Quote from: Roon on July 11, 2024, 12:17:28 PMThe problem is that the sheer chronological hurdle...

You spend your first CC ticket to make an above average weapon. Then you spend your next to progress to good. Then the third one for very good. That's three months just to make a weapon comparable to what can be bought from the fancy Salarr shop. If your class gets high mastery in the skill, you can spend a fourth CC making one single amazing weapon (not repeatedly craftable) of that kind. It's a hell of a lot of investment for something that your own character probably doesn't have any use for. If I was playing a full-fledged crafter, I would spend my CCs on more interesting things than that. I wouldn't cash in my CCs for the next 3-4 months to make weapons for other people. It's kind of a raw deal. Why would people do this?

1. Your timeline isn't quite right. For indie it's above average, good, and very good.  For GMH it's good, very good, and a one-off amazing. And then you can churn out very good recipes every month after within that broad weapon type, and up to 4 amazings a year if you're gmh/tribe-special. It's never 4 months. https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58907.0.html

2. I think crafters not wanting to CC weapons is fine and great... they should craft what interests them.  You phrase it like a problem.  Is it?

Ultimately, you don't really need the very best or even decent weapons/gear to eventually kill or defend from anything you find on the road to Luirs or even really most places.

What we are effectively talking about at this point is PK.

I do not see the problem with players needing to put more effort or need some luck acquiring the absolute best stuff required to PKing people as effectively as possible. If the argument is that its hard for off-peak players to acquire really good weapons and gear, which again are only really needed to effectively Pk, the same could be said about a lot of things such as acquiring and deploying the very best poisons.

Its a choice, there should be meaningful trade offs providing different experiences with each character.

Quote from: Agent_137 on July 11, 2024, 12:57:20 PM2. I think crafters not wanting to CC weapons is fine and great... they should craft what interests them.  You phrase it like a problem.  Is it?

I was responding to someone who said the solution is to just CC your own equipment. That's not something that the game really facilitates in any worthwhile manner.

Quote from: Tailong on July 11, 2024, 12:35:25 PMBut you are right, I'd rather actually roleplay than worry about gear.  Hence my post. 

But I know of instances where PC master crafters had to put orders on hold for literally in game years because they can't get rarer materials.
 

I mean- I don't see the problem with this. If the effort isn't extended to get rarer materials why should people get rare material based stuff ?

Why can't you buy methelinoc poison or metal daggers or magical amulets? Shouldn't we not be on hold for literal in game years to wait on getting that stuff ?

Quote from: Usiku on July 11, 2024, 10:55:12 AMWe simply do not have enough players for a reliable, player driven economy. This would leave a lot of players entirely out in the cold.

I completely disagree. I have seen games with a smaller player count that still have a player driven economy. The amount of people who not only play full-guild crafters, but subguild crafters would fill the gap. The issue is that Armageddon doesn't facilitate player-to-player trading and instead makes crafters largely redundant by making it so the game works fine without any crafters. For a couple of examples on ways you could facilitate player-to-player trading better.

1. Do some sort of story event that reintroduces writing into the world. I honestly don't think this would be a big deal, especially if you're going to retcon city-elves to be far more friendly to humans. Having writing would mean that you could more easily place orders, keep track of things and generally communicate with offline players or players in a different timezone as you by the use of writing.

2. Add a system where players can rent out a stall in the Bazaar. We have an entire part of allanak dedicated to peddling wares, seeing it be more player run rather than npc-run would be great. If you made it so there were set stalls such as armor, weapons, clothing, etc etc that could be bought by pcs to use to sell to players indirectly, this would solve a lot of the issues of players not buying from crafters because it's hard to directly get a hold of them consistently.

And these are just two rather easy ways to implement systems to encourage more player-to-player economy interaction. You're never going to have a player economy while shops hold unlimited stock of items.

Quote from: Roon on July 11, 2024, 01:01:07 PMI was responding to someone who said the solution is to just CC your own equipment. That's not something that the game really facilitates in any worthwhile manner.

This is something I've been frustrated for for a while now. I understand that increased CCs means a bigger workload on staff, but other RPIs (with basically the same standards of writing as armageddon) have 'free' gear customization and ccing without any issue so I don't really see the point that tends to come up about quality control being necessary being valid. It's just one of those weird things, if staff said 'yeah this would be cool but we don't have the free time to code in a customization system or a more automated CC system right now', I'd totally consider that valid and a reasonable reasponse.

Quote from: Dresan on July 11, 2024, 12:58:39 PMUltimately, you don't really need the very best or even decent weapons/gear to eventually kill or defend from anything you find on the road to Luirs or even really most places.

