Leadership PCs should be required to fade ERP

[Lotion]

Leadership PCs spending their time on extended intimate scenes unjustly deprives the rest of the game of their presence. The time of a leadership PC's time is valuable, squandering it on extended goon sessions is disrespectful to the playerbase at large. It's understood that some sacrifices must be made by Leadership PCs and I believe this is one of them that should be made.

[Roon]

Is this some kind of known problem, or another imaginary one?

[FantasyWriter]

Disclaimer: my opinion has nothing to do with ERP.

I don't think staff (or other players) should be telling players how to spend their time.  Ever.
This is a game.  People come here to have fun and do things. Playing a leadership role already comes with a lot of responsibility, and can be very stressful. I am against anything that makes this worse.

I think this can be handled ICly by reporting people for not doing their jobs to their employers.

[ABoredLion]

The underlying core of what you're suggesting, assuming this isn't just another ERP=Bad argument, is that you want to further control the time/availability expectations of leadership roles. I don't agree with that.

The time requirements of a leadership PC are clearly outlined between them and staff. If they meet those requirements in general availability in some form or another to doing their leadership duties(which are not always to stand in front of subordinates), then whatever other time they wish to give to the game beyond that is 100% their own business.

It's like the old issues with schedules, in my opinion. If someone who plays the game for 12 hours a day is compared with someone who plays it for 3 (adding up to 84 hours in a week for the former, and 21 in the latter) both have pushed far beyond the necessity of a leadership role playing a game for fun. If only 1/4th of the first person's time is given directly to clan leadership, that is still an average of 3 hours a day to a clan. In the latter's case, if they're giving 50% of their time, that's still a couple hours every day to a game that is again, about fun. Everyone cannot give the same. Everyone should respect that everyone else isn't interested in doing things in the game exactly like you.

I get feeling frustrated about not getting to interact with someone you would like to. I've felt that way before. A gentle nudge from staff made their feelings clear on this, and the more I thought about it, the more I've agreed with it and understand.

No, we should not have any further expectations of players with what they do in this manner.

[Drov]

Disclaimer: my opinion has nothing to do with ERP.

I don't think staff (or other players) should be telling players how to spend their time.  Ever.
This is a game.  People come here to have fun and do things. Playing a leadership role already comes with a lot of responsibility, and can be very stressful. I am against anything that makes this worse.

I think this can be handled ICly by reporting people for not doing their jobs to their employers.

+1

[Veselka]

What's next?

"Leadership Roles should be required to only RP with other PCs; there should be a moratorium on solo RP and character development. They must verify that they are putting in 3-5 hours interacting with other PCs, submitting logs for Staff to rubber stamp. They must create one plot a week and one rumor board post a week. They must submit stool samples for health reasons, and may have to undergo intense questioning by Staff as to their character's motives."

C'mon.

If Staff have a problem with how someone is playing a leadership role, that's between Staff and the player. As Players, we are absolutely not well informed enough to have a position like this, and it's not really our place to cast shade or judgement in this respect.

If you want to underexpose yourself to ERP participation or not play a PC that could tangentially be around ERP, then apply to join Staff.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

You know what I've noticed for the years I've been around? Lot of people complaining about a lot of things other people are doing and not just watching and working on themselves, like real life in freakin general. So many people have complained about other players, other staff, etc. Get over it! I can say, since beginning playing this game, that I have not had one bad experience with staff, ERP, other players, anything! And mind you, I've had specapp chars instaganked, I've had chars I worked a couple months on get jumped and mantis head in 5 seconds, I've had staff tell me no, I've had staff tell me step it up, and I've had players and staff give me kudos and thumbs up. I have encountered ERP, and it's a fade to black situation for me. Everyone is different. Maybe they like it, maybe they don't. My Arm career has been fun and successful by my standards, so I don't get why people want to place more restrictions on people and go social justice warrior Arm style.

[Dresan]

Disclaimer: my opinion has nothing to do with ERP.

I don't think staff (or other players) should be telling players how to spend their time.  Ever.

I agree with this, but its not that staff/players shouldn't, its really that they can't. Its never worked.

There are a several notable examples in Armageddon's history where the game has made a change thinking players would just accept it and it has only lead to no one playing the roles or even in the area. That said, what this game sometimes forgets is that no amount of code, interactions or world plots replaces the day to day effort of an active player logging in to make the game fun for themselves and others.

I think the game would be better off taking a hard look at clans and seeing where they can allow active players to step up and take on more of the effort to make the clans fun, removing some of the hierarchy where ever possible and only enforcing meaningful restrictions(ex. no lawbreaking activities, etc). Sponsored role efforts should continue to be reviewed for automation opportunities and have bigger roles to play in assisting staff to DM clan and world plots from more organization levels, giving them more freedom to do their own personal things.

[Inky]

Leadership PC's should be required to fade those ridiculous two hour meetings with other pc leaders that result in no decisions and meander way off tangent.

[SomethingClever]

Lol wut?

[Jarvis]

Nah

[Gimfalisette]

I agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

[zealus]

Hi!

This is a spicy topic, so please keep it civil.

Taking pot-shots at players, or kinds of players through strawmen, please also don't do it.

If this does happen, we'll have to lock this.

