The Crafting Experience So Far

[HazelHomewrecker]

When Season 1 launched, there was a crafter hiccup concerning the markets and general playability, so now that it's been a month almost, I wanted to open a thread and discuss the current state of NPC markets, PC selling, and just the all-around feel for a crafter PC.

-> For the past several weeks, it has felt borderline impossible to sell to any NPC merchant in the Bazaar. There are a LOT more crafters than I originally thought/expected for launch, and some have died, some have stored, some have simply stopped playing altogether, so the competition has slimmed slightly, but the result is a handful of extremely active (now)skilled crafters completely dominating the NPC market area. I've logged in quite a few times recently to try and sell things, even after a weekly reset, and the markets are ALREADY flooded with 200 items a piece. It's kind of crazy.

-> PC to PC selling is fun, and in my personal experience, going great! If you know who to talk to, how to advertise, how to generally.. /do/ things, you're not going to have a problem finding someone who needs something. Problem is, everyone is still pretty broke, so 9/10 times you make half as much selling to a character than an NPC, if raw monetary gain is your goal (regardless of roleplay, but that's.. I'm not opening that can of worms, it's hostile). In that vein, crafters should be more empathetic toward struggling PCs who can't afford your 500 coin linen smock. Just because you can sell XYZ item to a market stall for 2000 coins, doesn't exactly mean that it's worth 2000 coins. Haggle is nasty.

-> The new and improved crafting system since the change to 'Analyze.' One of the best changes to come to the game since I started playing, only issue with it is that Fletchery crafts burn my eyes out. I would highly advise maybe going through the fletchery crafts staff-side and.. maybe trimming down the literal 500 different arrow types?

Anyone else playing a crafter with thoughts/ideas/notes/experiences to share on how their play is going?

[Big Red]

Thoughts:

• Analyze is great now. I see some people advising newbies to use the craft command on ingredients to find recipes... Get with the times! Analyze is the command to type.
• I think NPC shops buy too few low-quality goods and sell too many premium goods. I would like to see premium goods of all kinds rely more on the PC economy. NPCs buying more lower-tier goods would make starting as a PC much easier. There are simultaneously too many vendor-provided very good weapons floating around and too few vendors who will buy everyday sundries.
• The recent suggestion that tools should be more apparent was really good. A tool telling you what crafts it's for with the assess command would demystify things a lot. Tool confusion pops up a lot on the discord as a new player complaint.
• The lack of GMH crafting jobs turned out to be a bit of a myth. Salarr and Kurac are both hiring PCs whose main thing is crafting. I hope that no one who wants to merchant it up with those clans has given up on the basis of a false belief.
• I think there's room for some sort of automated crafting quest type system, where an NPC asks you to fill a contract for X of Y craft. This could be a way to deal with the shops-not-buying-cheap-stuff issue without recoding the shops.
• The people who seem to be making the most coin right now appear to be people who are importing materials from faraway or dangerous areas on behalf of the city crafters, and I think that is perfect and dope as hell. It is good that the present state of things is encouraging that.

[Dresan]

I've not played a crafter so I apologize in advance for the unsolicited response. However I want to share my week 1 experiences that may be relevant to the conversation as it pertains to crafters. My hope is that it is a bit useful.

My first character started in a location where a training dagger costs 700 coins. I thought that was the norm across the game, and I proceeded to make due with what my character could afford or acquire which was not much. Losing my starter weapon was heartbreaking.  My character used an average spear for most of their life, which they didn't buy but rather traded a crafter in exchange for some work. My character was hoping to save up for an above average one.  I didn't see a good weapon to much much longer and it seemed to disappear just as fast with an above average weapon in that location selling for almost 5k as well.

This made for a very interesting first experience where you valued what you could get, and finding a freaking good quality weapon would probably be grounds for celebrating. Working with crafters was important for not just survival but to actually be able to get stuff reasonably. Again, it wasn't that there was no stuff available, it was just working with crafters was a more ideal route than saving up thousands of coins for that above average weapon. Most of my character's stuff ended up being found or bought from crafters. I found it rather cool that the strongest out of the box warrior and assassin were probably the ones that could craft their own weapons.

Fast forward a week or so later, to find Allanak with the same dagger but only costing 70 coins, good quality weapons being the norm and very good being readily available as well.  It also seems the game may slowly be moving towards GMHs returning to their old roles of gear dispensers. This is mostly because outside of customs items, crafters hadn't been given easily identifiable items comparable to GHM stuff or to what you can find in Allanak stores. 

I am not saying that Allanak prices should be raised 10 times or that GMH should not hire crafters and sell goods, but in terms of quality, cost, utility and value buying from PC crafter should be the absolute ideal and preferred solution every single time. Shops shouldn't be selling high end stuff that is easily affordable by commoners, and GMHs should perhaps never go back to selling their own trademark stuff directly to common people again. Equally, I think the shop system needs to be tweaked so crafters maybe can survive comfortably, but still need to work with players to truly become successful.

I understand that the struggle is real for some players but the solution should be PC crafters, or use average stuff which should be the easily affordable and available norm. Players aren't entitled to the very best stuff. It really changes how the game plays when you stumble upon a random cave with an expensive item buried under a pile of bones or find someone who can make stuff you need. 

[Agent_137]

As a non crafter I'm enjoying having a crafter or two I know always online when I'm online and being able to easily trade materials and coin for goodies. I still obsessively check shops but haven't bought from them since like day 1 of my PC

[Riev]

I've logged in quite a few times recently to try and sell things, even after a weekly reset, and the markets are ALREADY flooded with 200 items a piece. It's kind of crazy.

Reminder. Weekly resets and crashes no longer clear out NPC inventories. They persist.


My experience is that things have calmed down a bit, but there IS that decision of "do I sell cheap to a PC for interaction, or to the NPCs because I can get that price". If the other PC were to go to the NPC, they're still likely paying as much as you're selling with your haggle, but that shouldn't be the point.

I still feel there are characters that engage in the mining job loop to earn their coins, and then would rather just go to an Emporium and buy their quality gear that way. Its valid, but if the difference in quality is significant and I can just go mine glass for a day, -I- feel its worth it to get the quality over the PC to PC trade.