What we are effectively talking about at this point is PK.

This is an RPG game with lots of pve and hitting creatures with bone swords. In most RPG games, getting better equipment and progressing you character's power is part of the fun. I don't do any sort of PvP and I enjoy having good gear.

I just wanted to point out that a lot of the problem being spoken about is weapon crafting, and only because the introduction of "quality" weapon crafting has players focusing on "having the best possible weapons".

Having to wait a RL month while someone makes a decent weapon for you should be the norm, but in that month you can ABSOLUTELY go out and glass mine and afford a full Salarri kit from the infinite-shop. Probably of higher quality than that one crafter can make.

The rest of the crafting experience revolves around this, because the player culture is "I want the best codedly possible items for my character, because anything less is a nerf". There is simply no reason to buy a "middle tier" weapon or armor, when you can wait a week and have a top tier.

Also, the other crafts ... leatherworking. Woodworking. Clothworking. Most of them don't provide "coded bonuses" so it becomes difficult for someone specializing in those to feel worthwhile. Your well-crafted erdlu statue doesn't give me fails on my weapon skill, so why should I buy it?



I think a lot of it comes down to the culture of PCs needing to have "the best" combined with staff's workaround to Vendor PCs being "providing the best in unlimited quantities". Suggestion? Keep the emporium items, but stop making them infinite. Load a few "interesting" items at a time, in limited quantities, and refresh it once a month. Especially with GMH's having the crafting wings open again, this takes SOME pressure off them, and still opens up a 'limited' supply of top tier items.

I don't think it is as much a sid and glass mining issue as it is an availability issue. The best items should be rare and sold at an ultra premium. I do think the best items should only be available via house agent/merchant.

Quote from: Krath on July 11, 2024, 04:21:37 PMI don't think it is as much a sid and glass mining issue as it is an availability issue. The best items should be rare and sold at an ultra premium. I do think the best items should only be available via house agent/merchant.

I agree, I think nerfing how much coin people get is just gonna annoy people and dissuade people from spending money on more flavor/rp things. Getting good+ quality gear and clanned armor should be something you have to go through a GMH/Tribe/Indie crafter to get.

Quote from: Dresan on July 10, 2024, 06:41:15 PMShops shouldn't be selling high end stuff that is easily affordable by commoners, and GMHs should perhaps never go back to selling their own trademark stuff directly to common people again.

I agree the more expensive GMH items should be sold through GMH merchants and I think shops should buy more lower end items, but only newly made, not resold. It would be cool if a used item immediately got a used tag that would lower the resale and buy price for an item that is being sold back to a shop or to an indie shop after being used.

That said, being an independent crafter is supposed to be more challenging than working for a GMH. You can't possibly expect an indie merchant/crafter experience to be = to a GMH merchant/crafter. There is a tradeoff for that independence.

 GMH's have compounds with water access and security, and many employees and the highest quality designs accumulated over centuries, even their lower end items would be considered better quality than an independent crafter's of the same type. They also pay attention to quickly rising independents encroaching on their territory.

I would like the GMHs to hire full crafters without ambiguity about roles.

Quote from: Classclown on July 11, 2024, 05:07:24 PMI would like the GMHs to hire full crafters without ambiguity about roles.

Same. I know that one of the complaints was about the whole 'vending machine' thing, but all that really changed was the option for that role was taken away without giving crafters a new role to replace it. Personally, I enjoy being both a crafter and a hunter in a GMH, I like being apart of a team to meet the demands of other players, it's satisfying for me and gives me a sense of purpose and progression for my characters.

Edit: Just putting in a quick edit here, I'm happy that staff have moved to give GMH players another option for being in a GMH with the new divisions. I just wanted to clarify that so I'm acknowledging good stuff and stuff I want to critique, don't want to seem like I'm just bitching.

I also don't mind it, but restricting the GMH designs kind of takes away any added bonus to crafting for the GMH while also hunting.

Quote from: Kavrick on July 11, 2024, 01:49:54 PMThis is an RPG game with lots of pve and hitting creatures with bone swords. In most RPG games, getting better equipment and progressing you character's power is part of the fun. I don't do any sort of PvP and I enjoy having good gear.

Performing your choice of coin making activities for X  number of hours and then going to GMH merchant or shop to buy the best available gear/very good weapon is not meaningful progression. Performing the same check box routine with every character gets old quickly and this particular routine is one that everyone's been performing for the last couple of decades.

Unpredictability is necessary to avoid stagnant repetition.  The game doesn't seem to understand human nature very well either, if you wiggle a carrot called good gear in front of people, many of them will just continue to perform X hours of mundane coin making activities until they earn it, and call the game boring and tedious the entire time. The game shoots itself in the foot by offer everything it can upfront.