Thank you!

sheathe ban.hammer

[Kavrick]

sheathe ban.hammer

Ban hammer is probably back sheath only.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

I agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

The misogynistic part is cringy. Romantic relationships are absolutely weaknesses if exploited. People who are emotional and interested in gushy, romantic, feely things are often considered "not tough", because, well, in an extremely harsh post-apocalyptic desert world based on murder corruption and betrayal, being too emotionally soft is a flaw that a would be murderer would clearly target. Even in a normal setting they are relationships that would be targeted. Remember how Mary Jane got kidnapped by the Green Goblin? Remember how Princess Peach -always- gets kidnapped by Bowser? I guess Spiderman is misogynistic too, also don't let that woman hating plumber near me!

[FuSoYa]

being too emotionally soft is a flaw

Ehhh.. I don't know about that man.

Post-apocalyptic or not people are still people.

[altaccount]

I agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

Remember how Mary Jane got kidnapped by the Green Goblin? Remember how Princess Peach -always- gets kidnapped by Bowser? I guess Spiderman is misogynistic too, also don't let that woman hating plumber near me!

The fact that only the exploitation of women was used as an example here probably just proves the point that Gimfalisette was making. Regardless of how the dynamic plays out between PCs, that distinction between the sexes doesn't exist on Zalanthas.

[Big Red]

Taking pot-shots at players, or kinds of players through strawmen, please also don't do it.

That's, like, this whole thread though? It begins with a pot shot at all the leaders. Surprised it wasn't modded from post one.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

I agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

Remember how Mary Jane got kidnapped by the Green Goblin? Remember how Princess Peach -always- gets kidnapped by Bowser? I guess Spiderman is misogynistic too, also don't let that woman hating plumber near me!

The fact that only the exploitation of women was used as an example here probably just proves the point that Gimfalisette was making. Regardless of how the dynamic plays out between PCs, that distinction between the sexes doesn't exist on Zalanthas.

The example was to show how the exploitation of a person(in this context a woman) who are important to another are used as a weakness. I'm not denying that people of all types are exploited, even more so without IRL prejudice in game, because as you said we are playing in a world where that distinction between the genders from the real world do not exist. I'm simply pointing out that it's not misogyny to target a romantic relationship as a possible weakness. I just have never been playing thinking "Wow what a woman hater IRL" or "This person really hates men IRL".

I say, if they want to play an emotionally cold "rough" type that just uses sex workers, maybe that's their way of saying "Yeah, I don't want to write an erotic novel with you.". As far as I see it, the staff give you the autonomy to play WHATEVER the fuck you want, even if that PC concept goes against the "norms" of our Zalanthan societies. You could even play an actually misogynistic PC just for the fun of it, IC ramifications follow.

We're all playing make believe, writing stories together, and having fun. As long as you follow the rules in place (and they're there for good reasons), leave people be to play whoever, whatever, and however they want. React IC and just have fun!


I also just want to add that I've been having LOTS of fun with you all. I have zero OOC communication, I don't know ANY of you, and I MUST say I believe it has made my Armageddon experience UUHHHHMAZIN. Perhaps I don't see the issues you all do because of this.

[Halaster]

• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

In my opinion this is absolute nonsense.  Someone hating on ERP does not automatically have a strong prejudice against women, that's just unfairly jumping to conclusions and assuming you know the motivations of the people who dislike it. It is attacking other players because you think you know their motivation.  Or you are assuming the worst intention in them because of.. reasons I don't know why you would.  Maybe they dislike it because they feel like it's a distraction from "more important" (to them) aspects of the game.  Maybe they feel like it takes an inordinate amount of time.  Maybe they feel like it just leads to bunch of people getting mad at each other.  Or a host of other reasons.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails.

[dumbstruck]

I agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

The misogynistic part is cringy. Romantic relationships are absolutely weaknesses if exploited. People who are emotional and interested in gushy, romantic, feely things are often considered "not tough", because, well, in an extremely harsh post-apocalyptic desert world based on murder corruption and betrayal, being too emotionally soft is a flaw that a would be murderer would clearly target. Even in a normal setting they are relationships that would be targeted. Remember how Mary Jane got kidnapped by the Green Goblin? Remember how Princess Peach -always- gets kidnapped by Bowser? I guess Spiderman is misogynistic too, also don't let that woman hating plumber near me!

Those are actually really good examples of refrigerating women which is a very misogynistic trope in media and gaming wherein an (often female) love interest is kidnapped/killed to harm/destroy the 'untouchable' (often male) 'protagonist', and it has actually caught a ton of heat in the online space in recent years. Further, everything about this reminds me of Dennis Reynolds' thing about feeling feelings like he was 14 and Mac being like 'no I know what feelings are I have feelings like every single day are you telling me you haven't felt anything since you were 14?'. Like. People feel feelings and bond with one another. The ones that don't are usually mentally ill in some respect. Even my PCs, and I am notoriously antisocial as a player at this point.

[flurry]

I think the focus on ERP here distracts from what seems to be OP's concern about availability. After all, if the leader character is unavailable (or perceived as unavailable), does it matter if they're engaged in ERP, playing cards, cooking, drinking, or turning cartwheels?