Armor trade is an odd thing, because the prices are inflated, but there have been a lot of "just use this shit we got on the RPT until you can afford Salarr stuff". It can feel bad when people don't want even the basic armor, because why not just save up for a couple days. See previous point.

Can we get an "analyze <item> <-skill> where if you put -fletchery then it will show all crafts NOT in the fletchery category? That might help the eyebleed as well.

I always like being a crafter. The first few weeks were rough, because starting crafters is hard to break even. There are still a few things that are maxed out, and occasional NPCs that have run out of coin. I feel for the ones with Warehouses that need to make <x> amount of lose their lease, because it only takes one person to spam the markets and you're out of luck.

[Hulrouk]

As a GMH staff member, I would love to make the push towards a stronger pc-to-pc economy.  I actually find Dresan's example...really really ideal, where gear upgrades are valuable and treasured, and part of the journey, rather than a checkbox that needs to be done before your journey can begin.

I do not have any proposed solutions.  Just wanted to comment and let people know I was reading the feedback thread.

[dumbstruck]

As a GMH staff member, I would love to make the push towards a stronger pc-to-pc economy.  I actually find Dresan's example...really really ideal, where gear upgrades are valuable and treasured, and part of the journey, rather than a checkbox that needs to be done before your journey can begin.

I do not have any proposed solutions.  Just wanted to comment and let people know I was reading the feedback thread.

Okay. Former ST over a decade ago now, longtime Hostess player for Kurac. May I suggest that entertainers and Hostess/Hosts be empowered to sell certain goods. Like (outside of Allanak, spice, Inside Allanak Spice candies cakes and cookies), Kruth decks and custom Kruth decks (house variation but maybe a new design at some point in Collab w/house, idk, dice, smoking accessories, darts too maybe if their venue has a dartboard). You know, the general type of stuff you'd sell in a bar as an entertainer and likely trade in outside of performances or perhaps in tandem with them. IDK. Also food and drink. Rolling papers.

[helix]

The tl;dr of this post: Incentivize people to buy from crafters - any crafter - rather than just GMH crafters. Remove easy-access to high-end gear from NPC vendors.

Couple things: I so very rarely play crafters, because I have a different playstyle. My suggestions are based mostly on my experience playing Eve Online and interacting with the economic system there.

I would offer:

• Just reduce the price you're willing to pay for an item based on how many you have rather than having vendors say they have 'too many' of something. The law of supply and demand says that the price of a good is based on its supply.
• Remove the monopolies the merchant Houses have on the best goods.
• Remove the most high-end goods from NPC vendor inventories or limit their availability to one or two per RL week.
• Increase the quality of player-crafted gear by one step above merchant-purchased gear of a similar type.
• Remove the armor repair vendors.

My opinions on this subject could be considered radical but... Because GMH gear is simply better and also readily available, there's no real reason to use anything else. Yet there are something like 6 classes dedicated (more or less) to crafting things, not all players of whom will end up in a GMH house. I think Riev put it pretty well, so I'm just gonna quote him:

I still feel there are characters that engage in the mining job loop to earn their coins, and then would rather just go to an Emporium and buy their quality gear that way. Its valid, but if the difference in quality is significant and I can just go mine glass for a day, -I- feel its worth it to get the quality over the PC to PC trade.

I certainly feel exactly the same way, and I think this is the largest issue with Arm's crafting system. I can't remember the last time I bought something off a PC merchant that wasn't a flavor item (like a necklace or a ring or something). Making the above changes means:

• Characters will always be able to sell stuff. They won't always make a lot of money doing it, and they may be incentivized to sell to PC crafters directly, who benefit from a lower cost of goods.
• The monopolies the GMH houses have means that no one wants non-GMH gear - GMH gear is simply better. That gear is either Imm-loaded, in a merchant NPC's inventory, or crafted by maybe one or two people. That poses a real challenge to the six or so classes that are dedicated to crafting.
• Removing the high-end goods increases their scarcity, and also makes it to where the 'wait for it' player simply can't wait that long. It'd be better for them to interact with a player (or buy something that's player-made from a shop), get something that's good, then maybe wait for the high-end stuff to be refreshed in the inventory.
• Incentivize players to get player-created gear, rather than loaded or NPC merchant inventory, facilitating both an economy as well as PC-to-PC interactions.
• Removing the armor repair vendors puts a much-needed item sink into the game. Right now, armor can be repaired to pristine state with a low-cost, low wait-time method that has little to no downside. Removing that option means that armor wears out and must be replaced, or repaired by a PC.

I'll be the first person to say that my opinion is both radical and drastic, and also a metric ton of work for staff, LOL. But I do think that these changes would have, overall, a really positive experience on the average crafter's in-game experience, interactions, and sustainability. I do think that having weapons degrade over time would be beneficial as well, but... that's a whole new section of code, and that's probably a really big thing to do.

[Dresan]

I think some more effort needs to be made to ensure crafters are the ideal choice between NPC stores and GMHs. While some bigger projects like gear durability or a quality system for armor are needed, other small things can be done now to begin setting the right foundation.

1. Stores should only buy and sell cheaper items. Weapons should be above average only. Armor should be within a certain cost range for now without many frills. Cheap and easily affordable should be the themes for all stores.

2. Stores should continue to sell things players cannot make. However, over time PC crafting should be improved to cover these needs.

3. Within reason, certain products can still appear in shops from time to time and be sold with limits, randomness and higher cost. I like how some players have found camo boots in certain location but i go there and only find a skirt.

4. I like the idea of automated jobs. Like with tailors in redstorm, more of these should exist for different crafters types to live comfortable but not successfully. Jobs like jewlery maker and stone crafter could genrating more coins from these jobs than more in demand crafter roles like weapon makers .

5. GMHs should only be dealing with goods they own crafters can make and be helping them create custom stuff. The role is an employed crafter vs indie crafter, and employed crafter should probably be working on other things then just crafting. GMHs should no longer be selling its trademark goods directly to commoners. Fancy goods stores should increase prices to the four figure ranges.

5. In most circumstances, NPC gear should not be worth using or be cheap stuff at best to avoid farming tactics.

Ultimately shops should not be the source of income they are today, with automated jobs having more of a role. If there are no pc crafters, or you didn't choose a crafter subguild or you don't have large amounts of coin then you should settle for what you can find and afford.

