any rate, if a PC Clan Leader is spending all their time spankin cheeks (or whatever they do!), I'm sure that they're regular absence will be observed and dealt with IC.

Don't care if my leaders ERP as long as they're doing their leader thing, too. Whatever makes the role fun within the confines of consent and docs. Sometimes it's cool to be a badass boss bitch and also bang, whatever, cool.

And yeah ultimately I think what some fems seem to be expressing is that the targeting around ERP seems to only negatively effect fem PCs/players. That had been my experience as a player, too. Never seen a masc PC get dragged for mudsexing personally. Guess how often I saw women scandalized or gossiped about because of it? Many.

I don't necessarily think that's the intention of the thread or players here, but it's worth mentioning that this game has a history of misogyny. That's true of any online space or game community, I just think people forget about it if they aren't the marginalized demographic. FWIW I haven't really seen any of that since coming on staff, which has been a pleasant surprise.