Clan staff are in the best position to determine whether a leader role is doing what's expected of them.  And no player should feel like their leader role can't have a life outside of their clan responsibilities.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

I agree with the other posters as to "nah" and "let leader players have fun," but further:

• When I staffed, I don't think I had ANY leadership PCs under me that I thought spent "too much" time on ERP. That's in like 3 cumulative years of staffing, mostly for nobles and templars in Allanak--which are the roles that most often get accused of "too much ERP." I believe this is a made-up, imaginary problem.
• Hating on ERP is misogynistic. ERP most often happens between male and female PCs, often in the context of a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are often treated as "weakness" by Armageddon players, and PCs involved in relationships that are not sex-only are treated as if they are not "tough" like that gruff combat dude who only has sex with sex workers. When you tell me, a female player, what you think of ERP? You're telling me what you think of me, too, which is that any activity which is not focused on the grind of combat or coin is not valid.

The misogynistic part is cringy. Romantic relationships are absolutely weaknesses if exploited. People who are emotional and interested in gushy, romantic, feely things are often considered "not tough", because, well, in an extremely harsh post-apocalyptic desert world based on murder corruption and betrayal, being too emotionally soft is a flaw that a would be murderer would clearly target. Even in a normal setting they are relationships that would be targeted. Remember how Mary Jane got kidnapped by the Green Goblin? Remember how Princess Peach -always- gets kidnapped by Bowser? I guess Spiderman is misogynistic too, also don't let that woman hating plumber near me!

Those are actually really good examples of refrigerating women which is a very misogynistic trope in media and gaming wherein an (often female) love interest is kidnapped/killed to harm/destroy the 'untouchable' (often male) 'protagonist', and it has actually caught a ton of heat in the online space in recent years. Further, everything about this reminds me of Dennis Reynolds' thing about feeling feelings like he was 14 and Mac being like 'no I know what feelings are I have feelings like every single day are you telling me you haven't felt anything since you were 14?'. Like. People feel feelings and bond with one another. The ones that don't are usually mentally ill in some respect. Even my PCs, and I am notoriously antisocial as a player at this point.

Actually no, it's examples of generalizations IRL that are very real, and to which there are always a minority of exceptions. They were more of examples of how two peoples that are intimately in a relationship get that "weakness" exploited by an antagonist. Their gender honestly doesn't matter. If I hate someone, and they're a gay man, and I stab their same-sex partner to death to get back at them, does that mean I'm misogynist too? If two same sex PC's engage in ERP, and one rough and tough type thinks it's too complicated to deal with an in depth relationship and decides to go back to emotionless sex with prostitutes, is that misogyny as well?

[KakkarotYaBoi]

At any rate, if a PC Clan Leader is spending all their time spankin cheeks (or whatever they do!), I'm sure that they're regular absence will be observed and dealt with IC.

[Valkyrja]

Don't care if my leaders ERP as long as they're doing their leader thing, too. Whatever makes the role fun within the confines of consent and docs. Sometimes it's cool to be a badass boss bitch and also bang, whatever, cool.

And yeah ultimately I think what some fems seem to be expressing is that the targeting around ERP seems to only negatively effect fem PCs/players. That had been my experience as a player, too. Never seen a masc PC get dragged for mudsexing personally. Guess how often I saw women scandalized or gossiped about because of it? Many.

I don't necessarily think that's the intention of the thread or players here, but it's worth mentioning that this game has a history of misogyny. That's true of any online space or game community, I just think people forget about it if they aren't the marginalized demographic. FWIW I haven't really seen any of that since coming on staff, which has been a pleasant surprise.

[Halaster]

Don't care if my leaders ERP as long as they're doing their leader thing, too. Whatever makes the role fun within the confines of consent and docs. Sometimes it's cool to be a badass boss bitch and also bang, whatever, cool.

And yeah ultimately I think what some fems seem to be expressing is that the targeting around ERP seems to only negatively effect fem PCs/players. That had been my experience as a player, too. Never seen a masc PC get dragged for mudsexing personally. Guess how often I saw women scandalized or gossiped about because of it? Many.

I don't necessarily think that's the intention of the thread or players here, but it's worth mentioning that this game has a history of misogyny. That's true of any online space or game community, I just think people forget about it if they aren't the marginalized demographic. FWIW I haven't really seen any of that since coming on staff, which has been a pleasant surprise.

I can tell you from my experience from being on staff a long time, that whenever "someone ERPs too much" is brought up, it's about men 75% of the time.  Whenever I hear "all I ever see that person doing is ERP", it's about men 75% of the time.  Whenever I hear someone associated with ERP in a negative way, it's almost always men.  Maybe from your perspective it seems like it's more often about women, but from where I sit I have not observed that.  As someone who's had to deal with more than a few players over the years about this topic, it has been predominantly men.  That said, I'm sure a lot of that has to do with our population breakdown, though, as it's surely predominantly men who play?

In my opinion this notion that women are targeted for.. I guess ERP bashing?.. does not stack up to the amount I've observed.  I've had to have conversations with a handful of players about ERP over the years, and all but one was men.  So I dunno, maybe I'm misunderstanding this? I can concede that.  My gut tells me this notion that women are more targeted for ERP bashing is simply incorrect, but maybe I'm not following what you guys mean.