[Kavrick]

It's not great that GMH vendors around the world will sell high quality gear at unlimited stock honestly. Not currently playing a crafter but I basically geared myself out with the best quality gear by week 2 of playing without ever buying a single piece of gear from a PC.

The salarri is trying, I do respect it, but he's only available if you're willing to stay up until something like 2am as a European. I don't think I've seen Kurac since I've started playing but that also might just be because of time zone stuff, a shame either way.

You can certainly make money as a crafter, things have calmed down after the initial rush on people selling to vendors. I do think the whole thing where vendors can target unlimitedly sold items for their random "passer by" selling stops happening so they empty their stocks quicker. I also just generally think a push for more PC to PC sales would be healthier for the game. I wish I could give details but there are honestly some ludicrous items you can buy straight from vendors currently in the game with unlimited stock.

[Usiku]

Not currently playing a crafter but I basically geared myself out with the best quality gear by week 2 of playing without ever buying a single piece of gear from a PC.

I'd be interested to know, privately, how you managed to make enough money to buy that much gear from the NPC vendors in that short of a time. They were designed so that the cost should be prohibitive of that behaviour and that interacting with PC merchants and vendors would be the only affordable option for most people, while wealthier PCs would be able to get something they REALLY wanted from an NPC if they were totally unable to find a PC and were able to pay a ridiculous mark up. If that is not the case then I can review the mark ups on the NPCs.

[Dresan]

One last important detail I wanted to add, after 50 to 100 IC years, the commonly used weapons and armorsets from kurac and salarr, like the camo gear and products or the ebon raptor sets, etc should have been transition to indie PC crafters all together.

These clans are playing with metal and amazing quality custom gear beyond what pc can make already for people that the regular commoner don't often interact with. They are fresh and innovative with a lot of staff support to enforce that. They can afford to lose some of the commonly desired gear to indie master level PC crafters at this point.

[dunecrawler]

For me to buy from PC crafters, it needs to be fairly easy to do so. I bought a whole bunch of items from one PC this season, but only because he was advertising and had things available.

But other than that? I don't know who you are. I haven't seen anyone trying to sell stuff. I remember a single posting on the IG boards from someone selling armor and weapons, but they can't be the only PC who has things to sell.

If I have the choice to spend RL days getting the name of a crafter, then chasing them down, then waiting until they actually make me a 'good' quality sword, I'll probably just go and buy that 'good' quality sword from an NPC instead. Even if I'm broke and have to spend all the coin I have.

'Very good' weapons still seem to be rare, so maybe that's another niche for crafters to fill?

[Dresan]

If I have the choice to spend RL days getting the name of a crafter, then chasing them down, then waiting until they actually make me a 'good' quality sword, I'll probably just go and buy that 'good' quality sword from an NPC instead. Even if I'm broke and have to spend all the coin I have.

Change this to above average and i would see no problem with this approach.

I dont think good or very good weapon and gear should be sold in shops. At the very least prices for good weapons should be what very good is today and very good weapons disappears all together from stores.

Average weapons and simple gear should be more the norm unless you play a crafter.

[rinthrat]

If I have the choice to spend RL days getting the name of a crafter, then chasing them down, then waiting until they actually make me a 'good' quality sword, I'll probably just go and buy that 'good' quality sword from an NPC instead. Even if I'm broke and have to spend all the coin I have.

Change this to above average and i would see no problem with this approach.

I dont think good or very good weapon and gear should be sold in shops. At the very least prices for good weapons should be what very good is today and very good weapons disappears all together from stores.

Average weapons and simple gear should be more the norm unless you play a crafter.

Most of these are in the shop because a PC sold them to the shop.

[Dresan]

Most of these are in the shop because a PC sold them to the shop.

Stores should not be buying or sell these good+ weapons or even gear valued after a certain price point. Its a two way deal, if people cannot buy from stores, crafter cannot sell. People need each other, or will need to make stuff themselves or settle for the average stuff they can find. Automated crafter jobs like the one in RedStorm for tailors should ensure crafters can live comfortably, but not successfully. We would move away from relying on shops for boon or bust profits, solving a few problems we see with shops today, while encouraging PC interaction. This would encourage a player economy, not a NPC shop based one. Players are not entitled to the best stuff in the game.

[Usiku]

We simply do not have enough players for a reliable, player driven economy. This would leave a lot of players entirely out in the cold.

[Tailong]

Most of these are in the shop because a PC sold them to the shop.

Stores should not be buying or sell these good+ weapons or even gear valued after a certain price point. Its a two way deal, if people cannot buy from stores, crafter cannot sell. People need each other, or will need to make stuff themselves or settle for the average stuff they can find. Automated crafter jobs like the one in RedStorm for tailors should ensure crafters can live comfortably, but not successfully. We would move away from relying on shops for boon or bust profits, solving a few problems we see with shops today, while encouraging PC interaction. This would encourage a player economy, not a NPC shop based one. Players are not entitled to the best stuff in the game.

There are players too that do not want to wait weeks, months for PC crafters to get the materials to make certain items. Some materials, it's not possible to get without considerable expense, bahamet, meks, some silt horrors, not to mention ankheg. There simply isn't a way to support this. I'll go to shops first personally, out of just sheer convenience. 

[Dresan]

We simply do not have enough players for a reliable, player driven economy. This would leave a lot of players entirely out in the cold.

I disagree.

It has nothing to do with the number of players. Even if we had only 10 to 20 players I would advocate the same thing, because with those numbers playing a crafter you'd be totally rich from selling to empty shops and never need to deal with people either.

Its ultimately about player choice. There is nothing wrong with using the average level stuff that would be sold in shops. If you feel you need the best weapons, play a weapon crafter, if you feel the need for the best gear, play armor crafter. Otherwise if you choose something like enforcer/bandit, raider/thief, raider/slipknife raider/magick subguild there should be some downside which might include harder to generate income and finding someone to sell you your own gear.

You are not withholding or preventing players from acquiring this stuff, or even making it hard, you are just making people choose between different RP experiences which is extremely important in a permadeath game. 

[Usiku]

I disagree. It would simply be a case of sheer luck combined with how close someone can play to peak as to whether or not certain items were ever available to them via PC. As a primarily off-peak player of 20 years, I am not going to dismiss that experience. No player should be relegated to worse gear than others because they simply do not have overlapping play times with whoever the crafters of good gear happen to be. The NPCs serve as the bridge between the play time demographics.