Instead the game should stick to providing a fair and transparent choice to players, you want good weapons/gear you know what to pick. However, I do like PC stall idea.

Finally, I have no concerns with GMH hiring crafters, but they should be only be selling the things they can make, not GHM trademark stuff. This way they aren't completely outcompeting indie crafters who sometimes have an uphill struggle finding hunters that say alive and maintaining warehouses. If you want GHM crafters to make camo gear, ebon raptor armor or special weapon, allow all crafter to make it. Otherwise you risk GMHs making indie crafter obsolete before burning themselves out by being the only gear dispensers in town ..but this too is an old routine at this point.

I have been playing a full indy crafter almost from start of the season. Also, played a few .. in last whatever years. This was by far my most enjoyable experience. There are some excellent ideas on this post. I'll just throw my own.

- "Analyze" changed everything. Seriously. I know just a couple of other ARM players RL, and did not know many recipes other then my PCs discovered during play. Even with them,  I did not know how to RP knowing them. This is an amazing change.

- Number of active online PCs, changes the experience drasticly. Especially at the beginning of the season when playerbase was lacking in coin, it was extremely fun. Many customers and suppliers. My PC rarely went to a shop for a material.

- When playerbase begins to have large amount of coin, as PC crafter even with decent number of connections, it's really hard to craft high tier armor and weapon. Of course with clan restirictions, it takes some time for an indep crafter to offer one. So other PCs buy from specialist shops. That's right thing to do ICly. If those rare items would be very limited, I believe it would really improve the experience. So, if a PC would want best tier items, they would have to find an indy/GMH crafter and do a "quest" for it.

- Offering PCs to sell their products from directly through an indy shop will also change the experience. I guess that's hard to code, but this will open interesting competion. It will be fun for both GMH and Indy crafters.

Thank you everybody for the effort they put into the game. As an off-time player I can't believe number of PCs active. You rock!

Quote from: Dresan on July 11, 2024, 06:24:31 PM

Quote from: Kavrick on July 11, 2024, 01:49:54 PMThis is an RPG game with lots of pve and hitting creatures with bone swords. In most RPG games, getting better equipment and progressing you character's power is part of the fun. I don't do any sort of PvP and I enjoy having good gear.

Performing your choice of coin making activities for X  number of hours and then going to GMH merchant or shop to buy the best available gear/very good weapon is not meaningful progression. Performing the same check box routine with every character gets old quickly and this particular routine is one that everyone's been performing for the last couple of decades.

Maybe it is for them? Maybe that is meaningful progression for a lot of people. Are we gatekeeping what it means to have 'meaningful progression'? Let people play the way they want, it doesn't affect anyone but them.

Quote from: Tailong on July 11, 2024, 06:48:07 PMMaybe it is for them? Maybe that is meaningful progression for a lot of people. Are we gatekeeping what it means to have 'meaningful progression'? Let people play the way they want, it doesn't affect anyone but them.

Yes, actually do in many cases. It is kind the point of playing a balanced game. Otherwise people could be warrior/defilers with metal gear and weapons skills/spells at max at the point of creation. Or let drunk/heavy fighting still be a thing.

Quote from: Dresan on July 11, 2024, 06:55:06 PM

Quote from: Tailong on July 11, 2024, 06:48:07 PMMaybe it is for them? Maybe that is meaningful progression for a lot of people. Are we gatekeeping what it means to have 'meaningful progression'? Let people play the way they want, it doesn't affect anyone but them.

Yes, actually do in many cases. It is kind the point of playing a balanced game. Otherwise people could be warrior/defilers with metal gear at creation.

That has nothing to do with me, or anyone else, grebbing and buying gear from the shops, instead of PCs. I feel a vocal minority is repeating the same point to make gear progression harder.

Edited for tone, please let's not make this heated. Thank you
-Zealus

Quote from: Riev on July 11, 2024, 03:19:19 PMI just wanted to point out that a lot of the problem being spoken about is weapon crafting, and only because the introduction of "quality" weapon crafting has players focusing on "having the best possible weapons".

Having to wait a RL month while someone makes a decent weapon for you should be the norm, but in that month you can ABSOLUTELY go out and glass mine and afford a full Salarri kit from the infinite-shop. Probably of higher quality than that one crafter can make.

The rest of the crafting experience revolves around this, because the player culture is "I want the best codedly possible items for my character, because anything less is a nerf". There is simply no reason to buy a "middle tier" weapon or armor, when you can wait a week and have a top tier.