All of that said....  we're not going to outlaw leaders from ERP, that idea was dead on arrival.

[Valkyrja]

The negative consequence from slut shaming effecting women primarily is an effect of misogyny. I've seen men get comments about how much they mudsex, but it's never resulted in that PC being targeted for assassination or ostracized socially within the game. For women? It's often.

[Lotion]

The existing double standard about sexual promiscuity which unjustly seeps into the game due to players' bigory is another good example of how ERP negatively impacts the game.

[Halaster]

The existing double standard about sexual promiscuity which unjustly seeps into the game due to players' bigory is another good example of how ERP negatively impacts the game.

Hah, touche'

[dumbstruck]

The negative consequence from slut shaming effecting women primarily is an effect of misogyny. I've seen men get comments about how much they mudsex, but it's never resulted in that PC being targeted for assassination or ostracized socially within the game. For women? It's often.

This. This is precisely what I am talking about. The notion that an NPC would be animated to come call a male PC whore two dozen times and threaten lying about their sexual activity to a superior is laughable. The idea that later in the day that the exact same (also female) PC would have a bartender animated to tell their mate that they were having sex publicly in the Gaj roasting pits with someone who they were job interviewing (with witnesses, and the staffer knew they were not because they were animating the failed NPC stick up)... is laughable.

How many male PCs have had a random PC who has never had a conversation with them die in the Arena yelling to all of Allanak that they kanked their PC? None that I know of. But I've had a female PC (Heim's mate actually) who had this happen. There are plenty of examples of where women are marginalized in sexual areas in this game in an unfair double standard and catch shit for it IC where it makes no sense. I don't think there's an OOC stigma against ERP that male PCs or male PCs are seeing one over the other, there might be.

I'm very concerned about the weird ways that sexual activities get bad PR for female PCs IC that it shouldn't and that if the character was male it would be laughable. I don't like that and that part smacks of misogyny. And yes it has not happened recently to me. But it has a history of being an issue, which is why people who have had it be an issue in that past are hypervigilant about how it might look coming up in the future.

[Valkyrja]

The existing double standard about sexual promiscuity which unjustly seeps into the game due to players' bigory is another good example of how ERP negatively impacts the game.

I would rather lay the blame at the feet of the players who are not adhering to our community and fair play standards.

As someone who makes mudsex jokes all the time, I say let them eat cake. I don't care. Any player who mudsexes all the time (outside of leadership positions) is still contributing to the game for those who have meaningful relationships with their PCs. Relationship RP is one of my favorite aspects of roleplay, regardless of medium. Sex is a part of intimacy for many people, faded or played out.

That babe might be keeping indie hunter Amos in the game because there's no one else to RP at prime time for them and it just so happens they like to ERP. They might do other stuff to effect the story for others at different times.

[Drov]

How do long sessions of ERP contribute to the game more than fade to black? Seriously, I am asking out of a lack of understanding.

[ArmaJunkie]

I have some pcs who do/have done ERP and some who do/have done the one relationship thing. Difficult to talk about any sort of sexism, because there are RL men who play women and RL women who play men. No way any shenanigans about this can be fairly determined, imo.

[altaccount]

How do long sessions of ERP contribute to the game more than fade to black? Seriously, I am asking out of a lack of understanding.

I'm assuming these players are doing things other than ERP during their time logged in, and if the activity of two months ago vs the activity of today is any indication - more people playing = better.

If they enjoy doing that during their free time and it encourages them to be online? Send it.

[Valkyrja]

How do long sessions of ERP contribute to the game more than fade to black? Seriously, I am asking out of a lack of understanding.

I think in general people need variety in their play experience to have fun. Some people get variety in different ways. If they achieve variety in their play experience by also ERPing, more power to them - it keeps them engaged with their PC longer and contributing to other stories, most likely.

Y'all know that many people into kink also have normal lives, too - right?  They're not just... in the dungeon the whole time, heh. Except for Greg. Greg needs to be watered once a day.

(Not directed any anyone in particular, just making a joke.)

[Lizzie]

I think there's some confusion in this very thread. We have one person referring to NPCs calling PCs whores - and that males don't get that kind of shit from females.

And the rest of the thread appears to be referring to the players, not the characters.  ERP is an OOC thing. PC relationships is an IC thing.  Characters have sex with each other. It's kind of a given, considering that characters were all born, and sex was somehow involved in the process.

But PLAYERS acting out the sexual event - is what makes it ERP. I don't know anyone who is slut-shaming the players in the game. And if they are, they should be complained about, since players don't exist in the game. Separation of player behavior vs. character behavior gets very confused and convoluted when it comes to sex.

If people want to type out erotic text in the game with each other - whatever. Keep it as ICly private as you can, make sure there's consent. And if you're playing a character who has a responsibility to other players - plotlines, jobs, tasks performed OR meted out - that you aren't just ignoring everything else in favor of your erp sessions.

I don't think of that request as misogynistic at all, I don't think the concern is either. I don't know if the player behind the character is male or female half the time, and I really don't care beyond a general curiosity. I also don't care if it's a male or female character who is boinking a male or female character. A dude playing a woman who has sex with another woman played by a non-binary person - I mean really it can get pretty silly if you really want to go down that rabbit hole. Obsessing about ERP is - a bit strange, whether you're the one doing it, or the one complaining about it. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the event doesn't replace the entire rest of the game play, because this isn't a sex-focused game.