[Bogre]

We simply do not have enough players for a reliable, player driven economy. This would leave a lot of players entirely out in the cold.

ARPI did totally fine with a nearly complete player economy.

I think Arm would do fine with basic and sundry things available from shops, even slightly better than basic stuff, with PCs supplying the rest.

Most of these are in the shop because a PC sold them to the shop.

Stores should not be buying or sell these good+ weapons or even gear valued after a certain price point. Its a two way deal, if people cannot buy from stores, crafter cannot sell. People need each other, or will need to make stuff themselves or settle for the average stuff they can find. Automated crafter jobs like the one in RedStorm for tailors should ensure crafters can live comfortably, but not successfully. We would move away from relying on shops for boon or bust profits, solving a few problems we see with shops today, while encouraging PC interaction. This would encourage a player economy, not a NPC shop based one. Players are not entitled to the best stuff in the game.

There are players too that do not want to wait weeks, months for PC crafters to get the materials to make certain items. Some materials, it's not possible to get without considerable expense, bahamet, meks, some silt horrors, not to mention ankheg. There simply isn't a way to support this. I'll go to shops first personally, out of just sheer convenience.

This is kind of the issue? Instant gratification for mek/horror stuff when those things should be rare. And then it gives reasons for players to group up and do things together (like get rare mats) and work towards progress. When convenience means sidestepping PCs there is a problem.

Being able to just grind coins for whatever you want is not really a good long term game loop. There's a lot more in depth play required if you have to work with others to achieve your goals. Otherwise everyone's playing solo RPG to kit out their character.

[Usiku]

If there are specific items/ranges that might provide better RP opportunity (like hunts etc) if they are made less available, then this is something we can look at. But we also do not want to go back to a vending machine scenario for GMH players where they are catching a lot of pressure and unpleasantness because they can't keep up with IG demand. It's a hard balance, but we also want the GMH experience to be a positive one. Season Zero we could not fill GMH roles because most players willing to try those roles had had such an awful time they simply did not want to do it again, and those experiences were widely shared and agreed upon enough that most new players didn't want to give it a go either. We have tried very hard to radically change the GMH experience, so I don't just want to walk that back.

[Dresan]

I disagree. It would simply be a case of sheer luck combined with how close someone can play to peak as to whether or not certain items were ever available to them via PC. As a primarily off-peak player of 20 years, I am not going to dismiss that experience. No player should be relegated to worse gear than others because they simply do not have overlapping play times with whoever the crafters of good gear happen to be. The NPCs serve as the bridge between the play time demographics.

As someone who also hangs around offpeak for more years than I care to admit, again we'll just have to disagree here.

I don't believe you need the 'best' stuff to have fun, rather just any player interaction at those times is essential. Again, you can always choose to make your own custom stuff if you feel its that important to your enjoyment or really want to be that PK machine. Heck the above average stuff was what a lot of people used before quality was implemented and revealed.

There is also one more feature that this game has that allows players to have access to food, gear, coins, weapon, protection, training, and everything the game can offer on a silver platter. And that's clans.  Though off-peak and clans is probably another topic.

Anyways, while I disagree its ultimately not my call and I've shared my two sids.

[Roon]

Again, you can always choose to make your own custom stuff if you feel its that important to your enjoyment or really want to be that PK machine.

For the most part, players must choose between playing a character that can make great equipment or a character that benefits from great equipment. They're mostly mutually exclusive. There's a little bit of potential overlap in that you can choose something like the weaponcrafter subclass which lets you custom-craft very good weapons. That's about it, and then in terms of your own character's coded benefits, you effectively sacrifice your subclass in return for a very good weapon, which then takes three months of successive CC submissions to get to. And we now have a shop that sells comparable weapons in unlimited supply. By and large, I would say that the idea of custom-crafting equipment for yourself to use is not really valid or applicable to the realities of the game.

The apparent intention is for crafters, who generally don't need weapons and armor, to make those things for combat folks, who generally can't make the good stuff themselves. The problem is that the sheer chronological hurdle of custom-crafting high-quality weapons is so burdensome that it's unappealing to undertake for players who don't actually get anything out of it themselves except the money they might make selling them (and the best weapons are apparently one-off unique items, so how much are you really getting out of that four-month project for a single amazing weapon).

You spend your first CC ticket to make an above average weapon. Then you spend your next to progress to good. Then the third one for very good. That's three months just to make a weapon comparable to what can be bought from the fancy Salarr shop. If your class gets high mastery in the skill, you can spend a fourth CC making one single amazing weapon (not repeatedly craftable) of that kind. It's a hell of a lot of investment for something that your own character probably doesn't have any use for. If I was playing a full-fledged crafter, I would spend my CCs on more interesting things than that. I wouldn't cash in my CCs for the next 3-4 months to make weapons for other people. It's kind of a raw deal. Why would people do this?

[Tailong]

We simply do not have enough players for a reliable, player driven economy. This would leave a lot of players entirely out in the cold.

ARPI did totally fine with a nearly complete player economy.

I think Arm would do fine with basic and sundry things available from shops, even slightly better than basic stuff, with PCs supplying the rest.

Most of these are in the shop because a PC sold them to the shop.

Stores should not be buying or sell these good+ weapons or even gear valued after a certain price point. Its a two way deal, if people cannot buy from stores, crafter cannot sell. People need each other, or will need to make stuff themselves or settle for the average stuff they can find. Automated crafter jobs like the one in RedStorm for tailors should ensure crafters can live comfortably, but not successfully. We would move away from relying on shops for boon or bust profits, solving a few problems we see with shops today, while encouraging PC interaction. This would encourage a player economy, not a NPC shop based one. Players are not entitled to the best stuff in the game.

There are players too that do not want to wait weeks, months for PC crafters to get the materials to make certain items. Some materials, it's not possible to get without considerable expense, bahamet, meks, some silt horrors, not to mention ankheg. There simply isn't a way to support this. I'll go to shops first personally, out of just sheer convenience.

This is kind of the issue? Instant gratification for mek/horror stuff when those things should be rare. And then it gives reasons for players to group up and do things together (like get rare mats) and work towards progress. When convenience means sidestepping PCs there is a problem.