Also, the other crafts ... leatherworking. Woodworking. Clothworking. Most of them don't provide "coded bonuses" so it becomes difficult for someone specializing in those to feel worthwhile. Your well-crafted erdlu statue doesn't give me fails on my weapon skill, so why should I buy it?



I think a lot of it comes down to the culture of PCs needing to have "the best" combined with staff's workaround to Vendor PCs being "providing the best in unlimited quantities". Suggestion? Keep the emporium items, but stop making them infinite. Load a few "interesting" items at a time, in limited quantities, and refresh it once a month. Especially with GMH's having the crafting wings open again, this takes SOME pressure off them, and still opens up a 'limited' supply of top tier items.

Quote from: Kavrick on July 11, 2024, 05:19:07 PM

Quote from: Classclown on July 11, 2024, 05:07:24 PMI would like the GMHs to hire full crafters without ambiguity about roles.

Same. I know that one of the complaints was about the whole 'vending machine' thing, but all that really changed was the option for that role was taken away without giving crafters a new role to replace it. Personally, I enjoy being both a crafter and a hunter in a GMH, I like being apart of a team to meet the demands of other players, it's satisfying for me and gives me a sense of purpose and progression for my characters.

I think you can easily break them from being vending machines by having them not take orders. The merchants can decide monthly or whatever what they want to sell, and if they're successful, sell next month.

This 'templar wants an X and byn sarge wants a Y' - no, the Merchants should decide what they sell. It should be cart blanche noted to the playerbase that they can't just make orders through GMH PCs and expect them filled. They need to inquire and compete for the chance to -buy- the limited items. Give the GMH power.

Ideally it's not PCs->merchant PC->staff->merchant PC->PCs.

It's staff<->Merchant PC -> PCs.

I like borges idea a lot.

Also let gmh crafters sell their own crafts within some reasonable guidelines. Running every purchase through a merchant was a big contributor to vending machine feels. I gotta get my junior crafter buddy to break rules just to buy some boots off him with leather I brought him? Silly. Just give the house a cut of sid or something and thumbs up to the junior crafter for making a sale.

Quote from: Tailong on July 11, 2024, 06:59:57 PM....

You've made some assumptions I disagree with. This game is a RPI with permadeath elements, not a solo sandbox. The game nerfed the progression of hybrid magicker subclasses for a reason.

While gear/weapon has less impact in the efficiency of killing scrabs or chalton, it certainly has a more noticeable effect when you are in combat with other PCs. It also has a negative impact on this particular permadeath game when acquiring the very best gear is just a simple routine with every character.

Quote from: Agent_137 on July 12, 2024, 02:21:53 AMAlso let gmh crafters sell their own crafts within some reasonable guidelines.

GMH and Indie crafter should only be selling what the players can make. They both have different experiences in terms of gameplay, but there should be no difference in regard to crafted goods with exception of custom goods. Where one would make customs good for commoners and the other is working with metal and gems to produce products for the elite half the time. There is also an open war between Salarr and Kurac, both parties should be selling whatever they want without any concern for outdated trade boundaries.

GMH plus stalls should relieve concern of it being impossible to find a PC crafter, but if you still can't, then the average stuff stores would be available. Players are not entitled to the very best stuff in the game, unless you choose to craft it yourself.

That said, how individual clans run and generate fun for their members should probably be its own important thread. Its not fully what Agent was referring to but I appreciate the segue none the less.

I think at the crux is that a PC crafter or agent of said crafter just needs to send a quick request in to update their clan staff about sales made and so on. This lack of communications was a problem when Jal had a bunch of crafters, among others.

Quote from: dunecrawler on July 11, 2024, 07:59:38 AMFor me to buy from PC crafters, it needs to be fairly easy to do so. I bought a whole bunch of items from one PC this season, but only because he was advertising and had things available.

But other than that? I don't know who you are. I haven't seen anyone trying to sell stuff. I remember a single posting on the IG boards from someone selling armor and weapons, but they can't be the only PC who has things to sell.

If I have the choice to spend RL days getting the name of a crafter, then chasing them down, then waiting until they actually make me a 'good' quality sword, I'll probably just go and buy that 'good' quality sword from an NPC instead. Even if I'm broke and have to spend all the coin I have.

WHAT IF:

When you went to an NPC shop, you could see the names of the PCs who had made particular items that are for sale in that shop?

I agree that it's difficult to figure out which PCs are making what stuff. Especially when they're probably a full artisan class and haven't focused on one particular thing yet, so they're sort of making everything. But I'd love to look at an item in a shop, note the price they're asking and the name of the PC who made it, and then go find that PC to get a better price on it. And probably to buy more stuff, because they're making things that I like and want already.