[Tailong]

There is an age old adage that comes from a long line of Shaolin Monks, or Templars or something...goes like:

"Life is the easiest and simplest when you mind your own business and are not distracted by anything else."

And for everyone else:

"Listen, smile, agree, and then do whatever the fuck you were gonna do anyway" – Robert Downey Jr.

[Dar]

Just to mention for giggles.


I've arranged deaths of 3 people, assassinated 2 with my own character, died twice, endured once, was captured by templar 2 times, caused an alliance between ATV and Akai Skir, provoked another elf into going hostile and losing support of someone Very Powerful, recruited countless spies from aides, assistants, merchants, nobles. Had best of friends turn into bitter enemies. Betrayed clans, betrayed friends, caused others to commit betrayal for my sake. Talked someone into willingly accepting being ritually sacrificed. Tried, but failed to create an alliance with Gith. Leveraged someone into going into enemy city asking questions that A. Got them dissapeared and B. Warned the person I wanted to be warned.

All of that and probably more, was done with romance as a storytelling tool.  And it was played out more often then faded.


Last thing I would give a shit about is some other random player judging how I spend my time playing.

Dont like it? Fire/kill/replace/get me replaced. 

[Windstorm]

ERP is boogeyman more than actual spooky ghost on Armageddon these days. More people assume it's happening than it is actually happening, in my experience, by a pretty large margin.

But even if it is happening, so what? There's a million other things on Armageddon that people do that isn't interactive and is a lot more questionable, a lot more boring than some one on one descriptive roleplay.

Your solo foraging. Your low-emote, low-effort sparring. Your haggling. Your sneak/hide skill increasing. Your animal hunting without a group of 3 or more.

Where's the complaints about this stuff? Anyone holding these weird conservative double-standards needs to take a little time and self examine before they post or suggest this nonsense.

[Gimfalisette]

In my opinion this notion that women are targeted for.. I guess ERP bashing?.. does not stack up to the amount I've observed.  I've had to have conversations with a handful of players about ERP over the years, and all but one was men.  So I dunno, maybe I'm misunderstanding this? I can concede that.  My gut tells me this notion that women are more targeted for ERP bashing is simply incorrect, but maybe I'm not following what you guys mean.

I'm a player that has an old bad account note directly about who my character was (presumed by the staffer to be) having sex with. IIRC from when we discussed this type of account note in Discord, it was other female players or players of female PCs noting that they had these account notes.

The conversation about ERP often goes hand in hand with derision of "silky" PCs and "tressy-tressed aides" who are assumed to have "banged their way to the top." I've truly never seen an instance IC or OOC of a male PC or male player being denigrated over ERP. I've seen it lots of times toward female players or players of female PCs. I do think this is a situation where if you have not ever regularly played female PCs you're not going to understand the experience. I wish I could say that RL biases and sexism are no longer present in Armageddon MUD, but that would absolutely be a lie. Very little has changed in the way that female PCs are treated in game now versus 15 years ago.

My point about sexism and ERP really has to do with activities and PCs that are femme-coded in the game being treated with derision. Femme-coded activities include tavern sitting and other purely social behaviors; crafts that aren't related to combat; playing a noble (not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers); playing an aide; artistic pursuits; romantic relationships; emotionally-supportive friendships; NOT competing over things; being nice; etc. Yes, this is Armageddon and it's a harsh world blah blah blah but there's no world where femme-coded activities don't have actual value.

[Riven]

Never seen a masc PC get dragged for mudsexing personally.

I know, right? Like, I'm /waiting/ to be gossiped about here! (Meant to be lighthearted.)

[Qzzrbl]

Leaders should ftb their sweaty grunts and punching and wrasslin' on ruff circle day while we're at it.

[Usiku]

I'd like to remind everyone that when discussing your opinions on changes you'd like to see or addressing issues, it's most productive to focus on what's happening in the game now. Complaining about things that happened historically doesn't really help us move forward if we've already fixed them or if they are no longer issues.

On topic, leadership players have enough responsibilities. I don't intend to try and tell them what they should be doing in their 'free', character development time. If you feel leadership PCs aren't present enough for whatever reason, then you can always reach out to us and we can look into it. At the end of the day, this is a game and they are people playing the game, they ought be having fun and they can't be around 24/7. Sometimes it will just take a hot minute to get a leader's attention because they are busy, but they are entitled to their down time play as much as anyone, whatever that may look like.

[Lachesis]

I think there's a fundamental flaw in the initial argument, and it is the implication that staff have any right to micromanage a player's time, as if staff are employers and the players of leadership roles engaging in ERP are doing the Armageddon equivalent of staring at a blank Excel sheet when the boss walks in. That's entirely the wrong way to look at this. Leadership comes with some basic expectations, but beyond that we want players to have autonomy. Telling players what they can and can't do with their time flies in the face of staff's "yes, and" and "no, but" approach to staffing.

I think that if leadership PC time is truly considered valuable, then we should trust the players in those roles to use that highly valued time in the way that they deem best, and we should not concern ourselves with anything beyond that unless they are breaking the rules of the game.