Being able to just grind coins for whatever you want is not really a good long term game loop. There's a lot more in depth play required if you have to work with others to achieve your goals. Otherwise everyone's playing solo RPG to kit out their character.

But you are right, I'd rather actually roleplay than worry about gear.  Hence my post. 

But I know of instances where PC master crafters had to put orders on hold for literally in game years because they can't get rarer materials.

I see exactly where Usiku is coming from, and agree 100% that turning over our economy to players just isn't worth it. 

[Agent_137]

The problem is that the sheer chronological hurdle...

You spend your first CC ticket to make an above average weapon. Then you spend your next to progress to good. Then the third one for very good. That's three months just to make a weapon comparable to what can be bought from the fancy Salarr shop. If your class gets high mastery in the skill, you can spend a fourth CC making one single amazing weapon (not repeatedly craftable) of that kind. It's a hell of a lot of investment for something that your own character probably doesn't have any use for. If I was playing a full-fledged crafter, I would spend my CCs on more interesting things than that. I wouldn't cash in my CCs for the next 3-4 months to make weapons for other people. It's kind of a raw deal. Why would people do this?

1. Your timeline isn't quite right. For indie it's above average, good, and very good.  For GMH it's good, very good, and a one-off amazing. And then you can churn out very good recipes every month after within that broad weapon type, and up to 4 amazings a year if you're gmh/tribe-special. It's never 4 months. https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58907.0.html

2. I think crafters not wanting to CC weapons is fine and great... they should craft what interests them.  You phrase it like a problem.  Is it?

[Dresan]

Ultimately, you don't really need the very best or even decent weapons/gear to eventually kill or defend from anything you find on the road to Luirs or even really most places.

What we are effectively talking about at this point is PK.

I do not see the problem with players needing to put more effort or need some luck acquiring the absolute best stuff required to PKing people as effectively as possible. If the argument is that its hard for off-peak players to acquire really good weapons and gear, which again are only really needed to effectively Pk, the same could be said about a lot of things such as acquiring and deploying the very best poisons.

Its a choice, there should be meaningful trade offs providing different experiences with each character.

[Roon]

2. I think crafters not wanting to CC weapons is fine and great... they should craft what interests them.  You phrase it like a problem.  Is it?

I was responding to someone who said the solution is to just CC your own equipment. That's not something that the game really facilitates in any worthwhile manner.

[Bogre]

But you are right, I'd rather actually roleplay than worry about gear.  Hence my post. 

But I know of instances where PC master crafters had to put orders on hold for literally in game years because they can't get rarer materials.
 

I mean- I don't see the problem with this. If the effort isn't extended to get rarer materials why should people get rare material based stuff ?

Why can't you buy methelinoc poison or metal daggers or magical amulets? Shouldn't we not be on hold for literal in game years to wait on getting that stuff ?

[Kavrick]

We simply do not have enough players for a reliable, player driven economy. This would leave a lot of players entirely out in the cold.

I completely disagree. I have seen games with a smaller player count that still have a player driven economy. The amount of people who not only play full-guild crafters, but subguild crafters would fill the gap. The issue is that Armageddon doesn't facilitate player-to-player trading and instead makes crafters largely redundant by making it so the game works fine without any crafters. For a couple of examples on ways you could facilitate player-to-player trading better.

1. Do some sort of story event that reintroduces writing into the world. I honestly don't think this would be a big deal, especially if you're going to retcon city-elves to be far more friendly to humans. Having writing would mean that you could more easily place orders, keep track of things and generally communicate with offline players or players in a different timezone as you by the use of writing.

2. Add a system where players can rent out a stall in the Bazaar. We have an entire part of allanak dedicated to peddling wares, seeing it be more player run rather than npc-run would be great. If you made it so there were set stalls such as armor, weapons, clothing, etc etc that could be bought by pcs to use to sell to players indirectly, this would solve a lot of the issues of players not buying from crafters because it's hard to directly get a hold of them consistently.

And these are just two rather easy ways to implement systems to encourage more player-to-player economy interaction. You're never going to have a player economy while shops hold unlimited stock of items.

I was responding to someone who said the solution is to just CC your own equipment. That's not something that the game really facilitates in any worthwhile manner.

This is something I've been frustrated for for a while now. I understand that increased CCs means a bigger workload on staff, but other RPIs (with basically the same standards of writing as armageddon) have 'free' gear customization and ccing without any issue so I don't really see the point that tends to come up about quality control being necessary being valid. It's just one of those weird things, if staff said 'yeah this would be cool but we don't have the free time to code in a customization system or a more automated CC system right now', I'd totally consider that valid and a reasonable reasponse.

Ultimately, you don't really need the very best or even decent weapons/gear to eventually kill or defend from anything you find on the road to Luirs or even really most places.

What we are effectively talking about at this point is PK.

This is an RPG game with lots of pve and hitting creatures with bone swords. In most RPG games, getting better equipment and progressing you character's power is part of the fun. I don't do any sort of PvP and I enjoy having good gear.

[Riev]

I just wanted to point out that a lot of the problem being spoken about is weapon crafting, and only because the introduction of "quality" weapon crafting has players focusing on "having the best possible weapons".

Having to wait a RL month while someone makes a decent weapon for you should be the norm, but in that month you can ABSOLUTELY go out and glass mine and afford a full Salarri kit from the infinite-shop. Probably of higher quality than that one crafter can make.

The rest of the crafting experience revolves around this, because the player culture is "I want the best codedly possible items for my character, because anything less is a nerf". There is simply no reason to buy a "middle tier" weapon or armor, when you can wait a week and have a top tier.

Also, the other crafts ... leatherworking. Woodworking. Clothworking. Most of them don't provide "coded bonuses" so it becomes difficult for someone specializing in those to feel worthwhile. Your well-crafted erdlu statue doesn't give me fails on my weapon skill, so why should I buy it?



I think a lot of it comes down to the culture of PCs needing to have "the best" combined with staff's workaround to Vendor PCs being "providing the best in unlimited quantities". Suggestion? Keep the emporium items, but stop making them infinite. Load a few "interesting" items at a time, in limited quantities, and refresh it once a month. Especially with GMH's having the crafting wings open again, this takes SOME pressure off them, and still opens up a 'limited' supply of top tier items.