Obviously this would be a code change.

In addition to my idea and Bogre's rework of it, I would like to re-propose something I've seen before.

That is... a place where PC crafters are "EXPECTED" to be to sell their things.

Whether thats the bazaar, or the Hawker's stand near the bazaar, or whatever. A place where you go with your display case and a sampling of what you can offer people. Let people come by, browse what you have, buy on the spot or ask if you can make something that Salarr sells, but for cheaper.

Instead of being like me, and sitting in an apartment or warehouse all day just churning out shit ... change the culture and occasionally be in "the space" where people expect to see you.

Or do the equivalent of the auctioneer in other MUDs by having a consignment store.  You give the item to an NPC to sell, he gives you money if and when it sells.  Multiple people can give items to this same NPC.

I feel the best stuff shouldn't just be available to everyone. The best stuff should be very rare, and when you see someone wearing it, your character might get a bit envious/angry/awestruck/etc.

Just because Gary Grebface can make 2000 'sid a trip doesn't mean he should be entitled to things that are one in a thousand. If it's sold in a shop, it's probably mass produced (as 'mass' as a world like Zalanthas can be). The quality difference in damage/redux for weapons and armor should be negligible enough as well, that not having the 'best' isn't a hindrance, it's just a nice addition to the PCs work investment.

This is where using indy crafter pcs to get unique things could come in. Getting something that notable should potentially only come through merchant channels with the related GMH agents, who would be sitting on some rather exceptional stock that you'll never see stocked in a shop. So Gary Grebface would need to either use Ivan Indy for a custom sword, who might be much more available that Amy Agent. Amy can likely get access to an overall better weapon than Ivan Indy, but WHY would Amy Agent just randomly decide to entertain a random Gary Grebface, as well as the 20-30 other obsidian miners like him? She's a GMH member, the 5k 'sid she'd make from Gary should be laughable, and maybe she'd be looked down on for putting stellar craftsmanship in the hands of a random dude that's gonna lose it to the belly of a Mek in a week or two, letting it potentially end up in the hands of that group of raiders that will be circling their argosy in a week?

This means Gary will need to convince Amy that HE is worth HER time, because those 'sids will be coming in regardless, from more reputable, socially acceptable avenues. Maybe Gary will need to grease her palms with a few large in gifts/favors to get her attention enough to finally entertain the idea of an order from this random grebber with no real benefit to her daily duties.

And if having to put in a wealth of social work to get a sword that's 1% better than something Ivan Indy can make is too much time/annoyance/money for Gary to invest, then that 1% loss in quality is what he'll need to endure.

Having once played a merchant for a GMH, it was a ton of fun outside of the vending machine antics. It was especially annoying when a few people who had once played in the GMH knew the gear, and would bring their Bynners in going 'I want a sword, but it has to look EXACTLY like this item that this character has likely never seen before, gimme gimme gimme!'

My thought was, "Wait a minute, I'm a freakin' Salarri House merchant, not a bazaar vendor, why am I having to put up with this constant nagging, threats, and being told how to do my job from random nobodies?"

So I get the idea of moving GMH merchants away from being vending machines, but I hate that it put so much of the 'cool stuff' that should be very much earned by more than spamming 'sid activities and randomly waying a GMH merchant you've never met and going 'gimme, it's mine'. It's now just 'spam for a bit, and now go buy it from an infinite stock'.

I feel like there's a mix of removing the roleplay from getting the cool stuff, cutting out any social engagement for it.

I wouldn't even make the quality a factor in it. One of my favorite games to play, Guild Wars 2 did a wonderful job of making end game stats even across the board, and any changes in that are massive investments, or just an appearance thing. I'd like to see that in Armageddon, in a sense. Having the best gear could be an ugly obsidian blade that's equally as damaging as a gorgeous Ivory Salarr Excalibur, but no one's gonna ohh and ahh about the ugly blade, making the Ivory one a total rarity, and also something to work toward (if your character actually desires the glam - if not, then you're set).

This also could cut down on the 'need' to spam 'sid-making that some feel is necessary, allowing people to have reasonably good gear without worrying about needing the 'absolute best' to feel confident in a pvp scenario (which I, like others, feel is the need for that micro-managing of combat stats). It also opens an avenue for indy crafters to provide acceptable gear to people instead of fighting over slots inside of vendor inventories to make a living.

Then again, removing armor repair vendors, and introducing damage/wear to weapons (and adding weapon repair as a skill, or combining it with armor repair) would also open a floodgate for indy crafters.

Sorry for the wall of text, I really hope that went somewhere. XD