The dynamic between staff and players in leadership roles should simply be that of support. I want to know when the leadership in my clans are struggling with stuff that makes their role feel more job-like and less like fun.

[Inky]

In my opinion this notion that women are targeted for.. I guess ERP bashing?.. does not stack up to the amount I've observed.  I've had to have conversations with a handful of players about ERP over the years, and all but one was men.  So I dunno, maybe I'm misunderstanding this? I can concede that.  My gut tells me this notion that women are more targeted for ERP bashing is simply incorrect, but maybe I'm not following what you guys mean.

This is what people mean when they talk about privilege. Halaster, you put in a lot of work for this game and I respect that more than anything about you. But there's a blind spot if you've NEVER encountered these attitudes in all your time staffing.

I once played a BTA (big tiddy aide) with a rather... piquing description. There were reasons I made that choice but they was soon overshadowed by the amount of baggage, assumptions and EXPLICIT sexism that character encountered. At the time I litigated my ooc complaints as having to do with overbearing clan leaders, pk culture and ooc cheating. But looking back there's no doubt in my mind misogynistic assumptions about my character played a role.

I've played a wide variety of characters. Complaints of misogyny and sexism wouldn't normally factor in 95% of them. But for some weird reason (Aide + Fme desc + ??mudsex??) seems to break people's minds. It's like it isn't even the same game.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I do not know what 'femme-coded' means, but all of those things you listed are things I see both male and female PC's do every day. In fact, I myself have played male pc's that are primarily craft or city bound tavern sitters. Maybe a player or two has gotten all 'up in my face' with their combat-oriented PC once in a while, but I assumed that was just RP. Not derisive. Not being argumentative. I just have not experienced the same issues some of you seem to be having, or perhaps I am blind to it somehow. BTW, I am NOT a new player.

[Halaster]

In my opinion this notion that women are targeted for.. I guess ERP bashing?.. does not stack up to the amount I've observed.  I've had to have conversations with a handful of players about ERP over the years, and all but one was men.  So I dunno, maybe I'm misunderstanding this? I can concede that.  My gut tells me this notion that women are more targeted for ERP bashing is simply incorrect, but maybe I'm not following what you guys mean.

This is what people mean when they talk about privilege. Halaster, you put in a lot of work for this game and I respect that more than anything about you. But there's a blind spot if you've NEVER encountered these attitudes in all your time staffing.

I once played a BTA (big tiddy aide) with a rather... piquing description. There were reasons I made that choice but they was soon overshadowed by the amount of baggage, assumptions and EXPLICIT sexism that character encountered. At the time I litigated my ooc complaints as having to do with overbearing clan leaders, pk culture and ooc cheating. But looking back there's no doubt in my mind misogynistic assumptions about my character played a role.

I've played a wide variety of characters. Complaints of misogyny and sexism wouldn't normally factor in 95% of them. But for some weird reason Aide + Fme desc + ??mudsex?? seems to break peoples minds. It's like it isn't even the same game.

You're totally right, I've never played a female PC so I will readily admit I don't know what it's like.  But I think we might be talking about two different things? I agree, sexist stuff still happens in the game no matter how much we don't want it to and try to stop it, and that isn't right.

I was trying to generally refer to bashing people about engaging in ERP.  I probably did a bad job communicating it, but I was narrowly thinking about it from the point of view of 'looking down on people who engage in ERP' or 'people getting in trouble for too much ERP'.  That was my interpretation of Lotion's point of this thread, but I could be waay off.  From that sort of administrative perspective, the people who -are- bashed for it and who -do- get in trouble for it are primarily male players.

That's not to say female players aren't looked down on or viewed adversely for it by other players, I don't know.  I believe y'all when you say it happens.  I just meant it from a staffer who has often had to deal with game issues about it and handle it.  If that makes sense?


EDIT to add:  This is all my perspective as staff since coming back on staff in 2021.  In all those years I was gone, I can't say what it was like.

[Halaster]

Femme-coded activities include tavern sitting and other purely social behaviors; crafts that aren't related to combat; playing a noble (not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers); playing an aide; artistic pursuits; romantic relationships; emotionally-supportive friendships; NOT competing over things; being nice; etc. Yes, this is Armageddon and it's a harsh world blah blah blah but there's no world where femme-coded activities don't have actual value.

Can you explain what that means?  How is a coded ability to craft objects "femme-coded".  What does that mean?  Are you saying that it's meant only for females?  And are you saying that the fact templars have power mean it's only coded for males?  I'm not following you here at all.

[Jarvis]

This thread is silly, stemming from the nature of someone looking for things to actively be offended by.

[Leze]

Femme-coded activities include tavern sitting and other purely social behaviors; crafts that aren't related to combat; playing a noble (not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers); playing an aide; artistic pursuits; romantic relationships; emotionally-supportive friendships; NOT competing over things; being nice; etc. Yes, this is Armageddon and it's a harsh world blah blah blah but there's no world where femme-coded activities don't have actual value.

Can you explain what that means?  How is a coded ability to craft objects "femme-coded".  What does that mean?  Are you saying that it's meant only for females?  And are you saying that the fact templars have power mean it's only coded for males?  I'm not following you here at all.