[Krath]

I don't think it is as much a sid and glass mining issue as it is an availability issue. The best items should be rare and sold at an ultra premium. I do think the best items should only be available via house agent/merchant.

[Kavrick]

I don't think it is as much a sid and glass mining issue as it is an availability issue. The best items should be rare and sold at an ultra premium. I do think the best items should only be available via house agent/merchant.

I agree, I think nerfing how much coin people get is just gonna annoy people and dissuade people from spending money on more flavor/rp things. Getting good+ quality gear and clanned armor should be something you have to go through a GMH/Tribe/Indie crafter to get.

[Classclown]

Shops shouldn't be selling high end stuff that is easily affordable by commoners, and GMHs should perhaps never go back to selling their own trademark stuff directly to common people again.

I agree the more expensive GMH items should be sold through GMH merchants and I think shops should buy more lower end items, but only newly made, not resold. It would be cool if a used item immediately got a used tag that would lower the resale and buy price for an item that is being sold back to a shop or to an indie shop after being used.

That said, being an independent crafter is supposed to be more challenging than working for a GMH. You can't possibly expect an indie merchant/crafter experience to be = to a GMH merchant/crafter. There is a tradeoff for that independence.

 GMH's have compounds with water access and security, and many employees and the highest quality designs accumulated over centuries, even their lower end items would be considered better quality than an independent crafter's of the same type. They also pay attention to quickly rising independents encroaching on their territory.

[Classclown]

I would like the GMHs to hire full crafters without ambiguity about roles.

[Kavrick]

I would like the GMHs to hire full crafters without ambiguity about roles.

Same. I know that one of the complaints was about the whole 'vending machine' thing, but all that really changed was the option for that role was taken away without giving crafters a new role to replace it. Personally, I enjoy being both a crafter and a hunter in a GMH, I like being apart of a team to meet the demands of other players, it's satisfying for me and gives me a sense of purpose and progression for my characters.

Edit: Just putting in a quick edit here, I'm happy that staff have moved to give GMH players another option for being in a GMH with the new divisions. I just wanted to clarify that so I'm acknowledging good stuff and stuff I want to critique, don't want to seem like I'm just bitching.

[Classclown]

I also don't mind it, but restricting the GMH designs kind of takes away any added bonus to crafting for the GMH while also hunting.

[Dresan]

This is an RPG game with lots of pve and hitting creatures with bone swords. In most RPG games, getting better equipment and progressing you character's power is part of the fun. I don't do any sort of PvP and I enjoy having good gear.

Performing your choice of coin making activities for X  number of hours and then going to GMH merchant or shop to buy the best available gear/very good weapon is not meaningful progression. Performing the same check box routine with every character gets old quickly and this particular routine is one that everyone's been performing for the last couple of decades.

Unpredictability is necessary to avoid stagnant repetition.  The game doesn't seem to understand human nature very well either, if you wiggle a carrot called good gear in front of people, many of them will just continue to perform X hours of mundane coin making activities until they earn it, and call the game boring and tedious the entire time. The game shoots itself in the foot by offer everything it can upfront.

Instead the game should stick to providing a fair and transparent choice to players, you want good weapons/gear you know what to pick. However, I do like PC stall idea.

Finally, I have no concerns with GMH hiring crafters, but they should be only be selling the things they can make, not GHM trademark stuff. This way they aren't completely outcompeting indie crafters who sometimes have an uphill struggle finding hunters that say alive and maintaining warehouses. If you want GHM crafters to make camo gear, ebon raptor armor or special weapon, allow all crafter to make it. Otherwise you risk GMHs making indie crafter obsolete before burning themselves out by being the only gear dispensers in town ..but this too is an old routine at this point.

[Gaare]

I have been playing a full indy crafter almost from start of the season. Also, played a few .. in last whatever years. This was by far my most enjoyable experience. There are some excellent ideas on this post. I'll just throw my own.

- "Analyze" changed everything. Seriously. I know just a couple of other ARM players RL, and did not know many recipes other then my PCs discovered during play. Even with them,  I did not know how to RP knowing them. This is an amazing change.

- Number of active online PCs, changes the experience drasticly. Especially at the beginning of the season when playerbase was lacking in coin, it was extremely fun. Many customers and suppliers. My PC rarely went to a shop for a material.

- When playerbase begins to have large amount of coin, as PC crafter even with decent number of connections, it's really hard to craft high tier armor and weapon. Of course with clan restirictions, it takes some time for an indep crafter to offer one. So other PCs buy from specialist shops. That's right thing to do ICly. If those rare items would be very limited, I believe it would really improve the experience. So, if a PC would want best tier items, they would have to find an indy/GMH crafter and do a "quest" for it.

- Offering PCs to sell their products from directly through an indy shop will also change the experience. I guess that's hard to code, but this will open interesting competion. It will be fun for both GMH and Indy crafters.

Thank you everybody for the effort they put into the game. As an off-time player I can't believe number of PCs active. You rock!

[Tailong]

This is an RPG game with lots of pve and hitting creatures with bone swords. In most RPG games, getting better equipment and progressing you character's power is part of the fun. I don't do any sort of PvP and I enjoy having good gear.

Performing your choice of coin making activities for X  number of hours and then going to GMH merchant or shop to buy the best available gear/very good weapon is not meaningful progression. Performing the same check box routine with every character gets old quickly and this particular routine is one that everyone's been performing for the last couple of decades.

Maybe it is for them? Maybe that is meaningful progression for a lot of people. Are we gatekeeping what it means to have 'meaningful progression'? Let people play the way they want, it doesn't affect anyone but them.

[Dresan]

Maybe it is for them? Maybe that is meaningful progression for a lot of people. Are we gatekeeping what it means to have 'meaningful progression'? Let people play the way they want, it doesn't affect anyone but them.

Yes, actually do in many cases. It is kind the point of playing a balanced game. Otherwise people could be warrior/defilers with metal gear and weapons skills/spells at max at the point of creation. Or let drunk/heavy fighting still be a thing.

[Tailong]

Maybe it is for them? Maybe that is meaningful progression for a lot of people. Are we gatekeeping what it means to have 'meaningful progression'? Let people play the way they want, it doesn't affect anyone but them.

Yes, actually do in many cases. It is kind the point of playing a balanced game. Otherwise people could be warrior/defilers with metal gear at creation.

That has nothing to do with me, or anyone else, grebbing and buying gear from the shops, instead of PCs. I feel a vocal minority is repeating the same point to make gear progression harder.

Edited for tone, please let's not make this heated. Thank you
-Zealus

[Bogre]

I just wanted to point out that a lot of the problem being spoken about is weapon crafting, and only because the introduction of "quality" weapon crafting has players focusing on "having the best possible weapons".

Having to wait a RL month while someone makes a decent weapon for you should be the norm, but in that month you can ABSOLUTELY go out and glass mine and afford a full Salarri kit from the infinite-shop. Probably of higher quality than that one crafter can make.

The rest of the crafting experience revolves around this, because the player culture is "I want the best codedly possible items for my character, because anything less is a nerf". There is simply no reason to buy a "middle tier" weapon or armor, when you can wait a week and have a top tier.

Also, the other crafts ... leatherworking. Woodworking. Clothworking. Most of them don't provide "coded bonuses" so it becomes difficult for someone specializing in those to feel worthwhile. Your well-crafted erdlu statue doesn't give me fails on my weapon skill, so why should I buy it?



I think a lot of it comes down to the culture of PCs needing to have "the best" combined with staff's workaround to Vendor PCs being "providing the best in unlimited quantities". Suggestion? Keep the emporium items, but stop making them infinite. Load a few "interesting" items at a time, in limited quantities, and refresh it once a month. Especially with GMH's having the crafting wings open again, this takes SOME pressure off them, and still opens up a 'limited' supply of top tier items.

I would like the GMHs to hire full crafters without ambiguity about roles.

Same. I know that one of the complaints was about the whole 'vending machine' thing, but all that really changed was the option for that role was taken away without giving crafters a new role to replace it. Personally, I enjoy being both a crafter and a hunter in a GMH, I like being apart of a team to meet the demands of other players, it's satisfying for me and gives me a sense of purpose and progression for my characters.

I think you can easily break them from being vending machines by having them not take orders. The merchants can decide monthly or whatever what they want to sell, and if they're successful, sell next month.

This 'templar wants an X and byn sarge wants a Y' - no, the Merchants should decide what they sell. It should be cart blanche noted to the playerbase that they can't just make orders through GMH PCs and expect them filled. They need to inquire and compete for the chance to -buy- the limited items. Give the GMH power.

Ideally it's not PCs->merchant PC->staff->merchant PC->PCs.

It's staff<->Merchant PC -> PCs.

[Agent_137]

I like borges idea a lot.

Also let gmh crafters sell their own crafts within some reasonable guidelines. Running every purchase through a merchant was a big contributor to vending machine feels. I gotta get my junior crafter buddy to break rules just to buy some boots off him with leather I brought him? Silly. Just give the house a cut of sid or something and thumbs up to the junior crafter for making a sale.

[Dresan]

....

You've made some assumptions I disagree with. This game is a RPI with permadeath elements, not a solo sandbox. The game nerfed the progression of hybrid magicker subclasses for a reason.

While gear/weapon has less impact in the efficiency of killing scrabs or chalton, it certainly has a more noticeable effect when you are in combat with other PCs. It also has a negative impact on this particular permadeath game when acquiring the very best gear is just a simple routine with every character.

Also let gmh crafters sell their own crafts within some reasonable guidelines.

GMH and Indie crafter should only be selling what the players can make. They both have different experiences in terms of gameplay, but there should be no difference in regard to crafted goods with exception of custom goods. Where one would make customs good for commoners and the other is working with metal and gems to produce products for the elite half the time. There is also an open war between Salarr and Kurac, both parties should be selling whatever they want without any concern for outdated trade boundaries.

GMH plus stalls should relieve concern of it being impossible to find a PC crafter, but if you still can't, then the average stuff stores would be available. Players are not entitled to the very best stuff in the game, unless you choose to craft it yourself.

That said, how individual clans run and generate fun for their members should probably be its own important thread. Its not fully what Agent was referring to but I appreciate the segue none the less.

[Tuannon]

I think at the crux is that a PC crafter or agent of said crafter just needs to send a quick request in to update their clan staff about sales made and so on. This lack of communications was a problem when Jal had a bunch of crafters, among others.

[Gimfalisette]

For me to buy from PC crafters, it needs to be fairly easy to do so. I bought a whole bunch of items from one PC this season, but only because he was advertising and had things available.

But other than that? I don't know who you are. I haven't seen anyone trying to sell stuff. I remember a single posting on the IG boards from someone selling armor and weapons, but they can't be the only PC who has things to sell.

If I have the choice to spend RL days getting the name of a crafter, then chasing them down, then waiting until they actually make me a 'good' quality sword, I'll probably just go and buy that 'good' quality sword from an NPC instead. Even if I'm broke and have to spend all the coin I have.

WHAT IF:

When you went to an NPC shop, you could see the names of the PCs who had made particular items that are for sale in that shop?

I agree that it's difficult to figure out which PCs are making what stuff. Especially when they're probably a full artisan class and haven't focused on one particular thing yet, so they're sort of making everything. But I'd love to look at an item in a shop, note the price they're asking and the name of the PC who made it, and then go find that PC to get a better price on it. And probably to buy more stuff, because they're making things that I like and want already.

Obviously this would be a code change.

[Riev]

In addition to my idea and Bogre's rework of it, I would like to re-propose something I've seen before.

That is... a place where PC crafters are "EXPECTED" to be to sell their things.

Whether thats the bazaar, or the Hawker's stand near the bazaar, or whatever. A place where you go with your display case and a sampling of what you can offer people. Let people come by, browse what you have, buy on the spot or ask if you can make something that Salarr sells, but for cheaper.

Instead of being like me, and sitting in an apartment or warehouse all day just churning out shit ... change the culture and occasionally be in "the space" where people expect to see you.

[Lips]

Or do the equivalent of the auctioneer in other MUDs by having a consignment store.  You give the item to an NPC to sell, he gives you money if and when it sells.  Multiple people can give items to this same NPC.

[Dune Bunny]

I feel the best stuff shouldn't just be available to everyone. The best stuff should be very rare, and when you see someone wearing it, your character might get a bit envious/angry/awestruck/etc.