Picture a nurse caring for patients at a hospice.

....

....

....

Was that nurse a man or woman? Let's be real, it was probably a woman.

By "coded", I take it to mean mean that certain roles and behaviours are understood to be gendered as a result of societal norms. It is read and written intuitively. Almost like language.

[Lotion]

This thread is silly, stemming from the nature of someone looking for things to actively be offended by.

I disagree. This thread has brought to light many afflictions which blight our community.

[Halaster]

By "coded", I take it to mean mean that certain roles and behaviours are understood to be gendered as a result of societal norms. It is read and written intuitively. Almost like language.

That's an interesting observation and got me thinking.  If a player makes an assumption about a role being gender-specific, who is the one perpetuating that stereotype or 'norm'?  In other words, if you (and I don't mean you @Leze this is a more generic you) say "templars with power are designed for men", which is what I interpreted that to mean (maybe I'm wrong @Gimfalisette, I apologize if I've misunderstood you), then isn't it you the one perpetuating that belief?

I truly don't mean this as an insult, but when it's said "not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers" - who's the one bringing that belief to the game?  The staff and people who play the templars, or the person who thinks this way about it?  Who is the one assigning the gender to the role?

[Markku]

This thread is silly, stemming from the nature of someone looking for things to actively be offended by.

I disagree. This thread has brought to light many afflictions which blight our community.

I'm confused. I thought you wanted to stop leader roles from ERPing to they would be able to interact with other people more.
Or because you think ERP is a toxic blight on the community?

Is there a prescription for making offensive behavior disappear being proposed, are is this just a strawman festival?

I think trying to solve specific problems that currently exist in the game is productive.

I think trying to solve overarching societal problems, and their perceived influences based on past experiences in a space where we just want to come together and have fun is not productive.

[Markku]

Was that nurse a man or woman? Let's be real, it was probably a woman.

By "coded", I take it to mean mean that certain roles and behaviours are understood to be gendered as a result of societal norms. It is read and written intuitively. Almost like language.

Do you have a prescription for how we can fix this problem here?

[Leze]

By "coded", I take it to mean mean that certain roles and behaviours are understood to be gendered as a result of societal norms. It is read and written intuitively. Almost like language.

That's an interesting observation and got me thinking.  If a player makes an assumption about a role being gender-specific, who is the one perpetuating that stereotype or 'norm'?  In other words, if you (and I don't mean you @Leze this is a more generic you) say "templars with power are designed for men", which is what I interpreted that to mean (maybe I'm wrong @Gimfalisette, I apologize if I've misunderstood you), then isn't it you the one perpetuating that belief?

I truly don't mean this as an insult, but when it's said "not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers" - who's the one bringing that belief to the game?  The staff and people who play the templars, or the person who thinks this way about it?  Who is the one assigning the gender to the role?

We're talking on a systemic level here. High power and high status positions tend to be occupied by men in the real world. All the baggage that comes with that will work it's way into the game. This might include roles like templars.

Most of the time this is all below the conscious level (like language). You can argue the merits of the claim, but pointing out the above doesn't put blame on me. You've missed the point if you even think it's about blame.

But yes, it's a trap I fall into occasionally too. There is one role in particular that I struggle with so badly that I've accidentally misgendered the character more than once. It's embarrassing enough that I had to blame it on brain no workie.

[Markku]

I'm very concerned about the weird ways that sexual activities get bad PR for female PCs IC that it shouldn't and that if the character was male it would be laughable. I don't like that and that part smacks of misogyny. And yes it has not happened recently to me. But it has a history of being an issue, which is why people who have had it be an issue in that past are hyper vigilant about how it might look coming up in the future.

Have you see this sort of thing since the game reopened? If so, have you reported it?

I, for one, had a male noble who was constantly chastised by other nobles including animated NPCs for his promiscuity (he was) and even more so for his one attempt at a meaningful relationship with someone to the extent that these are pretty much the only animations that I remember ever getting.

[dumbstruck]

I'm very concerned about the weird ways that sexual activities get bad PR for female PCs IC that it shouldn't and that if the character was male it would be laughable. I don't like that and that part smacks of misogyny. And yes it has not happened recently to me. But it has a history of being an issue, which is why people who have had it be an issue in that past are hyper vigilant about how it might look coming up in the future.

Have you see this sort of thing since the game reopened? If so, have you reported it?

I, for one, had a male noble who was constantly chastised by other nobles including animated NPCs for his promiscuity (he was) and even more so for his one attempt at a meaningful relationship with someone to the extent that these are pretty much the only animations that I remember ever getting.

I haven't. I haven't. It's more one of those, 'I'm one of those people who I feel like maybe has an inordinately deep well of egregious examples so here's a few examples of how these female PCs get negative blowback that male PCs have not'. Since the game has reopened I haven't seen anything like that thankfully, wanted to try and be clear that it has been a while but like yeah, always being vigilant about it just because I've seen it happen in the past in such weird ways that you just wouldn't want to believe would happen, if that makes sense. Can't tell you how much it means that you actually asked. It does mean a lot. Thank you for checking and creating the room for someone to say something.

[Leze]

Was that nurse a man or woman? Let's be real, it was probably a woman.