Just because Gary Grebface can make 2000 'sid a trip doesn't mean he should be entitled to things that are one in a thousand. If it's sold in a shop, it's probably mass produced (as 'mass' as a world like Zalanthas can be). The quality difference in damage/redux for weapons and armor should be negligible enough as well, that not having the 'best' isn't a hindrance, it's just a nice addition to the PCs work investment.

This is where using indy crafter pcs to get unique things could come in. Getting something that notable should potentially only come through merchant channels with the related GMH agents, who would be sitting on some rather exceptional stock that you'll never see stocked in a shop. So Gary Grebface would need to either use Ivan Indy for a custom sword, who might be much more available that Amy Agent. Amy can likely get access to an overall better weapon than Ivan Indy, but WHY would Amy Agent just randomly decide to entertain a random Gary Grebface, as well as the 20-30 other obsidian miners like him? She's a GMH member, the 5k 'sid she'd make from Gary should be laughable, and maybe she'd be looked down on for putting stellar craftsmanship in the hands of a random dude that's gonna lose it to the belly of a Mek in a week or two, letting it potentially end up in the hands of that group of raiders that will be circling their argosy in a week?

This means Gary will need to convince Amy that HE is worth HER time, because those 'sids will be coming in regardless, from more reputable, socially acceptable avenues. Maybe Gary will need to grease her palms with a few large in gifts/favors to get her attention enough to finally entertain the idea of an order from this random grebber with no real benefit to her daily duties.

And if having to put in a wealth of social work to get a sword that's 1% better than something Ivan Indy can make is too much time/annoyance/money for Gary to invest, then that 1% loss in quality is what he'll need to endure.

Having once played a merchant for a GMH, it was a ton of fun outside of the vending machine antics. It was especially annoying when a few people who had once played in the GMH knew the gear, and would bring their Bynners in going 'I want a sword, but it has to look EXACTLY like this item that this character has likely never seen before, gimme gimme gimme!'

My thought was, "Wait a minute, I'm a freakin' Salarri House merchant, not a bazaar vendor, why am I having to put up with this constant nagging, threats, and being told how to do my job from random nobodies?"

So I get the idea of moving GMH merchants away from being vending machines, but I hate that it put so much of the 'cool stuff' that should be very much earned by more than spamming 'sid activities and randomly waying a GMH merchant you've never met and going 'gimme, it's mine'. It's now just 'spam for a bit, and now go buy it from an infinite stock'.

I feel like there's a mix of removing the roleplay from getting the cool stuff, cutting out any social engagement for it.

I wouldn't even make the quality a factor in it. One of my favorite games to play, Guild Wars 2 did a wonderful job of making end game stats even across the board, and any changes in that are massive investments, or just an appearance thing. I'd like to see that in Armageddon, in a sense. Having the best gear could be an ugly obsidian blade that's equally as damaging as a gorgeous Ivory Salarr Excalibur, but no one's gonna ohh and ahh about the ugly blade, making the Ivory one a total rarity, and also something to work toward (if your character actually desires the glam - if not, then you're set).

This also could cut down on the 'need' to spam 'sid-making that some feel is necessary, allowing people to have reasonably good gear without worrying about needing the 'absolute best' to feel confident in a pvp scenario (which I, like others, feel is the need for that micro-managing of combat stats). It also opens an avenue for indy crafters to provide acceptable gear to people instead of fighting over slots inside of vendor inventories to make a living.

Then again, removing armor repair vendors, and introducing damage/wear to weapons (and adding weapon repair as a skill, or combining it with armor repair) would also open a floodgate for indy crafters.

Sorry for the wall of text, I really hope that went somewhere. XD

[Tuannon]

I feel like 90% of the cool stuff from vendors should be sidegrades, it's really demoralizing to see everyone using the same knapsack and the same cuirass and what not.

In the past I was trying to figure out some kind of flag or whatever system so swords could be made by an NPC kind of similar to the custom clothing maker and just differentiate in basic stuff like colour. So something like 'order machete flint red scabbard' or whatever.

If you want a state of the art maximum schmicko ankheg shell machete with a tasseled scabbard, you ask a Salarri and interact with them. If you want a work sword for chopping up scrabs on Ocandra, you go to a vendor.

But then I discarded the idea as it would cause crippling bloat.

[Riev]

As a former Salarri, I am always for the ability to say "I don't know you and I don't care if you offer me ten large, I'm not selling to you."

The issue is that players get angry that they can't have the OP Sword they built their whole character around for some reason, so then they resort to threats and killing Salarris and being an overall bother because they couldn't get that +1 longsword.

There's nothing in the docs that I remember reading that said you HAVE to sell to people. You can choose who you sell to, and how much you want to charge.



As an aside: Indies may actually be LESS open for custom crafts, as most of them are likely trying to differentiate what they offer from the GMHs and need to wait a few months before there is an "opening". What I think indies are good for are cheap goods, because they don't have many employees. They don't have wagons, and argosies, and eighty tuns of water to fill a day.

[Dresan]

I believe sentiments on how people view and use gear will change when:

1. Durability gets implemented, 'Charlie' the very good sword will become for 'display purposes only' until its a life critical situation.
2. Mercy code gets buffed. Beating someone up and taking their valuable things should be more common than just a couple NPC scripts.

[Classclown]

The thing is, if you're a GMH crafter, you should just be churning out things your House makes and tossing them into a chest for the merchant to then sell. That's the end of your responsibilities. You finish and then go home. If you want to sell other stuff you can make, it should be allowed, as long as it's not the stuff your GMH specializes in and only uses materials you buy or collect. Indie crafters have to also be merchants, if they are soloing it, so it's different, but again, they shouldn't expect to have the same success as a merchant from a GMH. Their crafts aren't ever going to be better than the same sort that a GMH crafter can produce, because they don't have access to the training and facilities as a GMH crafter. Also, as an indie merchant/trader, you have to be your own pr/advertising guy too, where GMHs are already established names. If you cc things you know the GMHs don't make, unique looking items, people will buy from you. If you just try to sell the same generic stuff sold in shops, people will probably be less likely to buy it.

[Big Red]

As a former Salarri, I am always for the ability to say "I don't know you and I don't care if you offer me ten large, I'm not selling to you."

GMH merchants deffo have the agency to do this, but the fat commission from selling things that are 'ordered in' really incentivizes the opposite. I think the present state of affairs still does heavily encourage vending machine behavior.