By "coded", I take it to mean mean that certain roles and behaviours are understood to be gendered as a result of societal norms. It is read and written intuitively. Almost like language.

Do you have a prescription for how we can fix this problem here?

I have no real suggestion other than to talk about it and not dismiss it out of hand. If there even is a solution to systemic discrimination, it's generational.

[Gimfalisette]

If a player makes an assumption about a role being gender-specific, who is the one perpetuating that stereotype or 'norm'?  In other words, if you (and I don't mean you @Leze this is a more generic you) say "templars with power are designed for men", which is what I interpreted that to mean (maybe I'm wrong @Gimfalisette, I apologize if I've misunderstood you), then isn't it you the one perpetuating that belief?

I truly don't mean this as an insult, but when it's said "not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers" - who's the one bringing that belief to the game?  The staff and people who play the templars, or the person who thinks this way about it?  Who is the one assigning the gender to the role?

Yeah that's not how societal programming of gender roles works. This is me noticing the effect of those stereotypes and biases in the game, not me perpetuating them.

To go back to an earlier point you made about 75% of ERP complaints about leaders being about male PCs: This is because even now, at least 75% of leader PCs in the game are male. Look at the current roster of clan leaders; I believe I count 20, and 4 of those are female PCs. That's 80% male PC leadership currently in the game. So in fact if the complaints leaned even 75% toward male leader PCs, that means female leader PCs are being overreported for ERP.

Yes, the game has more male PCs than female, but by my estimate it's only about a 60-40 split. That means female PCs are underrepresented as leadership PCs. Currently I believe women are also underrepresented on staff. We could have an entire separate conversation about why female players and people playing female PCs don't want to do clan leadership, but one significant factor is the kind of treatment that female PCs get in game. It's truly exhausting.

I'm not making any complaints about representation at this moment, I'm just making a note of the actual state of representation in the game's leadership.

[Gimfalisette]

Have you see this sort of thing since the game reopened? If so, have you reported it?

I've seen very sexist behaviors in game currently and reported them, yes. I've seen also behaviors that do stem from ingrained sexism but which don't rise to the level of reportable conduct. For those my PC just rolls with it and tries for an IC correction to the thought process. I've seen other PCs trying to correct the IC thought process too, not just mine, and not just female PCs doing it. We have allies within the game, that is there are male players and those playing male PCs who are very aware of these issues and I have only gratitude for their help <3

[Usiku]

I've seen one very sexist behaviors in game currently and reported themit, yes.

We appreciate honest feedback, but exaggerations that suggest the game is in a worse state than it actually is make it difficult to have productive, good faith discussions on these challenging topics. Let's focus on sticking to the truth for the most constructive conversations pretty please.

[Markku]

   I feel like we are not perfect, staff and players are actively nudging people away from improper behavior, most of which is not complaint worthy.  When complaints are issued, they are being handled.  We just released a new help file to address a lot of these concerns based on two request tool requests and a couple active GDB threads at the time.  This, I believe, is the truth of where we are.

  AND when I hear things like "blight on our community" and "blatant misogyny," it feels like some players believe it out our community is (at worst) uniquely at fault or (at least) sub-par for an internet community and isn't doing enough, and it is somewhat discouraging. I feel like, we as individual community members are being blamed for thing beyond our control.

  I don't see character complaints, but I can verify that anytime anything SPECIFIC is mentioned in a report or on the GDB, we all, as a staff team, put forth an active effort to investigate and find the root cause of reported issues, check back and forth with each other to see what anyone else might know about a specific player, character or issue.  I think we, staff, and we, the community do a great job of managing these issue, certainly more than we did five, ten, fifteen years ago. Do not let perfect be the enemy of good.

  I think working together on specific issues instead of shouting at the sky about the woes of the world is a better path of us all as a community, not least of all because many of us come here to escape those things.

Great job, Gimf, on helping to redirect people when they make mistakes IG. That truly is the best way to address these issues going forward.  As as reminder to everyone, you are free to and encouraged to do this:

"Real-world prejudges between the humans of Earth do not and should not bleed over into our collective roleplaying story. Staff will not approve a character, player-tribe or clan with a background that include a penchant for furthering or enforcing prejudicial real-life norms. Roleplaying these prejudices in-game will usually result in an in-character (IC) or out-of-character (OOC) notice/correction by other players or staff referring you to this or other documentation. Continued expression of these prejudices after in-game corrections have been documented may result in OOC consequences such as storage of your character, karma reduction, or an account ban. "

[Dar]

Erk. Some of these posts are beginning to get down right icky. Is there anything greater that needs to be explored here? Reading some posts, I feel like I need a shower.

[altaccount]

REDACTED

But you feeling a certain way about it doesn't make it not sexism. My experience in Armageddon is that the female PC who does that is going to receive more negative attention than a male PC who does that almost one hundred percent of the time. Just like real life, despite what should be different in the setting.

My PCs have pretty exclusively done some variety of monogamy and I've yet to encounter anyone who gives more than a cursory fuck about it.

[Tailong]

In the immortal words of Johnny Cash:


'I hear the train a-comin', it's rolling 'round the bend' but I think derailed along with this thread.

[zealus]

Yeah, this has ran it's course.